[Continuation] The Russian invasion of Ukraine part 6 - Page 26

jeremyp · 27th November 2022, 04:05 AM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Ah, sorry. I assumed you are concerned about safety. If it was just time wasted, wouldn't clicking be way faster than making a post about it ?

It’s fairly inconsiderate to post link only comments. Unfortunately, behaviour won’t be changed if everybody else just sucks it up.

Jack by the hedge · 27th November 2022, 05:29 AM

I did follow the link and spent longer dismissing ads and trying to navigate down the page while panes kept jumping around than I did actually reading the text. I'd have appreciated a one-sentence summary.

I got that the FSB claimed to have raided a pro-Ukrainian terrorist cell and killed a guy but the photo evidence they posted of terrorist paraphernalia looked like merch from some online game and now a player of that game has suddenly and mysteriously become uncontactable.

jimbob · 27th November 2022, 10:09 AM

Winter is going to cause problems for Russian troops

https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/stat...UjgRhI9uo8NoXg

Even before being finishing training, there are outbreaks of infectious disease

Blue Mountain · 27th November 2022, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Ah, sorry. I assumed you are concerned about safety. If it was just time wasted, wouldn't clicking be way faster than making a post about it ?

I would appreciate it if you actually read my entire post instead of only the first sentence. I covered that point in detail later in the post.

Aridas · 28th November 2022, 01:31 AM

Russia's still openly propagandizing future goals.

Quote:

Russia's strategy for decades to come is discussed on Russian state TV. Along with the claim that the Ukrainian language does not exist, pundit predicts Russia's absorption of the neighboring countries into "one big Russian home," with eventual expansion to the Balkans & Poland.

The Don · 28th November 2022, 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Russia's still openly propagandizing future goals.

It makes sense. When successes are very thin on the ground and you've suffered a couple of humiliating reverses then claiming that it's all part of a much larger masterplan which is sure to succeed is the only way to keep the public upbeat and onside.

theprestige · 28th November 2022, 08:47 AM

UK Intelligence reports that Russia continues to bombard the civilian concentration known as Kherson.

sackett · 28th November 2022, 08:51 AM

Reuters (and probably others) is running a story about Boeing "proposing" to the US government a combo of the M26 rocket with the small diameter bomb for a relatively cheap precision weapon w/ a range out to 120-130 km. Nothing novel there, though it may be news to the scribblers. I think that "proposal" in this context means "Hey, Unca Sam we'll sell ya these rocket booms CHEAP! Like only $40K each, 'n they're old tech, so you don't spill no secrets!"

Fine by this taxpayer. Keeping a static front hot isn't the same as advancing, but it maintains a degree of initiative.

ginjawarrior · 28th November 2022, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by The Don

It makes sense. When successes are very thin on the ground and you've suffered a couple of humiliating reverses then claiming that it's all part of a much larger masterplan which is sure to succeed is the only way to keep the public upbeat and onside.

Yeah there's that side of it...

Or you can look at it as, that was always the master plan. Ukraine was just the first step.

If they'd fallen in 3 days then we'd either be neck deep in step two, or on the brink of it

But yeah Ukraini was always just the first step they just aren't pretending so much anymore

ginjawarrior · 28th November 2022, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

UK Intelligence reports that Russia continues to bombard the civilian concentration known as Kherson.

If AFU can't push them back from the left bank either cutting down from north past nova kakohka or just crossing the dinypro river then Kherson will just end up like Mariupol

Except this time the citizens can actually flee. Although not sure where hundreds of thousands are going to flee to

a_unique_person · 28th November 2022, 01:19 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...droidApp_Other

I don't know how much Wagner is paying but it's not enough. No wonder they can't recruit anymore.

dudalb · 28th November 2022, 07:07 PM

Russia Strategy with these attacks seems to be like the German bombing of London after the battle of Britian:No military use, just an attempt to break the spirit of your enemy.
I don;t think it will work; Ukraine, like London, can take it.

Lukraak_Sisser · 29th November 2022, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Russia Strategy with these attacks seems to be like the German bombing of London after the battle of Britian:No military use, just an attempt to break the spirit of your enemy.
I don;t think it will work; Ukraine, like London, can take it.

