[Continuation] The behaviour of US police officers - part 2 - Page 12

lobosrul5 · 20th July 2021, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

//Slight hijack, but it does fall into the general topic/theme of the thread//

I actually think that's slightly backwards. As in there's a lot more people in LEO positions who got shoved in the metaphorical locker back in 4th grade than who did the shoving.

There's a lot more "Let me see you give me a purple nurple now Jimmy Glick from Ms. Rosenstein's biology class!" in the attitude of cops than not.

Seems extremely unlikely to me. Most of the patrols cops here are in good shape, athletic types. Not the nerdy or fat kid that was picked on, more like ex-football player.

Thermal · 20th July 2021, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Or, from a different perspective, you want to help the community by making it safer

...by controlling people and being violent to them against their will. It may be well-intentioned, but the job description is to be the Hammer.

Quote:

It'd be like saying people doctors only because they want to either make a lot of money or fondle people's genitals.

What were you just saying on another thread about strawmen?

A doctor's tools and training are dominated by diagnoses and treatment. A cop's are dominated by retaining, hurting, and killing people.

SuburbanTurkey · 20th July 2021, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

You don't become a cop unless you want to control others and be violent to them against their will. It's kind of in the job description.

Sure, I've met plenty of bouncers that enjoy getting rowdy too.

The difference is that bouncers don't have the expectation of total impunity, so that usually tempers their sadism a bit.

Slowly crushing people to death seems to be a uniquely cop form of torture.

SuburbanTurkey · 22nd July 2021, 04:39 AM

NYPD is full of antivaxxers.

Quote:

The nation’s largest police force is still struggling to get its cops vaccinated against COVID-19 — with the latest figures showing just 43 percent have gotten the jab, The Post has learned

https://nypost.com/2021/07/21/nypd-l...riant-spreads/

SuburbanTurkey · 22nd July 2021, 04:57 AM

US Congressional Rep calling for DOJ to investigate LASD deputy gang.

Quote:

Rep. Maxine Waters on Wednesday requested that the U.S. Department of Justice investigate allegations that a violent gang of deputies called the Executioners runs operations at the Los Angeles County sheriff’s Compton station.

“I ask that the DOJ take two immediate actions: launch an independent investigation into the existence of the ‘Executioners,’ both at the LASD Compton station and within the greater LASD community, and launch a pattern or practice investigation into the Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department for potential civil rights and constitutional violations,” Waters (D-Los Angeles) wrote in a letter to the Atty. Gen. Merrick Garland and Asst. Atty. Gen. Kristen Clarke.

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...-investigation

Armitage72 · 22nd July 2021, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

US Congressional Rep calling for DOJ to investigate LASD deputy gang.

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...-investigation

There was a scene in the science fiction series "Falling Skies" in which a character sarcastically asked a black man if he had been in a gang before the alien invasion. The man responded "The baddest gang around. The Boston PD."
It was meant as a joke then.

Belz... · 22nd July 2021, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

...by controlling people and being violent to them against their will.

No. You're just wrong. Most police officers seldom have to resort to any kind of violence.

Quote:

It may be well-intentioned, but the job description is to be the Hammer.

If it's well-intentioned then they don't want to control and be violent.

bluesjnr · 22nd July 2021, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Most police officers seldom have to resort to any kind of violence.

And yet so many do... at the merest opportunity.

ZiprHead · 22nd July 2021, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

What is your evidence for this?

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

It's right next to the exact same evidence that cops are grown up high school bullies. Go find it.

When I was in college, medical field, on the first day of one of my classes the teacher asked us why we were taking the class. One of the guys in the class said he was originally in criminal law (or whatever it was called). He wanted to be a cop.

He said he dropped that major and went into medical because most all of his classmates were either the high school bullies and wanted to continue doing so, or they were the bullied and were now seeking payback. He said the thought of sitting next to these guys eight hours a day every day sickened him.

mgidm86 · 22nd July 2021, 06:49 PM

I think it is probably the job that makes the cop a bully in a lot of cases. Power corrupts and all that. I know two people who became cops. One wasn't a bully in school or picked on. He was big but a decent dude. I could see the job changing him though. I think his Dad was a cop. Smallish town.

The other, a super nice guy I've known since his birth. Intelligent and thoughtful.

I have no idea what they are like now.

I think many types of people become cops which is why not all cops are Derek Chauvin. It is easy to get carried away though when you have authority, and it probably also depends on where you work...big city, small town...

Aridas · 22nd July 2021, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

And yet so many do... at the merest opportunity.

