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Tags iran , Kurd , shia

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Old 18th October 2022, 08:22 AM   #41
Lukraak_Sisser
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Explaining how certain regimes came to be and how harsh sanctions just made them double down and actually gain support = supporting those regimes to some people.

If Trump and the other republican hawks had not pushed Iran this hard into the arms of the Russians they might never have supported Putin now. But we will never know.

I hope the people of Iran can overthrow the regime, but I have my doubts, the support in the rural uneducated areas is still quite strong.
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Old 18th October 2022, 08:23 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The specific thing that triggered this was women's rights as exemplified by they headscarf requirement. That requirement motived is by the religious belief. People are tearing down and burning photos of the Ayatollah, chanting "Death to the Ayatollah" and "Death to Khamemi". At an absolute minimum, that's a hard push against the Shia religious hierarchy's control of the government.

But to balance that - in many of the protests there are women who still wear the headscarves, marching right alongside the women who took theirs's off.

...snip...

So I think they are probably not all in full specific agreement on what they are marching for. Clearly less forced religious mandates, probably less or no religious control of the government, probably more free speech. But they don't seem to be marching to end Shia Islam altogether, as evidenced by many of the marching women who still choose to wear the headscarf. There appear to still be many religiously observant people marching in the protests alongside those who want freedom from all that.

..snip....
Not sure why you think they are not in full agreement - the women want choice, and that includes the choice of how to follow their religion. Don't forget apart from the death of Mahsa Amini the other oxygen to this fire was the decision announced by the president to start further restricting what women could wear.
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Old 18th October 2022, 08:32 AM   #43
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The Protestant Reformation didn't mean millions of Europeans rejected Christianity. They just rejected Catholicism and the Catholic theocracy.
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Old 18th October 2022, 08:38 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The Protestant Reformation didn't mean millions of Europeans rejected Christianity. They just rejected Catholicism and the Catholic theocracy.
Did they?

That's news to me. As far as I remember my history there were no Catholic theocracies in Europe and the absolute power of nobles did not really change.
The corruption and hypocrisy in the church were the catalysts as far as we were taught.

Which would be a good comparison to Iran at the moment.
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Old 18th October 2022, 09:47 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
I'm not completely sure I get this.

Obviously they're protesting the government and obviously the government is Islamic and I'm sure nobody disputes that. Are you saying that the protests are because the government is Islamic, and some people here deny that that is the cause?
You may have missed some of the back-story, although it was partly rehashed at the start of this thread.
The claim was made that the Iranian people would never demonstrate against their government because the government is Islamic. I strongly disputed that at the time, and continue to dispute that now.
You may also notice, at the start of this thread, that that person is trying to back away from their original claim. I dislike that kind of dishonesty.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I am not convinced of the latter. Religious people often have objections to other religions, including those that share the same name as their own or are generally similar to their own but with just a few prominent differences that they object to. How do we determine that most of the protesters wouldn't be happy with, or even prefer, a new government that's still Islamic but just not what they consider the bad kind of Islamic? How do we determine that they even admit that the government is Islamic at all instead of going with ye olde "well no true Muslim would act the way this government acts" line of thinking and wanting the government to be replaced with one that would be what they consider truly Islamic?
Again, I have addressed this earlier in the thread.
From what I know, which includes a trip to Iran and speaking with Iranians both within and outside the country, urban Iranians see no difference between their government and Islam, and many of them reject both.
Should the protests succeed, it is unclear to what extent Iran will retain an Islamic government, and also to what extent ordinary Iranians will remain believers. My personal opinion is that they will opt for a secular government, that many will reject the fundamentalist version of Shia Islam advocated by the Ayatollahs, and that a good number will reject Islam altogether. It is, of course, anybody's guess what will actually happen, especially as the mullahs are still very much in charge.
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Old 21st October 2022, 01:10 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
As far as I remember my history there were no Catholic theocracies in Europe and the absolute power of nobles did not really change.
The Vatican has been a Catholic theocracy for its entire existence.
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Old 21st October 2022, 04:46 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
The Vatican has been a Catholic theocracy for its entire existence.
So sice the early 1900s ?