I hope so, though there is the fact that in 1940 personal heating and cooking in houses was still done by wood or coal (at least in most cases) so less dependent on a vulnerable infrastructure and the winters in the UK are far less severe than in Ukraine.

I hope NATO countries (can) come trough with their promise of support for the civilians in that area as well.

jeremyp · 30th November 2022, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Russia Strategy with these attacks seems to be like the German bombing of London after the battle of Britian:No military use, just an attempt to break the spirit of your enemy.
I don;t think it will work; Ukraine, like London, can take it.

The destruction wrought on German cities during the same war was worse by orders of magnitude. It didn't break them either.

sackett · 30th November 2022, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

The destruction wrought on German cities during the same war was worse by orders of magnitude. It didn't break them either.

What does it look like when a population is broken? Do we have any cases where that's happened?

What would a broken population do under a nazi regime?

lobosrul5 · 30th November 2022, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by sackett

What does it look like when a population is broken? Do we have any cases where that's happened?

What would a broken population do under a nazi regime?

Bomber Harris' objective was de-housing the population. No it didn't lead to large scale uprisings by the German people, or even a mass refusal to work. But it certainly had an effect on their capability to continue the war. How many missiles is Russia sending that are getting through, 10 a day maybe? Whats the sum total of that explosive power? I'd wager a tiny little fraction of the amount of tonnage that the RAF and USAF dropped on Germany in WW2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehousing

sackett · 30th November 2022, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Bomber Harris' objective was de-housing the population. No it didn't lead to large scale uprisings by the German people, or even a mass refusal to work. But it certainly had an effect on their capability to continue the war. How many missiles is Russia sending that are getting through, 10 a day maybe? Whats the sum total of that explosive power? I'd wager a tiny little fraction of the amount of tonnage that the RAF and USAF dropped on Germany in WW2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehousing

Roger. Reading you numbah one. But I'm asking if any cities' inhabitants have ever cracked under bombardment. Villages and small towns have certainly been abandoned by their populations, and I'd call that breaking. Who could blame people for running for their lives?

I sure don't wish it on Kyiv or any other Ukrainian cities.

Do I wish it on, say, St. Petersburg or Moscow? No, not them either.

Dr.Sid · 30th November 2022, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by sackett

What does it look like when a population is broken? Do we have any cases where that's happened?

What would a broken population do under a nazi regime?

Strategic bombing worked with nukes. But there were many other circumstances. The population was not broken .. but the leadership was, namely the emperor.
But Ukraine is different. They know Russians would kill many of them if they gave up anyway. So I think they won't give up even if nukes are used.

Trebuchet · 30th November 2022, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by sackett

Reuters (and probably others) is running a story about Boeing "proposing" to the US government a combo of the M26 rocket with the small diameter bomb for a relatively cheap precision weapon w/ a range out to 120-130 km. Nothing novel there, though it may be news to the scribblers. I think that "proposal" in this context means "Hey, Unca Sam we'll sell ya these rocket booms CHEAP! Like only $40K each, 'n they're old tech, so you don't spill no secrets!"

Fine by this taxpayer. Keeping a static front hot isn't the same as advancing, but it maintains a degree of initiative.

I'm sure Boeing will be able to produce a non-working prototype by the mid 2030's or so.

dudalb · 30th November 2022, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by The Don

It makes sense. When successes are very thin on the ground and you've suffered a couple of humiliating reverses then claiming that it's all part of a much larger masterplan which is sure to succeed is the only way to keep the public upbeat and onside.

Of course that those plans would cause World War 3 (attacking Nato Contries)
might dampne that a bit.

a_unique_person · 30th November 2022, 11:55 PM

These days electrical power is critical for just about everything. Knock out the power and just about everything else is gone too.

arthwollipot · 1st December 2022, 12:16 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

These days electrical power is critical for just about everything. Knock out the power and just about everything else is gone too.

There are reports that the Ukrainians are using diesel locomotives to move military supplies about.

The Don · 1st December 2022, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

There are reports that the Ukrainians are using diesel locomotives to move military supplies about.