Too many, perhaps, but it's likely not wrong to consider the problematically violent offenders to be a relatively small minority that gets oversized attention for obvious reasons. With that said, focusing on the violent offenders, specifically, makes it far too easy to overlook how lots of the cops who are not violent offenders and too much of the judicial system go out of their way to protect the violent offenders from receiving real consequences for their offenses.

gnome · 23rd July 2021, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Too many, perhaps, but it's likely not wrong to consider the problematically violent offenders to be a relatively small minority that gets oversized attention for obvious reasons. With that said, focusing on the violent offenders, specifically, makes it far too easy to overlook how lots of the cops who are not violent offenders and too much of the judicial system go out of their way to protect the violent offenders from receiving real consequences for their offenses.

That, and screening is only part of the solution. How police are trained and the effectiveness of accountability methods will almost certainly change the behavior of officers. Police are not divided into good and bad. Just like anyone else, they have impulses from both, in varying amounts, and what is reinforced is what will emerge most. Behavior that is successful will be repeated. So it's a huge mistake to treat it as a sorting task without paying attention to how the job itself affects their choices.

A reformed institution and policing culture could see a "good cop" made of someone who would otherwise end their career in a courtroom on TV.

Belz... · 23rd July 2021, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

And yet so many do... at the merest opportunity.

It's easy to say that when you look at select events rather than statistics. You know that most police officers never draw their gun in the course of their careers? And that the US isn't the only country in the world?

quadraginta · 23rd July 2021, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

It's easy to say that when you look at select events rather than statistics. You know that most police officers never draw their gun in the course of their careers? And that the US isn't the only country in the world?

I understand what you are saying, here. But I don't see how it is relevant.

The point isn't to try and find solutions to improve the behavior of cops who are already behaving well. It is to find solutions to stop the ones who aren't.

Whether those cops comprise a majority of the forces or not is hardly important. They exist, and the numbers, however small, are not inconsequential.

Worse still, they exist within a system which has been designed to protect them from their actions, which can do little to dissuade others from embarking on the same path.

Then, also, these cops you talk about who do behave well do not seem inclined to do anything to improve the situation. Quite the opposite. They close ranks and defend the worst among them.

How good is that sort of behavior? In my opinion that makes them accessories. Perhaps not equally guilty, but their hands are far from clean.

Belz... · 23rd July 2021, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

I understand what you are saying, here. But I don't see how it is relevant.

The point isn't to try and find solutions to improve the behavior of cops who are already behaving well. It is to find solutions to stop the ones who aren't.

But that's not what I was addressing. I was initially responding to Thermal's claim that all people who become cops want to control people through violence. That's simply not true.

TomB · 23rd July 2021, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

Then, also, these cops you talk about who do behave well do not seem inclined to do anything to improve the situation. Quite the opposite. They close ranks and defend the worst among them.

How good is that sort of behavior? In my opinion that makes them accessories. Perhaps not equally guilty, but their hands are far from clean.

I think this is a situation that has to be addressed, but I'm not sure how. So maybe examine why cops either cover or turn a blind eye to the transgressions of their fellow officers. I think it might be a little simplistic to just label them complicit and blame it all on police culture. Let me explain before you start yelling....

No one likes a tattle-tale. That's ingrained in us from grade school up. The kid who tells on another kid is seen in as much (or more) of a negative light than the kid who was doing something wrong.

The movie "Scent of a Woman" comes to mind. Al Pacino's speech begins with "But not a snitch!" and then goes on to talk about integrity. It's a bit more complex than that, but being a "snitch" is not associated with integrity. At least not on the surface. (I know, there's more to it in the movie.)

In other careers, most people don't want to inform on their colleagues either, for reasons that, in my opinion, go back to grade school. No one wants to be the outsider in the group. And the group doesn't trust the person who rats on Joe, even if the group doesn't like or trust Joe or the things Joe does either. Of course, stealing office supplies, snooping through the Boss's desk, or even faking numbers in a time report are of a different magnitude than what we are talking about here. But still, it applies.

Perhaps, more so, actually. If you're a snitch at the office, no one talks to you at the water cooler and you aren't included in lunch plans. And yes, that sucks and leads people to find new jobs. (It's probably why harassment is often not reported.) But for a police officer or a soldier, you might find yourself in situations where you are depending on people who don't trust you and who, as a result of reciprocity, you don't trust either.

I didn't write the above to in any way excuse the officers who don't report their fellows. I often rant to my wife that other officers present are accomplices. In my mind, the correct thing to do, having just witnessed another officer commit a crime, is to cuff him and put him in the back of the car like any other criminal. (I also recognize that this isn't particularly practical.)

But if you want to address the silence of other officers, you have to recognize where it comes from and I don't think it's unique to police culture.

