Split Thread: Eliminate hate and injustice?

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by arayder

There is a lot of interesting theology on just that subject. If you read the Bible you can see God seeming to sort out his relationship to us. One might ask how it is that an all knowing God had to send a son to us so he could know us better?

Originally Posted by arayder

<clip trap>
that brings us to a mention of the benefits of personal and mental health counseling.
I urge you to find a qualified professional.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by arayder

So what happen between you and that Sunday school teacher?

It sure made you angry.

Thank you so much... really... thanks!!!


For showing what real christians are like with that statement...

But here is the question... where was Jesus while your sunday school teacher was doing that???

Why did he not save all those children you seem to know jolly well what happens to them???

Did he enjoy the show or was he just not able to do anything about it???

Originally Posted by arayder

Leumas, I am very sorry about your hate problem. Whether you like it or not people have the right to worship as they please and use religion to seek peace in their lives.

Yup... unfortunately Jesus did not give people that right and you condoned and agreed with him...

Do you know what hypocrisy is???

Originally Posted by arayder

The Gospels are packed full of stories about the Pharisees who were known for their hypocrisy and perjury.

The Pharisees are the archetype for the sort of modern day hypocritical Christians who are so often lambasted here.

It's worth noting that the anger that Jesus expressed towards the Pharisees was because they had corrupted the law of God with their rules and hence were leading the people astray. In effect they were idolizing the law instead of worshipping God.

My take is that Jesus didn't hate them. He was angry with them for what they were doing.

As you notice from above ... you and Jesus are the ones who have a problem with hating the ones who do not agree with the way you want them to worship "god".

Originally Posted by arayder

I am very sorry about your hate problem

But you do not think that Jesus had a hate problem??? I suggest you read the words of Jesus below to see how much vitriol he had...

• Matthew 10:34-39 Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
• Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.
• Luke 19:27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.
• John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. ...
• Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
• John 3:18 ...but He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
• Matthew 21-24 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! ... Bethsaida! ...Tyre... Capernaum... shalt be brought down to hell.... I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
• Matthew 27:25 All the people answered, His blood is on us and on our children!

Originally Posted by arayder

But that brings us to a mention of the benefits of personal and mental health counseling.
I urge you to find a qualified professional.

Yes indeed... Jesus could have done with a lot of it....

Originally Posted by Thomas Paine

• The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum.
• What is it the Bible teaches us? - raping, cruelty, and murder. What is it the New Testament teaches us? - to believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married, and the belief of this debauchery is called faith.

Originally Posted by James Madison

Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.

Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.

Originally Posted by John Adams

Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years?

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by arayder

One of the criticisms of Christian religion is that there is an often constant focus (sometimes soul destroying) on the sinful nature of men and women. The other side of that coin is that folks can use the religion and qualified counselors in their churches to deal with their hate and rage.

Yes... that is why christians have been massacring each other and others who are not christian for millennia... because they are so loving and peaceful and have successfully dealt with their hate problems...

Just look at what they are doing now in 2022 with all that peace and loving and freedom they are spewing all about them.

[arayder]

Thanks, mods. I was going to suggest that we move this discussion to the Religion and Philosophy thread.

[arayder]

Originally Posted by Leumas

Yes... that is why christians have been massacring each other and others who are not christian for millennia... because they are so loving and peaceful and have successfully dealt with their hate problems...

Just look at what they are doing now in 2022 with all that peace and loving and freedom they are spewing all about them.

Leumas, you seen to have missed the irony in you getting all hateful in a thread about eliminating hate.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by arayder

Leumas, you seen to have missed the irony in you getting all hateful in a thread about eliminating hate.

1. You missed the irony of proselytizing for your version of a religion that
   • has been spreading hate for millennia and mayhem and destruction
   • has its god saying he is a racist and hate spreading sword bringing HUMAN SACRIFICE
   • is currently spreading hate and propping up fascism
   as a concrete thing we can do to counter hate
2. it is not hate to say the truth and point out the facts about your religion

Ah... and I forgot to mention the hate of Jesus towards the Jews which you advocated with your OP.... not to mention for other christians you do not agree with.

Originally Posted by arayder

The Gospels are packed full of stories about the Pharisees who were known for their hypocrisy and perjury.

The Pharisees are the archetype for the sort of modern day hypocritical Christians who are so often lambasted here.

It's worth noting that the anger that Jesus expressed towards the Pharisees was because they had corrupted the law of God with their rules and hence were leading the people astray. In effect they were idolizing the law instead of worshipping God.