Which is good, but signals still need power.

jimbob · 1st December 2022, 01:50 AM

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ee-2022-11-30/

Letter bombs at Ukrainian embassy in Spain and Spanish arms manufacturer making grenade launchers for Ukraine

The Don · 1st December 2022, 02:18 AM

Meanwhile the Russians continue to grind on towards Bakhmut with another village in the area, Andrivka, taken in the last 24 hours.

Viewed one way, it's a trivial gain, a small village (though in this case they've at least managed a successful river crossing) taken slowly and doubtless at great loss.

Viewed another it seems to indicate that Russia can still take ground even against well dug-in Ukrainian defenders and that the new conscripts and/or forces redeployed from Kherson are making a difference.

Captain Swoop correctly pointed out that forces which have been "hollowed out" can suddenly collapse - the successful Ukrainian counterattack in Kharkiv is an excellent example - I wonder (fear) whether this could be the case w.r.t. Ukrainian defenders on the Eastern front.

I guess time will tell.

sackett · 1st December 2022, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

I'm sure Boeing will be able to produce a non-working prototype by the mid 2030's or so.

It's in the current US Army inventory. I said old tech for a reason.

It's just a tube launched glide bomb fired from a self propelled launcher. That means it can deliver a quick ripple of silent, low-IR, guided warheads (after high-altitude separation from the rocket motor, natch) and skedaddle. Worth a try, sez Field Marshal Sackett, World's Leading Expert On Anything You Can Think About.

Mike! · 1st December 2022, 09:46 AM

Has Russia decided to go ahead and act like a terrorist state, now that they've been named one, or are these letter bombs completely unrelated?

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ts-2022-12-01/

jimbob · 1st December 2022, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by sackett

It's in the current US Army inventory. I said old tech for a reason.

It's just a tube launched glide bomb fired from a self propelled launcher. That means it can deliver a quick ripple of silent, low-IR, guided warheads (after high-altitude separation from the rocket motor, natch) and skedaddle. Worth a try, sez Field Marshal Sackett, World's Leading Expert On Anything You Can Think About.

I'm pretty sure that Trebuchet knows that, and I seem to recall him saying that he's worked for Boeing.

SpitfireIX · 1st December 2022, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Mike!

Has Russia decided to go ahead and act like a terrorist state, now that they've been named one, or are these letter bombs completely unrelated?

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ts-2022-12-01/

I doubt the Russians had anything to do with this. They have almost nothing to gain, and a lot to lose if they're discovered. My guess is it's some especially deranged Putin fanboy.

Aridas · 1st December 2022, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

I doubt the Russians had anything to do with this. They have almost nothing to gain, and a lot to lose if they're discovered. My guess is it's some especially deranged Putin fanboy.

I think Russia actually is distinctly plausible, though, especially if the point was simply performative for an intended Russian audience. With that said, personally, I'd go with simply saying that I've not seen enough information to speculate meaningfully on probability. There are a lot of possibilities and no actually firm evidence about the culprit(s) to work with that I've seen.

KDLarsen · 2nd December 2022, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

I doubt the Russians had anything to do with this. They have almost nothing to gain, and a lot to lose if they're discovered. My guess is it's some especially deranged Putin fanboy.

What, exactly, do they have left to lose?

The West is pretty much universal in its condemnation and repudiation of Putin and his terror state already, and it's not like they haven't done overseas operations before, ie. Salisbury, where they pretty much gave the West the middle finger in response to outrage.

wobs · 2nd December 2022, 03:12 AM

Lindybiege interviews brit who just returned from fighting in Ukraine. He had earlier interviewed him when he was about to first go out there. He had no previous military experience, but wasn't naive. He has led an interesting life doing all sorts, so has a variety of life skills.

You may recall the rocket attack on the base for training foreign nationals early in the war. Looks like he was there.

Anyway, its interesting as an on the ground perspective from the Ukarine side.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

SpitfireIX · 2nd December 2022, 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by KDLarsen

What, exactly, do they have left to lose?

The West is pretty much universal in its condemnation and repudiation of Putin and his terror state already, and it's not like they haven't done overseas operations before, ie. Salisbury, where they pretty much gave the West the middle finger in response to outrage.

