Continuation The behaviour of US police officers - part 2

[bruto]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

The officer himself is also brown... but geez I'm skeptical. When that type of accident happens IMO its one of lack of basic knowledge, drugs/alcohol, you weren't actually cleaning it but were showing off.

Did it happen in his apartment or at a gun range? Or out on the street? Forensics can likely tell if it was fired once or twice.

Mind you I'm only guessing here but I'm guessing a single shot because it's not that hard to imagine the boundless stupidity and carelessness it would entail, while it's harder to imagine a cop shooting himself when a simple flat-out lie would probably have worked as well.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by sarge

Impossible to prove of course, but I consider it likely that the self-inflicted hand would occurred after he shot the brown guy.

As a former member of the US military... Do you have an idea what sort of penalty one would expect for a negligent discharge that killed a bystander? US cops seems to pretend that they are in a war so should be held to at least the standards of the US military.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by jimbob

As a former member of the US military... Do you have an idea what sort of penalty one would expect for a negligent discharge that killed a bystander? US cops seems to pretend that they are in a war so should be held to at least the standards of the US military.

I don't know in the US civilian world how often do regular people who kill someone in a gun accident get charged? I know no one was in an accidental shooting at a ny shooting range a few years ago.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

I don't know in the US civilian world how often do regular people who kill someone in a gun accident get charged? I know no one was in an accidental shooting at a ny shooting range a few years ago.

I tried doing some research on that subject after the Alec Baldwin incident and I couldn't find hard numbers. But... it seemed to me, that the answer is pretty damned rarely. In fact I could only find a couple of stories where charges had been filed.

[Checkmite]

Kenneth Vinyard, 48, was killed after he and his fiance witnessed a shooting in a Pennsylvania Walmart parking lot over the weekend.

The exact circumstances of the shooting itself are unclear, aside from that Vinyard and his fiance initially weren't involved and did not know the victim. Nevertheless, Vinyard had quickly begun to administer first aid to the man who had been shot, when a second unidentified man approached, who ordered Vinyard to "step back", and then shoved Vinyard so hard that he fell and struck his head on the concrete, sustaining trauma serious enough that his fiance had to begin chest compressions as he had no pulse.

At the scene, after fatally injuring Vinyard, the man identified himself to Vinyard's fiance as a plainclothes Center Township police officer. Vinyard was later pronounced dead at the hospital. The state police are investigating but aren't releasing any details about the incident. An attorney for Vinyard's family is demanding the officer involved be criminally charged.

[Nessie]

In this graphic footage, a cop shoots a male attacking a female with a knife. My questions are about the shots fired. The cop has a handgun, he fires the first shot when the male is still on top of the female and he then fires about 15 times into the male, who is still moving.

How is that possible, to fire so many times, at close range and not instantly kill?

Why keep on firing, when the police's job is to arrest, not summarily execute?

https://twitter.com/720threat/status...72352297709569

[Skeptic Tank]

Originally Posted by Nessie

How is that possible, to fire so many times, at close range and not instantly kill?

Because it's a 9mm and the assailant may have been on drugs or just the locations they hit, some combination of the above. This is part of why police are trained to keep firing until the threat ends.

Originally Posted by Nessie

Why keep on firing, when the police's job is to arrest, not summarily execute?

Because, as stated above, they are trained to keep firing until the threat ends. If someone has a gun or a knife and is presenting as a threat to the officer or to other civilians, their training dictates that the threat must be stopped. If the person drops the weapon when ordered to, then there is an opportunity to arrest them. If they continue to attack or approach another with the weapon, indicating an ongoing intent to harm, then training dictates that rounds continue to be put into that target until the threat is neutralized.

I think it's a fairly logical protocol. Here's a good example of why:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STspPota7es&t=1m55s

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

Because it's a 9mm and the assailant may have been on drugs or just the locations they hit, some combination of the above. This is part of why police are trained to keep firing until the threat ends.



Because, as stated above, they are trained to keep firing until the threat ends. If someone has a gun or a knife and is presenting as a threat to the officer or to other civilians, their training dictates that the threat must be stopped. If the person drops the weapon when ordered to, then there is an opportunity to arrest them. If they continue to attack or approach another with the weapon, indicating an ongoing intent to harm, then training dictates that rounds continue to be put into that target until the threat is neutralized.