My take is that Jesus didn't hate them. He was angry with them for what they were doing.
...

[MarkCorrigan]

So no comment on the intolerance and hate in the NT that I posted then Arayder?

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

So no comment on the intolerance and hate in the NT that I posted then Arayder?

He will tell you (like he told to me) that they are out of context...

Despite never having read them of course... let alone explaining what context would mitigate the vitriol and hate and the insanity of Jesus going around maligning and execrating everyone who does not fall for his cult of human sacrifice and threatening them with eternal torture in his father's dungeons.

[Thermal]

While we are at it, let's dismiss all the thoughts on freedom and equality put forth by America's founding fathers. Slave owners, not allowing women the right to vote...we should not acknowledge any context there either, right?

You know, the Brits have a pretty sordid history if we want to go back millennia. I guess we should condemn them today, too? Oh, they changed, you say? Yeah, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Christian or Jew stoning unmarried people having sex. YMMV.

[MarkCorrigan]

Ah, but Arayder said that the issues of religious hatred come from people interpreting the text. I'm simply pointing out that the text itself is hateful.

That there are a great many good, noble Christians. Indeed I know some. I'm related to some.

I'm not claiming that Christians are uniformly evil and will be stoning people in the street, I'm just pointing out that you can't claim the texts are pure and the hate comes solely from people misinterpreting or twisting them.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Ah, but Arayder said that the issues of religious hatred come from people interpreting the text. I'm simply pointing out that the text itself is hateful.

That there are a great many good, noble Christians. Indeed I know some. I'm related to some.

I'm not claiming that Christians are uniformly evil and will be stoning people in the street, I'm just pointing out that you can't claim the texts are pure and the hate comes solely from people misinterpreting or twisting them.

Indeed.... and none of the founding fathers claimed to be the ill begotten son of a celestial slave mongering ethnic cleansing human sacrifice demanding voodoo rituals prescribing witches proscribing hexed potions commanding war crimes committing misogynistic misanthropic racist bigoted deadbeat sky daddy.

Originally Posted by Steven Weinberg

Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Ah, but Arayder said that the issues of religious hatred come from people interpreting the text. I'm simply pointing out that the text itself is hateful.

That there are a great many good, noble Christians. Indeed I know some. I'm related to some.

I'm not claiming that Christians are uniformly evil and will be stoning people in the street, I'm just pointing out that you can't claim the texts are pure and the hate comes solely from people misinterpreting or twisting them.

I get that, and agree. In a lot of these discussions, Christians are portrayed by citing their worst actors across millennia. The ones I find in meatspace are a mixed bag, but overwhelmingly nice people who tend to be far closer to the Idealized Christian type.

[arayder]

Leumas and Mark,

Sorry for not getting back to you on this thread. It got moved and I kind of lost it.

Anyway thank you for proving my point that human society will very willing subvert God's commands that we love one another and treat each other as we would want to be treated.

In posting the oft revised and frankly misunderstood Bible verses, which are the product of human society and often corrupt churches you have well proved my point for me.

Thank you both and God bless you.

[Chanakya]

Originally Posted by arayder

There is a lot of interesting theology on just that subject. If you read the Bible you can see God seeming to sort out his relationship to us. One might ask how it is that an all knowing God had to send a son to us so he could know us better?



That's one way to think about.



One of the criticisms of Christian religion is that there is an often constant focus (sometimes soul destroying) on the sinful nature of men and women. The other side of that coin is that folks can use the religion and qualified counselors in their churches to deal with their hate and rage.



I hope that works for you and brings you peace.

Ah, but if it works for me and brings me peace; and if instead of following my specific example you went and sought and found your peace in Christianity instead; and if we lived next door to each other: then, even though if you cherry picked you'd find some good in my (hypothetical) Islamic screed, and ditto your Christian faith as well, but no doubt we'd come across fundamental differences in our worldviews. That would no doubt be cause for conflict. (I'm not saying conflict would necessarily follow, obviosly. But if peace were maintained between the hypothetical Muslim me and the --- hypothetically? actually? whatever --- Christian you, then that would be in spite of our faith, and in spite of the differences in them, rather than because of it.)