Sending letter bombs to a NATO military base, and now a NATO embassy, are grounds for invoking Article 5. Further, Putin's entire strategy at this point is predicated on turning Western public opinion against support for Ukraine. But such pinprick attacks can only serve to stiffen Western resolve, as the Spanish have already shown with their reiteration of support.

Lukraak_Sisser · 2nd December 2022, 09:53 AM

Well, looks like Russia is ready to talk.

And all they want is to be given everything, after which they'll compromise somehow I guess.

Maybe by promising not to take more land?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63832151

The Don · 2nd December 2022, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

Well, looks like Russia is ready to talk.

And all they want is to be given everything, after which they'll compromise somehow I guess.

Maybe by promising not to take more land?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63832151

They even want land that they briefly held and have now lost. They are truly delusional.

SpitfireIX · 2nd December 2022, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by The Don

They even want land that they briefly held and have now lost. They are truly delusional.

Even worse, they want territory they've never held, such as Zaporizhzhia city.

Aridas · 2nd December 2022, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

Even worse, they want territory they've never held, such as Zaporizhzhia city.

Sadly enough, to me, that actually makes it sound like a more like a sincere offer for a temporary ceasefire, given Russia.

The Don · 2nd December 2022, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Sadly enough, to me, that actually makes it sound like a more like a sincere offer for a temporary ceasefire, given Russia.

Why would anyone give Russia an opportunity to regroup and re-equip on their terms ?

Drewbot · 2nd December 2022, 12:48 PM

The general consensus seems to be:

No talking until you leave the Ukraine.

This is a fair stance.

Russian has illegally been in Ukraine since 2014.
Russia has committed severe war crimes.

Biden is doing what Obama should have done in 2014.
Much easier to say now, knowing the deplorable condition/readiness of the Russian military.

theprestige · 2nd December 2022, 01:00 PM

Also knowing the great strides Ukraine has made in military reform and readiness since 2014.

27th November 2022, 10:09 AM	#1003
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 28,582	Winter is going to cause problems for Russian troops https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/stat...UjgRhI9uo8NoXg Even before being finishing training, there are outbreaks of infectious disease
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

27th November 2022, 06:06 PM	#1004
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 7,232	Originally Posted by Dr.Sid Ah, sorry. I assumed you are concerned about safety. If it was just time wasted, wouldn't clicking be way faster than making a post about it ? I would appreciate it if you actually read my entire post instead of only the first sentence. I covered that point in detail later in the post.
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)

28th November 2022, 01:31 AM	#1005
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 9,641	Russia's still openly propagandizing future goals. Quote: Russia's strategy for decades to come is discussed on Russian state TV. Along with the claim that the Ukrainian language does not exist, pundit predicts Russia's absorption of the neighboring countries into "one big Russian home," with eventual expansion to the Balkans & Poland.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

28th November 2022, 08:47 AM	#1007
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,132	UK Intelligence reports that Russia continues to bombard the civilian concentration known as Kherson.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

28th November 2022, 08:51 AM	#1008
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 8,186	Reuters (and probably others) is running a story about Boeing "proposing" to the US government a combo of the M26 rocket with the small diameter bomb for a relatively cheap precision weapon w/ a range out to 120-130 km. Nothing novel there, though it may be news to the scribblers. I think that "proposal" in this context means "Hey, Unca Sam we'll sell ya these rocket booms CHEAP! Like only $40K each, 'n they're old tech, so you don't spill no secrets!" Fine by this taxpayer. Keeping a static front hot isn't the same as advancing, but it maintains a degree of initiative.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

27th November 2022, 04:05 AM	#1001
jeremyp Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 2,292	Originally Posted by Dr.Sid Ah, sorry. I assumed you are concerned about safety. If it was just time wasted, wouldn't clicking be way faster than making a post about it ? It’s fairly inconsiderate to post link only comments. Unfortunately, behaviour won’t be changed if everybody else just sucks it up.

