[Continuation] General UK Politics III - Dumb and Dumber - Page 39

zooterkin · 28th October 2022, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by erwinl

Highlighted.

Because here in the Netherlands owning a house with a typical mortgage is much cheaper than renting a similar house.

Much the same here; my son-in-law has just accepted a job which comes with a house. They'll be able to let out their current house for about three times in rent what they are paying for the mortgage.

The Don · 28th October 2022, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Much the same here; my son-in-law has just accepted a job which comes with a house. They'll be able to let out their current house for about three times in rent what they are paying for the mortgage.

I guess the Bristol property market is just different.

To borrow £360k to buy our flat would currently cost about £2k a month.

There's no way on earth we could think of charging £6k a month as I've said we charge £1,250.

Don Towers would cost about twice that as a mortgage payment, there's no way we could charge £3k a month, much less £12k

shuttlt · 28th October 2022, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

I've paid off my mortgage. If I sell my house and rent instead, that will increase my monthly outgoings considerably. If I rent somewhere similar to my current home, I estimate that the money from the sale will pay that rent for 15 - 20 years. Then what?

If you'd rather not rent, downsize or move to a cheaper area.... then I don't know what to tell you. I can't spend my savings either, and keep collecting interest on them. If people complain they can't access the benefit of eating the cake and yet still have the cake, then there is no solution.

The Don · 28th October 2022, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by shuttlt

If you'd rather not rent, downsize or move to a cheaper area.... then I don't know what to tell you. I can't spend my savings either, and keep collecting interest on them. If people complain they can't access the benefit of eating the cake and yet still have the cake, then there is no solution.

Pixel42 is pointing out that having your primary residence as your main (possibly sole) asset is a pretty poor way to invest your money due to the illiquidity of that asset and the cost, time and hassle of releasing the value in that asset.

I happen to concur. Our primary residence represents less than 25% of our net worth and doesn't figure at all into our retirement financing plans.

sinnikal · 28th October 2022, 06:30 AM

I have only ever owned 1 house. I have lived in 8. When I was making good money (some years ago now) we improved our house a lot (most of the work ourselves) and made a fair bit when we moved to our next house. Rinse and repeat. When I decided I'd had enough of work at 48 y.o., we sold our London house for what we thought was a fortune, in hindsight it wasn't, so we moved to a rural area that we liked with cash left over and did the same again a couple of times, ending up in a slightly less rural, but still a very small town area, Living in a 4 storey, 14 room house. I haven't had a mortgage since 1995.

The main reason this worked was because of the lack of taxation on capital gains made from your primary residence in the UK - and the stupid rise of London prices. Since then we've downsized a lot and now live in southern Spain where you are taxed fairly heavily on property capital gains. None of this was done with an eye to making money, we just had the ability to move into houses that we liked.
We now have a tiny income, a reasonable bit of capital and live in a house we love right on the beach with decent weather.

Of course the kids will never be able to afford to buy their own houses until we die. Unless things go really tits up, here is where we'll die.

The UK housing market is mostly ****** because of the no taxation on capital gains from your primary residence and people like me who have benefited from it.

steenkh · 28th October 2022, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by shuttlt

Do you not benefit from rising prices when you sell? It seems like a terrible investment if you really get nothing from this.

The point is that I’m not selling: I intend to live here until I die.
Owning my own house - or more specifically my own flat - has been a good investment for me because having paid off my loans, I can live here very cheap.

However, exploding house prices is causing the taxes to explode, and economists are constantly asking our government to tax property instead of wages - which in my case, being retired and having a low income, would mean disaster. But that is Danish politics, and probably having no bearing on the topic at hand.

dudalb · 28th October 2022, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

It's the same value as the old house is now but more valuable than the old one was when you moved in. So you're now in a more expensive house that you then proceed to improve, and you sell it for more than you bought it for, and you work your way up the ladder buying and improving more and more valuable houses. If you're good enough at it, you can pocket some of the sell price and eventually get yourself a second house.

It's called "flipping" and apparently some people get quite wealthy doing it.

And I don't see anything inherent wrong with it.
Of course, like anything else, it can be abused.

Vixen · 29th October 2022, 04:06 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

OMFG, the Daily Mail, and by extension its readers, will lose their collective **** over this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63411783

The British obsession with home ownership is, IMO, a blight on the UK economy. Too much of the national wealth is locked into property making it unavailable for more productive forms of investment. The cost and hassle of selling up and moving house negatively impacts on the movement of labour and people have to spend a disproportionate amount of income on housing.

A drop in wealth of this scale could prove immensely damaging to the already very weak British economy.

The problem started with Thatcher - albeit a continuation of the post-war housing demand and a massive council house building exercise - allowing council house tenants the right-to-buy at discounted prices based on rent paid to date. This enabled huge swathes of former council tenants to buy their way up the property ladder and out of the depressed areas to leafier ones. This had the effect of a new affluent working class some of whom simply started buying up a 'property portfolio' being heady with new found wealth, especially in the City, which draws a large part of its work force from the East End and Essex (where the former working classes moved out to en masse), many of whom now found themselves cheek-by-jowl with the toffs on the trading room floors, popularly known as 'wide boys' because of their aggressive need to make 'oadsa money'.

However, after a couple of market crashes and booms and busts (Black Friday/Black Wednesday/Northern Rock) we now have a situation of a severe housing shortage, especially as many of the new builds in London in particular are bought up by foreign investors and left empty most of the year, and with a whole new landlord class with second properties buyiing-to-let.

This means, when there is a panic about house prices falling, the self-same landlords now have to consider selling up 'before it crashes' and many tenants left in very precarious positions facing eviction with nowhere to go. Rents taking up a huge part of disposable income and wages stagnant.

People are finding there is more to property than 'making loads money'.

Vixen · 29th October 2022, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

Well it's not a good look for Rishi either. Either he has to sack her pronto, making himself look stupid and an enemy out of the ERG, or he keeps her on, an albatross around his neck.

He's going to try and ride it out.

Lovely to see the party fighting like cats in a sack. Jake Berry going to the media to split on Braverman. There was a time this would not have happened.

Vixen · 29th October 2022, 04:16 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

This bunch of scumbags have been breaking the ministerial code right left and centre for years and just brazening it out, it seemed clear to me her resignation was politically motivated. She did it so she could write that resignation letter essentially bragging about honourable she was to resign after making a trivial mistake (which is certainly how she would have seen it), to make Truss look bad if she didn't resign after making much bigger ones. I have no doubt that Sunak promised he would reappoint her as soon as he succeeded Truss before she agreed to do it.

It would be absolutely hilarious if this cynical scheme backfired on her.

This is where Braverman betrays her immaturity and lack of knowledge of basic etiquette. As if we cannot see her. As if we are all exclaiming, 'Oh I say, bravo, what a jolly good fellow! Immediately doing the honorable thing! Hurrah! How jolly dee! Hip-hip...'

Vixen · 29th October 2022, 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

The idea is that you buy a house at a certain price, then when the price goes up you sell it and use that money to buy a more expensive house. Rinse and repeat.

That is so 1980's.

Vixen · 29th October 2022, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

It's the same value as the old house is now but more valuable than the old one was when you moved in. So you're now in a more expensive house that you then proceed to improve, and you sell it for more than you bought it for, and you work your way up the ladder buying and improving more and more valuable houses. If you're good enough at it, you can pocket some of the sell price and eventually get yourself a second house.

It's called "flipping" and apparently some people get quite wealthy doing it.

One of the most popular and long-enduring UK tv series is something called 'Homes Under the Hammer'. The basic idea is to buy a house at an auction for the lowest possible price, do it up and then sell it or rent it at a profit. All very entertaining, watching a crumbling near derelict house having its old wiring, windows, tiles, walls ripped out by a couple of mates or a young lad or lass with a parent and transforming it into something out of House Beautiful. A couple of 'independent' estate agents come along to inspect he 'after' and estimate its new cost on the market or rental yield. Great television.

However, the truth is, whilst some might find a former worker's cottage in a former coalmining town delightfully quaint want to buy up at a hugely knock-down price (the mines closed years ago), in reality, once the cosmetic cover of new plaster and kitchen cabinets fades, the cracks in the wall begin to reappear and the mice return. Nobody want to buy it from you. The only people who will rent are the desperate, drug addicts and benefit claimants deeply in arrears who do a moonlight over and over again (see the series in the GUARDIAN) and you are stuck with a white elephant. The reality is far grimmer than HUTH likes to paint. In fact the paint is now peeling to reveal all kinds of cowboy crimes below.

Some get wealthy, sure, but these will be people who are either specialist builders (craftsmen) or people with loadsa money in the first place.

In the meantime, a young couple with a couple of kids and another on the way just want somewhere to live.

Vixen · 29th October 2022, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

In the UK and the US yes, but at what cost and why is ownership so important ?

In the UK a lot people are going very heavily into debt and taking on mortgage payments they can barely afford at historically low interest rates, those costs are only going to rise, in order to get on the housing ladder.

If you recall, one of the drivers of the 2008 financial collapse were unaffordable "sub-prime" mortgages in the US which were there to give the illusion of home ownership to people who cannot afford houses.

I understand, the UK rental market is ******. If you want secure accommodation in decent quality property then the only way to ensure that is to buy. In other markets, Germany and Scandinavia for example, that can be achieved without having to buy. You can get good, secure accommodation without having to go heavily into debt and have the added benefit that moving is a lot less difficult and expensive (with transaction taxes figured in, it would cost Mrs Don and I well over £20k to move house).

The standard narrative is that it's always cheaper to rent than to own and that you're just paying off a landlord's property loan. Mrs Don and I rent out an apartment which we conservatively value at around £400k. We rent it out at £1,250 a month - less than half of what it would cost for a 90% mortgage and our tenants don't have a £360k debt.

A properly functioning property market would have a good mixture of private ownership, private rentals and social rentals. People wouldn't have to go heavily into debt to afford acceptable accommodation - it would instead be a choice and this would in turn release a huge amount of capital to be used more effectively.

Mrs Don and I are comparatively unusual in the UK. Despite owning two properties (Don Towers and our rental property in Bristol), property accounts for less than 30% of our net worth. For many people and families it's far, far higher and in some cases it's more than 100%.

Only to a limited extent in Sweden. In Sweden housing is so short (it is not just in the UK) that as soon as a property goes on the market, it is immediately snapped up. Sweden does have a model that could be emulated in the UK, that of bostadsrätt where instead of a young couple having to save up for a huge deposit and then a punitive monthly mortgage, they would just put up the deposit (roughly 15% of the value of the property) and then pay a hyrid-style monthly fee. The closest equivalent in the UK would be a cross between a lease and an unfurnished flat tenancy except legally you have owner's rights and on leaving are entitled to your deposit back plus any increase in value of what you paid, plus you can bequeath it in your will to others, and unlike a lease, there is no time limit and it is yours for life, unless you move. Plus you can rent it out and live elsewhere. Having said this, this type of scheme is immensely popular and highly so sought-after in Sweden that they also go as soon as they are advertised. I am surprised this type of condominium arrangement, popular in the USA isn't common in the UK as it could solve a lot of problems in (a) getting on the housing ladder (b) being affordable to the average young couple on an average salary and (c) being good quality housing suitable for a young family.

The save-to-buy scheme, now discontinued for new savers, which works like an ISA, with the government contributing 25% to whatever deposit you save for a property was on paper a useful idea. However, this was usually for new builds which seemed to almost immediately depreciate in value, leaving people with negative equity and hugely expensive monthly mortgage payments.

I am not aware the government has done anything at all since to help people with housing.

Darat · 29th October 2022, 04:58 AM

We have such schemes in the UK, had them since the 1990s.

Lothian · 29th October 2022, 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

We have such schemes in the UK, had them since the 1990s.

Shared ownership with staircasing options, as you say, have been around for yonks. Tended to be run by HAs but I see it has spread.

Vixen · 29th October 2022, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

In the UK capital gains on your primary residence are not subject to capital gains.

There have been occasions where MPs have changed their primary residence (IIRC the minimum is for a year) so as to avoid capital gains on an investment property (or the flat that the UK taxpayer has paid for).

The sums aren't trivial. We would have to pay around £130k in capital gains if we were to sell our Bristol apartment. There's a real incentive to declare it as our primary residence (and maybe even live there) if we needed to do so.

I'm guessing you are calculating roughly 28% of the estimated value of circa £450,000...? Don't forget, you only pay CGT on the goodwill (original value less the new value less associated legal costs) plus the first £12,300, is your tax-free personal allowance for the year on CGT. You can also include your spouse's allowance so the CGT payable would be £450K less what you paid originally if post 1987 (when the tax law changed), less costs, less the personal allowance of £24.6K (if applicable). So the real tax payable would be more like £80K. (However, if your spouse is a US citizen it might be best to take advice on whether it is cheaper for her to declare US tax than pay UK tax!)

Vixen · 29th October 2022, 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by shuttlt

If you'd rather not rent, downsize or move to a cheaper area.... then I don't know what to tell you. I can't spend my savings either, and keep collecting interest on them. If people complain they can't access the benefit of eating the cake and yet still have the cake, then there is no solution.

The difference is, you get to enjoy your property now. IMV there is far more to a home than its market value. I have lived in many places. For me, far more important that value is the quality of architecture, aspect, scenery and location. Of course, this is where value is derived. If you want a house overlooking Malibu beach and the sun shines all year round then it will cost more than a pebble dash ex-council house in Stoke-on-Trent.

Vixen · 29th October 2022, 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

We have such schemes in the UK, had them since the 1990s.

AFAIAA it is very much a nordics thing.

Quote:

[bostadsrättsförening] Housing rights are available in Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland. In the rest of the world, there is hardly an exact equivalent to a condominium. Instead, cooperative ownership is used, similar to the form of owner -occupied flat , i.e. with a lower degree of community in the management.

ibid

That is why I mentioned it as a possible solution in the UK.

jimbob · 29th October 2022, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Liz Truss's personal phone was hacked by Putin's spies for top secret details of negotiations with allies and private messages she exchanged with Kwasi Kwarteng

<snip>

Also included up to year's worth of messages, some top-secret about Ukraine

Source told Mail on Sunday phone was so compromised it is now in a locked safe

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...otiations.html

Lothian · 29th October 2022, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by jimbob

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...otiations.html

Is this a work phone? Her only meaningful act as PM was sacking someone for having work stuff on non work equipment

Wudang · 29th October 2022, 01:15 PM

Quote:

The breach was discovered when Truss, then the foreign secretary, was running for the Tory leadership in the summer, but details were suppressed by the then-prime minister, Boris Johnson, and the cabinet secretary, Simon Case, the Mail on Sunday reported.

Spies suspected of working for the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, gained access to sensitive information, including discussions about the Ukraine war with foreign officials

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...one-was-hacked

Vixen · 29th October 2022, 01:23 PM

Liz Truss' phone breach reveal - so how come it's only come out now as this supposedly happened in July? Guessing the 'close source' is someone sympathetic to Leaky Sue. Rishi's Revenge.

Meanwhile:

Quote:

A row over prime minister Rishi Sunak’s refusal to attend the Cop27 climate summit took an extraordinary twist on Saturday night as the Observer was informed that his predecessor but one – Boris Johnson – is planning to attend the event.

GUARDIAN

Who would have thought BoJo could ever claim the higher moral ground?

Everybody was gung-ho fighting.

The Don · 30th October 2022, 04:41 AM

Shock horror. It seems that Braverman lied about reporting the email security breach quickly, apparently it took several hours.

Planigale · 30th October 2022, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Liz Truss' phone breach reveal - so how come it's only come out now as this supposedly happened in July? Guessing the 'close source' is someone sympathetic to Leaky Sue. Rishi's Revenge.

Meanwhile:

GUARDIAN

Who would have thought BoJo could ever claim the higher moral ground?

Everybody was gung-ho fighting.

Assuming the security service found out the phone was hacked the last thing you want to do is announce it. You use the hacked phone to put out disinformation. If you do it carefully the opposition will not know at which point the information they are listening in on becomes disinformation. So you compromise the value of the information they have already intercepted.

The public announcement suggests that the phone is now known by both sides to be compromised. The last value to the phone to the Russians would be to out it, so embarrassing an enemy of Russia. It also may be helpful to compromise others who have had their phone hacked as the mere fact the phone was hacked can then be used to blackmail the owner into co-operating in future.

Carrot Flower King · 30th October 2022, 10:40 AM

Oh look - https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ged-misconduct - another Tory politician with their nose deep in the trough.

Why is this sort of lobbying and holding of other jobs still allowed?

jeremyp · 30th October 2022, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by The Don

Yes, but the suggestion is that Rees-Mogg hadn't read Shakespeare, merely watched the Branagh film and then used the date to give the illusion of erudition.

Have you seen the way he dresses? He's far more likely to have read or seen the play than darken the doors of the local picture place and he's probably never seen a televisual apparatus in his entire life.

Honestly, Rees Smog is the product of the British Public* School system. I guarantee he knows his Shakespeare.

*Note for Americans: in Britain, public schools are actually private.

jimbob · 30th October 2022, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

Have you seen the way he dresses? He's far more likely to have read or seen the play than darken the doors of the local picture place and he's probably never seen a televisual apparatus in his entire life.

Honestly, Rees Smog is the product of the British Public* School system. I guarantee he knows his Shakespeare.

*Note for Americans: in Britain, public schools are actually private.

I don't doubt that he was taught Shakespeare but there's no reason to believe that he's not forgotten it.

jeremyp · 30th October 2022, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

Yes, I've never understood how the value of the house I live in going up benefits me. If I sell it I'll be homeless, and buying an equivalent new home will cost just as much plus a lot of additional expense.

Because the debt you owe i.e. the mortgage, theoretically becomes a smaller proportion of the value of the house over time. Then after 25 years, you have a whole house and no debt.

Even if you sell the house before the mortgage is up or worse, find you can no longer afford the payments, as long as the house price has been rising, you'll be able to sell it, pay off the mortgage and have some money in hand.

If house prices are going down, and you find you cannot service the debt, you can still sell the house but you may find the proceeds do not cover what you owe the lender.

P.J. Denyer · 30th October 2022, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

Have you seen the way he dresses? He's far more likely to have read or seen the play than darken the doors of the local picture place and he's probably never seen a televisual apparatus in his entire life.

Honestly, Rees Smog is the product of the British Public* School system. I guarantee he knows his Shakespeare.

*Note for Americans: in Britain, public schools are actually private.

No, I think he has a TV, it's a CRT & his idea of modern culture is 'availiable on VHS'.

Ian Osborne · 30th October 2022, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

Because the debt you owe i.e. the mortgage, theoretically becomes a smaller proportion of the value of the house over time. Then after 25 years, you have a whole house and no debt.

Exactly. When you buy, the money you pay in mortgage is retained in the value of your house. When you rent, the money is simply lost.

My partner and I bought because we got sick of sentences that started, 'If this was our house...' There's only so much you're prepared to do to improve a house that will never be yours. Decorating? To a degree. New carpets? Never. And definitely no new kitchen or bathroom suite.

Vixen · 30th October 2022, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

Because the debt you owe i.e. the mortgage, theoretically becomes a smaller proportion of the value of the house over time. Then after 25 years, you have a whole house and no debt.

Even if you sell the house before the mortgage is up or worse, find you can no longer afford the payments, as long as the house price has been rising, you'll be able to sell it, pay off the mortgage and have some money in hand.

If house prices are going down, and you find you cannot service the debt, you can still sell the house but you may find the proceeds do not cover what you owe the lender.

I think the point Pixel42 is making is that even if she sells the house for more than its original value, because all other house prices have increased in value similarly, then what you get in a sale is then used to buy another at a similar price.

Of course, it was far easier back in the day to be earning an average salary and to be able to buy, which young couples can't do today.

Vixen · 30th October 2022, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Planigale

Assuming the security service found out the phone was hacked the last thing you want to do is announce it. You use the hacked phone to put out disinformation. If you do it carefully the opposition will not know at which point the information they are listening in on becomes disinformation. So you compromise the value of the information they have already intercepted.