In theory, body cameras should help because they would not only record the crime, but make it so that witnessing officers have little choice but to speak up or at least speak the truth when confronted.

Babbylonian · 23rd July 2021, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

But that's not what I was addressing. I was initially responding to Thermal's claim that all people who become cops want to control people through violence. That's simply not true.

It's untrue and profoundly unhelpful when trying to figure out how to fix the problem. A police culture has been built up wherein cops are trained to see themselves as being at war, a war in which they can only trust their colleagues and everyone else is an enemy combatant.

gnome · 23rd July 2021, 11:14 AM

Just as in any career, we have to try and normalize a line of "too far". The stakes are higher in policing, of course. Fudge a time report and it doesn't have to be anyone else's business on your team, and if it causes a problem for the team I can see preferring to settle it without escalating it to management or whatever. That makes total sense.

Plant evidence on a suspect--too far. The public mistrust built from that can have deadly consequences, even if caring about the suspect's screwed up life isn't on the table. People should be afraid of being rejected by their own teammates for stuff like that.

How to get there from here? I don't know. Too often "snitches get stitches" is a sociopath's shield from consequences.

Belz... · 23rd July 2021, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Babbylonian

It's untrue

It's untrue that most police officers never need to use their guns? It's untrue that most police officers rarely have to use force in the line of duty?

Quote:

and profoundly unhelpful when trying to figure out how to fix the problem.

Maybe you missed what I said in the post you quoted, but I was addressing a specific claim about the reason why people become cops. You're for some reason trying to make it about something else.

Quote:

A police culture has been built up wherein cops are trained to see themselves as being at war, a war in which they can only trust their colleagues and everyone else is an enemy combatant.

I'm not denying that there's a serious problem with law enforcement in the US. I'm disagreeing with thermal that people always become police officers in order to violently control people. It's a ridiculous hyperbole.

Babbylonian · 23rd July 2021, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

It's untrue that most police officers never need to use their guns? It's untrue that most police officers rarely have to use force in the line of duty?

Maybe you missed what I said in the post you quoted, but I was addressing a specific claim about the reason why people become cops. You're for some reason trying to make it about something else.

I'm not denying that there's a serious problem with law enforcement in the US. I'm disagreeing with thermal that people always become police officers in order to violently control people. It's a ridiculous hyperbole.

I was agreeing with you. Does that change your interpretation of what I wrote?

Checkmite · 24th July 2021, 03:36 PM

Wow

I can't wait to hear the excuses!

mgidm86 · 24th July 2021, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Wow

I can't wait to hear the excuses!

It was the wind.

That cop should be put in jail for that. If not for the video the guy could have his entire life ruined at the whim of this, or any, cop. He still could for all we know. This is a big deal.

Captain_Swoop · 24th July 2021, 06:09 PM

Lots of comments along the lines of

"We need more context than this. "

"Could simply be that he just took that off the driver and was placing it on the seat for safe keeping."

Checkmite · 25th July 2021, 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Lots of comments along the lines of

"We need more context than this. "

"Could simply be that he just took that off the driver and was placing it on the seat for safe keeping."

This feels like the right place for the old "laughing dog" emote?

Delphic Oracle · 25th July 2021, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Lots of comments along the lines of

"We need more context than this. "

"Could simply be that he just took that off the driver and was placing it on the seat for safe keeping."

In my experience (*cough*) such evidence retrieved from a vehicle goes on the hood of the cruiser right in front of the camera.

Also, they don't start the search with the occupant(s) still in the car.

ETA: Also, the gloves go on before any of that.

Belz... · 25th July 2021, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by Babbylonian

I was agreeing with you. Does that change your interpretation of what I wrote?

Maybe. I have to sleep on it.

bonzombiekitty · 25th July 2021, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by mgidm86

It was the wind.

That cop should be put in jail for that. If not for the video the guy could have his entire life ruined at the whim of this, or any, cop. He still could for all we know. This is a big deal.

On the other end of things, getting caught planting drugs throws every other previous conviction that came about as the result of him finding drugs in the car are in question. A lot of legitimately guilty people could go free.

Checkmite · 25th July 2021, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty

On the other end of things, getting caught planting drugs throws every other previous conviction that came about as the result of him finding drugs in the car are in question. A lot of legitimately guilty people could go free.

You would think that this fact - and it is an important fact - would lead even thin-blue-line types to take a hard stance against these kinds of corrupt cops, but more often than not in my experience they either blame the person who caught them or the system for delegitimizing all of his police work after "just one incident" of deliberately framing an innocent person.