27th November 2022, 05:29 AM	#1002
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 14,121	I did follow the link and spent longer dismissing ads and trying to navigate down the page while panes kept jumping around than I did actually reading the text. I'd have appreciated a one-sentence summary. I got that the FSB claimed to have raided a pro-Ukrainian terrorist cell and killed a guy but the photo evidence they posted of terrorist paraphernalia looked like merch from some online game and now a player of that game has suddenly and mysteriously become uncontactable.

28th November 2022, 01:51 AM	#1006
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 36,011	Originally Posted by Aridas Russia's still openly propagandizing future goals. It makes sense. When successes are very thin on the ground and you've suffered a couple of humiliating reverses then claiming that it's all part of a much larger masterplan which is sure to succeed is the only way to keep the public upbeat and onside.

28th November 2022, 12:17 PM	#1009
ginjawarrior Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 311	Originally Posted by The Don It makes sense. When successes are very thin on the ground and you've suffered a couple of humiliating reverses then claiming that it's all part of a much larger masterplan which is sure to succeed is the only way to keep the public upbeat and onside. Yeah there's that side of it... Or you can look at it as, that was always the master plan. Ukraine was just the first step. If they'd fallen in 3 days then we'd either be neck deep in step two, or on the brink of it But yeah Ukraini was always just the first step they just aren't pretending so much anymore

28th November 2022, 12:25 PM	#1010
ginjawarrior Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 311	Originally Posted by theprestige UK Intelligence reports that Russia continues to bombard the civilian concentration known as Kherson. If AFU can't push them back from the left bank either cutting down from north past nova kakohka or just crossing the dinypro river then Kherson will just end up like Mariupol Except this time the citizens can actually flee. Although not sure where hundreds of thousands are going to flee to
	Last edited by ginjawarrior; 28th November 2022 at 12:26 PM.

28th November 2022, 01:19 PM	#1011
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 44,925	https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...droidApp_Other I don't know how much Wagner is paying but it's not enough. No wonder they can't recruit anymore.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

28th November 2022, 07:07 PM	#1012
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,274	Russia Strategy with these attacks seems to be like the German bombing of London after the battle of Britian:No military use, just an attempt to break the spirit of your enemy. I don;t think it will work; Ukraine, like London, can take it.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

29th November 2022, 10:39 PM	#1013
Lukraak_Sisser Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,815	Originally Posted by dudalb Russia Strategy with these attacks seems to be like the German bombing of London after the battle of Britian:No military use, just an attempt to break the spirit of your enemy. I don;t think it will work; Ukraine, like London, can take it. I hope so, though there is the fact that in 1940 personal heating and cooking in houses was still done by wood or coal (at least in most cases) so less dependent on a vulnerable infrastructure and the winters in the UK are far less severe than in Ukraine. I hope NATO countries (can) come trough with their promise of support for the civilians in that area as well.

30th November 2022, 12:31 PM	#1014
jeremyp Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 2,292	Originally Posted by dudalb Russia Strategy with these attacks seems to be like the German bombing of London after the battle of Britian:No military use, just an attempt to break the spirit of your enemy. I don;t think it will work; Ukraine, like London, can take it. The destruction wrought on German cities during the same war was worse by orders of magnitude. It didn't break them either.

30th November 2022, 01:11 PM	#1015
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 8,186	Originally Posted by jeremyp The destruction wrought on German cities during the same war was worse by orders of magnitude. It didn't break them either. What does it look like when a population is broken? Do we have any cases where that's happened? What would a broken population do under a nazi regime?
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

30th November 2022, 01:18 PM	#1016
lobosrul5 Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 4,165	Originally Posted by sackett What does it look like when a population is broken? Do we have any cases where that's happened? What would a broken population do under a nazi regime? Bomber Harris' objective was de-housing the population. No it didn't lead to large scale uprisings by the German people, or even a mass refusal to work. But it certainly had an effect on their capability to continue the war. How many missiles is Russia sending that are getting through, 10 a day maybe? Whats the sum total of that explosive power? I'd wager a tiny little fraction of the amount of tonnage that the RAF and USAF dropped on Germany in WW2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehousing
lobosrul5 Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 4,165

