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Old 25th November 2022, 10:58 AM   #201
Leumas
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I got a theory. It's probably something I heard and later pull out of the old memory banks. So I and sure if we google it we can find it without my name on it.

The idea is that God's relationship with us and maybe even God him/herself grows.

Hence the Old Testament is all fire and brimstone but then God wises up and builds a new covenant with us that includes his son, who is not allowed to touch the smite button on God's computer.

People like the new arrangement and the religion grows.

God wonders why he didn't think of this before the big flood and all that.


Evidently he has not matured much after all these thousands of years either... because he still pulls pranks on poor unsuspecting souls.

Originally Posted by Rephrasing of Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
YHWH & Jesus are immature juvenile delinquent gods with nothing to do. They cruise around looking for planets full of benighted gullible people and buzz them.

Buzz them?

Yeah, they buzz them. They find some random sick person with a disease that can be easily cured by the immune system, then cure the unsuspecting soul whom no one’s ever going to believe and then strut up and down in front of them wearing silly halos on their heads and making beep beep noises.
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Old 27th November 2022, 11:17 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
A miracle story in my family, ... My grandfather had cancer. ...then his cancer went into remission and he became cured... Was it his deep catholic faith and his god ... The religious in the family say it was god and faith. A belief.

I simply don't know....

So as an atheist you have no idea if GOD cures people or not... huh??

Ok... as an atheist... do you know if the deep catholic/anglican faith of the christians described below, was the cause of their malfeasances and grotesque evil???

And why did this so called god not stave off or abate their sordid vile base wickedness in his name... did he enjoy the voyeurism on his representatives ravaging humanity???

And this is not some ancient atrocities by long ago christians... this is within the living memory of people still alive today.

Don't you think that this is yet another example of what happens when christians are given free rein to wreak their GODLY WORK???

Don't you think that the fruits of christianity bear a testimonial to it being a rotten sordid tree... a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit... and by their fruits you will know them.

Originally Posted by Michael Paul Nelson & Kathleen Dean Moore
...
Ms Hill added her story to innumerable accounts of kidnapping, torture, and sexual and physical abuse in the residential schools. Children died of starvation, infectious disease, fire and, when they tried to escape, exposure. One of three possible punishments awaited children who spoke their Native tongues, Ms Hill told the Toronto Star — a beating with a leather strap, a needle through their tongues, or a kerosene-soaked rag in their mouths.
...
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Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 27th November 2022 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 30th November 2022, 07:18 AM   #203
MarkCorrigan
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I got a theory. It's probably something I heard and later pull out of the old memory banks. So I and sure if we google it we can find it without my name on it.

The idea is that God's relationship with us and maybe even God him/herself grows.

Hence the Old Testament is all fire and brimstone but then God wises up and builds a new covenant with us that includes his son, who is not allowed to touch the smite button on God's computer.

People like the new arrangement and the religion grows.

God wonders why he didn't think of this before the big flood and all that.
Even if we assume that to be true and ignore the OT what about the stuff in the NT that's also hateful and bigoted?
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Old 30th November 2022, 09:00 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
You are talking about things of which you know nothing, friend.

The Episcopal Church is not evangelical and we Episcopalians don't proselytize.

Neither have I a said a word about Christianity being superior to other faiths. We Episcopalians are "allowed" to ask question and we value other churches and other religions.

I a truly sorry your "Pentecostal experience" was so bad. But that mud doesn't stick on me.
Really now?

I've got an organisation that would strongly disagree.

The Episcopal Church, from their own website.

They even have a toolkit:
Quote:
Every baptized Episcopalian has vowed to proclaim with our words and our lives the loving, liberating, and life-giving good news of Jesus Christ. Through the spiritual practice of evangelism, we seek, name and celebrate Jesus’ loving presence in the stories of all people – then invite everyone to more. The Evangelism Toolkit helps us to live into that call.
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Old 30th November 2022, 11:47 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Really now?

I've got an organisation that would strongly disagree.

The Episcopal Church, from their own website.