Checkmite · 25th July 2021, 12:01 PM

The Caledonia police have released a statement saying that while the officer shouldn't have thrown anything into the vehicle, the bag he threw ultimately didn't have drugs in it and therefore cannot be a case of planting evidence. According to the police department, body camera video "which will be released soon", shows the police finding the empty bag in the driver's pocket while searching him, but verifying that the bag is empty. It is not explained why, of all the possessions in the driver's pockets, only the empty bag specifically was handed to another police officer who then carried it up to the car and threw it into the back seat.

The police department is also still "investigating" why the driver of the vehicle was handcuffed after being searched (not shown in the video) even after a search of his person didn't reveal any illegal items. The stop was a speeding stop, allegedly.

gnome · 25th July 2021, 12:16 PM

Someone on the comments page of that police department's facebook noted that the "empty" bag might have traces of something that will allow them to bring charges. They speculate that it was exactly an attempt to plant something, but it was changed to their excuses when the officer realized he was being filmed.

Aridas · 25th July 2021, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by gnome

Someone on the comments page of that police department's facebook noted that the "empty" bag might have traces of something that will allow them to bring charges. They speculate that it was exactly an attempt to plant something, but it was changed to their excuses when the officer realized he was being filmed.

Indeed. For that matter, though, even if there was nothing technically "illegal" in the bag and no charges were actually made, it could still very easily be used as a pretext for extortion and harassment. That there was nothing technically "illegal" in it just offers them a way out. It was practically a textbook example of something being planted, it's just that the particular plan afterwords is not known.

chrispy · 25th July 2021, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Indeed. For that matter, though, even if there was nothing technically "illegal" in the bag and no charges were actually made, it could still very easily be used as a pretext for extortion and harassment. That there was nothing technically "illegal" in it just offers them a way out. It was practically a textbook example of something being planted, it's just that the particular plan afterwords is not known.

Or more likely as a pretext for a non-consensual search of the vehicle in the hopes of actually finding contraband. This seems rather likely to me as the officer turned his body in a manner so that the throwing of the bag was not visible on his BWC.

Checkmite · 25th July 2021, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by chrispy

Or more likely as a pretext for a non-consensual search of the vehicle in the hopes of actually finding contraband. This seems rather likely to me as the officer turned his body in a manner so that the throwing of the bag was not visible on his BWC.

This is my feeling too. Puts on his gloves, takes a look in the car because the door is open, sees an alleged "corner cut" bag on the seat - right next to a lighter, even - which even if empty, creates probable cause.

Aridas · 25th July 2021, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by chrispy

Or more likely as a pretext for a non-consensual search of the vehicle in the hopes of actually finding contraband. This seems rather likely to me as the officer turned his body in a manner so that the throwing of the bag was not visible on his BWC.

I'd count that as included under harassment, personally.

chrispy · 25th July 2021, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

I'd count that as included under harassment, personally.

Fair enough. Won't argue with that.

PhantomWolf · 25th July 2021, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

And yet so many do... at the merest opportunity.

I suspect that there is somewhat a sample bias in this. The headline "Nice cop gives motorist warning and wishes them a pleasant day." just doesn't sell papers.

It's like suspecting all teachers of being pedophiles because of the many headlines about the ones that are.

mgidm86 · 25th July 2021, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty

On the other end of things, getting caught planting drugs throws every other previous conviction that came about as the result of him finding drugs in the car are in question. A lot of legitimately guilty people could go free.

Or a lot of innocents

gnome · 25th July 2021, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

I suspect that there is somewhat a sample bias in this. The headline "Nice cop gives motorist warning and wishes them a pleasant day." just doesn't sell papers.

It's like suspecting all teachers of being pedophiles because of the many headlines about the ones that are.

There is. But usually the real story is how the organization reacts. Do they clean house or do they protect the organization at the expense of additional victims down the road?

bonzombiekitty · 25th July 2021, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by mgidm86

Or a lot of innocents

That's a given. That's why I said "on the other end of things".... For those sort of people who think that the end justify the means. I.e. "he didn't have drugs on him, but I KNOW he's a dealer so I planted them to get him off the street"

If your primary concern is that the bad guys go to jail, so you'd look the other way if it meant bad guys going to jail, then this sort of action means a lot of actual bad guys may go free.

SuburbanTurkey · 26th July 2021, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Dashcam video shows Detroit police officers flee from shooting happening in front of them

Quote:

The victim who be seen here in the blue shirt was struck but survived.

A sedan pulled up in front of him, a man in the back seat hung outside the window and opened fire with a semi-automatic rifle. All of it was captured on police dashcam.

The officers drove off, but at some point turned back around to help the victim.

Seems there's a lot of begging the question when it comes to the idea that flooding the streets with cops will actually prevent violent crime. Driving away from an active shooting is probably not a good PR move for these departments desperately trying to justify their bloated budgets.

20th July 2021, 11:39 AM	#441
lobosrul5 Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 4,169	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue //Slight hijack, but it does fall into the general topic/theme of the thread// I actually think that's slightly backwards. As in there's a lot more people in LEO positions who got shoved in the metaphorical locker back in 4th grade than who did the shoving. There's a lot more "Let me see you give me a purple nurple now Jimmy Glick from Ms. Rosenstein's biology class!" in the attitude of cops than not. Seems extremely unlikely to me. Most of the patrols cops here are in good shape, athletic types. Not the nerdy or fat kid that was picked on, more like ex-football player.
lobosrul5 Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 4,169

20th July 2021, 12:55 PM	#442
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,253	Originally Posted by Belz... Or, from a different perspective, you want to help the community by making it safer ...by controlling people and being violent to them against their will. It may be well-intentioned, but the job description is to be the Hammer. Quote: It'd be like saying people doctors only because they want to either make a lot of money or fondle people's genitals. What were you just saying on another thread about strawmen? A doctor's tools and training are dominated by diagnoses and treatment. A cop's are dominated by retaining, hurting, and killing people.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

22nd July 2021, 05:49 AM	#447
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by Thermal ...by controlling people and being violent to them against their will. No. You're just wrong. Most police officers seldom have to resort to any kind of violence. Quote: It may be well-intentioned, but the job description is to be the Hammer. If it's well-intentioned then they don't want to control and be violent.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

22nd July 2021, 01:22 PM	#448
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Home. Posts: 10,830	Originally Posted by Belz... Most police officers seldom have to resort to any kind of violence. And yet so many do... at the merest opportunity.
	__________________ "OTP? I don' need no steenkin' OTP!"

22nd July 2021, 04:22 PM	#449
ZiprHead Muse Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sag-Nasty Posts: 879	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop What is your evidence for this? Originally Posted by JoeMorgue It's right next to the exact same evidence that cops are grown up high school bullies. Go find it. When I was in college, medical field, on the first day of one of my classes the teacher asked us why we were taking the class. One of the guys in the class said he was originally in criminal law (or whatever it was called). He wanted to be a cop. He said he dropped that major and went into medical because most all of his classmates were either the high school bullies and wanted to continue doing so, or they were the bullied and were now seeking payback. He said the thought of sitting next to these guys eight hours a day every day sickened him.
	__________________ When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy. IIDB is back, baby!

20th July 2021, 12:58 PM	#443
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by Thermal You don't become a cop unless you want to control others and be violent to them against their will. It's kind of in the job description. Sure, I've met plenty of bouncers that enjoy getting rowdy too. The difference is that bouncers don't have the expectation of total impunity, so that usually tempers their sadism a bit. Slowly crushing people to death seems to be a uniquely cop form of torture.

22nd July 2021, 04:39 AM	#444
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	NYPD is full of antivaxxers. Quote: The nation’s largest police force is still struggling to get its cops vaccinated against COVID-19 — with the latest figures showing just 43 percent have gotten the jab, The Post has learned https://nypost.com/2021/07/21/nypd-l...riant-spreads/

22nd July 2021, 04:57 AM	#445
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	US Congressional Rep calling for DOJ to investigate LASD deputy gang. Quote: Rep. Maxine Waters on Wednesday requested that the U.S. Department of Justice investigate allegations that a violent gang of deputies called the Executioners runs operations at the Los Angeles County sheriff’s Compton station. “I ask that the DOJ take two immediate actions: launch an independent investigation into the existence of the ‘Executioners,’ both at the LASD Compton station and within the greater LASD community, and launch a pattern or practice investigation into the Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department for potential civil rights and constitutional violations,” Waters (D-Los Angeles) wrote in a letter to the Atty. Gen. Merrick Garland and Asst. Atty. Gen. Kristen Clarke. https://www.latimes.com/california/s...-investigation

22nd July 2021, 05:38 AM	#446
Armitage72 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 7,568	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey US Congressional Rep calling for DOJ to investigate LASD deputy gang. https://www.latimes.com/california/s...-investigation There was a scene in the science fiction series "Falling Skies" in which a character sarcastically asked a black man if he had been in a gang before the alien invasion. The man responded "The baddest gang around. The Boston PD." It was meant as a joke then.

22nd July 2021, 06:49 PM	#450
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,542	I think it is probably the job that makes the cop a bully in a lot of cases. Power corrupts and all that. I know two people who became cops. One wasn't a bully in school or picked on. He was big but a decent dude. I could see the job changing him though. I think his Dad was a cop. Smallish town. The other, a super nice guy I've known since his birth. Intelligent and thoughtful. I have no idea what they are like now. I think many types of people become cops which is why not all cops are Derek Chauvin. It is easy to get carried away though when you have authority, and it probably also depends on where you work...big city, small town...
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,542

22nd July 2021, 09:09 PM	#451
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 9,643	Originally Posted by bluesjnr And yet so many do... at the merest opportunity. Too many, perhaps, but it's likely not wrong to consider the problematically violent offenders to be a relatively small minority that gets oversized attention for obvious reasons. With that said, focusing on the violent offenders, specifically, makes it far too easy to overlook how lots of the cops who are not violent offenders and too much of the judicial system go out of their way to protect the violent offenders from receiving real consequences for their offenses.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

23rd July 2021, 05:21 AM	#452
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,513	Originally Posted by Aridas Too many, perhaps, but it's likely not wrong to consider the problematically violent offenders to be a relatively small minority that gets oversized attention for obvious reasons. With that said, focusing on the violent offenders, specifically, makes it far too easy to overlook how lots of the cops who are not violent offenders and too much of the judicial system go out of their way to protect the violent offenders from receiving real consequences for their offenses. That, and screening is only part of the solution. How police are trained and the effectiveness of accountability methods will almost certainly change the behavior of officers. Police are not divided into good and bad. Just like anyone else, they have impulses from both, in varying amounts, and what is reinforced is what will emerge most. Behavior that is successful will be repeated. So it's a huge mistake to treat it as a sorting task without paying attention to how the job itself affects their choices. A reformed institution and policing culture could see a "good cop" made of someone who would otherwise end their career in a courtroom on TV.
	__________________ Last edited by gnome; 23rd July 2021 at 05:22 AM.

23rd July 2021, 06:19 AM	#453
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by bluesjnr And yet so many do... at the merest opportunity. It's easy to say that when you look at select events rather than statistics. You know that most police officers never draw their gun in the course of their careers? And that the US isn't the only country in the world?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

23rd July 2021, 09:56 AM	#454
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,614	Originally Posted by Belz... It's easy to say that when you look at select events rather than statistics. You know that most police officers never draw their gun in the course of their careers? And that the US isn't the only country in the world? I understand what you are saying, here. But I don't see how it is relevant. The point isn't to try and find solutions to improve the behavior of cops who are already behaving well. It is to find solutions to stop the ones who aren't. Whether those cops comprise a majority of the forces or not is hardly important. They exist, and the numbers, however small, are not inconsequential. Worse still, they exist within a system which has been designed to protect them from their actions, which can do little to dissuade others from embarking on the same path. Then, also, these cops you talk about who do behave well do not seem inclined to do anything to improve the situation. Quite the opposite. They close ranks and defend the worst among them. How good is that sort of behavior? In my opinion that makes them accessories. Perhaps not equally guilty, but their hands are far from clean.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

23rd July 2021, 10:04 AM	#455
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by quadraginta I understand what you are saying, here. But I don't see how it is relevant. The point isn't to try and find solutions to improve the behavior of cops who are already behaving well. It is to find solutions to stop the ones who aren't. But that's not what I was addressing. I was initially responding to Thermal's claim that all people who become cops want to control people through violence. That's simply not true.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

23rd July 2021, 11:00 AM	#456
TomB Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 1,437	Originally Posted by quadraginta Then, also, these cops you talk about who do behave well do not seem inclined to do anything to improve the situation. Quite the opposite. They close ranks and defend the worst among them. How good is that sort of behavior? In my opinion that makes them accessories. Perhaps not equally guilty, but their hands are far from clean. I think this is a situation that has to be addressed, but I'm not sure how. So maybe examine why cops either cover or turn a blind eye to the transgressions of their fellow officers. I think it might be a little simplistic to just label them complicit and blame it all on police culture. Let me explain before you start yelling.... No one likes a tattle-tale. That's ingrained in us from grade school up. The kid who tells on another kid is seen in as much (or more) of a negative light than the kid who was doing something wrong. The movie "Scent of a Woman" comes to mind. Al Pacino's speech begins with "But not a snitch!" and then goes on to talk about integrity. It's a bit more complex than that, but being a "snitch" is not associated with integrity. At least not on the surface. (I know, there's more to it in the movie.) In other careers, most people don't want to inform on their colleagues either, for reasons that, in my opinion, go back to grade school. No one wants to be the outsider in the group. And the group doesn't trust the person who rats on Joe, even if the group doesn't like or trust Joe or the things Joe does either. Of course, stealing office supplies, snooping through the Boss's desk, or even faking numbers in a time report are of a different magnitude than what we are talking about here. But still, it applies. Perhaps, more so, actually. If you're a snitch at the office, no one talks to you at the water cooler and you aren't included in lunch plans. And yes, that sucks and leads people to find new jobs. (It's probably why harassment is often not reported.) But for a police officer or a soldier, you might find yourself in situations where you are depending on people who don't trust you and who, as a result of reciprocity, you don't trust either. I didn't write the above to in any way excuse the officers who don't report their fellows. I often rant to my wife that other officers present are accomplices. In my mind, the correct thing to do, having just witnessed another officer commit a crime, is to cuff him and put him in the back of the car like any other criminal. (I also recognize that this isn't particularly practical.) But if you want to address the silence of other officers, you have to recognize where it comes from and I don't think it's unique to police culture. In theory, body cameras should help because they would not only record the crime, but make it so that witnessing officers have little choice but to speak up or at least speak the truth when confronted.
TomB Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 1,437

