China

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

This is China and how they treat the world: https://news.yahoo.com/chinese-ships...060416510.html

It's getting like Mad Max in the South China sea.

"Tensions in the South China Sea have ratcheted up this year, with Manila accusing Beijing of trying to intimidate its coast guard vessels, as well as sending its so called "maritime militia" to crowd out Philippine fishing boats. In May, the Philippine foreign minister demanded in a tweet that China's vessels "GET THE ****** OUT" of the disputed waters."

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/07/14/a...hnk/index.html

[theprestige]

It's tragicomic, how Australia is feeding itself the short end of the stick in this. Won't build its own navy. Doesn't want the US Navy. Can't stop the People's Liberation Army Navy. At this point, The Atheist has it right. Best bet is to pretend the PLAN is not and never will be a serious threat to Australia's freedom of movement and commerce in the region.

[The Atheist]

If you need evidence of how China enables its citizens to act as actual slave masters while raping the oceans in the 21st century, here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_Capes

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

If you need evidence of how China enables its citizens to act as actual slave masters while raping the oceans in the 21st century, here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_Capes

I… don’t understand your link.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I… don’t understand your link.

I think he means that China is aiming to be World's Strongest Man, just like Geoff Capes was. Perhaps The Atheist is hinting that China may have an Achilles Heel, which is a fear of budgies. However, Geoff Capes's fear of budgies was merely a joke column in the British magazine Viz, and not a true story.

[jollyroger85]

Originally Posted by theprestige

It's tragicomic, how Australia is feeding itself the short end of the stick in this. Won't build its own navy. Doesn't want the US Navy. Can't stop the People's Liberation Army Navy. At this point, The Atheist has it right. Best bet is to pretend the PLAN is not and never will be a serious threat to Australia's freedom of movement and commerce in the region.

war or not, we need to start sinking the boats of the Chinese Fishing Mafia. And encourage other countries to follow suit when they "stray" into their territorial waters.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I… don’t understand your link.

Sorry about that, and apologies to Geoff if he ever comes back - I didn't click on the right headline after posting that in Sports.

This is the story: https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/20...enslaving-crew

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Sorry about that, and apologies to Geoff if he ever comes back - I didn't click on the right headline after posting that in Sports.

This is the story: https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/20...enslaving-crew

OK, that I can make sense of. angrysoba made a valiant effort and comprehending the first link in context, but obviously it wasn't really going to work.

[Ziggurat]

What does the "e" in China stand for?

Electricity

[theprestige]

[insert "before candles" joke here]

[The Atheist]

This will be an interesting watch - China's plan to redistribute wealth.

Corporates have jumped on board, no doubt because they'd rather comply with the polite request than be forced to.

Luxury brands may suffer. Boo hoo.

[Boudicca90]

My opinion of Xi and China has been mixed, but I certainly support these efforts.

The Chinese government let capitalism reign supreme for far too long and it's good to see them rightfully take the corporations and billionaires down a peg for the good of the rest of society.

We should take notes.

[Orphia Nay]

That's very interesting.

I was wondering what's happened to Jack Ma, and found this.

https://marketrealist.com/p/is-jack-ma-still-missing/

"Since he first "went missing," Ma has only been seen six times in public. In January, he published a video of himself online that many people thought looked orchestrated. He said that he's working with charity foundations in his country to help poor people. The video was first posted on a Chinese government-based news publication. In the video, he called for "rural revitalization and common prosperity," two things that Chinese President Xi Jinping cites as key goals."

Whether it's forced or done willingly, there's a mention of this "common prosperity" by a a billionaire.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

I was wondering what's happened to Jack Ma, and found this.

I have no doubt Jack was told very carefully, and over a period of time, that he needed to change his attitude or go missing permanently. He may have thought he was immune from the CCP, but the message was that he isn't, and if he isn't, nobody is.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

My opinion of Xi and China has been mixed, but I certainly support these efforts.

The Chinese government let capitalism reign supreme for far too long and it's good to see them rightfully take the corporations and billionaires down a peg for the good of the rest of society.

We should take notes.

A person needs to be really gullible to think this is motivated by concern for China’s poor. It isn’t. It’s motivated by a desire for more government control and power. The CCP will brook no rivals.

[The Great Zaganza]

China is an interesting ongoing test case for a lot of issues.
Result of falling birth rates, social engineering, eco fascism, etc

The rest of the world can learn a lot from China - both what and what not to do.

[Boudicca90]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

A person needs to be really gullible to think this is motivated by concern for China’s poor. It isn’t. It’s motivated by a desire for more government control and power. The CCP will brook no rivals.

Better for the corporations and billionaires to be subserviant to the government than the other way around.

They realize this capitalist experiment of theirs is creating way too much income inequality in society (because that's what capitalism does) and giving the capitalists too much power and they are putting a stop to it.

In a country like ours, where the corporations and lobbyists own the government, something like this would unfortunately be impossible.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

Better for the corporations and billionaires to be subserviant to the government than the other way around.

Not when the government is the CCP.

Quote:

They realize this capitalist experiment of theirs is creating way too much income inequality in society

Bwahahahaha!

No. You really don't have a clue about China, do you? It isn't capitalism which has created such vast inequality. It's cronyism. China is corrupt from top to bottom. You can't get anywhere without the blessing of the CCP. They pick the winners and losers. Economic inequality is far worse in China than it is in Taiwan, because China was never really capitalist, and Taiwan is.

Quote:

In a country like ours, where the corporations and lobbyists own the government, something like this would unfortunately be impossible.

What do you even think "this" is? Are you actually naive enough to think that China is really going to help the poor, and lift them up?

No. Don't be stupid. China doesn't give a **** about their own poor. They treat them like dirt. If you live in rural China, you aren't even allowed to move to the city to get a better job.

One little tidbit I just found out about is damn flooding. Their flood management systems are garbage so they frequently have to release water from dams at levels that will cause flooding. It's possible to warn residents about these releases so that they can prepare. But generally, they don't. Why not? Because if it's a planned release, they have to provide compensation to the victims. But if it's an emergency release (even if they know it's going to happen ahead of time), then it's a natural disaster and no compensation is owed. They deliberately **** over their own citizens. This is just one of many examples of how.

The CCP are not the heroes you imagine them to be. They aren't just occasionally wrong, or misguided. They are villains, through and through. Stop being a sucker for their propaganda.

[Boudicca90]

The CCP are certainly no heroes of mine. They just do some things that I agree with and some things I don't. I just don't see them as any worse or better than we are.

And "villians"? Really? No. They are an economic and political competitor and the US hasn't really had one since the collapse of the Soviet Union. We need to work together for the benefit of both our nations and not let hatred drive us into another pointless Cold War like the right seems determined to get us into (or just straight up WWIII like some of you have been proposing).

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

The CCP are certainly no heroes of mine. They just do some things that I agree with and some things I don't. I just don't see them as any worse or better than we are.

Then you are blind.

Quote:

And "villians"? Really?

Yes. Really.

Quote:

No. They are an economic and political competitor and the US hasn't really had one since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

No. The EU is a competitor. The CCP is an enemy.

But isn't even the fact that they are our enemy which makes me say they are villains. The CCP is the enemy of the Chinese people too. You clearly have no idea of their true nature, and of the evil they inflict on their own citizens. You are also buying into their propaganda by identifying the CCP with the Chinese population, when they are not at all the same. And no, none of our own sins are actually comparable.

[Boudicca90]

You can constantly find new enemies to fight to buff up your ego, but it's of no concern of mine. China hasn't done anything to us to warrant calling them our enemies.

Meanwhile we've spent our time since the end of WWII treating global politics as our plaything and using the Red Scare as a pretext to imperialism (to be fair, the Soviet Union and the UK did this as well).

The Chinese people seem by and large happy with their government. Just because we tend to have our ideological blinders on in the west, seeing anything but our precious 'democratic republic' as illegitimate, doesn't mean we are right.

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

The Chinese people seem by and large happy with their government.

You may want to take a deeper look into this one.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

China hasn't done anything to us to warrant calling them our enemies.

Uhhh... Industrial espionage? Intellectual property theft?

Covid?

Quote:

Meanwhile we've spent our time since the end of WWII treating global politics as our plaything and using the Red Scare as a pretext to imperialism (to be fair, the Soviet Union and the UK did this as well).

Of course. The inevitable whataboutism stage.

Quote:

The Chinese people seem by and large happy with their government.

How exactly would you even know? And what exactly do you think they have to compare it to?

Quote:

Just because we tend to have our ideological blinders on in the west, seeing anything but our precious 'democratic republic' as illegitimate, doesn't mean we are right.

You can't actually defend the CCP on its own terms, can you?

[Boudicca90]

I have no desire to defend the CCP, just to state that they aren't our enemies.

I did my time in service of my country, and I have no desire to get into another pointless war.

You can bang the drums of war all you want to. I'm not listening.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

I have no desire to defend the CCP, just to state that they aren't our enemies.

That statement is false, by any number of relevant metrics.

Quote:

I did my time in service of my country, and I have no desire to get into another pointless war.

The current opposition to China is not pointless. Escalating to actual warfare in response to China's escalation would also not be pointless.

Quote:

You can bang the drums of war all you want to. I'm not listening.

One reason to bang the war drums is so that China hears them and opts not to escalate.

[Boudicca90]

Have they attacked us? No? Then they aren't our enemy.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

Have they attacked us? No? Then they aren't our enemy.

They absolutely have attacked us, our allies, our trading partners, their neighbors, and their own citizens. Repeatedly. They will continue to attack in the future, and will almost certainly escalate those attacks as time goes on. Especially if they believe there is no appetite for contesting their escalations.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

I have no desire to defend the CCP

Then why do you keep doing it?

Quote:

I did my time in service of my country, and I have no desire to get into another pointless war.

You can bang the drums of war all you want to. I'm not listening.

Who said anything about going to war? I don't want war with China. I never advocated war with China.

War isn't the only option for dealing with an enemy. Only a fool would think it was.

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

Have they attacked us? No? Then they aren't our enemy.

They have deliberately harmed us, and they intend to deliberately harm us again. Conflicts don't have to rise to the level of outright war in order for countries to be enemies.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Conflicts don't have to rise to the level of outright war in order for countries to be enemies.

In fact I'm pretty sure it's the other way 'round, in practice. Countries start out as enemies, and then escalate that enmity to outright war.

[Boudicca90]

Believe me, I am not blind to China's capabilities or power.

My job when I was stationed in Okinawa was maintaining the aircraft that would fly AWACS recon missions close to Chinese and North Korean airspace. We would get regular OPSEC briefings and have twice monthly base-wide exercises to prepare for any attack.

Although the reality was we were in what was affectionately called the 'Ring Of Death', and any attack would reach us so quickly that our exercises were more about hunkering down and surviving during alarm red and then go out in our MOPP suits when it's alarm black to do SABC on the survivors or clean up UXO that's still around.

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by theprestige

They absolutely have attacked us, our allies, our trading partners, their neighbors, and their own citizens. Repeatedly. They will continue to attack in the future, and will almost certainly escalate those attacks as time goes on. Especially if they believe there is no appetite for contesting their escalations.

The word "attack" is doing some stretching in that paragraph.

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Originally Posted by theprestige

They absolutely have attacked us, our allies, our trading partners, their neighbors, and their own citizens. Repeatedly. They will continue to attack in the future, and will almost certainly escalate those attacks as time goes on. Especially if they believe there is no appetite for contesting their escalations.

In what way have they attacked the US or it's allies?
The examples you mentioned upthread are those of rivals, not enemies.

As for attacking their own citizens, yes, they are a dictatorship. Dictatorships do that. Never stopped nations from trading with those before. And most of those citizens being attacked are Muslims who are being interned under the global war on terrorism. Who gave China that excuse again? (hint, the name contains jr.)

I'm not sure if it's possible to eventually prevent China from annexing Taiwan. They've consistently claimed it as part of their country (and Taiwan claimed China as theirs for a long time, not sure if they still do), with only the threat of nuclear war stopping them from invading. Is the US still willing to die in a nuclear fire along with the rest of the world over Taiwan?
The moment the answer is a clear no, I suspect it'll get invaded and treated like Hong-Kong.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

In what way have they attacked the US or it's allies?

They recently invaded other countries. And again, COVID. They deliberately spread it globally. That wasn't accidental, that was on purpose.

Quote:

I'm not sure if it's possible to eventually prevent China from annexing Taiwan. They've consistently claimed it as part of their country (and Taiwan claimed China as theirs for a long time, not sure if they still do), with only the threat of nuclear war stopping them from invading. Is the US still willing to die in a nuclear fire along with the rest of the world over Taiwan?

Nuclear war isn't necessary to stop an invasion. Naval invasions are harder than you realize. In this age of spy satellites, advanced radar, and guided anti-ship missiles, just getting a landing force to the island is a huge task, let alone taking and holding the island. And the fallout would devastate China's economy. Economic growth in the backbone of legitimacy for the CCP. That goes down the toilet with an invasion, successful or not. You don't need to use nuclear weapons to close down the shipping lanes to China. And China cannot even feed its population without imports. China cannot afford war. And given their looming economic problems (bad debt, real estate bubble, demographic collapse), I doubt they will be able to in the future either. Taiwan may be in their reach, but it is not in their grasp.

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

They recently invaded other countries. And again, COVID. They deliberately spread it globally. That wasn't accidental, that was on purpose.



Nuclear war isn't necessary to stop an invasion. Naval invasions are harder than you realize. In this age of spy satellites, advanced radar, and guided anti-ship missiles, just getting a landing force to the island is a huge task, let alone taking and holding the island. And the fallout would devastate China's economy. Economic growth in the backbone of legitimacy for the CCP. That goes down the toilet with an invasion, successful or not. You don't need to use nuclear weapons to close down the shipping lanes to China. And China cannot even feed its population without imports. China cannot afford war. And given their looming economic problems (bad debt, real estate bubble, demographic collapse), I doubt they will be able to in the future either. Taiwan may be in their reach, but it is not in their grasp.

Apart from conspiracy theory sites, any actual evidence for the highlighted?
*edited to add* and what countries have recently been invaded by China?

And I'm in no way considering an invasion of Taiwan easy, but I think you severely underestimate the way most Chinese feel about re-taking that island. The CCP was in power and kept in power during periods of hardship we can barely imagine, and the needs of the nation before the needs of the self is the core of Chinese philosophy, so an economic hit will have far less political influence than it would have in the west. Especially if something that is considered a humiliating situation is redressed by that hit.

The only way Taiwan could stop an invasion is with US help.
China has nuclear weapons that can reach and devastate the US.
So the question does become, is the US willing to play nuclear chicken should China play that card over Taiwan.

[Lplus]

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

Apart from conspiracy theory sites, any actual evidence for the highlighted?
*edited to add* and what countries have recently been invaded by China?

And I'm in no way considering an invasion of Taiwan easy, but I think you severely underestimate the way most Chinese feel about re-taking that island. The CCP was in power and kept in power during periods of hardship we can barely imagine, and the needs of the nation before the needs of the self is the core of Chinese philosophy, so an economic hit will have far less political influence than it would have in the west. Especially if something that is considered a humiliating situation is redressed by that hit.

The only way Taiwan could stop an invasion is with US help.
China has nuclear weapons that can reach and devastate the US.
So the question does become, is the US willing to play nuclear chicken should China play that card over Taiwan.

Whilst China is the cheap mass manufacturing centre for most of the planet, it seems unlikely that there would be any significant hit on China's economy, even if China invaded Taiwan and obliterated the entire population. Conversely, the high tech loss to the western electronic industry would be devastating. South Korea and Japan would be unable to take up the slack.

Should the "west" take far more manufacturing back "in house" in the future, then that might change, but I'm not holding my breath.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

They recently invaded other countries.

Really? Which countries have they invaded?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

And again, COVID. They deliberately spread it globally. That wasn't accidental, that was on purpose.

Utter nonsense not supported by any evidence.

[The Great Zaganza]

I would argue that Covid hit China harder that most societies, politically, as it continues to be an indication that Xi doesn't have as much of a Mandate of Heaven as he wants the citizens to believe he does.

[Boudicca90]

Looks like the last invasion China undertook was the Sino-Vietnamese war. And that was for three weeks back in 1979, which is a very charitable interpretation of 'recently'.

And it has less to do with Vietnam itself and more to do with countering the Soviet Union, which was something that had our blessing at the time, enemy of my enemy and all.

Taiwan is not our problem, it is Chinese territory and I have no desire to get involved in yet another country's civil war. Would we allow a rogue state within our borders? If Texas started telling the rest of the country and the world that they are a sovereign nation and the true United States, and kept trying to get support for that falsehood, how long do you think we would put up with that?

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

Looks like the last invasion China undertook was the Sino-Vietnamese war.

No. They are currently invading other countries in the South China Sea.

Quote:

Taiwan is not our problem,

Taiwan is everyone's problem. I'm sure you've heard about all the problems the current microchip shortage has caused, right? That's nothing compared to what would happen if China invaded Taiwan. The economic impact on the global economy would be devastating. We very much have a stake in what happens to Taiwan, whether we want it or not.

Quote:

it is Chinese territory and I have no desire to get involved in yet another country's civil war. Would we allow a rogue state within our borders? If Texas started telling the rest of the country and the world that they are a sovereign nation and the true United States, and kept trying to get support for that falsehood, how long do you think we would put up with that?

Yeah, no. The equivalent is not Texas but the Philippines. It was once US territory, but hasn't been for decades now. We would be wrong to assert a claim, and other countries would be right to back Philippine independence against our claim.

[The Great Zaganza]

I would put Taiwan rather in the Hawaii category of territories: definitely not part of the mainland, with an indigenous population that is seriously not Chinese.
There is no historical claim China has on Taiwan beyond conquest, and they lost it in the cultural revolution.
This is not easy/west Germany.