They even have a toolkit:


Wow.... well done!!!... Good catch!!!
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Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
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Old 30th November 2022, 07:57 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
You are talking about things of which you know nothing, friend.

The Episcopal Church is not evangelical and we Episcopalians don't proselytize.

Neither have I a said a word about Christianity being superior to other faiths. We Episcopalians are "allowed" to ask question and we value other churches and other religions.

I a truly sorry your "Pentecostal experience" was so bad. But that mud doesn't stick on me.
Like I said, the fact that you don't think you're doing it doesn't mean that you're not doing it.
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Old 30th November 2022, 08:46 PM   #207
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Crickets, where one might expect soundly argued rebuttal, else sincere admission of error?

How naive, right? To expect the latter, when the former seems ruled out?

Good job, Mark Corrigan, on getting to that completely unassailable evidence.


----------


The religious who might want to learn about how to do the cricket with a superhuman repression of shame, might want to treat this specimen here as the kindergarten version, and head across next door to The Supernatural threads (two so far) for a more consummate expression of the same principle.
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Old 3rd December 2022, 02:49 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Really now?

I've got an organisation that would strongly disagree.

The Episcopal Church, from their own website.

They even have a toolkit:
Mark, my friend, that you had to do a word search through the Episcopal church's website to find the word "evangelical" says a lot about the depth of your argument.

My apologizes for not being more clear, gentlemen.

Many of us know what an "evangelical church" is in common parlance. An "typical" evangelical christian would not have openly expressed doubt about Bible passages as I have here. ..and my church has no problem with me doing so. A "typical" evangelical christian would have used this thread to implore you all accept Jesus as your savior. I have not done so and my church would not expect me to do so. An evangelical christian would have told you all that only christians go to heaven. I don't believe that and my church is okay with me saying that. Furthermore, a typical evangelical christian would have long ago told you all (maybe in a not so nice way) that you are all going to hell because you haven't "accepted Jesus". I have not done so, I don't believe so and my church is okay with me saying so.

Of course a couple of you may be Yankee fans, in which case all bets are off.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Like I said, the fact that you don't think you're doing it doesn't mean that you're not doing it.
And the fact that you say I am "doing it" doesn't mean I am.

Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Crickets, where one might expect soundly argued rebuttal, else sincere admission of error?
Here 's the oldest rule in forum debating: Don't assume that just because the other guy doesn't respond right away you have "won the day".

Last edited by arayder; 3rd December 2022 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 3rd December 2022, 05:08 PM   #209
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I didn't have to do that. I googled "is the Episcopal church evangelical". That was the first result.

There is a difference between being an Evangelical Church in the sense of the Evangelical tradition (which the Episcopal church absolutely has member churches that are, by the way) and being an Evangelical church in that it evangelises to the hoi poli. You were attempting to claim the later and only now are switching horses to the former. That's exceptionally dishonest.
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When I give food to the poor, they call me a Saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist. - Hélder Câmara
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Old 3rd December 2022, 05:24 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I didn't have to do that. I googled "is the Episcopal church evangelical". That was the first result.

There is a difference between being an Evangelical Church in the sense of the Evangelical tradition (which the Episcopal church absolutely has member churches that are, by the way) and being an Evangelical church in that it evangelises to the hoi poli. You were attempting to claim the later and only now are switching horses to the former. That's exceptionally dishonest.
Excuse me, friend, but you don't know what you re talking about.

Everyone in the various Christian churches knows what an "evangelical" is and they don't have to do a google trick to make a sow's ear into silk purse.

No offense, pard.
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Old 3rd December 2022, 05:52 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Excuse me, friend, but you don't know what you re talking about.

Everyone in the various Christian churches knows what an "evangelical" is and they don't have to do a google trick to make a sow's ear into silk purse.

No offense, pard.
You claimed that your church doesn't evangelise. That was the original claim.


Originally Posted by arayder View Post
You are talking about things of which you know nothing, friend.

The Episcopal Church is not evangelical and we Episcopalians don't proselytize.

Neither have I a said a word about Christianity being superior to other faiths. We Episcopalians are "allowed" to ask question and we value other churches and other religions.