I think it's a fairly logical protocol. Here's a good example of why:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STspPota7es&t=1m55s

I did not realise handguns were so ineffective, though it is not clear if that is due to accuracy and the cops are missing a lot, or the body can survive more bullets than I believed.

It is an old statistic, but the German police fired 85 bullets in 2011, killing 6. The two videos show the US police firing about 20. Is there something the German police are doing, that the US police do not?

Also, in the second video the male continues to move forward and attack, in the first video the male immediately rolls off the female and lies on his back, releasing the knife. At what point is an attack considered ended, as at the moment it looks like only once the attacker is dead.

[Skeptic Tank]

Originally Posted by Nessie

It is an old statistic, but the German police fired 85 bullets in 2011, killing 6. The two videos show the US police firing about 20. Is there something the German police are doing, that the US police do not?

Probably different training regiments, possibly different weaponry / caliber, different standards of what sorts of situations necessitate firearm use, different tactics re: unload magazine into target or not, etc.

Oh and superior German blood. J/k

In all seriousness, yes most times if you pop someone once they will go down. Most times. US police officers deal with a lot of situations by comparison, and they will see more of the weird scenarios where the person keeps coming.

Originally Posted by Nessie

Also, in the second video the male continues to move forward and attack, in the first video the male immediately rolls off the female and lies on his back, releasing the knife. At what point is an attack considered ended, as at the moment it looks like only once the attacker is dead.

In the first video, he rolls off her but still has the knife until much later. He only finally drops it as he's expiring. Quite a while after the last bullet is fired. Prior to him dropping it, there's a period of time where the attacker and victim are near one another on the ground, and the victim isn't the only one who could be in danger while the knife remains in the guy's hand.

I'm not really worried about whether it was overkill or 100% necessary. I'm glad the cop did what he did. It was satisfying to watch, and it was deserved.

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

Probably different training regiments, possibly different weaponry / caliber, different standards of what sorts of situations necessitate firearm use, different tactics re: unload magazine into target or not, etc.

Oh and superior German blood. J/k

Would it not be good idea to find out why the difference and for the US to adopt German police tactics? The more people the US police arrest and put to court, rather than shoot dead in a blaze of bullets, the more respect people will have for them.

Quote:

In all seriousness, yes most times if you pop someone once they will go down. Most times. US police officers deal with a lot of situations by comparison, and they will see more of the weird scenarios where the person keeps coming.



In the first video, he rolls off her but still has the knife until much later. He only finally drops it as he's expiring. Quite a while after the last bullet is fired. Prior to him dropping it, there's a period of time where the attacker and victim are near one another on the ground, and the victim isn't the only one who could be in danger while the knife remains in the guy's hand.

I'm not really worried about whether it was overkill or 100% necessary. I'm glad the cop did what he did. It was satisfying to watch, and it was deserved.

Maybe that last sentence explains the difference. You think respect for the US police comes from their willingness to summarily execute criminals in a blaze of bullets.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Nessie

In this graphic footage, a cop shoots a male attacking a female with a knife. My questions are about the shots fired. The cop has a handgun, he fires the first shot when the male is still on top of the female and he then fires about 15 times into the male, who is still moving.

How is that possible, to fire so many times, at close range and not instantly kill?

Why keep on firing, when the police's job is to arrest, not summarily execute?

https://twitter.com/720threat/status...72352297709569

That was really weird. The cop stops the car pretty far away, although he knows it is game on. His partner stays at the car the whole time.

Knife boy walks over and lays on the woman after the cop runs up, gun drawn. Another man is standing right over the prone woman's head, and not helping. I assume he is another assailant. No one bothers with him and he walks off.

The cop fires at knife boy while he is laying on the victim. There is no threat to the cop; the only threat is to the victim...that the cop is now firing at, point blank.

Wouldn't the move been for both cops to pull closer and one cop go for the hand holding the knife, and the other have gun out to cover/keep the other guy at bay?