30th November 2022, 01:59 PM	#1017
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 8,186	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 Bomber Harris' objective was de-housing the population. No it didn't lead to large scale uprisings by the German people, or even a mass refusal to work. But it certainly had an effect on their capability to continue the war. How many missiles is Russia sending that are getting through, 10 a day maybe? Whats the sum total of that explosive power? I'd wager a tiny little fraction of the amount of tonnage that the RAF and USAF dropped on Germany in WW2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehousing Roger. Reading you numbah one. But I'm asking if any cities' inhabitants have ever cracked under bombardment. Villages and small towns have certainly been abandoned by their populations, and I'd call that breaking. Who could blame people for running for their lives? I sure don't wish it on Kyiv or any other Ukrainian cities. Do I wish it on, say, St. Petersburg or Moscow? No, not them either.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

30th November 2022, 02:04 PM	#1018
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 4,002	Originally Posted by sackett What does it look like when a population is broken? Do we have any cases where that's happened? What would a broken population do under a nazi regime? Strategic bombing worked with nukes. But there were many other circumstances. The population was not broken .. but the leadership was, namely the emperor. But Ukraine is different. They know Russians would kill many of them if they gave up anyway. So I think they won't give up even if nukes are used.

30th November 2022, 03:03 PM	#1019
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 35,685	Originally Posted by sackett Reuters (and probably others) is running a story about Boeing "proposing" to the US government a combo of the M26 rocket with the small diameter bomb for a relatively cheap precision weapon w/ a range out to 120-130 km. Nothing novel there, though it may be news to the scribblers. I think that "proposal" in this context means "Hey, Unca Sam we'll sell ya these rocket booms CHEAP! Like only $40K each, 'n they're old tech, so you don't spill no secrets!" Fine by this taxpayer. Keeping a static front hot isn't the same as advancing, but it maintains a degree of initiative. I'm sure Boeing will be able to produce a non-working prototype by the mid 2030's or so.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

30th November 2022, 03:27 PM	#1020
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,274	Originally Posted by The Don It makes sense. When successes are very thin on the ground and you've suffered a couple of humiliating reverses then claiming that it's all part of a much larger masterplan which is sure to succeed is the only way to keep the public upbeat and onside. Of course that those plans would cause World War 3 (attacking Nato Contries) might dampne that a bit.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

30th November 2022, 11:55 PM	#1021
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 44,925	These days electrical power is critical for just about everything. Knock out the power and just about everything else is gone too.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

1st December 2022, 12:16 AM	#1022
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 80,016	Originally Posted by a_unique_person These days electrical power is critical for just about everything. Knock out the power and just about everything else is gone too. There are reports that the Ukrainians are using diesel locomotives to move military supplies about.
	__________________ The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

1st December 2022, 12:46 AM	#1023
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 36,011	Originally Posted by arthwollipot There are reports that the Ukrainians are using diesel locomotives to move military supplies about. Which is good, but signals still need power.

1st December 2022, 01:50 AM	#1024
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 28,582	https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ee-2022-11-30/ Letter bombs at Ukrainian embassy in Spain and Spanish arms manufacturer making grenade launchers for Ukraine
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

1st December 2022, 02:18 AM	#1025
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 36,011	Meanwhile the Russians continue to grind on towards Bakhmut with another village in the area, Andrivka, taken in the last 24 hours. Viewed one way, it's a trivial gain, a small village (though in this case they've at least managed a successful river crossing) taken slowly and doubtless at great loss. Viewed another it seems to indicate that Russia can still take ground even against well dug-in Ukrainian defenders and that the new conscripts and/or forces redeployed from Kherson are making a difference. Captain Swoop correctly pointed out that forces which have been "hollowed out" can suddenly collapse - the successful Ukrainian counterattack in Kharkiv is an excellent example - I wonder (fear) whether this could be the case w.r.t. Ukrainian defenders on the Eastern front. I guess time will tell.