Rather than following faiths that have a great deal of good peaceable messages as well as a great deal of hateful messages --- so that one can cherry pick either way, depending --- and then focusing on the cherry picked good things, and further hoping that others of our faith will do the same, except in reality they often don't, doesn't it make sense to throw over these faiths altogether? Especially given that these are utterly nonsensical anyway, and while people in olden times may have found reason to believe, but it is irrational for any sane educated person in this day and age to believe this nonsense, whether your Christian variety, or my (hypothetical) Muslim variety?

Peace is a difficult enough ideal in any case. Why unnecessarily make it twenty times more difficult by charting a path not straight to it but via a completely unecessary and ludicrously tortuous labyrinth of make-believe?

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by arayder

Leumas and Mark,

Sorry for not getting back to you on this thread. It got moved and I kind of lost it.

Anyway thank you for proving my point that human society will very willing subvert God's commands that we love one another and treat each other as we would want to be treated.

In posting the oft revised and frankly misunderstood Bible verses, which are the product of human society and often corrupt churches you have well proved my point for me.

Thank you both and God bless you.

That's a cop out.

There is no way to "understand" the verses that isn't perverse.

What about the bit where Elisha is mocked for being bald by some children so god has bears tear 42 children apart?

Explain to me how any of those verses can be looked at as anything other than the directives of a psychopathic manchild. Don't just claim people are misunderstanding them, provide any context at all in which the commandment to murder homosexuals is not abhorrent.

[arayder]

Originally Posted by Chanakya

Ah, but if it works for me and brings me peace; and if instead of following my specific example you went and sought and found your peace in Christianity instead; and if we lived next door to each other: then, even though if you cherry picked you'd find some good in my (hypothetical) Islamic screed, and ditto your Christian faith as well, but no doubt we'd come across fundamental differences in our worldviews. That would no doubt be cause for conflict. (I'm not saying conflict would necessarily follow, obviosly. But if peace were maintained between the hypothetical Muslim me and the --- hypothetically? actually? whatever --- Christian you, then that would be in spite of our faith, and in spite of the differences in them, rather than because of it.)

Rather than following faiths that have a great deal of good peaceable messages as well as a great deal of hateful messages --- so that one can cherry pick either way, depending --- and then focusing on the cherry picked good things, and further hoping that others of our faith will do the same, except in reality they often don't, doesn't it make sense to throw over these faiths altogether? Especially given that these are utterly nonsensical anyway, and while people in olden times may have found reason to believe, but it is irrational for any sane educated person in this day and age to believe this nonsense, whether your Christian variety, or my (hypothetical) Muslim variety?

Peace is a difficult enough ideal in any case. Why unnecessarily make it twenty times more difficult by charting a path not straight to it but via a completely unecessary and ludicrously tortuous labyrinth of make-believe?

So the next time I am stuck in a foxhole I pray to whom?

[arayder]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

That's a cop out.

There is no way to "understand" the verses that isn't perverse.

What about the bit where Elisha is mocked for being bald by some children so god has bears tear 42 children apart?

Explain to me how any of those verses can be looked at as anything other than the directives of a psychopathic manchild. Don't just claim people are misunderstanding them, provide any context at all in which the commandment to murder homosexuals is not abhorrent.

So if the Bible is God's word flawlessly recounted and divinely inspired then your position that God is a "psychopathic manchild"?

A simple yes or no will do, friend.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by Thermal

I get that, and agree. In a lot of these discussions, Christians are portrayed by citing their worst actors across millennia. The ones I find in meatspace are a mixed bag, but overwhelmingly nice people who tend to be far closer to the Idealized Christian type.

What is that? Please describe it?

And when in history have we ever had anything like it?

And where??

How many have you met so far?

And with your description a scientific research can have a way to tally up the score of how many are there likely to be world wide and not just by anecdotal gut feelings.

And then science can study if it is christianity that indeed makes them what they are... or is it DESPITE their christianity???

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by arayder

So what happen between you and that Sunday school teacher?

It sure made you angry.

Originally Posted by arayder

So the next time I am stuck in a foxhole I pray to whom?

Not Jesus.... What good will this deadbeat son of a deadbeat sky daddy do for you if he does not even help the boys in your sunday school against the sunday school teacher... as you described above???

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by arayder

So if the Bible is God's word flawlessly recounted and divinely inspired....

Is that an assertion or a hypothetical?

Do you believe that the Bible is God's word flawlessly recounted and divinely inspired??

A simple yes or no will do??

[Chanakya]

Originally Posted by arayder

So the next time I am stuck in a foxhole I pray to whom?

No one?



Although easier said than done, I realize, if one's been brought up theist, and has that ingranined, and if the foxhole's really serious business. It would be heartless to laugh at the theist who finds solace from prayer in truly trying times. I might suggest, purely in practical terms, a halfway house where one might pray to the God one has been brought up on in times of dire need, while recognizing this more as a psychological ploy to boost oneself rather than of any direct actual use. Perhaps one could simply pray within, to some nebulous power within, or to the universe at large, again recognizing this to be a psychological thing rather than any actual use. And doing this withutout getting mired in any other paraphernalia, any other nonsense, other than the prayer itself. And in any case, outside of the foxhole, which would be most times for most people, recognizing the world as the sane everyday magic-free place it is.

Of course, if even despite a theistic upbringing one has the courage and fortitude to take one's rationality along with one into the foxhole, then that's best obviously. But if in truly dire times someone brought up theist regressed temporarily, I for one wouldn't judge. (Not that I personally have any business judging anyone else in any case, whether inside a foxhole or out.)



eta: But if some unholy hypocrite set up shop and went on to fill their freeloading belly by pandering shamelessly to this poor soul driven to desperate prayer in the foxhole, then absolutely I'd judge (for what my essentially passive/non-smiting/peacable judgment might be worth).

[arayder]

Leumas, like I said before you need to work on your hate problem.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Leumas

What is that? Please describe it?

The usual. Selfless people who give to the poor and the sick, love their neighbor, all the usual ideals.

Quote:

And when in history have we ever had anything like it?

And where??

How many have you met so far?

As I said, a mixed bag. Those who dedicate themselves to it (pastors, priests, nuns) tend to be waaaaaay over on the left side of the spectrum.

Quote:

And with your description a scientific research can have a way to tally up the score of how many are there likely to be world wide and not just by anecdotal gut feelings.

And then science can study if it is christianity that indeed makes them what they are... or is it DESPITE their christianity???

Science can do whatever turns it on. My point is that you and others seem to have gotten a rotten impression of Christians from...somewhere. I doubt seriously it is from interaction with live ones, and seems to rely wholly on criticizing the books that they are not that big on to start with.

What do I mean by that? That the Christians I come in contact with (probably more than average) are across the board nicer people than the ones who say they aren't. But fo sho, the hateful and malicious things you get off on saying about them indicate that you have not interacted with many, or at least had the profound misfortune of dealing with some really nasty ones.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by arayder

So if the Bible is God's word flawlessly recounted and divinely inspired then your position that God is a "psychopathic manchild"?

A simple yes or no will do, friend.

Yes.

[arayder]

Originally Posted by Chanakya

No one?



Although easier said than done, I realize, if one's been brought up theist, and has that ingranined, and if the foxhole's really serious business. It would be heartless to laugh at the theist who finds solace from prayer in truly trying times. I might suggest, purely in practical terms, a halfway house where one might pray to the God one has been brought up on in times of dire need, while recognizing this more as a psychological ploy to boost oneself rather than of any direct actual use. Perhaps one could simply pray within, to some nebulous power within, or to the universe at large, again recognizing this to be a psychological thing rather than any actual use. And doing this withutout getting mired in any other paraphernalia, any other nonsense, other than the prayer itself. And in any case, outside of the foxhole, which would be most times for most people, recognizing the world as the sane everyday magic-free place it is.

Of course, if even despite a theistic upbringing one has the courage and fortitude to take one's rationality along with one into the foxhole, then that's best obviously. But if in truly dire times someone brought up theist regressed temporarily, I for one wouldn't judge. (Not that I personally have any business judging anyone else in any case, whether inside a foxhole or out.)



eta: But if some unholy hypocrite set up shop and went on to fill their freeloading belly by pandering shamelessly to this poor soul driven to desperate prayer in the foxhole, then absolutely I'd judge (for what my essentially passive/non-smiting/peacable judgment might be worth).

An interesting post.

For me the "Come to Jesus" moment is not in a foxhole but when I am tempted to break the Golden Rule.

A rule which, by the way, is expressed one way or another in every religion.

That fact brings me to the question of whether such a rule (a dang good one, btw) is God touching the hearts of everyone, or just a production of human evolution which tends towards empathy.

Your thoughts?

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by arayder

An interesting post.

For me the "Come to Jesus" moment is not in a foxhole but when I am tempted to break the Golden Rule.

A rule which, by the way, is expressed one way or another in every religion.

That fact brings me to the question of whether such a rule (a dang good one, btw) is God touching the hearts of everyone, or just a production of human evolution which tends towards empathy.

Your thoughts?

Human invention.

There's no evidence that god is even real, or that he cares about us or even notices us even if there is a god of some kind.

[arayder]

Originally Posted by arayder

So if the Bible is God's word flawlessly recounted and divinely inspired then your position that God is a "psychopathic manchild"?

A simple yes or no will do, friend.

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Yes.

Which is why I tend to think the Bible has been worked over pretty good and bastardized by successive generations. Often for the purpose of advancing something which naturally empathetic individuals would more easily reject were it put forward outside church.

The most heinous example which comes to mind is the attempts by the Nazis to make Christianity over into some kind of Nazi justifying faith.

That wasn't God's doing. That crap is all on the Nazis.

I don't believe that God is a Nazi. I don't believe God is crazy.

Your opinion may differ.

[MarkCorrigan]

Do you think the Bible is the word of god?

[Chanakya]

Originally Posted by arayder

An interesting post.

For me the "Come to Jesus" moment is not in a foxhole but when I am tempted to break the Golden Rule.

A rule which, by the way, is expressed one way or another in every religion.

That fact brings me to the question of whether such a rule (a dang good one, btw) is God touching the hearts of everyone, or just a production of human evolution which tends towards empathy.

Your thoughts?

I'd say empathy. The essential decency that is within most people.

I don't see why you'd need to come or go to Jesus, or the Prophet Mohammed, or any other, in order to follow the Golden Rule as best you can. Most good decent people --- most people, in fact --- don't wish their fellow man ill, and would in general help them if they could, within reason. At least that has been my experience, in my (anecdotal) observation of myself as well as of others, by and large.

Why complicate this simple impulse --- provided you are able to recognize it as such --- by bringing Jesus into it?

(In any case, why Jesus specifically, why not Mohammed? Not to forget that whoever you choose to drag in won't come naked, won't come only to inspire you to uphold the Golden Rule, but will necessarily come accompanied with parephernalia, paraphernalia that will necessarily clash in some respects with a different set of paraphernalia, and so bring forth an entirely unnecessary and entirely avoidable potential for conflict.)

[MarkCorrigan]

Why would I believe in god when there's no evidence for him?

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by arayder

The Gospels are packed full of stories about the Pharisees who were known for their hypocrisy and perjury.

The Pharisees are the archetype for the sort of modern day hypocritical Christians who are so often lambasted here.

It's worth noting that the anger that Jesus expressed towards the Pharisees was because they had corrupted the law of God with their rules and hence were leading the people astray. In effect they were idolizing the law instead of worshipping God.

My take is that Jesus didn't hate them. He was angry with them for what they were doing.

In this way Christianity, practiced as it should be, is not hate, but is the answer to hate.

Oh, my! Is this leading us to a concrete thing we can do to counter hate?

Originally Posted by arayder

Anyway thank you for proving my point that human society will very willing subvert God's commands that we love one another and treat each other as we would want to be treated.

No... your point was that Jesus going around excoriating, maligning and threatening Jews because he thinks they are not following his interpretation of God's command... is perfectly justified and is a concrete way to follow in order to counter hate.

So by hating those who do not agree with Jesus we eliminate hate and injustice... that was your point.

Originally Posted by arayder

Anyway thank you for proving my point that human society will very willing subvert God's commands that we love one another and treat each other as we would want to be treated.

How do you know what is God's command??? Where did you read it or hear it??

Was it in the ... as you assert .... flawed and utterly unreliable book filled with

Originally Posted by arayder

...the oft revised and frankly misunderstood Bible verses, which are the product of human society and often corrupt churches.

How do you know what is what or that it is god's command at all???
Have you read the original or have you heard it from god or what???

Originally Posted by arayder

In this way Christianity, practiced as it should be, is not hate, but is the answer to hate.

Oh, my! Is this leading us to a concrete thing we can do to counter hate?

And if indeed it is as you say corrupted and the product of humans repeatedly vitiating an original that you cannot produce... then how on Earth are you going to know how to "apply it as it should be" if you have no idea what it should be since it is all corrupted already???

How do you know that the verses that you reject and refuse to admit are part of this god's commands are not in fact god's command and your wishful thinking ones are the corruption???

And if god is an almighty all loving one.... why does he allow his word to be corrupted in the first place??? Why does he not smite those who attempted to corrupt before they accomplished their attempt??? And why does he not issue a second edition or at least and Errata so as to set the record right???

Originally Posted by arayder

So what happen between you and that Sunday school teacher?

It sure made you angry.

And on top of not bothering to preserve his command for you to ascertain what it is correctly... he does not even lift a finger to succor the sunday school teachers' victims you seem to know all about... why all this dereliction of duty and the absentee sky daddy act???



Further more.... how do you know this is true

Originally Posted by arayder

The Gospels are packed full of stories about the Pharisees who were known for their hypocrisy and perjury.

Who told you that?? Where did you read it?? Was it in the

Originally Posted by arayder

...the oft revised and frankly misunderstood Bible verses, which are the product of human society and often corrupt churches.

How do you know it is true then???



.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Why would I believe in god when there's no evidence for him?

[Christian Advocate mode] Because you feel Him, and His grace. It's not going to stand up to a barrage of measuring instruments, but subjective experience is plenty for a lot of folks to run with. [/Christian Advocate mode]

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Thermal

[Christian Advocate mode] Because you feel Him, and His grace. It's not going to stand up to a barrage of measuring instruments, but subjective experience is plenty for a lot of folks to run with. [/Christian Advocate mode]

Which of course falls apart when you ask why you should believe in the Christian god but not say, Allah when there are about a billion muslims with the same story.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by arayder

Leumas, like I said before you need to work on your hate problem.

No ... you need to work on your love for a hate monger cad called Jesus.

And as I told you ... telling the truth about your dastardly cult leader... is not being hateful... the truth hurts ... but it is not hateful.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Which of course falls apart when you ask why you should believe in the Christian god but not say, Allah when there are about a billion muslims with the same story.

Cassius Clay and Cat Stevens, yo. At a guess, I'd say that whatever god-like thingy was around when you saw your subjective burning bush would be your deity du jour. If you were hanging around a Shinto shrine, maybe you go that way. Surely we all know people who went all Buddhist, having none in their upbringing?

But for many, I'd say it's just a compartmentalized feeling: "my spirituality is about, um...*looks around*...the church I grew up with".

eta: I doubt religious faith is something that you coolly pick by scientific reasoning. You are born into it, or convert based on otherwise inexplicable (to the convert) feelings of connection with a god.

[arayder]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Human invention.

There's no evidence that god is even real, or that he cares about us or even notices us even if there is a god of some kind.

So how do we explain the 1969 Mets?

More seriously I'll tell you my personal story.

Thirteen years ago I got killer case of double pneumonia that wrecked my lugs. For a year and a half afterward I couldn't mow the lawn, run or even pick up heavy stuff without gasping for breath. For a life long athlete it was hell.

The doctors couldn't do jack for me.

One Sunday I sitting in church with some friends who'd invited me. I wasn't a regular church goer at the time. I was one of those folks who called himself "spiritual".

So I am sitting there and the Episcopal priest starts talking about how God hears our prayers.

I'm thinking, "That's cool" and right then my chest starts to burn. Really burn! I figure I am having a heart attack and I might as well go in church where they can just drag up front, say a few words, and be done with it.

Then I figure I gotta' at least breathe one more time so I suck in some air and let out a breath. The breath let out had a huge flume of white dust in it. I remember it shot over the shoulder of the lady in the pew in front of me and I though, "I hope that dust doesn't land on her."

It turned out I was breathing out whatever sick crap was in my lungs.

My lungs were right as rain and have been ever since.

I was not cured by the Bible or any iteration of it.

I was not cured by the Pope.

I was cured by the Episcopal Church in which I was sitting.

I believe I was cured by God who answered a prayer I didn't even say.

I believe. I believe there is something Devine going on. I know I don't understand it. But I believe.

It's called faith.

I recommend it.

[MarkCorrigan]

It's called spontaneous remission. It's good that you recovered, but there is no reason to attribute it to a god of any kind, and it's nowhere near evidence for a god.

I could just as easily say you were cured by gnomes. Does that make your story evidence for gnomes now? Why not?

[arayder]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

It's called spontaneous remission. It's good that you recovered, but there is no reason to attribute it to a god of any kind, and it's nowhere near evidence for a god.

I could just as easily say you were cured by gnomes. Does that make your story evidence for gnomes now? Why not?

Okay, now explain the 1969 Mets.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by arayder

Okay, now explain the 1969 Mets.

Ba-dum tsch.

Seriously though, that's really not evidence at all.

[arayder]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Ba-dum tsch.

Seriously though, that's really not evidence at all.

I agree. That's why they call it faith.