I a truly sorry your "Pentecostal experience" was so bad. But that mud doesn't stick on me.
I pointed out that yes, they do, and now you're changing horses to state that the Episcopals are not in the Evangelist tradition.

Also, sorry to burst your bubble here but Evangelical tradition Episcopals do exist.
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When I give food to the poor, they call me a Saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist. - Hélder Câmara
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Old 3rd December 2022, 05:55 PM   #212
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No, I have made it clear that we are not "evangelicals" in the common understanding of the term.

Pentecostals are.

You a can google all you want, but it won't change the real world.

Last edited by arayder; 3rd December 2022 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 3rd December 2022, 05:59 PM   #213
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Except that you have outright changed horses as I pointed out in your quotes. You claimed that you do not proselytize and are not evangelicals. Both of those statements are contradicted by the Episcopal church website in the case of the former, and the The Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches website in the later. Unless you're going to attempt to claim No True Scotsman on them, the fact they exist means that yes, at least some of the Episcopal church are evangelicals.
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Old 3rd December 2022, 06:36 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Mark, my friend, that you had to do a word search through the Episcopal church's website to find the word "evangelical" says a lot about the depth of your argument.

My apologizes for not being more clear, gentlemen.

Many of us know what an "evangelical church" is in common parlance. An "typical" evangelical christian would not have openly expressed doubt about Bible passages as I have here. ..and my church has no problem with me doing so. A "typical" evangelical christian would have used this thread to implore you all accept Jesus as your savior. I have not done so and my church would not expect me to do so. An evangelical christian would have told you all that only christians go to heaven. I don't believe that and my church is okay with me saying that. Furthermore, a typical evangelical christian would have long ago told you all (maybe in a not so nice way) that you are all going to hell because you haven't "accepted Jesus". I have not done so, I don't believe so and my church is okay with me saying so.

Of course a couple of you may be Yankee fans, in which case all bets are off.



And the fact that you say I am "doing it" doesn't mean I am.



Here 's the oldest rule in forum debating: Don't assume that just because the other guy doesn't respond right away you have "won the day".


I haven't done that, arayder. First, not my debate. I'm just the looker-on, as far as that issue. Second, I'd only commented on your not engaging, and the other thing, which are plain as day. Now no less than then.

As far as that other thing: it's a pattern, if only you'd see it.

You protested that I was mischaracterizing you when I said, basis your posts, that your belief is based on feelings and not reason. When I then clearly demonstrated it, you neither showed otherwise, nor acknowledged it, but tried to somehow handwave it away. I did not then make an issue of it, or even mention it.

Same thing now, except more conspicuous. Your claim has clearly, unassailably, beyond a shadow of a doubt, been shown to be wrong, and indeed a large part of your worldview ---- that your church doesn't proselytize--- and here you go, trying to weasel your way out desperately once more, rather admitting your error squarely and gracefully.

The cognitive dissonance at work, don't you like SEE it? ...But of course you don't, that's the nature of the beast. ...Like I said, for a demonstration of the same phenomenon at work on a more exaggerated scale, the exact same thing except for the details of the belief system, head over next doors. That's a more ...picturesque demonstration, for cultural reasons. But it's the exact same thing.

See if you can recognize yourself there. And, who knows, maybe catch yourself, just maybe head back to sanity and rationality, even now?
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Old 3rd December 2022, 07:36 PM   #215
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I get asked why I believe and when I answer I get accused of proselytizing.

When I respond by saying my church does not behave like a typical evangelical church (something anyone with a lick of church sense already knows) I get treated to a google search word play game and some "you lose" chortling.

Enjoy the thread, boys. I am gone.
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Old 4th December 2022, 07:24 AM   #216
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Oh stop pouting, you explicitly stated that your church does not proselytise. Those were the exact words you used.
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Old 4th December 2022, 06:39 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
No, I have made it clear that we are not "evangelicals" in the common understanding of the term.

Pentecostals are.
They certainly are, but it doesn't follow that all evangelicals are Pentecostal.
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