Criminal Charges Against Trump

[Skeptic Ginger]

Some of these lawsuits against Rump are bound to get around to forcing foreclosures on some of his properties when the delays run out. And there are a couple of criminal charges in there.

Where Trump’s long list of legal challenges stand

That list goes on and on.

Quote:

... nine lawsuits related to the events of Jan. 6, 2021, and the 2020 presidential election.

That's in addition to:

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A criminal investigation from the Fulton County, Ga., district attorney’s office is examining whether Trump officials disrupted the 2020 election in the county.

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D.C. Attorney General Karl Racine (D) said his probe into those who incited Jan. 6 could result in charges against Trump.

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New York Attorney General Letitia James (D) is investigating whether Trump inflated property values for investors and deflated them in federal tax forms. ...

Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg (D) is continuing a similar probe into potential tax fraud and financial crimes. ...

The Westchester County, N.Y., district attorney’s office also launched an investigation in October into whether the Trump Organization misled officials about the property value of Trump National Golf Club Westchester.

Then there are the documents he took to Mar-a-Lago:

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The National Archives has asked the Department of Justice to investigate whether the former president mishandled classified documents.

Lock him up!

And more lawsuits:

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Mary Trump is suing her uncle for allegedly defrauding her from the family inheritance ...

E. Jean Carroll, a magazine writer who says Trump sexually assaulted her in the ’90s, is suing the former president for saying she fabricated her claims that he raped her. ...

And there is Cohen's home detention that Rump retaliated against:

Quote:

In Manhattan federal court, Cohen is suing Trump, the U.S. government and other officials for allegedly retaliating against him after writing a tell-all book about his time serving Trump in a legal capacity.

But wait, there's more:

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Six protesters are suing Trump, accusing his security guards of assaulting them outside Trump Tower during a 2015 protest.

And more:

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A class-action lawsuit first filed in 2018 alleges the Trump Organization used their business to scam investors into supporting false or worthless business opportunities.

And finally:

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In a lawsuit filed in the New York Supreme Court, tenants who lived in a building once owned by Trump’s father say the Trump family hiked rents by inflating prices for appliances.

I thought there was a lawsuit by students who were conned into taking the Rump University get rich quick in real estate course because they believed Rump himself would teach some/all of the classes. And some awful investments in a condo in Costa Rica went awry and the people who lost their money were suing Rump because he had put his name on the condo construction. IIRC the condos were never built.

[Fast Eddie B]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Some of these lawsuits against Rump are bound to get around to forcing foreclosures on some of his properties when the delays run out.

And yet, the delays never quite seem to run out. He’s found the soft underbelly of the American judicial system and managed to exploit it. Delay, delay, delay as a matter of course, usually successfully.

Maddeningly frustrating, but it is what it is and I suspect many of these charges will not be resolved before the grim reaper has his way. “This is the way Trump ends, not with a bang but a whimper.”

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

And yet, the delays never quite seem to run out. He’s found the soft underbelly of the American judicial system and managed to exploit it. Delay, delay, delay as a matter of course, usually successfully.

Maddeningly frustrating, but it is what it is and I suspect many of these charges will not be resolved before the grim reaper has his way. “This is the way Trump ends, not with a bang but a whimper.”

And yet ...

So what? I said the delays will eventually run out and they will. Rump may die first, that would be annoying. But the lawsuits will still be there cluttering up those kid's tax free inheritance.

[TheGoldcountry]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

And yet ...

So what? I said the delays will eventually run out and they will. Rump may die first, that would be annoying. But the lawsuits will still be there cluttering up those kid's tax free inheritance.

I can't wait until those kids start fighting over his "legacy."

I'm glad for that one kid who seems to have her own life outside of this nonsense.

[Segnosaur]

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

And yet, the delays never quite seem to run out. He’s found the soft underbelly of the American judicial system and managed to exploit it. Delay, delay, delay as a matter of course, usually successfully.

Maddeningly frustrating, but it is what it is and I suspect many of these charges will not be resolved before the grim reaper has his way. “This is the way Trump ends, not with a bang but a whimper.”

Yes, Trump has certainly manipulated things to his own benefit over the years.

There are a few differences now (compared to his earlier situation)....

- Since he is no longer president, he loses the ability to delay because claims that "You can't do that to a sitting president" no longer applies

- Many of his earlier tactics (pre-presidency) were aimed at people/companies who either didn't have the resources to follow through on a long legal fight, and/or didn't want the bother. But now, more of his legal problems are coming from either the government, or from individuals who are at the very least more motivated now than they were pre-2016.

Granted, it wouldn't surprise me if he manages to die with a dozen different lawsuits still tied up in the courts, but there is still a chance things could change.

[eerok]

More incremental legal progress against Trump.

Judge Refuses to Purge Contempt Order Against Donald Trump, as New York AG Sets Deposition Date (lawandcrime.com)

Quote:

“It’s not my goal, my role to hold people in contempt,” Engoron declared at the start of Wednesday’s proceedings.

However, the judge ultimately elected to leave his order in place more than a month later, finding that Trump still hasn’t produced crucial documents to which New York Attorney General Letitia James (D) was entitled.

“I think leaving the contempt order in place is the simplest and most effective way to get this done,” Engoron ruled at the end of the proceedings. “I think it’s very clear that the AG is entitled to these document retention polices and production orders.”

[Athyrio]

Originally Posted by gnome

This is speculation, but I imagine the answer is boring--that they are there to protect the former President's immediate safety, and would neither take part in nor interfere with a law enforcement action or any avoidance or sheltering. They would just go where he goes and keep protecting him from physical harm. Likely they would remain on duty even through acquittal or sentencing.

It does make me wonder if they would still be posted if he were imprisoned. I suspect yes in theory, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is determined that house arrest is more practical, in the highly unlikely event of the former president facing a criminal sentence.

That would be one crummy detail, wouldn’t it? Watching Trump take a dump every day.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Athyrio

That would be one crummy detail, wouldn’t it? Watching Trump take a dump every day.

Would the secret service need to rent cells nearby to live in?

It is a dilemma. One answer would be Rump loses all his ex-POTUS benefits like his retirement and SS protection.

It's hard to imagine house arrest for a conviction of treason or a coup attempt.

That would be another dilemma.


This whole thing is going to be quite the dilemma on so many levels.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Would the secret service need to rent cells nearby to live in?

It is a dilemma. One answer would be Rump loses all his ex-POTUS benefits like his retirement and SS protection.

It's hard to imagine house arrest for a conviction of treason or a coup attempt.

That would be another dilemma.


This whole thing is going to be quite the dilemma on so many levels.

But one well worth finding solutions for.

[Athyrio]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Would the secret service need to rent cells nearby to live in?

It is a dilemma. One answer would be Rump loses all his ex-POTUS benefits like his retirement and SS protection.

It's hard to imagine house arrest for a conviction of treason or a coup attempt.

That would be another dilemma.

This whole thing is going to be quite the dilemma on so many levels.

Maybe construct some special cell on the grounds of Supermax, unless they already have some V.I.P. quarters or Presidential Suite handy. It would be more accommodating for whatever guards end up protecting him.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I remember some of the arguments during the Watergate era when the Republicans (or whoever was involved) traded Agnew out for Ford who pardoned Nixon as part of the deal. Some older person I only vaguely remember told me, a much younger person, that we simply couldn't send a POTUS to jail. It was some kind of blight on the country that would be embarrassing.

I also had an acquaintance, the wife of one of the Grateful Dead roadies (the roadie being the brother of my roommate), who was looking into immigrating to New Zealand because she "couldn't live in a country that pardoned the President." Makes me wonder what they think of today's events. I have not been in touch with that roommate for decades so I can't find out.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Athyrio

Maybe construct some special cell on the grounds of Supermax, unless they already have some V.I.P. quarters or Presidential Suite handy. It would be more accommodating for whatever guards end up protecting him.

How about Gitmo?