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Nessie

Would it not be good idea to find out why the difference and for the US to adopt German police tactics? The more people the US police arrest and put to court, rather than shoot dead in a blaze of bullets, the more respect people will have for them.



Maybe that last sentence explains the difference. You think respect for the US police comes from their willingness to summarily execute those the police officer has decided arecriminals in a blaze of bullets.

Minor but important correction

[Disbelief]

Originally Posted by Thermal

That was really weird. The cop stops the car pretty far away, although he knows it is game on. His partner stays at the car the whole time.

Knife boy walks over and lays on the woman after the cop runs up, gun drawn. Another man is standing right over the prone woman's head, and not helping. I assume he is another assailant. No one bothers with him and he walks off.

The cop fires at knife boy while he is laying on the victim. There is no threat to the cop; the only threat is to the victim...that the cop is now firing at, point blank.

Wouldn't the move been for both cops to pull closer and one cop go for the hand holding the knife, and the other have gun out to cover/keep the other guy at bay?

Have you lost your mind? What if knife boy was really Bullseye? He might have turned and thrown the knife to slice the jugular of both cops, until the knife returns to him. Better to continue shooting a downed suspect and probably should have reloaded to be extra safe.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by Thermal

That was really weird. The cop stops the car pretty far away, although he knows it is game on. His partner stays at the car the whole time.

Knife boy walks over and lays on the woman after the cop runs up, gun drawn. Another man is standing right over the prone woman's head, and not helping. I assume he is another assailant. No one bothers with him and he walks off.

The cop fires at knife boy while he is laying on the victim. There is no threat to the cop; the only threat is to the victim...that the cop is now firing at, point blank.

Wouldn't the move been for both cops to pull closer and one cop go for the hand holding the knife, and the other have gun out to cover/keep the other guy at bay?

Yeah I dunno, maybe he kept shooting a bit longer than he needed to, but when there's an actual clear and real and immediate danger to a member of the public... I'm gonna kinda just shrug my shoulders. Perhaps they can review and figure out if a different set of actions were more appropriate.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Disbelief

Have you lost your mind? What if knife boy was really Bullseye? He might have turned and thrown the knife to slice the jugular of both cops, until the knife returns to him.

Ah, the Yondu Protocol. forgot about that.

Quote:

Better to continue shooting a downed suspect and probably should have reloaded to be extra safe.

He literally did. The cop emptied his mag (see the slide locked back when he runs out of bullets) and dropped a fresh mag in and chambers up, ready to keep firing at the prone piece of Swiss cheese at his feet.

The cop does call him "sir" when he screams to drop the knife. So he gets Miss Manners points, there. Probably should have held his pinky out when shooting for best form, though.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Yeah I dunno, maybe he kept shooting a bit longer than he needed to, but when there's an actual clear and real and immediate danger to a member of the public... I'm gonna kinda just shrug my shoulders. Perhaps they can review and figure out if a different set of actions were more appropriate.

Yeah, that's who he was firing at, from what, 3 or 4 feet? It's a flipping miracle she wasn't hit from a round exiting from a 9 at that range.

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by jimbob

Minor but important correction

I was considering that the video evidence shows that the male with the knife, lying on top of the screaming female, was definitely a criminal, so in this instance, the cops instincts were correct!

[Disbelief]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Ah, the Yondu Protocol. forgot about that.

Critical for today's police force, they're under siege daily.

Quote:

He literally did. The cop emptied his mag (see the slide locked back when he runs out of bullets) and dropped a fresh mag in and chambers up, ready to keep firing at the prone piece of Swiss cheese at his feet.

The cop does call him "sir" when he screams to drop the knife. So he gets Miss Manners points, there. Probably should have held his pinky out when shooting for best form, though.

Missed that part, I stopped watching after several shots. Good to know he was prepared in case he had another knife.

[Trebuchet]

Don't ever be like these cops.
But do note that the guy would be dead if he hadn't been white. The officer has no doubt been punished already for not filling him full of holes when he reached behind him.

[shemp]

Yeah, when he reached for his back pocket I expected him to end up looking like a Swiss cheese. His skin color saved him. A Black man who did that would have been dead in seconds.

[shemp]

Louisiana Cops Sued After Dash Cam Video Showed They Lied About Why They Performed A Pretextual Stop

Quote:

Courts have continually said pretextual stops are a cool way to engage in law enforcement fishing expeditions. But there are a few caveats.

First, there needs to be a reason to stop the person, even if that reason exists largely in the imaginative readings of local statutes by police officers. Second, the stop cannot be unreasonably extended past the point of its objective. When you hand out a citation or tell someone they’re free to go, they’re free to go. You can’t keep them detained while trying to find other ways to talk them into warrantless searches.

Finally, when you’re asked to defend your actions in court, your pretext had better hold up. And you had damn well better make sure you’re not recording evidence that contradicts your claims. That’s a fatal error, and one that appears to have been committed by two Louisiana cops now being sued by the people they pulled over, with the assistance of the Institute for Justice.

Mario Rosales and his girlfriend were driving through Alexandria, Louisiana when cops decided to pull them over. Prior to this stop, Rosales had stopped at a red light, signaled his intent to make a left hand turn, and made a legal left hand turn (with his blinker on) when the light turned green. All of this was dispassionately observed by the dash cam in Officer Samuel Terrell’s SUV.

You can read the rest at the link. tl/dr version: Cops illegally pull over car driven by Hispanic person, go on fishing expedition, fail to find anything important, get sued.

[pgwenthold]

So I know that dashcam/bodycams more often than not support the police, and, presumably, that is even in contested situations. But still, you gotta wonder about how much lying has gone on that doesn't get recorded?

I mean, I've seen a bodycam video of police planting drugs in a search. If that is what happens when you have video, what happens without it? They wouldn't even have to try to hide it.

[lobosrul5]

Omfg....

Now that the campaign season is over, I want to clear up the claims about Albuquerque’s crime stats. Over 5 years, overall, property and violent crime are down, thanks to the officers, detectives and professionals throughout APD.

https://twitter.com/ABQPoliceChief/s...65609418297344

So, we had been absolutely inundated with campaign ads that the current governor was horrible on crime and everything is going to ****. APD formally endorsed the republican candidate for governor. Now 3 whole ******* days after the election the chief of police is tweeting... you know actually things arent all that bad. In other words he's a lying sack of **** that no one should believe.

[bluesjnr]

Lets face it, y'gotta watch these roided up wronguns. Thank goodness they manged to suppress the threat.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[Suddenly]

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

So I know that dashcam/bodycams more often than not support the police, and, presumably, that is even in contested situations. But still, you gotta wonder about how much lying has gone on that doesn't get recorded?

I mean, I've seen a bodycam video of police planting drugs in a search. If that is what happens when you have video, what happens without it? They wouldn't even have to try to hide it.

Beyond the lying, there are the cases where the memory of the cops is legitimately distorted by natural human bias. Which is some ways is scarier and just as much a reason for making video mandatory.

It's a semi-regular thing, not that often but not unusual, where I'll talk about a case with a cop and/or cross examine them on the stand in a preliminary hearing and they will tell their story not only with full knowledge video exists but will reference the video as backing up their claims.

Then I get discovery and watch the video and it's nothing like what the cop was describing.

I think the same culture that includes the lying creates this. Natural human biases fueled by fear and self-aggrandizement. A side of laziness where they don't review the video before testifying.

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by Suddenly

Beyond the lying, there are the cases where the memory of the cops is legitimately distorted by natural human bias. Which is some ways is scarier and just as much a reason for making video mandatory.

It's a semi-regular thing, not that often but not unusual, where I'll talk about a case with a cop and/or cross examine them on the stand in a preliminary hearing and they will tell their story not only with full knowledge video exists but will reference the video as backing up their claims.

Then I get discovery and watch the video and it's nothing like what the cop was describing.

I think the same culture that includes the lying creates this. Natural human biases fueled by fear and self-aggrandizement. A side of laziness where they don't review the video before testifying.

I think that it is under emphasised that human memory is constructed and reconstructed. Eye witness testimony is unreliable. Even if LEO memory of events differ from video that does not mean they are lying. Memory can certainly be affected by unconscious biases and assumptions.

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by Suddenly

Beyond the lying, there are the cases where the memory of the cops is legitimately distorted by natural human bias. Which is some ways is scarier and just as much a reason for making video mandatory.

It's a semi-regular thing, not that often but not unusual, where I'll talk about a case with a cop and/or cross examine them on the stand in a preliminary hearing and they will tell their story not only with full knowledge video exists but will reference the video as backing up their claims.

Then I get discovery and watch the video and it's nothing like what the cop was describing.

I think the same culture that includes the lying creates this. Natural human biases fueled by fear and self-aggrandizement. A side of laziness where they don't review the video before testifying.

It's a culture of impunity. They know they won't get disciplined for lying under oath so lying just becomes a natural and accepted way of life for them. Couple that with the institutional turning cops into an army of occupation and you have a very dangerous situation.

[Aridas]

To offer a small story of cops being actually good...

Sometimes It's The Simple Gesture That Makes A World of Difference, As These Officers Demonstrated.

Really short version? Tragedy happened and a couple cops quietly helped take care some unfinished cake making and delivering to a funeral, because the lady was still in a bit of shock over losing her husband and also still felt responsible for fulfilling her prior commitment to finish making them and delivering them. Of some relevance, this story has stayed up in the rec list at the Daily Kos for a fair while, and the overall tone of the site on the police isn't all that much different from this thread's. Either way, for all the widespread structural issues with the police and the overt need for better accountability, it's nice to see the the better side of humanity shine through when it does.

[Darat]

Follow-up on an incident we discussed a while back - child killed in dressing room when a police officer fired 3 shoots in a store.

https://www.wjhg.com/2022/11/23/lapd...t-killed-teen/

Quote:

....Officer William Dorsey Jones Jr. fired three times when police responded to a Burlington clothing store in the San Fernando Valley where 24-year-old Daniel Elena Lopez had brutally attacked two women on Dec. 23, 2021.

Valentina Orellana Peralta was shot and killed as she prayed in a dressing room with her mother, Soledad Peralta. Jones also killed Elena Lopez.

The Police Commission ruled that Jones was justified in firing once but that his two subsequent shots were out of policy.

Police Chief Michel Moore previously found in his own review that all three shots were unjustified.

Now that both the chief and civilian panel have ruled, Moore could face disciplinary action or even firing. However, he can appeal any decision to the LAPD’s Board of Rights.....

From the report: The family’s lawsuit alleges that the LAPD failed to adequately train and supervise the responding officers and “fostered an environment that allowed and permitted this shooting to occur.” We've seen enough about how police are trained that it goes beyond "fostering an environment" they are trained to perceive all encounters in such a way.

[shemp]

Retired police captain in Idaho outed as white supremacist

Quote:

A retired police captain in Idaho has been discovered to have had ties with white supremacist groups during his tenure with the Boise Police Department.

Matthew Bryngelson, whose 22-year career in law enforcement ended with his retirement in August, appears on the speaker list of a conference organized by American Renaissance, a website that promotes white supremacist views.

Bryngelson, who was set to present a talk entitled “The Vilification of Police and What it Means for America,” was listed under the pseudonym Daniel Vinyard, the name of a neo-Nazi character in the 1998 film “American History X.”

Bryngelson’s involvement in the conference drew attention online after Twitter user Molly Conger posted a thread about it over the weekend.

Please read the whole story.

[shemp]

Civil rights lawsuit to follow criminal case in death of Christian Glass

Quote:

A lawyer for the family of Christian Glass, who was killed by a Clear Creek County Sheriff deputy in June says his firm is preparing a civil rights lawsuit against five departments that were at the scene the night he was killed.

5th Judicial District District Attorney Heidi McCollum announced Wednesday the indictments against two of the Clear Creek County deputies involved.

Andrew Buen is charged with 2nd-degree murder, official misconduct and reckless endangerment, while Kyle Gould is charged with criminally negligent homicide and reckless endangerment.

"The parents are relieved," said Siddhartha Rathod, an attorney for the Glass family. "Is that enough? No. Because not everyone is being held responsible."