1st December 2022, 09:41 AM	#1026
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 8,186	Originally Posted by Trebuchet I'm sure Boeing will be able to produce a non-working prototype by the mid 2030's or so. It's in the current US Army inventory. I said old tech for a reason. It's just a tube launched glide bomb fired from a self propelled launcher. That means it can deliver a quick ripple of silent, low-IR, guided warheads (after high-altitude separation from the rocket motor, natch) and skedaddle. Worth a try, sez Field Marshal Sackett, World's Leading Expert On Anything You Can Think About.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

1st December 2022, 09:46 AM	#1027
Mike! Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it! Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not! Posts: 48,831	Has Russia decided to go ahead and act like a terrorist state, now that they've been named one, or are these letter bombs completely unrelated? https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ts-2022-12-01/
	__________________ "Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."

1st December 2022, 10:03 AM	#1028
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 28,582	Originally Posted by sackett It's in the current US Army inventory. I said old tech for a reason. It's just a tube launched glide bomb fired from a self propelled launcher. That means it can deliver a quick ripple of silent, low-IR, guided warheads (after high-altitude separation from the rocket motor, natch) and skedaddle. Worth a try, sez Field Marshal Sackett, World's Leading Expert On Anything You Can Think About. I'm pretty sure that Trebuchet knows that, and I seem to recall him saying that he's worked for Boeing.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

1st December 2022, 01:48 PM	#1029
SpitfireIX Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Location: Niceville, Florida, USA Posts: 5,740	Originally Posted by Mike! Has Russia decided to go ahead and act like a terrorist state, now that they've been named one, or are these letter bombs completely unrelated? https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ts-2022-12-01/ I doubt the Russians had anything to do with this. They have almost nothing to gain, and a lot to lose if they're discovered. My guess is it's some especially deranged Putin fanboy.
	__________________ "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz

1st December 2022, 10:38 PM	#1030
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 9,641	Originally Posted by SpitfireIX I doubt the Russians had anything to do with this. They have almost nothing to gain, and a lot to lose if they're discovered. My guess is it's some especially deranged Putin fanboy. I think Russia actually is distinctly plausible, though, especially if the point was simply performative for an intended Russian audience. With that said, personally, I'd go with simply saying that I've not seen enough information to speculate meaningfully on probability. There are a lot of possibilities and no actually firm evidence about the culprit(s) to work with that I've seen.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 1st December 2022 at 10:40 PM.

2nd December 2022, 12:44 AM	#1031
KDLarsen Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4,823	Originally Posted by SpitfireIX I doubt the Russians had anything to do with this. They have almost nothing to gain, and a lot to lose if they're discovered. My guess is it's some especially deranged Putin fanboy. What, exactly, do they have left to lose? The West is pretty much universal in its condemnation and repudiation of Putin and his terror state already, and it's not like they haven't done overseas operations before, ie. Salisbury, where they pretty much gave the West the middle finger in response to outrage.
KDLarsen Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4,823

2nd December 2022, 05:37 AM	#1033
SpitfireIX Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Location: Niceville, Florida, USA Posts: 5,740	Originally Posted by KDLarsen What, exactly, do they have left to lose? The West is pretty much universal in its condemnation and repudiation of Putin and his terror state already, and it's not like they haven't done overseas operations before, ie. Salisbury, where they pretty much gave the West the middle finger in response to outrage. Sending letter bombs to a NATO military base, and now a NATO embassy, are grounds for invoking Article 5. Further, Putin's entire strategy at this point is predicated on turning Western public opinion against support for Ukraine. But such pinprick attacks can only serve to stiffen Western resolve, as the Spanish have already shown with their reiteration of support.
	__________________ "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz

2nd December 2022, 09:53 AM	#1034
Lukraak_Sisser Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,815	Well, looks like Russia is ready to talk. And all they want is to be given everything, after which they'll compromise somehow I guess. Maybe by promising not to take more land? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63832151

2nd December 2022, 12:02 PM	#1035
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 36,011	Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser Well, looks like Russia is ready to talk. And all they want is to be given everything, after which they'll compromise somehow I guess. Maybe by promising not to take more land? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63832151 They even want land that they briefly held and have now lost. They are truly delusional.

2nd December 2022, 12:08 PM	#1036
SpitfireIX Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Location: Niceville, Florida, USA Posts: 5,740	Originally Posted by The Don They even want land that they briefly held and have now lost. They are truly delusional. Even worse, they want territory they've never held, such as Zaporizhzhia city.
	__________________ "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz