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Old 22nd March 2021, 01:29 PM   #121
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
It's a country governed by communist dictatorship.

Democracy is non existent.
Free speech is a criminal offence.
Millions of Uighurs are incarcerated for no other reason than being Muslim.

And the western world uses it as a sweatshop.
Except for the word "Communist" I agree with everything you say. Oh, the ruling party still calls itself "Communist" but there is damn little Marxist doctrine in their current economic policies.
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Old 23rd March 2021, 11:31 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Except for the word "Communist" I agree with everything you say. Oh, the ruling party still calls itself "Communist" but there is damn little Marxist doctrine in their current economic policies.
There are still strong elements of a command economy in place, but the integration between government and private, for profit business and the expectation of strong nationalism in the private sector is more reminiscent of Fascism than Marxism.

From the wiki page on the economics of Fascism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_fascism

Quote:
In general, fascist governments exercised control over private property, but they did not nationalize it.[7] Scholars also noted that big business developed an increasingly close partnership with the Italian Fascist and German fascist governments. Business leaders supported the government's political and military goals. In exchange, the government pursued economic policies that maximized the profits of its business allies
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Old 23rd March 2021, 12:15 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
There are still strong elements of a command economy in place, but the integration between government and private, for profit business and the expectation of strong nationalism in the private sector is more reminiscent of Fascism than Marxism.

From the wiki page on the economics of Fascism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_fascism
I agree about a strong element of command ecomony, but still the CHinese Government has strayed very far from Marxist doctrine. Its; still CINO....Communist In Name Only.
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Old 24th March 2021, 08:50 AM   #124
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So expectation on when they will end that silly idea of Taiwan as independent?
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Old 24th March 2021, 10:48 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So expectation on when they will end that silly idea of Taiwan as independent?
China did that long ago. It's Taiwan and USA who keep sticking to the idea that it's a different country.
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Old 24th March 2021, 02:16 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So expectation on when they will end that silly idea of Taiwan as independent?
Presumably you mean by force?
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Old 24th March 2021, 02:54 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Presumably you mean by force?
Will not happen.

Even Xi isn't mad enough to try that - they will continue to apply renminbi diplomacy and nothing more.
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Old 30th March 2021, 09:23 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Presumably you mean by force?
China is builting a lot of aircraft carriers and navy in general. You do that to project power, where will they be projecting it?
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Old 30th March 2021, 11:56 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
China is builting a lot of aircraft carriers and navy in general. You do that to project power, where will they be projecting it?
A quote about a very large gorilla comes to mind ;9.
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Old 30th March 2021, 01:16 PM   #130
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At this point, China's system of government seems pretty much textbook fascist. A certain amount of "private" enterprise is allowed, so long as it happens under state supervision and conforms to the will of the state. And they seem to keep stumbling into fuhrerprinzip for some reason.

Last edited by theprestige; 30th March 2021 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 30th March 2021, 01:37 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Will not happen.

Even Xi isn't mad enough to try that - they will continue to apply renminbi diplomacy and nothing more.
For now. They can wait untill USA can no longer afford a strong naval presence, be it 30, 50, or 100 years from now.
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Old 30th March 2021, 03:29 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
China did that long ago. It's Taiwan and USA who keep sticking to the idea that it's a different country.
De facto it is, though both the Taiwanese and the CCP claim to be the "Legitimate " government of CHina.
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Old 30th March 2021, 03:30 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So expectation on when they will end that silly idea of Taiwan as independent?
You really are in love with the Chinese Government and the CCP, are'nt you?
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Old 30th March 2021, 03:31 PM   #134
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The amount of de facto support the CHinese Government gets around here is scary.
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Old 30th March 2021, 03:32 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng View Post
For now. They can wait untill USA can no longer afford a strong naval presence, be it 30, 50, or 100 years from now.
Or can they? How long can China afford a strong naval presence?
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Old 11th April 2021, 11:50 PM   #136
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China

That seems interesting. i think now it changes.
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Old 12th April 2021, 02:52 AM   #137
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This is pure gold - we've all been claiming abuse, rape and torture of the Uyghurs, and the truth is, they're running around and singing happy songs.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...se-allegations
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Old 12th April 2021, 02:58 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
This is pure gold - we've all been claiming abuse, rape and torture of the Uyghurs, and the truth is, they're running around and singing happy songs.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...se-allegations
Well thatís made us all look silly hasnít it! How we mistook the movie studio for an internment camp I donít know!
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Old 12th April 2021, 01:08 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You really are in love with the Chinese Government and the CCP, are'nt you?
And clearly there is nothing to see here, nope nothing at all, those aircraft carriers could be for anything.

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202104/1220779.shtml
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Old 12th April 2021, 01:20 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Or can they? How long can China afford a strong naval presence?
I can remember in the 80s when the same sort of people were sure Japan was going to become a dominant global power, then the wheels came off when all the bad loans and cooked books came to light. I wouldn't be surprised to find out there are similar issues in China, the CCP is just better able to paper over the cracks.
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Old 12th April 2021, 02:24 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Well thatís made us all look silly hasnít it! How we mistook the movie studio for an internment camp I donít know!
That is propaganda worthy of Uncle Joe.
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Old 12th April 2021, 02:27 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And clearly there is nothing to see here, nope nothing at all, those aircraft carriers could be for anything.

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202104/1220779.shtml
Global Times is China's version of "Russia Today" a pure propaganda paper, and anything in it needs to be taken with a ton of salt.
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Old 12th April 2021, 04:19 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And clearly there is nothing to see here, nope nothing at all, those aircraft carriers could be for anything.


That piece of junk reminds me of the "banana-boat" converted carriers my old man served on in WWII - not fit for purpose. I guess that at least it's not coal-powered like its sister, the Admiral Kuznetsov.

It really shows what a bunch of twats Xi and his pals are - a vessel that's excellent at bullying little guys, like Vietnam and Philippines, but they may as well have rowboats if they want to scare Japan & Taiwan, who have a friend with somewhat better materiel.
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Old 12th April 2021, 05:06 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
: dl :

That piece of junk reminds me of the "banana-boat" converted carriers my old man served on in WWII - not fit for purpose. I guess that at least it's not coal-powered like its sister, the Admiral Kuznetsov.

It really shows what a bunch of twats Xi and his pals are - a vessel that's excellent at bullying little guys, like Vietnam and Philippines, but they may as well have rowboats if they want to scare Japan & Taiwan, who have a friend with somewhat better materiel.
I wouldn't laugh too hard. This is all practice for China. They're playing catch up on a hundred years of carrier ops experience. Getting their hands on a recent gen carrier and improving it is a huge step forward in capability and institutional knowledge.

The Chinese aren't stupid. They know the Kuz isn't adequate to the task they have in mind. But they also understand that it's a valuable stepping stone to the next goal: Real fleet carriers, capable of contesting the South China Sea and the Sea of Japan.

This current attempt is a significant and serious milestone on the road from nothing at all to operational fleet carriers. If nothing else, it allows their air wings to start practicing carrier ops from a real working carrier.

Given that the Aussies have sod all in the way of carriers, and couldn't contest an Emu's fart outside of their island air space, maybe laughing isn't in order.

Last edited by theprestige; 12th April 2021 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 12th April 2021, 06:03 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Given that the Aussies have sod all in the way of carriers, and couldn't contest an Emu's fart outside of their island air space, maybe laughing isn't in order.
Oh, I'd be laughing all the harder if Aussie were involved. We'd definitely side with China in a Sino-Ockeran War.
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Old 13th April 2021, 06:41 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Global Times is China's version of "Russia Today" a pure propaganda paper, and anything in it needs to be taken with a ton of salt.
Got it china's navy and naval build up is a total fiction and not something that actually exists and anyone who suggests otherwise is clearly on the side of the chinese.
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Old 13th April 2021, 11:37 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I wouldn't laugh too hard. This is all practice for China. They're playing catch up on a hundred years of carrier ops experience. Getting their hands on a recent gen carrier and improving it is a huge step forward in capability and institutional knowledge.

The Chinese aren't stupid. They know the Kuz isn't adequate to the task they have in mind. But they also understand that it's a valuable stepping stone to the next goal: Real fleet carriers, capable of contesting the South China Sea and the Sea of Japan.

This current attempt is a significant and serious milestone on the road from nothing at all to operational fleet carriers. If nothing else, it allows their air wings to start practicing carrier ops from a real working carrier.

Given that the Aussies have sod all in the way of carriers, and couldn't contest an Emu's fart outside of their island air space, maybe laughing isn't in order.
I don't like or trust the Chinese Government, but I am not going to get all paranoid about them either. I think China is a long ways off from fielding a Navy to compete with the US. I think their carriers are more a propaganda/political muscle thing then a attempt to build a blue water navy.

I think we are a long,long ways off from having to plan for Coral Sea 2 to stop CHina from invading Australia...

And what is it with those on the Right? They can't live without an Enemy to fight.
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Old 13th April 2021, 11:39 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Oh, I'd be laughing all the harder if Aussie were involved. We'd definitely side with China in a Sino-Ockeran War.
Your how ultra cynical I Don't like Anybody But Kiwis shtick has gotten old.
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Old 13th April 2021, 12:24 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I don't like or trust the Chinese Government, but I am not going to get all paranoid about them either. I think China is a long ways off from fielding a Navy to compete with the US. I think their carriers are more a propaganda/political muscle thing then a attempt to build a blue water navy.

I think we are a long,long ways off from having to plan for Coral Sea 2 to stop CHina from invading Australia...

And what is it with those on the Right? They can't live without an Enemy to fight.
The point is China is working towards that goal, and making steady progress.

And I'm not looking for an enemy to fight. But I think China's behavior clearly puts them in the "hope for the best, prepare for the worst" bucket.

And naval build up is a multi-decade process. If there's going to be investment in a counterbalance to Chinese naval power in the region, it has to be decided on early enough to make a difference. China's investing in naval power right now. Two or three decades from now, we might wish we'd invested in parallel, rather than waiting to see if it would turn out okay if we didn't.
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Old 13th April 2021, 01:04 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think their carriers are more a propaganda/political muscle thing then a attempt to build a blue water navy.
Holy crap, we agree on something!