Rathod says he plans to file a civil rights lawsuit against five departments involved at the time of the shooting likely after the first of the year, which includes: Clear Creek County, Idaho Springs Police, Georgetown Police, Colorado State Patrol and the Colorado Division of Gaming.

[shemp]

3 White Georgia jail guards arrested in violent assault of Black inmate

Quote:

Three jail guards in Georgia have been charged with battery in the beating of a detainee at a county jail that was recorded by security cameras, sheriff's officials announced Tuesday.

Camden County Sheriff's employees Mason Garrick, Braxton Massey, and Ryan Biegel were arrested and booked into jail, the county sheriff's office said in a news release. They were also charged with violating their oath of office.

It was not immediately clear whether they had attorneys.

Security cameras recorded guards in September repeatedly punching Jarrett Hobbs, a 41-year-old Black man from North Carolina, in the head and neck. The three deputies who were charged are White, according to Capt. Larry Bruce, a spokesman for the Camden County sheriff.

Hobbs had been booked into the Camden County jail in coastal Georgia on Sept. 3 on traffic violation and drug possession charges.

Security video from that night shows Hobbs standing alone in his cell before five guards rush in and surround him. At least three deputies can be seen landing punches before Hobbs gets dragged from the cell and hurled against a wall.

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by Darat

Follow-up on an incident we discussed a while back - child killed in dressing room when a police officer fired 3 shoots in a store.

https://www.wjhg.com/2022/11/23/lapd...t-killed-teen/


From the report: The family’s lawsuit alleges that the LAPD failed to adequately train and supervise the responding officers and “fostered an environment that allowed and permitted this shooting to occur.” We've seen enough about how police are trained that it goes beyond "fostering an environment" they are trained to perceive all encounters in such a way.

Having been told in previous posts that it is quite normal for police to continue shooting until their magazines are empty, perhaps he should be congratulated on his restraint in only firing three times?

I can accept the case that to open fire at all was wrong. (Which would be my view if that mattered.) But if to fire one shot was correct it is a very fine judgement in retrospect to say the next two are wrong. Presumably he was just following the Mozambique drill?

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Planigale

Having been told in previous posts that it is quite normal for police to continue shooting until their magazines are empty, perhaps he should be congratulated on his restraint in only firing three times?

I can accept the case that to open fire at all was wrong. (Which would be my view if that mattered.) But if to fire one shot was correct it is a very fine judgement in retrospect to say the next two are wrong. Presumably he was just following the Mozambique drill?

From the report:

Quote:

Police Chief Michel Moore previously found in his own review that all three shots were unjustified.

Also:

Quote:

The officer “inaccurately assessed the imminence of the threat of death or serious bodily injury” from Elena Lopez when he fired three rounds in quick sequence and should have reassessed the situations after the first shot, the majority concluded.

The board apparently decided that he should have observed what his first shot hit before he fired again. He also was using a rifle at short range, which should have allowed to aim at his target precisely, not "spray and pray."

[mgidm86]

Americans, cops included, have proven that, as a group, we are not responsible enough to have guns in our society. I vote you and your toys off the island.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by mgidm86

Americans, cops included, have proven that, as a group, we are not responsible enough to have guns in our society. I vote you and your toys off the island.

Ya I got $20 on the guys with the guns to be making that call.

[mgidm86]

Yes, the stupid does often prevail here.

[tyr_13]

A Virginia cop catfished a teenage girl online, drove to her home in California, killed her family, kidnapped her, then died in a shootout with the Riverside PD. (NBC link)

[Darat]

Originally Posted by tyr_13

A Virginia cop catfished a teenage girl online, drove to her home in California, killed her family, kidnapped her, then died in a shootout with the Riverside PD. (NBC link)

"...Austin Lee Edwards, a former trooper with the Virginia State Police who was working for the Washington County Sheriff's Office..."

Given the many similarities in many of these types of stories I have to wonder why was he a "former trooper", and what background research was done when he was employed in Wahington County.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Darat

"...Austin Lee Edwards, a former trooper with the Virginia State Police who was working for the Washington County Sheriff's Office..."

Given the many similarities in many of these types of stories I have to wonder why was he a "former trooper", and what background research was done when he was employed in Wahington County.

A good question