The public announcement suggests that the phone is now known by both sides to be compromised. The last value to the phone to the Russians would be to out it, so embarrassing an enemy of Russia. It also may be helpful to compromise others who have had their phone hacked as the mere fact the phone was hacked can then be used to blackmail the owner into co-operating in future.

It is strange then that the story has come out now.

Quote:

Spies suspected of working for Russia are thought to have gained access to sensitive information when Truss was foreign secretary, including official discussions about the war in Ukraine.

Sunak has been urged to launch an investigation into the alleged hacking amid claims it was suppressed by Boris Johnson during this summer’s Tory leadership contest. Simon Case, the cabinet secretary, imposed a “news blackout” fearing that it could influence the election, according to The Mail on Sunday, which broke the story.

<snip>

It remains unclear when Truss’s phone was allegedly hacked. She had travelled to Russia for talks with Sergei Lavrov, the foreign minister, a few weeks before the invasion of Ukraine.

Up to a year’s worth of messages are thought to have been downloaded from the phone, which is now being forensically examined in a secure location. Private conversations between Truss and her future chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng, which included criticism of Johnson, were among the material allegedly accessed, potentially leaving the two most senior figures in government at risk of blackmail.

TIMES

Some kind of D-notice was put on a very serious breach (why would Truss use her personal phone and why did it have a year's worth of confidential protected stuff on it?). We are not told when the hacking happened.

It may well be 'nothing' as claimed for Braverman's breach. However, this is not the point. I can't see how Simon Case can just shrug it off as a 'mistake', when Braverman must have consciously forwarded the document to her personal email with the intention of sending it to John Hyde, a leading ERG-er, and did insert a cc but to a wrong person. She claimed that she used her personal phone because she was at a police op at the time and didn't have the government phone with her. This turned out to be a lie, as the police op was at 4:00am and her message was sent much later at circa 8:00am. Further, she didn't own up. The 'cc'-ed person reported it and Braverman was advised to resign.

ISTM that breaking the rules and breaching national security has become the new norm, ever since Boris Johnson cocked a snook at honesty and integrity as a near matter of course and now they all do it and expect everyone to 'move on' if they say, 'I am sorry if I upset anyone'. Johnson breached national security quite seriously in shaking off his personal protection to fly to Lebedev's villa immediately after a N.A.T.O. conference and was pictured with what looked like documents from the meeting under his arm. Johnson admitted to the Select Committee that Senior ex-KGB Lebedev was present.

This is a far cry from when Prime Minister John Profumo resigned after sleeping with Christine Keeler, because she had also slept with a KGB agent but denied being a honey trap or passing on UK secrets to the KGB guy.

There was Chris Huhne resigned as an MP when convicted of perverting the course of justice by pretending his partner was driving the car in a motoring offence.

Jonathan Aitkin resigned in 1995 following the allegations that he had violated ministerial rules. His entire political career was ruined by his abortive libel case when he was convicted of perjury and perverting the course of justice.

Likewise Jeffrey Archer, similarly.

What do we have now? In the midst of a serious war between Ukraine and Russia with the UK pledging defence support to Ukraine, we have a Foreign Secretary and a Home Secretary breaching M15 etiquette yet telling us all that it doesn't really matter.

Why is Simon Case not investigating the issues properly, instead of shrugging it all off because BoJo or Sunak told him to? How does he know it is all innocuous without an investigation and not a situation worse than Blunt and Philby in the Cold War, double agents for the Soviet Union, passing UK official secrets to to a hostile force? Nobody knows who exactly is funding ERG via the 'public funds'. Aron Banks lost his suit against a journalist Carole Cadwallr, who alleged his Vote Leave Campaign seemed to have been funded by Russia.

There was a time when treason was taken seriously and not fobbed off so that BoJo can get his candidate to win the leadership race and personally censor the press to do so.

Vixen · 30th October 2022, 02:44 PM

Compare and contrast how this naval officer was treated for sending an email message inadvertently giving away the location of her submarine compared to Truss and Braverman leaking potentially sensitive official secrets:

Quote:

Brook resigned this year but was formally dismissed in June and handed a four-month suspended prison sentence by a court martial for disclosing information useful to an enemy, after she sent an email which revealed the location of her submarine. She now lives in West Sussex.

TIMES

Time to take the security breaches in government seriously.

p0lka · 30th October 2022, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King

Oh look - https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ged-misconduct - another Tory politician with their nose deep in the trough.

Why is this sort of lobbying and holding of other jobs still allowed?

The tories do it until the public vote them out.

Then as in the past, sit in opposition with media on their side sniping from the sidelines and wait until they get voted in again to cream wealth off yet again.

Detestable.

LondonJohn · 30th October 2022, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

The tories do it until the public vote them out.

Then as in the past, sit in opposition with media on their side sniping from the sidelines and wait until they get voted in again to cream wealth off yet again.

Detestable.

Another seedy despicable Tory being caught engaging in serious misconduct:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...chris-matheson

Detestable.

Oh, wait........................

Guybrush Threepwood · 30th October 2022, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Another seedy despicable Tory being caught engaging in serious misconduct:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...chris-matheson

Detestable.

Oh, wait........................

Disgusting! And he didn't even have the decency to resign like all the Tories caught engaging in serious misconduct.

Oh, wait..............................

Gulliver Foyle · 31st October 2022, 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by Planigale

Assuming the security service found out the phone was hacked the last thing you want to do is announce it. You use the hacked phone to put out disinformation. If you do it carefully the opposition will not know at which point the information they are listening in on becomes disinformation. So you compromise the value of the information they have already intercepted.

The public announcement suggests that the phone is now known by both sides to be compromised. The last value to the phone to the Russians would be to out it, so embarrassing an enemy of Russia. It also may be helpful to compromise others who have had their phone hacked as the mere fact the phone was hacked can then be used to blackmail the owner into co-operating in future.

Problem with that kind of thinking is that it depends on competence on the part of MI5/MI6 and BoJo the Clown thinking in the national interest. The real reason is that BoJo copped on that having Truss in the party leader mix was his best route back into No 10 down the line.

Planigale · 31st October 2022, 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

Problem with that kind of thinking is that it depends on competence on the part of MI5/MI6 and BoJo the Clown thinking in the national interest. The real reason is that BoJo copped on that having Truss in the party leader mix was his best route back into No 10 down the line.

This would be the responsibility of the Security Service, not SIS. Although I guess GCHQ would be very involved. SIS might advise on disinformation.

The security service will have a very standardised response, isolate it, clone it, review what has been compromised and decide on whether to keep running it as a disinformation system. I suspect the prime minister has little involvement in the operational decisions.

I am not sure that there is necessarily any blame on the owner of the phone.

Darat · 31st October 2022, 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood

Disgusting! And he didn't even have the decency to resign like all the Tories caught engaging in serious misconduct.

Oh, wait..............................