But yeah, technically the papal stares were an exemption of sorts, though the maun objection of the reformation was not against religious states but rather that the Catholic church had become too secular
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Old 21st October 2022, 09:00 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
So sice the early 1900s ?

But yeah, technically the papal stares were an exemption of sorts, though the maun objection of the reformation was not against religious states but rather that the Catholic church had become too secular

You are quite right. During the Middle Ages, the papacy tried to impose religious overlordship, but was put in its place by militarily strong kings, and there has never been an effective theocracy in Europe.
Even the Papal States were ruled more like normal princely states than a theocracy.
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Old 21st October 2022, 09:18 AM   #49
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Come to think of it, the Iranian revolution bears a lot of resemblance to the Protestant movement.

A popular uprising against a perceived (or real) corrupt ruler paying lip-service to the religion, led by a staunch believer who promises to return to the 'real' religion and giving the people freedom

Only to turn the area's they rule into horrible theocracies where everyone who does not toe the line is punished.

The governments installed by Calvin, Martin Luther, the Puritans in the UK etc all have a lot in common with the Ayatollah's including the utter opposition to anything perceived degenerate.
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Old 21st October 2022, 11:01 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Only to turn the area's they rule into horrible theocracies where everyone who does not toe the line is punished.
I think I remember something about a German merchant in Denmark in the 1650’es being executed for not attending church three Sundays in a row.
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Old 14th November 2022, 09:33 AM   #51
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The Iranian parliament has passed a resolution calling for the execution of protestors.

The language isn't clear - they may mean everyone who's been arrested (about 15,000 so far) or just those convicted (one sentenced to death through the courts so far, but about 2,000 are being prosecuted right now).
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Old 14th November 2022, 04:15 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The Iranian parliament has passed a resolution calling for the execution of protestors.

The language isn't clear - they may mean everyone who's been arrested (about 15,000 so far) or just those convicted (one sentenced to death through the courts so far, but about 2,000 are being prosecuted right now).

Wow. One simply lacks words, to properly express one's complete ...I don't know, hopelessness, at these poor brave women and men.

Kind of similar to China, I guess.

The world's such a completely messed up place. If I were God, I'd send down a flood, absolutely, and no Ark either, and retire completely from the creating business.

In other words, I see no way out, at all, for these people in Iran, or in China for instance. That is, one can think up fantasy scenarios, and like Soviet Union some of these night even come true. But nothing in their power, nothing they can do, these poor hopeless brave folks.
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Old 14th November 2022, 04:20 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Wow. One simply lacks words, to properly express one's complete ...I don't know, hopelessness, at these poor brave women and men.

Kind of similar to China, I guess.

The world's such a completely messed up place. If I were God, I'd send down a flood, absolutely, and no Ark either, and retire completely from the creating business.

In other words, I see no way out, at all, for these people in Iran, or in China for instance. That is, one can think up fantasy scenarios, and like Soviet Union some of these night even come true. But nothing in their power, nothing they can do, these poor hopeless brave folks.
If I was God I'd smite the wicked instead of murdering everyone. But hey, I guess God has his reasons for being a dickhead.
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Old 14th November 2022, 07:15 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
If I was God I'd smite the wicked instead of murdering everyone. But hey, I guess God has his reasons for being a dickhead.

Fair. The one person who has no call to lose hope, even where there's no scope of such in the normal course, is God.

But I hadn't meant that, what would be the word, theodically. Just that I see no way out, at all, for these poor oppressed souls over at Iran, and China/ Hong Kong, and such.
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Old 15th November 2022, 04:29 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The Iranian parliament has passed a resolution calling for the execution of protestors.

The language isn't clear - they may mean everyone who's been arrested (about 15,000 so far) or just those convicted (one sentenced to death through the courts so far, but about 2,000 are being prosecuted right now).
And an Iran rights group is reporting over 300 hundred killed in the protests, including children.
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Old 15th November 2022, 08:08 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The Iranian parliament has passed a resolution calling for the execution of protestors.

The language isn't clear - they may mean everyone who's been arrested (about 15,000 so far) or just those convicted (one sentenced to death through the courts so far, but about 2,000 are being prosecuted right now).
Horrifying detail: In Iran they can't execute a virgin woman because she would get to go to heaven. To get around this they forcibly 'marry' the girls to a prison guard who then rapes them before they are executed.

Imagine thinking your god is all knowing, powerful, and good, with clear rules that you can loophole around a rule against murder by committing rape first.
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Old 18th November 2022, 02:08 PM   #57
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Burn, Baby, Burn!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63681472
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Old 18th November 2022, 03:29 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What's funny about this is that there is proof of the fire but authorities deny arson.

My instant thought was - so you're claiming it was an act of God? Not a good move for a religious regime.
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Old 30th November 2022, 01:39 PM   #59
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The Iranian Soccer Team afraid to return home after refusing to sing the Iranian National Anthem........US should offer them asylum.
This is not going to end anytime soon.
IMHO, the reign of the Ayatollahs cannot end soon enough.
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Old 30th November 2022, 02:05 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Iranian Soccer Team afraid to return home after refusing to sing the Iranian National Anthem........US should offer them asylum.
This is not going to end anytime soon.
IMHO, the reign of the Ayatollahs cannot end soon enough.
Do it as a sign of sportsmanship. "Hey guys, good game, wanna come back to our place for pizza, maybe spend the night?"
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Old 4th December 2022, 11:37 AM   #61
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According to the BBC, the Iranian Attorney General has said that the morality police will be disbanded. And that the law requiring women to wear the hijab `will be looked at'.

Not clear what it means, as the morality police are under the interior ministry.

The article also includes quotes from protestors basically saying even if true, this is too little too late to stop the protests.
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Old 4th December 2022, 01:30 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Meridian View Post
According to the BBC, the Iranian Attorney General has said that the morality police will be disbanded. And that the law requiring women to wear the hijab `will be looked at'.

Not clear what it means, as the morality police are under the interior ministry.

The article also includes quotes from protestors basically saying even if true, this is too little too late to stop the protests.
Way too little and far too late.
The rule of the ayatollahs is, and probably always has been, more oppresive then that of the Shah.
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Old 4th December 2022, 09:21 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Meridian View Post
According to the BBC, the Iranian Attorney General has said that the morality police will be disbanded. And that the law requiring women to wear the hijab `will be looked at'.

Not clear what it means, as the morality police are under the interior ministry.

The article also includes quotes from protestors basically saying even if true, this is too little too late to stop the protests.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Way too little and far too late.
The rule of the ayatollahs is, and probably always has been, more oppresive then that of the Shah.

Too little, too late. And all lies anyway. They'll be back once this all quietens down.

But still, not bad. Despite all odds the protests achieved this much. It's no use, this much, no use unless the whole rotten structure is overthrown. But still, although futile (so far at least); but not bad at all, to have compelled those murderous religious zealots to grant this much at least. It shows there's hope yet, faint but there, of these sacrifices maybe, just maybe, bearing fruit, showing tangible results.
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Old 4th December 2022, 10:42 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Meridian View Post
According to the BBC, the Iranian Attorney General has said that the morality police will be disbanded. And that the law requiring women to wear the hijab `will be looked at'.

Not clear what it means, as the morality police are under the interior ministry.

The article also includes quotes from protestors basically saying even if true, this is too little too late to stop the protests.
I suspect that the role of the morality police will end up being quietly folded into the remit of another organisation.
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Old 5th December 2022, 01:56 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
I suspect that the role of the morality police will end up being quietly folded into the remit of another organisation.
My thoughts exactly, a sop to the urban middle-classes to get them off the streets whilst continuing to appeal to the majority urban poor who are perfectly happy with the ayatollahs' rule.
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