I would think the federal charges could mean he'd be headed for a supermax military prison. Or maybe just a military prison that isn't a supermax like Leavenworth. But it would be unprecedented.

I'm not sure whether it would just be a federal prison for federal charges and a state prison for the Georgia charges. There's a good chance Georgia would be reluctant to send Rump to jail.

But the federal charges better include prison time or much of the public will not be satisfied.

[Paul2]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I remember some of the arguments during the Watergate era when the Republicans (or whoever was involved) traded Agnew out for Ford who pardoned Nixon as part of the deal. Some older person I only vaguely remember told me, a much younger person, that we simply couldn't send a POTUS to jail. It was some kind of blight on the country that would be embarrassing.

The actual blight on the country that is embarrassing is a president that committed acts that demand a jail sentence.

[The Great Zaganza]

Separation of Power is supposed to prevent such an abuse by one Branch of government. It failed then, and it failed with Trump.
Time for radical change.

[Paul2]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

How about Gitmo?

Nice one!

Or, how about he's just sentenced to some community service? Har, har, the irony would be too much even for the exploding irony meter.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I wonder if as this gets closer to criminal charges Rump won't leave the country before he's instructed to give up his passport.

His denial may win out and he stays because he's sure he'll be found not-guilty.

[theprestige]

At this rate he'll probably be in the ground before the title of this thread comes true.

[Lurch]

The US was monumentally naive in not realizing the day would come when a President would be a traitorous scumbag deserving of the same legal treatment as any of its other criminal citizens. And foolishly stupid in implementing weak, easily defeated measures to circumvent a criminal President. And criminally shortsighted in erecting mechanisms to shield a sitting POTUS from legal action.

A national ostrich-like, head-in-the-sand refusal to realistically regard a criminal at the top, for fear of national embarrassment, could lead to the situation where there is no longer anything to be embarrassed about because anything the guy at the top does can never be criminal.

You're not that far off already. Just a little push farther...

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by Lurch

The US was monumentally naive in not realizing the day would come when a President would be a traitorous scumbag deserving of the same legal treatment as any of its other criminal citizens. And foolishly stupid in implementing weak, easily defeated measures to circumvent a criminal President. And criminally shortsighted in erecting mechanisms to shield a sitting POTUS from legal action.

A national ostrich-like, head-in-the-sand refusal to realistically regard a criminal at the top, for fear of national embarrassment, could lead to the situation where there is no longer anything to be embarrassed about because anything the guy at the top does can never be criminal.

You're not that far off already. Just a little push farther...

the Founding Fathers just assumed that such a President would get killed in a duel or assassinated.

[gabeygoat]

Originally Posted by theprestige

At this rate he'll probably be in the ground before the title of this thread comes true.

Pretty much

[Stacyhs]

Any Republican elected as POTUS in 2024 is likely to pardon Trump just like Ford did Nixon. It won't matter where Trump stands legally at the time; investigation, charges, on trial or convicted he'll be pardoned.

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Any Republican elected as POTUS in 2024 is likely to pardon Trump just like Ford did Nixon. It won't matter where Trump stand legally at the time; investigation, charges, on trial or convicted he'll be pardoned.

...and thus establish the precedent that election fraud and coups are no risk for great gain.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Any Republican elected as POTUS in 2024 is likely to pardon Trump just like Ford did Nixon. It won't matter where Trump stand legally at the time; investigation, charges, on trial or convicted he'll be pardoned.

If Drumpf backs out and endorses someone a deal will almost certainly be behind it.

I don't see Drumpf conceding and he might just piss the primary candidate off making a deal off the table. But that would be unlikely because just like all the leeches came back to kiss Drumpf's ring, he's likely to still have enough of a voter bloc to trade for said endorsement.

But you are ruining my fantasy of that perp walk and Drumpf actually getting jail time.

OTOH, the GOP candidate would need to actually win and I don't think even with Drumpf's blessing that is a given.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

If Drumpf backs out and endorses someone a deal will almost certainly be behind it.