23rd July 2021, 11:06 AM	#457
Babbylonian Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 13,988	Originally Posted by Belz... But that's not what I was addressing. I was initially responding to Thermal's claim that all people who become cops want to control people through violence. That's simply not true. It's untrue and profoundly unhelpful when trying to figure out how to fix the problem. A police culture has been built up wherein cops are trained to see themselves as being at war, a war in which they can only trust their colleagues and everyone else is an enemy combatant.

23rd July 2021, 11:14 AM	#458
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,513	Just as in any career, we have to try and normalize a line of "too far". The stakes are higher in policing, of course. Fudge a time report and it doesn't have to be anyone else's business on your team, and if it causes a problem for the team I can see preferring to settle it without escalating it to management or whatever. That makes total sense. Plant evidence on a suspect--too far. The public mistrust built from that can have deadly consequences, even if caring about the suspect's screwed up life isn't on the table. People should be afraid of being rejected by their own teammates for stuff like that. How to get there from here? I don't know. Too often "snitches get stitches" is a sociopath's shield from consequences.
	__________________

23rd July 2021, 11:15 AM	#459
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by Babbylonian It's untrue It's untrue that most police officers never need to use their guns? It's untrue that most police officers rarely have to use force in the line of duty? Quote: and profoundly unhelpful when trying to figure out how to fix the problem. Maybe you missed what I said in the post you quoted, but I was addressing a specific claim about the reason why people become cops. You're for some reason trying to make it about something else. Quote: A police culture has been built up wherein cops are trained to see themselves as being at war, a war in which they can only trust their colleagues and everyone else is an enemy combatant. I'm not denying that there's a serious problem with law enforcement in the US. I'm disagreeing with thermal that people always become police officers in order to violently control people. It's a ridiculous hyperbole.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

23rd July 2021, 12:25 PM	#460
Babbylonian Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 13,988	Originally Posted by Belz... It's untrue that most police officers never need to use their guns? It's untrue that most police officers rarely have to use force in the line of duty? Maybe you missed what I said in the post you quoted, but I was addressing a specific claim about the reason why people become cops. You're for some reason trying to make it about something else. I'm not denying that there's a serious problem with law enforcement in the US. I'm disagreeing with thermal that people always become police officers in order to violently control people. It's a ridiculous hyperbole. I was agreeing with you. Does that change your interpretation of what I wrote?

24th July 2021, 03:36 PM	#461
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 28,002	Wow I can't wait to hear the excuses!
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

24th July 2021, 05:10 PM	#462
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,542	Originally Posted by Checkmite Wow I can't wait to hear the excuses! It was the wind. That cop should be put in jail for that. If not for the video the guy could have his entire life ruined at the whim of this, or any, cop. He still could for all we know. This is a big deal.
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,542	Last edited by mgidm86; 24th July 2021 at 05:11 PM.

24th July 2021, 06:09 PM	#463
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Lots of comments along the lines of "We need more context than this. " "Could simply be that he just took that off the driver and was placing it on the seat for safe keeping."

25th July 2021, 02:10 AM	#464
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 28,002	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Lots of comments along the lines of "We need more context than this. " "Could simply be that he just took that off the driver and was placing it on the seat for safe keeping." This feels like the right place for the old "laughing dog" emote?
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

25th July 2021, 06:47 AM	#465
Delphic Oracle Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 6,286	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Lots of comments along the lines of "We need more context than this. " "Could simply be that he just took that off the driver and was placing it on the seat for safe keeping." In my experience (cough) such evidence retrieved from a vehicle goes on the hood of the cruiser right in front of the camera. Also, they don't start the search with the occupant(s) still in the car. ETA: Also, the gloves go on before any of that.
	Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 25th July 2021 at 06:50 AM.

