Continuation The behaviour of US police officers - part 2

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by Darat

"...Austin Lee Edwards, a former trooper with the Virginia State Police who was working for the Washington County Sheriff's Office..."

Given the many similarities in many of these types of stories I have to wonder why was he a "former trooper", and what background research was done when he was employed in Wahington County.

Given what comes out too often when US cops are sacked and rehired elsewhere, a call to the chief of his former department who replied something along the lines of "yeah, he's a good kid, bu the woke crowd got a bit uppity after he pistol whipped a black person, who we all know is a drug dealer but could never plant evidence on, and to save the department we 'let him go'."

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

Given what comes out too often when US cops are sacked and rehired elsewhere, a call to the chief of his former department who replied something along the lines of "yeah, he's a good kid, bu the woke crowd got a bit uppity after he pistol whipped a black person, who we all know is a drug dealer but could never plant evidence on, and to save the department we 'let him go'."

From the link:

Quote:

A spokesperson for the Virginia State Police said Edwards entered its academy on July 6, 2021, and graduated as a trooper on Jan. 21 of this year. He was assigned to Henrico County, which is within the Richmond Division, they said, before his October resignation.

The Washington County Sheriff's Office said in a statement that Edwards was hired on Nov. 16 and recently began orientation there. The office was getting ready to assign him to the patrol division.

"Past employers and the Virginia State Police were contacted during the hiring processing," the sheriff's office said, "however, no employers disclosed any troubles, reprimands, or internal investigations pertaining to Edwards."

Sounds like he didn't make his probationary year. Employers generally, not just police, often won't badmouth an ex-employee for fear of a lawsuit. Sometimes employees will agree to resign instead of being fired in exchange for a positive, or at least a not-negative, reference. Another argument for a national database of police officers that would include disciplinary actions.

[shemp]

I can't even imagine what is going on in the mind of a man who is that deranged. He must have known that this had to end with his death or life imprisonment, but that didn't stop him.

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by Darat

"...Austin Lee Edwards, a former trooper with the Virginia State Police who was working for the Washington County Sheriff's Office..."

Given the many similarities in many of these types of stories I have to wonder why was he a "former trooper", and what background research was done when he was employed in Wahington County.

I had to read several articles that all called him a "former state trooper" before I found out that he was an active sheriff's deputy at the time of the crime.

[Babbylonian]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

I had to read several articles that all called him a "former state trooper" before I found out that he was an active sheriff's deputy at the time of the crime.

News organizations vomiting up police talking points. It's just about all they do.

[Suddenly]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

I had to read several articles that all called him a "former state trooper" before I found out that he was an active sheriff's deputy at the time of the crime.

I'm seeing headlines of his being "employed" by the Sheriff, and yesterday CNN left any connection out of their headline.

Lets see how much of a copwashing lede I can compose:

"There was an officer involved shooting yesterday after individuals interfered with a deputy attempting to place a teen in personal custody"

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

I had to read several articles that all called him a "former state trooper" before I found out that he was an active sheriff's deputy at the time of the crime.

State trooper is one of the most prestigious law enforcement jobs. State police have some of the toughest hiring standards and training requirements. An ex-trooper going off the rails is more newsworthy than a rural county deputy. And he was a trooper until a month ago. The link says local police haven't said whether he was actually a current cop.

Quote:

It wasn't clear if Edwards, 28, was a sworn officer when he allegedly killed 69-year-old Mark Winek; his wife, 65-year-old Sharie Winek; and their daughter, 38-year-old Brooke Winek.
.....
In a statement, Andis said Edwards was hired earlier this month and was in the process of being assigned to the patrol division. Edwards resigned from Virginia State Police on October 28, a spokesperson for the agency said.

"Former state trooper" is his most recent confirmed police job.

[Bob001]

A different perspective: American doesn't have enough police officers.

Quote:

Lewis and Usmani complicate the narrative with this statistic: Many other industrialized democracies field more police per capita than the United States does. At 212 officers per 100,000 total residents, this country ranks in the 41st percentile, behind Germany, Spain and Belgium, among others.

Relative to its level of serious crime, the United States is even more of an outlier; it has one-ninth as many police officers, per homicide, than the median developed country.

The result is that U.S. police are 44 percent less likely than counterparts abroad to clear cases of serious crime. Lewis and Usmani emphasize that American police devote as much effort — per officer — to such cases; the problem is insufficient personnel.
.....
This is a disaster for public safety, because certainty of arrest is the best way to deter crime. The U.S. criminal justice system relies instead on a far less efficient means: harsh sentences for offenders who get caught, much harsher than those in peer nations.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ustice-reform/
https://direct.mit.edu/ajle/article/...NG-IN-AMERICA1

[Suddenly]

Originally Posted by Bob001

A different perspective: American doesn't have enough police officers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ustice-reform/
https://direct.mit.edu/ajle/article/...NG-IN-AMERICA1

Seems a fair point.

It's a pretty complicated dynamic. I will say that if we tripled the number of cops without other reforms things would be way worse because all of this is a series of maladaptive responses to other issues that themselves often are responses and so on. If someone were to take away from this that more cops is the easy solution they'd be in for a surprise.

Cop training and culture is so broken at present that putting more people out there would be tragic. The bar to entry really doesn't need to be lower.

I do wonder about definitions and how the raw numbers track across systems. I suspect a common US problem isn't too few patrolmen/street cops as much as nowhere near enough expert detectives and analysts.


It occurs to me there is no reason a detective needs to be a cop. With the skillset I've developed I'd be an excellent detective w/r/t piecing evidence together and building a case but I'm excluded from that sort of thing because I'm not going to be a cop first. It's somewhat limiting the talent pool.

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by Bob001

A different perspective: American doesn't have enough police officers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ustice-reform/
https://direct.mit.edu/ajle/article/...NG-IN-AMERICA1

And even fewer good ones.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

And even fewer good ones.

Sorta like the Border Patrol, I suspect that some of that might be a branding issue. I think that there's much more limited group of people that is attracted to a job where they expect to be hurting people (especially under expected threat because of the pervasiveness of gun culture) compared to the group of people who would be attracted to a job that actually is about helping people.

[tyr_13]

Not sure if this one was on here or not, but a man tried to help the police with an investigation and they beat him and stole his phone.

[shemp]

Trigger-happy cop shoots and kills homeowner:

'He did nothing wrong': Family of Texas entrepreneur fatally shot by police say he was defending his home

Quote:

A tech entrepreneur in Texas wasn’t given ample time to drop a rifle he was carrying on his own front porch before he was fatally shot by police last month, his devastated family told NBC News.

Rajan “Raj” Moonesinghe, 33, had returned from a trip and suspected his home had been burglarized during the early-morning hours of Nov. 15. That’s when he held a rifle outside his front door and was encountered by an Austin police officer who quickly shot him while almost simultaneously ordering Moonesinghe to drop the gun, relatives said.

In an exclusive interview on Thursday, Moonesinghe’s mother, Ruth, and brother, Johann, said they were heartbroken and demanded answers from Austin police as to why their loved one was killed so quickly before being given a reasonable amount of time to drop the weapon.

“He did nothing wrong,” Johann Moonesinghe said. “He had a gun … he was defending his house and he didn’t point the gun. He was not menacing. He didn’t look like he was going to shoot anyone.”

Quote:

The two-minute Ring video shows Moonesinghe carrying the rifle outside his home while walking toward the street. He appears to briefly hold up the rifle before turning around and walking toward his front door and pointing the rifle.

He appears to say, “Yep, you want this?” Several seconds pass and then Moonesinghe says, “Are you sure?” “Oh my God, you’re f------ stupid. You’re f------ stupid.”

He then points the rifle toward the doorway and a loud gunshot is heard while a police car passes in the background of the video. A second police car then passes. A second shot is heard while Moonesinghe is not in view of the camera, according to the video.

He then comes into view of the camera and is walking on his porch when what sounds like “drop the gun” is shouted, and nearly simultaneously multiple shots are heard on the video.

Moonesinghe then drops to the ground and shouts, “It wasn’t me.” He then yells an expletive, the video shows. “Subject is down, hands are up” is heard on the video.

Moonesinghe again appears to say, “It wasn’t me.”

I'm sure the cop gave him the standard hundredth of a second to comply before he blasted away.

[mgidm86]

Texas again, where it perfectly legal for anyone (more or less) to carry a gun in public.

The jokes write themselves in this country.

[lobosrul5]

Heres the Ring video and police bodycam video.

https://youtu.be/e_tLi8EV2yg

It's... Odd. The homeowner appears to shoot twice into his own door from outside it just before police show up, was their a burglar inside or was he having some kind of mental break?

They shoot him pretty much simultaneously as they say to drop the gun which was pointed at the ground.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[shemp]

Originally Posted by mgidm86

Texas again, where it perfectly legal for anyone (more or less) to carry a gun in public.

The jokes write themselves in this country.

Yeah, but if you're not white, cops aren't giving you even a fraction of a second to drop it.

[novaphile]

My guess is that the home owner had no idea that the police had arrived.

He looked impaired, I'm wondering if he was impaired by adrenaline.

Firing into his house like that just doesn't make any sense at all.

[novaphile]

Can any of the Americans explain the meaning of the flag in the hallway?

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by novaphile

Can any of the Americans explain the meaning of the flag in the hallway?

It was a short-lived breakaway region of Mexico in 1846. Now a subject of T-shirts, coffee cups etc., possibly for people who think California could declare independence.
https://www.unitedstatesnow.org/what...a-republic.htm
https://www.californiarepublicclothe...shirts-hoodies
https://www.etsy.com/market/california_republic_patch

[novaphile]

Originally Posted by Bob001

It was a short-lived breakaway region of Mexico in 1846. Now a subject of T-shirts, coffee cups etc., possibly for people who think California could declare independence.
https://www.unitedstatesnow.org/what...a-republic.htm
https://www.californiarepublicclothe...shirts-hoodies
https://www.etsy.com/market/california_republic_patch

Thank you, it was the last bit I was having trouble finding...

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by novaphile

Can any of the Americans explain the meaning of the flag in the hallway?

State flag of California.

Which kind of doesn't explain much, as in why they use that flag or why the guy had it in his hallway.

ETA: I'd have been pretty surprised not to have been ninja'd on this.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

State flag of California.
.....

I embarrassed that I didn't know that. I had to resort to Wikipedia and speculation. Of course, there is the question of why a U.S. state calls itself a republic. I don't know if any other states do that.

[Babbylonian]

Originally Posted by Bob001

I embarrassed that I didn't know that. I had to resort to Wikipedia and speculation. Of course, there is the question of why a U.S. state calls itself a republic. I don't know if any other states do that.

Most states aren't full of dummies who love the idea of seceding from the Union, 150+ years after we've answered the question regarding whether or not that would be allowed.

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by Bob001

I embarrassed that I didn't know that. I had to resort to Wikipedia and speculation. Of course, there is the question of why a U.S. state calls itself a republic. I don't know if any other states do that.

As in other states, it goes way back* and means nothing now. Louisiana doesn't have "counties", it has "parishes". Same kind of thing.
Back on topic, the guy was having some sort of "episode", firing an assault-style weapon into his own house. But would the police have been all "droptheweaponbangbangbang" if he'd been white? Maybe, maybe not.

*"way back" in terms of American history, not European!

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

As in other states, it goes way back* and means nothing now. Louisiana doesn't have "counties", it has "parishes". Same kind of thing.
Back on topic, the guy was having some sort of "episode", firing an assault-style weapon into his own house. But would the police have been all "droptheweaponbangbangbang" if he'd been white? Maybe, maybe not.

*"way back" in terms of American history, not European!

I hope some more coherent account comes out here, as the bit I've seen so far suggests that there were shots fired that were not attributed either to the victim or the police, so it remains a bit of a mystery what actually was happening.

[Armitage72]

San Francisco has given its police department permission to deploy robots armed with explosives to kill criminals in "extreme circumstances". The ability to use lethal force was added by the police.
What could possibly go wrong?

Quote:

After a heated debate, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors voted to pass a policy that would allow officers to use ground-based robots to kill “when risk of loss of life to members of the public or officers is imminent and officers cannot subdue the threat after using alternative force options or de-escalation tactics.” The measure must pass a second vote at a meeting next week and ultimately be approved by the mayor before becoming city law.
The policy, which was first proposed in September, was amended to include the provision allowing lethal force at the request of the San Francisco Police Department. An earlier draft set out that “robots shall not be used as a Use of Force against any person,” but the SFPD struck out the line and replaced it.

[Darat]

Robocop - The Documentary!

[Darat]

Originally Posted by bruto

I hope some more coherent account comes out here, as the bit I've seen so far suggests that there were shots fired that were not attributed either to the victim or the police, so it remains a bit of a mystery what actually was happening.

This one doesn't seem as clear as some of the other incidents. If the police saw someone outside a house shooting into the house that is of course going to raise alarm bells and I'd say being prepared to use lethal force in such a situation is understandable. It does seem the shot was pre-emptive but I'd like to see a clearer timeline of what happened to better understand the police officer's actions.

[Dave Rogers]

Originally Posted by Armitage72

San Francisco has given its police department permission to deploy robots armed with explosives to kill criminals in "extreme circumstances". The ability to use lethal force was added by the police.
What could possibly go wrong?

What disturbs me most is that "Stop Killer Robots" is the name of a real campaign group.

Dave

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by Armitage72

San Francisco has given its police department permission to deploy robots armed with explosives to kill criminals in "extreme circumstances". The ability to use lethal force was added by the police.
What could possibly go wrong?

Clearly a violation of the First Law.

[gnome]

There seems to be a lot of confusion around this, as if the robots can decide on their own to use lethal force. From what I can tell, they're not even autonomous. More like drones that are always directly operated by a person. So using the drone to kill is not a significantly different act, from the standpoint of accountability, as the drone operator using a firearm to kill.

[Babbylonian]

Originally Posted by gnome

There seems to be a lot of confusion around this, as if the robots can decide on their own to use lethal force. From what I can tell, they're not even autonomous. More like drones that are always directly operated by a person. So using the drone to kill is not a significantly different act, from the standpoint of accountability, as the drone operator using a firearm to kill.

Are you suggesting we should conduct drone strikes on our own citizens? Because that is absolutely the next step. It's not even a slippery slope since the only difference between an armed, remote-controlled, rolling robot and an armed, remote-controlled, flying robot is altitude.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by gnome

There seems to be a lot of confusion around this, as if the robots can decide on their own to use lethal force. From what I can tell, they're not even autonomous. More like drones that are always directly operated by a person. So using the drone to kill is not a significantly different act, from the standpoint of accountability, as the drone operator using a firearm to kill.

While that may be, in some philosophical sense, true, I think that from the practical standpoint, signal purity, sensory quality, and the ability to make, and take responsibility for, instantaneous judgment might make a substantive difference.

I suspect that even in more abstract ways, the lack of immediacy and the insulation from the event are likely to influence the quality of judgment. One might hope that the relative immunity of a drone to lethal consequences would make the operator less likely to exercise excessive lethal force, but human nature being what it is, I would not bet my life, or anyone else's, on that.

[mgidm86]

Cops aren't brave enough to run into schools where children are being slaughtered. "3PO, call R2!"

[gnome]

I think we absolutely should question when (or whether) police should be using remote-kill devices. The point I was making is that this isn't a roving bot operating on pre-programmed directives that might make a "whoops" kill or decide to enslave humanity. This is a tool directly operated by a person.

I'd be inclined to require top police leadership in that jurisdiction to personally sign off on its use, and to have rigid statutory definitions of when it is suitable.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

And even fewer good ones.

Hey we have systems to get rid of them.

[trustbutverify]

Originally Posted by Babbylonian

Are you suggesting we should conduct drone strikes on our own citizens? Because that is absolutely the next step. It's not even a slippery slope since the only difference between an armed, remote-controlled, rolling robot and an armed, remote-controlled, flying robot is altitude.

Every police force on Earth is going to transition to significantly robotic law enforcement, no matter how progressive and empathetic they are, no matter how expert their mental health response teams are. It's just a question of time.

[mgidm86]

Originally Posted by gnome

I think we absolutely should question when (or whether) police should be using remote-kill devices. The point I was making is that this isn't a roving bot operating on pre-programmed directives that might make a "whoops" kill or decide to enslave humanity. This is a tool directly operated by a person.

I'd be inclined to require top police leadership in that jurisdiction to personally sign off on its use, and to have rigid statutory definitions of when it is suitable.

I'd trust the robot over the cops these days. I say give 'em a gun and a chance!

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

Every police force on Earth is going to transition to significantly robotic law enforcement, no matter how progressive and empathetic they are, no matter how expert their mental health response teams are. It's just a question of time.

That'll be a long long time coming.

First off, police have just about the last really powerful union in the USA. Secondly, the more labor intensive jobs that require even less thought than police will come first. And last, its going to be a Gordian knot of moral and legal issues to get through. But, yeah probably by the start of the 22nd century, we'll have real life robocops. By that time there won't really be any blue collar jobs left. Will it be a utopia or a dystopia? I'm gonna guess the latter.

[trustbutverify]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

That'll be a long long time coming.

First off, police have just about the last really powerful union in the USA. Secondly, the more labor intensive jobs that require even less thought than police will come first. And last, its going to be a Gordian knot of moral and legal issues to get through. But, yeah probably by the start of the 22nd century, we'll have real life robocops. By that time there won't really be any blue collar jobs left. Will it be a utopia or a dystopia? I'm gonna guess the latter.

I'm not talking about "robocop" specifically (although I believe that's coming sooner than most people think). I mean more as autonomous and semi-autonomous weapons and reconnaissance units. Advanced AI police drones absolutely will be used to stun and, when necessary, kill in the near future. And I believe that will happen, as I said, in every police agency on the planet. Human cops will trend down as synthetic units trend up.