I don't see Drumpf conceding and he might just piss the primary candidate off making a deal off the table. But that would be unlikely because just like all the leeches came back to kiss Drumpf's ring, he's likely to still have enough of a voter bloc to trade for said endorsement.

But you are ruining my fantasy of that perp walk and Drumpf actually getting jail time.

OTOH, the GOP candidate would need to actually win and I don't think even with Drumpf's blessing that is a given.

Not a given, but after 2016 and seeing how many idiots still voted for him in 2020, I'm certainly not making any bets on it.

[Fast Eddie B]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Any Republican elected as POTUS in 2024 is likely to pardon Trump just like Ford did Nixon. It won't matter where Trump stands legally at the time; investigation, charges, on trial or convicted he'll be pardoned.

To preserve the tiniest glimmer of hope, that will only apply to Federal charges. NY and GA and maybe others can still take a swing.

But, again, I’m not holding my breath.

[arayder]

The question for discussion is whether former President Trump will be, or should be charged with a crime.

Here's some food for thought:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/jus...ppen-rcna33042


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Dope Clock II: It's been [366 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

[Tero]

Well, there is the court and jury. Very likely the jury will not punish him. It's hard to get 12. Hung jury most likely. Trump will claim it a victory and the charges false. "We have proof now!"

[The Great Zaganza]

He absolutely should. For the health of the Nation he must.

But everyone has convinced themselves that Trump is an outlier, and therefore no principles need to be applied to him.

So I expect no criminal charges from the January 6th commission intel, but I do expect successful civil litigation from it.

[Warp12]

What if he is criminally charged...and found not guilty? Is that more harmful than not charging him at all? After all, what doesn't kill him only makes him stronger.

Is it better for Dems to be content with the continued ability to lob charges that haven't faced the test of a court of law?

I'd say the latter has a better chance of long-term success for Dems.

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by Warp12

What if he is criminally charged...and found not guilty? Is that more harmful than not charging him at all?

of course.
Having a Jury make a decision, and not just politicians, is always better.

Originally Posted by Warp12

After all, what doesn't kill him only makes him stronger....

he lost the election - is he stronger than before?

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

he lost the election - is he stronger than before?

He'd have had to deal with the economic fallout from Covid if he'd won, so taking 4 years out may be the best thing for him.

[Tero]

Originally Posted by Warp12

What if he is criminally charged...and found not guilty? Is that more harmful than not charging him at all? After all, what doesn't kill him only makes him stronger.

Is it better for Dems to be content with the continued ability to lob charges that haven't faced the test of a court of law?

I'd say the latter has a better chance of long-term success for Dems.

Er...that was pretty much what I said above.

[arayder]

To further discussion:

What about charges in a state court, like Georgia, over attempts to bully the AG into giving him votes?

Or charges of fraud (in NY?) regarding his election defense fund?

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Dope Clock II: It's been 366 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

[Paul2]

Originally Posted by arayder

The question for discussion is whether former President Trump will be, or should be charged with a crime.

Here's some food for thought:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/jus...ppen-rcna33042


--------------
Dope Clock II: It's been [366 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

If there was any justice in the world, he'd be charged, convicted, and the key thrown away. But there isn't, because here's the consideration:

If you charge him, something between what we have now and a civil war, loosely, will happen. I can easily see trump supporters conducting demonstrations, being met by democracy supporters, and violence ensuing. Or, trump supporters taking violent action against local government officials or buildings.

Let's say that's a realistic possibility if trump is charged. Weighed against that is the failure to hold someone accountable for trying to overturn democracy. But because democracy wasn't overturned, that means the result of not charging trump will happen in the future, but then it will be someone else's problem, and maybe they can prevent democracy from being destroyed. In any case, you kick the can down the road, and who knows what might happen in between time? The one thing you do know is that, once trump is indicted, he's indicted forever, and violence will ensue.

I want the worst punishment for trump, but the above might be the trade-off that the DoJ is considering.

[The Great Zaganza]

There won't be a Civil War over Trump - all competent MAGA organizers and supporters are grifters who look out for themselves, and only use Trump as their golden goose.
He would be very valuable for them in prison.