25th July 2021, 07:56 AM	#466
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by Babbylonian I was agreeing with you. Does that change your interpretation of what I wrote? Maybe. I have to sleep on it.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

25th July 2021, 10:40 AM	#467
bonzombiekitty Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 1,845	Originally Posted by mgidm86 It was the wind. That cop should be put in jail for that. If not for the video the guy could have his entire life ruined at the whim of this, or any, cop. He still could for all we know. This is a big deal. On the other end of things, getting caught planting drugs throws every other previous conviction that came about as the result of him finding drugs in the car are in question. A lot of legitimately guilty people could go free.

25th July 2021, 11:36 AM	#468
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 28,002	Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty On the other end of things, getting caught planting drugs throws every other previous conviction that came about as the result of him finding drugs in the car are in question. A lot of legitimately guilty people could go free. You would think that this fact - and it is an important fact - would lead even thin-blue-line types to take a hard stance against these kinds of corrupt cops, but more often than not in my experience they either blame the person who caught them or the system for delegitimizing all of his police work after "just one incident" of deliberately framing an innocent person.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

25th July 2021, 12:01 PM	#469
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 28,002	The Caledonia police have released a statement saying that while the officer shouldn't have thrown anything into the vehicle, the bag he threw ultimately didn't have drugs in it and therefore cannot be a case of planting evidence. According to the police department, body camera video "which will be released soon", shows the police finding the empty bag in the driver's pocket while searching him, but verifying that the bag is empty. It is not explained why, of all the possessions in the driver's pockets, only the empty bag specifically was handed to another police officer who then carried it up to the car and threw it into the back seat. The police department is also still "investigating" why the driver of the vehicle was handcuffed after being searched (not shown in the video) even after a search of his person didn't reveal any illegal items. The stop was a speeding stop, allegedly.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

25th July 2021, 12:16 PM	#470
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,513	Someone on the comments page of that police department's facebook noted that the "empty" bag might have traces of something that will allow them to bring charges. They speculate that it was exactly an attempt to plant something, but it was changed to their excuses when the officer realized he was being filmed.
	__________________

25th July 2021, 12:54 PM	#471
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 9,643	Originally Posted by gnome Someone on the comments page of that police department's facebook noted that the "empty" bag might have traces of something that will allow them to bring charges. They speculate that it was exactly an attempt to plant something, but it was changed to their excuses when the officer realized he was being filmed. Indeed. For that matter, though, even if there was nothing technically "illegal" in the bag and no charges were actually made, it could still very easily be used as a pretext for extortion and harassment. That there was nothing technically "illegal" in it just offers them a way out. It was practically a textbook example of something being planted, it's just that the particular plan afterwords is not known.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 25th July 2021 at 12:56 PM.

25th July 2021, 02:58 PM	#472
chrispy Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Solola, Guatemala Posts: 1,173	Originally Posted by Aridas Indeed. For that matter, though, even if there was nothing technically "illegal" in the bag and no charges were actually made, it could still very easily be used as a pretext for extortion and harassment. That there was nothing technically "illegal" in it just offers them a way out. It was practically a textbook example of something being planted, it's just that the particular plan afterwords is not known. Or more likely as a pretext for a non-consensual search of the vehicle in the hopes of actually finding contraband. This seems rather likely to me as the officer turned his body in a manner so that the throwing of the bag was not visible on his BWC.
	__________________ Just a spec in the Spectrum...

25th July 2021, 03:13 PM	#473
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 28,002	Originally Posted by chrispy Or more likely as a pretext for a non-consensual search of the vehicle in the hopes of actually finding contraband. This seems rather likely to me as the officer turned his body in a manner so that the throwing of the bag was not visible on his BWC. This is my feeling too. Puts on his gloves, takes a look in the car because the door is open, sees an alleged "corner cut" bag on the seat - right next to a lighter, even - which even if empty, creates probable cause.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

25th July 2021, 03:24 PM	#474
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 9,643	Originally Posted by chrispy Or more likely as a pretext for a non-consensual search of the vehicle in the hopes of actually finding contraband. This seems rather likely to me as the officer turned his body in a manner so that the throwing of the bag was not visible on his BWC. I'd count that as included under harassment, personally.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

25th July 2021, 03:45 PM	#475
chrispy Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Solola, Guatemala Posts: 1,173	Originally Posted by Aridas I'd count that as included under harassment, personally. Fair enough. Won't argue with that.
	__________________ Just a spec in the Spectrum...