I'll break out the Veuve Cliquot.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Your how ultra cynical I Don't like Anybody But Kiwis shtick has gotten old.
You missed the point on that one - it was a joke aimed at someone thinking I was in Australia.

Mate, if there are two countries in the world that will always stick together, it's NZ and Aussie.
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Old 18th June 2021, 01:12 PM   #151
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Nuclear plant in trouble?

Top Chinese nuclear scientist dies after "falling" from building?

Nothing to see here...

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/scie...-fall-building
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Old 18th June 2021, 01:31 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That piece of junk reminds me of the "banana-boat" converted carriers my old man served on in WWII - not fit for purpose. I guess that at least it's not coal-powered like its sister, the Admiral Kuznetsov.

It really shows what a bunch of twats Xi and his pals are - a vessel that's excellent at bullying little guys, like Vietnam and Philippines, but they may as well have rowboats if they want to scare Japan & Taiwan, who have a friend with somewhat better materiel.
The other issue the Chinese has completely missed that the United States and Russia have vastly different views on how Aircraft Carriers fit into their Navys.

Okay so a United States Carrier will go out with 6-10ish other ships. Usually a cruiser, a couple of destroyers, maybe a sub, a supply ship, a few other heres and theres.

The main striking force of an American Carrier Battlegroup is the planes. You've basically got a fairly robust entire air force you can park off someone's coast. The other ships there are fully capable off adding with strikes (you've probably got several hundred Tomahawks at your disposal for instance) but in general they are there to protect the Carrier.

So if you're an being attack by an American Aircraft Carrier Battlegroup, odds are good what's coming your way is a squadron of F/A-18s.

Russia does it differently. Russia Naval Aircraft don't have anywhere near the strike range of American ones. If a Russian Naval Battlegroup is fighting you, odds are missiles, not planes are coming your way. And the Carrier is more there to provide aircover to protect the missile ships.

Now of course both are full of ships with some level of versatility so variations happen, Americans are perfectly capable of missile stripes and Russians are perfectly capable of Naval airstrikes, but the groups are focused differently.

China buys/builds a Russian style aircraft carrier which is best suited to protecting large missile ships it doesn't have.
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Old 18th June 2021, 06:17 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
China buys/builds a Russian style aircraft carrier which is best suited to protecting large missile ships it doesn't have.
Or need. They just build islands to house the missiles.

It's pretty plain the Chinese aircraft carrier/s are there to show how clever they are instead of any serious purpose. They've only just started taking off and landing.
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Old 19th June 2021, 10:52 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Will not happen.

Even Xi isn't mad enough to try that - they will continue to apply renminbi diplomacy and nothing more.
It won't happen soon.

But China is actively working to change conditions so that China could take it by force. They might never reach that stage, but they very much want to. And it will take active efforts by the west to counter China on this score. It's entirely possible that we could sleepwalk into China invading Taiwan a few decades from now.
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Old 20th June 2021, 05:22 AM   #155
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Big issue for China is that despite relaxing their one child policy and allowing people to have two its made no difference to birth rates, their response? Let people have three children! Much as we like to whine about it in the west we can offset our aging population through immigration, that's not on the cards for China.
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Old 20th June 2021, 09:40 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Big issue for China is that despite relaxing their one child policy and allowing people to have two its made no difference to birth rates, their response? Let people have three children! Much as we like to whine about it in the west we can offset our aging population through immigration, that's not on the cards for China.
That dropping population is also going to exacerbate the ghost cities problem. The property in those cities was often bought as an investment, with the idea that it will be worth something in the future. So the fact that the ghost cities aren't populated now isn't really the problem. But with a shrinking population, they may never be. And given the shoddy construction quality of many of them, they may not be fit for habitation even if people want to move there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XopSDJq6w8E
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Old 20th June 2021, 10:27 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Or need. They just build islands to house the missiles.

It's pretty plain the Chinese aircraft carrier/s are there to show how clever they are instead of any serious purpose. They've only just started taking off and landing.
Establishing that they are clever enough to build aircraft carriers and begin practicing carrier ops seems like a pretty serious purpose already.
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Old 20th June 2021, 12:42 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Establishing that they are clever enough to build aircraft carriers and begin practicing carrier ops seems like a pretty serious purpose already.
Probably impresses the hell out of people like Duterte, while instilling fear into Taiwan, so regionally, it probably works quite well.
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Old 20th June 2021, 01:24 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Probably impresses the hell out of people like Duterte, while instilling fear into Taiwan, so regionally, it probably works quite well.
No, I get it. I really do. If China is actually on course to build a blue water navy, with a mix of carrier groups and fixed outposts to project power around the south China sea, that would tend to legitimize the current US policy of Pax Americana Navalis, and continued investment there.

Since the Pax Americana is illegitimate and offensive to reasonable people all around the Pacific Rim, it necessarily follows that China isn't actually making real progress in that direction.
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Old 14th July 2021, 03:53 PM   #160
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This is China and how they treat the world: https://news.yahoo.com/chinese-ships...060416510.html
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