Resign is yet another of those words that the meaning has changed, us old folk still think it means "to leave one's employment voluntarily", the modern usage is "to take a few days unpaid leave from one's employment".

Lothian · 31st October 2022, 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by Planigale

.

I am not sure that there is necessarily any blame on the owner of the phone.

I agree. Unless it is a phone which she has been told not to use for classified information.

28th October 2022, 06:04 AM	#1521
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 54,662	Originally Posted by erwinl Highlighted. Because here in the Netherlands owning a house with a typical mortgage is much cheaper than renting a similar house. Much the same here; my son-in-law has just accepted a job which comes with a house. They'll be able to let out their current house for about three times in rent what they are paying for the mortgage.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

28th October 2022, 06:54 AM	#1526
steenkh Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 6,653	Originally Posted by shuttlt Do you not benefit from rising prices when you sell? It seems like a terrible investment if you really get nothing from this. The point is that I’m not selling: I intend to live here until I die. Owning my own house - or more specifically my own flat - has been a good investment for me because having paid off my loans, I can live here very cheap. However, exploding house prices is causing the taxes to explode, and economists are constantly asking our government to tax property instead of wages - which in my case, being retired and having a low income, would mean disaster. But that is Danish politics, and probably having no bearing on the topic at hand.
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

28th October 2022, 12:24 PM	#1527
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,211	Originally Posted by arthwollipot It's the same value as the old house is now but more valuable than the old one was when you moved in. So you're now in a more expensive house that you then proceed to improve, and you sell it for more than you bought it for, and you work your way up the ladder buying and improving more and more valuable houses. If you're good enough at it, you can pocket some of the sell price and eventually get yourself a second house. It's called "flipping" and apparently some people get quite wealthy doing it. And I don't see anything inherent wrong with it. Of course, like anything else, it can be abused.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

29th October 2022, 04:06 AM	#1528
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 31,485	Originally Posted by The Don OMFG, the Daily Mail, and by extension its readers, will lose their collective **** over this. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63411783 The British obsession with home ownership is, IMO, a blight on the UK economy. Too much of the national wealth is locked into property making it unavailable for more productive forms of investment. The cost and hassle of selling up and moving house negatively impacts on the movement of labour and people have to spend a disproportionate amount of income on housing. A drop in wealth of this scale could prove immensely damaging to the already very weak British economy. The problem started with Thatcher - albeit a continuation of the post-war housing demand and a massive council house building exercise - allowing council house tenants the right-to-buy at discounted prices based on rent paid to date. This enabled huge swathes of former council tenants to buy their way up the property ladder and out of the depressed areas to leafier ones. This had the effect of a new affluent working class some of whom simply started buying up a 'property portfolio' being heady with new found wealth, especially in the City, which draws a large part of its work force from the East End and Essex (where the former working classes moved out to en masse), many of whom now found themselves cheek-by-jowl with the toffs on the trading room floors, popularly known as 'wide boys' because of their aggressive need to make 'oadsa money'. However, after a couple of market crashes and booms and busts (Black Friday/Black Wednesday/Northern Rock) we now have a situation of a severe housing shortage, especially as many of the new builds in London in particular are bought up by foreign investors and left empty most of the year, and with a whole new landlord class with second properties buyiing-to-let. This means, when there is a panic about house prices falling, the self-same landlords now have to consider selling up 'before it crashes' and many tenants left in very precarious positions facing eviction with nowhere to go. Rents taking up a huge part of disposable income and wages stagnant. People are finding there is more to property than 'making loads money'.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

29th October 2022, 04:09 AM	#1529
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 31,485	Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle Well it's not a good look for Rishi either. Either he has to sack her pronto, making himself look stupid and an enemy out of the ERG, or he keeps her on, an albatross around his neck. He's going to try and ride it out. Lovely to see the party fighting like cats in a sack. Jake Berry going to the media to split on Braverman. There was a time this would not have happened.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

28th October 2022, 06:15 AM	#1522
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 35,974	Originally Posted by zooterkin Much the same here; my son-in-law has just accepted a job which comes with a house. They'll be able to let out their current house for about three times in rent what they are paying for the mortgage. I guess the Bristol property market is just different. To borrow £360k to buy our flat would currently cost about £2k a month. There's no way on earth we could think of charging £6k a month as I've said we charge £1,250. Don Towers would cost about twice that as a mortgage payment, there's no way we could charge £3k a month, much less £12k

28th October 2022, 06:27 AM	#1523
shuttlt Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 10,094	Originally Posted by Pixel42 I've paid off my mortgage. If I sell my house and rent instead, that will increase my monthly outgoings considerably. If I rent somewhere similar to my current home, I estimate that the money from the sale will pay that rent for 15 - 20 years. Then what? If you'd rather not rent, downsize or move to a cheaper area.... then I don't know what to tell you. I can't spend my savings either, and keep collecting interest on them. If people complain they can't access the benefit of eating the cake and yet still have the cake, then there is no solution.

28th October 2022, 06:30 AM	#1524
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 35,974	Originally Posted by shuttlt If you'd rather not rent, downsize or move to a cheaper area.... then I don't know what to tell you. I can't spend my savings either, and keep collecting interest on them. If people complain they can't access the benefit of eating the cake and yet still have the cake, then there is no solution. Pixel42 is pointing out that having your primary residence as your main (possibly sole) asset is a pretty poor way to invest your money due to the illiquidity of that asset and the cost, time and hassle of releasing the value in that asset. I happen to concur. Our primary residence represents less than 25% of our net worth and doesn't figure at all into our retirement financing plans.

28th October 2022, 06:30 AM	#1525
sinnikal Thinker Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Right on the beach, SW Spain Posts: 181	I have only ever owned 1 house. I have lived in 8. When I was making good money (some years ago now) we improved our house a lot (most of the work ourselves) and made a fair bit when we moved to our next house. Rinse and repeat. When I decided I'd had enough of work at 48 y.o., we sold our London house for what we thought was a fortune, in hindsight it wasn't, so we moved to a rural area that we liked with cash left over and did the same again a couple of times, ending up in a slightly less rural, but still a very small town area, Living in a 4 storey, 14 room house. I haven't had a mortgage since 1995. The main reason this worked was because of the lack of taxation on capital gains made from your primary residence in the UK - and the stupid rise of London prices. Since then we've downsized a lot and now live in southern Spain where you are taxed fairly heavily on property capital gains. None of this was done with an eye to making money, we just had the ability to move into houses that we liked. We now have a tiny income, a reasonable bit of capital and live in a house we love right on the beach with decent weather. Of course the kids will never be able to afford to buy their own houses until we die. Unless things go really tits up, here is where we'll die. The UK housing market is mostly ****** because of the no taxation on capital gains from your primary residence and people like me who have benefited from it.