[arayder]

Originally Posted by Paul2

If there was any justice in the world, he'd be charged, convicted, and the key thrown away. But there isn't, because here's the consideration:

If you charge him, something between what we have now and a civil war, loosely, will happen. I can easily see trump supporters conducting demonstrations, being met by democracy supporters, and violence ensuing. Or, trump supporters taking violent action against local government officials or buildings.

Let's say that's a realistic possibility if trump is charged. Weighed against that is the failure to hold someone accountable for trying to overturn democracy. But because democracy wasn't overturned, that means the result of not charging trump will happen in the future, but then it will be someone else's problem, and maybe they can prevent democracy from being destroyed. In any case, you kick the can down the road, and who knows what might happen in between time? The one thing you do know is that, once trump is indicted, he's indicted forever, and violence will ensue.

I want the worst punishment for trump, but the above might be the trade-off that the DoJ is considering.

A thoughtful post, Paul2.

Here's another possibility for the "in between time". . . .a boat load of Trump associates get time in the crowbar hotel and along the way he gets listed as an un-indicted coconspirator. In what Trump's supporters claim is a brashly political stunt the trials happen close enough to November 2024 that the public can't help but tie them to the election, especially since many of the crimes were done at Trump's direction.

Trump still gets the party's nod but can't talk about anything other than the trials during the campaign. Several times in his rambling rally speeches he infers that he'll pardon his former associates. In so doing he fails to pin the economy on the Democratic candidate and loses yet again.

The house and the senate swing to the Republicans since every Republican running has the sense to say, "high gas prices" and "Democrats" in the same sentence several times in each speech.

In November and December 2024 the question becomes whether, after having lost two successive elections, Trump has the political capital to mount another stop the steal campaign. By then many of Trump's former associates are in jail, on the way, or ruined by their ordeal, thus making the task of finding dupes to carry out the very same crimes more difficult.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 366 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

[JoeMorgue]

"Oh you better not punish me, it's gonna cause a CIVIL WAR" is the best excuse that Trump has been handed.

"Better not give me any negative consequences for openly trying to steal an election and doing irrevocable damage to the very concept of American democracy!"

[shemp]

Originally Posted by Paul2

If there was any justice in the world, he'd be charged, convicted, and the key thrown away. But there isn't, because here's the consideration:

If you charge him, something between what we have now and a civil war, loosely, will happen. I can easily see trump supporters conducting demonstrations, being met by democracy supporters, and violence ensuing. Or, trump supporters taking violent action against local government officials or buildings.

Let's say that's a realistic possibility if trump is charged. Weighed against that is the failure to hold someone accountable for trying to overturn democracy. But because democracy wasn't overturned, that means the result of not charging trump will happen in the future, but then it will be someone else's problem, and maybe they can prevent democracy from being destroyed. In any case, you kick the can down the road, and who knows what might happen in between time? The one thing you do know is that, once trump is indicted, he's indicted forever, and violence will ensue.

I want the worst punishment for trump, but the above might be the trade-off that the DoJ is considering.

Or we can sit around wringing our hands while democracy rots away and dies. I prefer to fight for it, in the physical sense if necessary. I'd rather die a free man than live on my knees to evil.

[JoeMorgue]

Trump and everyone who supports him has been a coward who's folded the second things get hard.

Them still getting people to let themselves be bullied by their backhanded claims of what will happen if they don't get there way shouldn't be a factor in our decision.

[Paul2]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

"Oh you better not punish me, it's gonna cause a CIVIL WAR" is the best excuse that Trump has been handed.

"Better not give me any negative consequences for openly trying to steal an election and doing irrevocable damage to the very concept of American democracy!"

Originally Posted by shemp

Or we can sit around wringing our hands while democracy rots away and dies. I prefer to fight for it, in the physical sense if necessary. I'd rather die a free man than live on my knees to evil.

I admit of no one wanting the Tangerine Tyrant to get his due more than I. I'm only laying out what might be in the mind of the DoJ's prosecutors and M. Garland.

Back to your regularly scheduled rants.