29th October 2022, 04:16 AM	#1530
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 31,485	Originally Posted by Pixel42 This bunch of scumbags have been breaking the ministerial code right left and centre for years and just brazening it out, it seemed clear to me her resignation was politically motivated. She did it so she could write that resignation letter essentially bragging about honourable she was to resign after making a trivial mistake (which is certainly how she would have seen it), to make Truss look bad if she didn't resign after making much bigger ones. I have no doubt that Sunak promised he would reappoint her as soon as he succeeded Truss before she agreed to do it. It would be absolutely hilarious if this cynical scheme backfired on her. This is where Braverman betrays her immaturity and lack of knowledge of basic etiquette. As if we cannot see her. As if we are all exclaiming, 'Oh I say, bravo, what a jolly good fellow! Immediately doing the honorable thing! Hurrah! How jolly dee! Hip-hip...'
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

29th October 2022, 04:18 AM	#1531
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 31,485	Originally Posted by arthwollipot The idea is that you buy a house at a certain price, then when the price goes up you sell it and use that money to buy a more expensive house. Rinse and repeat. That is so 1980's.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

29th October 2022, 04:34 AM	#1532
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 31,485	Originally Posted by arthwollipot It's the same value as the old house is now but more valuable than the old one was when you moved in. So you're now in a more expensive house that you then proceed to improve, and you sell it for more than you bought it for, and you work your way up the ladder buying and improving more and more valuable houses. If you're good enough at it, you can pocket some of the sell price and eventually get yourself a second house. It's called "flipping" and apparently some people get quite wealthy doing it. One of the most popular and long-enduring UK tv series is something called 'Homes Under the Hammer'. The basic idea is to buy a house at an auction for the lowest possible price, do it up and then sell it or rent it at a profit. All very entertaining, watching a crumbling near derelict house having its old wiring, windows, tiles, walls ripped out by a couple of mates or a young lad or lass with a parent and transforming it into something out of House Beautiful. A couple of 'independent' estate agents come along to inspect he 'after' and estimate its new cost on the market or rental yield. Great television. However, the truth is, whilst some might find a former worker's cottage in a former coalmining town delightfully quaint want to buy up at a hugely knock-down price (the mines closed years ago), in reality, once the cosmetic cover of new plaster and kitchen cabinets fades, the cracks in the wall begin to reappear and the mice return. Nobody want to buy it from you. The only people who will rent are the desperate, drug addicts and benefit claimants deeply in arrears who do a moonlight over and over again (see the series in the GUARDIAN) and you are stuck with a white elephant. The reality is far grimmer than HUTH likes to paint. In fact the paint is now peeling to reveal all kinds of cowboy crimes below. Some get wealthy, sure, but these will be people who are either specialist builders (craftsmen) or people with loadsa money in the first place. In the meantime, a young couple with a couple of kids and another on the way just want somewhere to live.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

29th October 2022, 04:53 AM	#1533
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 31,485	Originally Posted by The Don In the UK and the US yes, but at what cost and why is ownership so important ? In the UK a lot people are going very heavily into debt and taking on mortgage payments they can barely afford at historically low interest rates, those costs are only going to rise, in order to get on the housing ladder. If you recall, one of the drivers of the 2008 financial collapse were unaffordable "sub-prime" mortgages in the US which were there to give the illusion of home ownership to people who cannot afford houses. I understand, the UK rental market is *****. If you want secure accommodation in decent quality property then the only way to ensure that is to buy. In other markets, Germany and Scandinavia for example, that can be achieved without having to buy. You can get good, secure accommodation without having to go heavily into debt and have the added benefit that moving is a lot less difficult and expensive (with transaction taxes figured in, it would cost Mrs Don and I well over £20k to move house). The standard narrative is that it's always cheaper to rent than to own and that you're just paying off a landlord's property loan. Mrs Don and I rent out an apartment which we conservatively value at around £400k. We rent it out at £1,250 a month - less than half of what it would cost for a 90% mortgage and our tenants don't have a £360k debt. A properly functioning property market would have a good mixture of private ownership, private rentals and social rentals. People wouldn't have to go heavily into debt to afford acceptable accommodation - it would instead be a choice and this would in turn release a huge amount of capital to be used more effectively. Mrs Don and I are comparatively unusual in the UK. Despite owning two properties (Don Towers and our rental property in Bristol), property accounts for less than 30% of our net worth. For many people and families it's far, far higher and in some cases it's more than 100%. Only to a limited extent in Sweden. In Sweden housing is so short (it is not just in the UK) that as soon as a property goes on the market, it is immediately snapped up. Sweden does have a model that could be emulated in the UK, that of bostadsrätt* where instead of a young couple having to save up for a huge deposit and then a punitive monthly mortgage, they would just put up the deposit (roughly 15% of the value of the property) and then pay a hyrid-style monthly fee. The closest equivalent in the UK would be a cross between a lease and an unfurnished flat tenancy except legally you have owner's rights and on leaving are entitled to your deposit back plus any increase in value of what you paid, plus you can bequeath it in your will to others, and unlike a lease, there is no time limit and it is yours for life, unless you move. Plus you can rent it out and live elsewhere. Having said this, this type of scheme is immensely popular and highly so sought-after in Sweden that they also go as soon as they are advertised. I am surprised this type of condominium arrangement, popular in the USA isn't common in the UK as it could solve a lot of problems in (a) getting on the housing ladder (b) being affordable to the average young couple on an average salary and (c) being good quality housing suitable for a young family. The save-to-buy scheme, now discontinued for new savers, which works like an ISA, with the government contributing 25% to whatever deposit you save for a property was on paper a useful idea. However, this was usually for new builds which seemed to almost immediately depreciate in value, leaving people with negative equity and hugely expensive monthly mortgage payments. I am not aware the government has done anything at all since to help people with housing.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

29th October 2022, 04:58 AM	#1534
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 106,884	We have such schemes in the UK, had them since the 1990s.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

29th October 2022, 05:07 AM	#1535
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 18,215	Originally Posted by Darat We have such schemes in the UK, had them since the 1990s. Shared ownership with staircasing options, as you say, have been around for yonks. Tended to be run by HAs but I see it has spread.
	Last edited by Lothian; 29th October 2022 at 05:08 AM.

29th October 2022, 05:12 AM	#1536
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 31,485	Originally Posted by The Don In the UK capital gains on your primary residence are not subject to capital gains. There have been occasions where MPs have changed their primary residence (IIRC the minimum is for a year) so as to avoid capital gains on an investment property (or the flat that the UK taxpayer has paid for). The sums aren't trivial. We would have to pay around £130k in capital gains if we were to sell our Bristol apartment. There's a real incentive to declare it as our primary residence (and maybe even live there) if we needed to do so. I'm guessing you are calculating roughly 28% of the estimated value of circa £450,000...? Don't forget, you only pay CGT on the goodwill (original value less the new value less associated legal costs) plus the first £12,300, is your tax-free personal allowance for the year on CGT. You can also include your spouse's allowance so the CGT payable would be £450K less what you paid originally if post 1987 (when the tax law changed), less costs, less the personal allowance of £24.6K (if applicable). So the real tax payable would be more like £80K. (However, if your spouse is a US citizen it might be best to take advice on whether it is cheaper for her to declare US tax than pay UK tax!)
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

29th October 2022, 05:18 AM	#1537
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 31,485	Originally Posted by shuttlt If you'd rather not rent, downsize or move to a cheaper area.... then I don't know what to tell you. I can't spend my savings either, and keep collecting interest on them. If people complain they can't access the benefit of eating the cake and yet still have the cake, then there is no solution. The difference is, you get to enjoy your property now. IMV there is far more to a home than its market value. I have lived in many places. For me, far more important that value is the quality of architecture, aspect, scenery and location. Of course, this is where value is derived. If you want a house overlooking Malibu beach and the sun shines all year round then it will cost more than a pebble dash ex-council house in Stoke-on-Trent.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

29th October 2022, 05:30 AM	#1538
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 31,485	Originally Posted by Darat We have such schemes in the UK, had them since the 1990s. AFAIAA it is very much a nordics thing. Quote: [bostadsrättsförening] Housing rights are available in Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland. In the rest of the world, there is hardly an exact equivalent to a condominium. Instead, cooperative ownership is used, similar to the form of owner -occupied flat , i.e. with a lower degree of community in the management. ibid That is why I mentioned it as a possible solution in the UK.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

29th October 2022, 11:13 AM	#1539
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 28,563	Quote: Liz Truss's personal phone was hacked by Putin's spies for top secret details of negotiations with allies and private messages she exchanged with Kwasi Kwarteng <snip> Also included up to year's worth of messages, some top-secret about Ukraine Source told Mail on Sunday phone was so compromised it is now in a locked safe https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...otiations.html
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29th October 2022, 12:11 PM	#1540
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 18,215	Originally Posted by jimbob https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...otiations.html Is this a work phone? Her only meaningful act as PM was sacking someone for having work stuff on non work equipment

29th October 2022, 01:15 PM	#1541
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 15,131	Quote: The breach was discovered when Truss, then the foreign secretary, was running for the Tory leadership in the summer, but details were suppressed by the then-prime minister, Boris Johnson, and the cabinet secretary, Simon Case, the Mail on Sunday reported. Spies suspected of working for the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, gained access to sensitive information, including discussions about the Ukraine war with foreign officials https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...one-was-hacked
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

29th October 2022, 01:23 PM	#1542
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 31,485	Liz Truss' phone breach reveal - so how come it's only come out now as this supposedly happened in July? Guessing the 'close source' is someone sympathetic to Leaky Sue. Rishi's Revenge. Meanwhile: Quote: A row over prime minister Rishi Sunak’s refusal to attend the Cop27 climate summit took an extraordinary twist on Saturday night as the Observer was informed that his predecessor but one – Boris Johnson – is planning to attend the event. GUARDIAN Who would have thought BoJo could ever claim the higher moral ground? Everybody was gung-ho fighting.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

30th October 2022, 04:41 AM	#1543
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 35,974	Shock horror. It seems that Braverman lied about reporting the email security breach quickly, apparently it took several hours.

30th October 2022, 06:29 AM	#1544
Planigale Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: 49 North Posts: 5,809	Originally Posted by Vixen Liz Truss' phone breach reveal - so how come it's only come out now as this supposedly happened in July? Guessing the 'close source' is someone sympathetic to Leaky Sue. Rishi's Revenge. Meanwhile: GUARDIAN Who would have thought BoJo could ever claim the higher moral ground? Everybody was gung-ho fighting. Assuming the security service found out the phone was hacked the last thing you want to do is announce it. You use the hacked phone to put out disinformation. If you do it carefully the opposition will not know at which point the information they are listening in on becomes disinformation. So you compromise the value of the information they have already intercepted. The public announcement suggests that the phone is now known by both sides to be compromised. The last value to the phone to the Russians would be to out it, so embarrassing an enemy of Russia. It also may be helpful to compromise others who have had their phone hacked as the mere fact the phone was hacked can then be used to blackmail the owner into co-operating in future.
	Last edited by Planigale; 30th October 2022 at 06:31 AM.

30th October 2022, 10:40 AM	#1545
Carrot Flower King Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 3,377	Oh look - https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ged-misconduct - another Tory politician with their nose deep in the trough. Why is this sort of lobbying and holding of other jobs still allowed?

30th October 2022, 12:01 PM	#1546
jeremyp Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 2,282	Originally Posted by The Don Yes, but the suggestion is that Rees-Mogg hadn't read Shakespeare, merely watched the Branagh film and then used the date to give the illusion of erudition. Have you seen the way he dresses? He's far more likely to have read or seen the play than darken the doors of the local picture place and he's probably never seen a televisual apparatus in his entire life. Honestly, Rees Smog is the product of the British Public* School system. I guarantee he knows his Shakespeare. *Note for Americans: in Britain, public schools are actually private.

30th October 2022, 12:15 PM	#1547
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 28,563	Originally Posted by jeremyp Have you seen the way he dresses? He's far more likely to have read or seen the play than darken the doors of the local picture place and he's probably never seen a televisual apparatus in his entire life. Honestly, Rees Smog is the product of the British Public* School system. I guarantee he knows his Shakespeare. *Note for Americans: in Britain, public schools are actually private. I don't doubt that he was taught Shakespeare but there's no reason to believe that he's not forgotten it.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

30th October 2022, 12:16 PM	#1548
jeremyp Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 2,282	Originally Posted by Pixel42 Yes, I've never understood how the value of the house I live in going up benefits me. If I sell it I'll be homeless, and buying an equivalent new home will cost just as much plus a lot of additional expense. Because the debt you owe i.e. the mortgage, theoretically becomes a smaller proportion of the value of the house over time. Then after 25 years, you have a whole house and no debt. Even if you sell the house before the mortgage is up or worse, find you can no longer afford the payments, as long as the house price has been rising, you'll be able to sell it, pay off the mortgage and have some money in hand. If house prices are going down, and you find you cannot service the debt, you can still sell the house but you may find the proceeds do not cover what you owe the lender.

30th October 2022, 12:32 PM	#1549
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 8,895	Originally Posted by jeremyp Have you seen the way he dresses? He's far more likely to have read or seen the play than darken the doors of the local picture place and he's probably never seen a televisual apparatus in his entire life. Honestly, Rees Smog is the product of the British Public* School system. I guarantee he knows his Shakespeare. *Note for Americans: in Britain, public schools are actually private. No, I think he has a TV, it's a CRT & his idea of modern culture is 'availiable on VHS'.
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 8,895	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

30th October 2022, 01:30 PM	#1550
Ian Osborne JREF Kid Tagger Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,608	Originally Posted by jeremyp Because the debt you owe i.e. the mortgage, theoretically becomes a smaller proportion of the value of the house over time. Then after 25 years, you have a whole house and no debt. Exactly. When you buy, the money you pay in mortgage is retained in the value of your house. When you rent, the money is simply lost. My partner and I bought because we got sick of sentences that started, 'If this was our house...' There's only so much you're prepared to do to improve a house that will never be yours. Decorating? To a degree. New carpets? Never. And definitely no new kitchen or bathroom suite.
	__________________ "Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine "The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan

30th October 2022, 01:51 PM	#1551
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 31,485	Originally Posted by jeremyp Because the debt you owe i.e. the mortgage, theoretically becomes a smaller proportion of the value of the house over time. Then after 25 years, you have a whole house and no debt. Even if you sell the house before the mortgage is up or worse, find you can no longer afford the payments, as long as the house price has been rising, you'll be able to sell it, pay off the mortgage and have some money in hand. If house prices are going down, and you find you cannot service the debt, you can still sell the house but you may find the proceeds do not cover what you owe the lender. I think the point Pixel42 is making is that even if she sells the house for more than its original value, because all other house prices have increased in value similarly, then what you get in a sale is then used to buy another at a similar price. Of course, it was far easier back in the day to be earning an average salary and to be able to buy, which young couples can't do today.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

30th October 2022, 02:29 PM	#1552
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 31,485	Originally Posted by Planigale Assuming the security service found out the phone was hacked the last thing you want to do is announce it. You use the hacked phone to put out disinformation. If you do it carefully the opposition will not know at which point the information they are listening in on becomes disinformation. So you compromise the value of the information they have already intercepted. The public announcement suggests that the phone is now known by both sides to be compromised. The last value to the phone to the Russians would be to out it, so embarrassing an enemy of Russia. It also may be helpful to compromise others who have had their phone hacked as the mere fact the phone was hacked can then be used to blackmail the owner into co-operating in future. It is strange then that the story has come out now. Quote: Spies suspected of working for Russia are thought to have gained access to sensitive information when Truss was foreign secretary, including official discussions about the war in Ukraine. Sunak has been urged to launch an investigation into the alleged hacking amid claims it was suppressed by Boris Johnson during this summer’s Tory leadership contest. Simon Case, the cabinet secretary, imposed a “news blackout” fearing that it could influence the election, according to The Mail on Sunday, which broke the story. <snip> It remains unclear when Truss’s phone was allegedly hacked. She had travelled to Russia for talks with Sergei Lavrov, the foreign minister, a few weeks before the invasion of Ukraine. Up to a year’s worth of messages are thought to have been downloaded from the phone, which is now being forensically examined in a secure location. Private conversations between Truss and her future chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng, which included criticism of Johnson, were among the material allegedly accessed, potentially leaving the two most senior figures in government at risk of blackmail. TIMES Some kind of D-notice was put on a very serious breach (why would Truss use her personal phone and why did it have a year's worth of confidential protected stuff on it?). We are not told when the hacking happened. It may well be 'nothing' as claimed for Braverman's breach. However, this is not the point. I can't see how Simon Case can just shrug it off as a 'mistake', when Braverman must have consciously forwarded the document to her personal email with the intention of sending it to John Hyde, a leading ERG-er, and did insert a cc but to a wrong person. She claimed that she used her personal phone because she was at a police op at the time and didn't have the government phone with her. This turned out to be a lie, as the police op was at 4:00am and her message was sent much later at circa 8:00am. Further, she didn't own up. The 'cc'-ed person reported it and Braverman was advised to resign. ISTM that breaking the rules and breaching national security has become the new norm, ever since Boris Johnson cocked a snook at honesty and integrity as a near matter of course and now they all do it and expect everyone to 'move on' if they say, 'I am sorry if I upset anyone'. Johnson breached national security quite seriously in shaking off his personal protection to fly to Lebedev's villa immediately after a N.A.T.O. conference and was pictured with what looked like documents from the meeting under his arm. Johnson admitted to the Select Committee that Senior ex-KGB Lebedev was present. This is a far cry from when Prime Minister John Profumo resigned after sleeping with Christine Keeler, because she had also slept with a KGB agent but denied being a honey trap or passing on UK secrets to the KGB guy. There was Chris Huhne resigned as an MP when convicted of perverting the course of justice by pretending his partner was driving the car in a motoring offence. Jonathan Aitkin resigned in 1995 following the allegations that he had violated ministerial rules. His entire political career was ruined by his abortive libel case when he was convicted of perjury and perverting the course of justice. Likewise Jeffrey Archer, similarly. What do we have now? In the midst of a serious war between Ukraine and Russia with the UK pledging defence support to Ukraine, we have a Foreign Secretary and a Home Secretary breaching M15 etiquette yet telling us all that it doesn't really matter. Why is Simon Case not investigating the issues properly, instead of shrugging it all off because BoJo or Sunak told him to? How does he know it is all innocuous without an investigation and not a situation worse than Blunt and Philby in the Cold War, double agents for the Soviet Union, passing UK official secrets to to a hostile force? Nobody knows who exactly is funding ERG via the 'public funds'. Aron Banks lost his suit against a journalist Carole Cadwallr, who alleged his Vote Leave Campaign seemed to have been funded by Russia. There was a time when treason was taken seriously and not fobbed off so that BoJo can get his candidate to win the leadership race and personally censor the press to do so.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend Last edited by Vixen; 30th October 2022 at 02:33 PM.

30th October 2022, 02:44 PM	#1553
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 31,485	Compare and contrast how this naval officer was treated for sending an email message inadvertently giving away the location of her submarine compared to Truss and Braverman leaking potentially sensitive official secrets: Quote: Brook resigned this year but was formally dismissed in June and handed a four-month suspended prison sentence by a court martial for disclosing information useful to an enemy, after she sent an email which revealed the location of her submarine. She now lives in West Sussex. TIMES Time to take the security breaches in government seriously.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

30th October 2022, 02:50 PM	#1554
p0lka Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: near trees, houses and a lake. Posts: 3,024	Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King Oh look - https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ged-misconduct - another Tory politician with their nose deep in the trough. Why is this sort of lobbying and holding of other jobs still allowed? The tories do it until the public vote them out. Then as in the past, sit in opposition with media on their side sniping from the sidelines and wait until they get voted in again to cream wealth off yet again. Detestable.

30th October 2022, 03:05 PM	#1555
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 19,929	Originally Posted by p0lka The tories do it until the public vote them out. Then as in the past, sit in opposition with media on their side sniping from the sidelines and wait until they get voted in again to cream wealth off yet again. Detestable. Another seedy despicable Tory being caught engaging in serious misconduct: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...chris-matheson Detestable. Oh, wait........................