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Old 11th January 2019, 07:52 AM   #81
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Careful now. I'm not made of stone.
I'm wearing a flannel shirt today, and I haven't shaved! Soooooo manly, I could be on a package of paper towels! Although I did just have a long conversation about the new She-Ra cartoon. I went in thinking meh, I'm only watching to see if He-Man shows up. Two days later I'd seen all the episodes and written a fanfic centered around a Glimmer/Bow/Kyle love triangle. And am I crazy or did Shadow Weaver and Hordak have a vibe going on?
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Old 11th January 2019, 08:01 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'm wearing a flannel shirt today, and I haven't shaved! Soooooo manly, I could be on a package of paper towels! Although I did just have a long conversation about the new She-Ra cartoon. I went in thinking meh, I'm only watching to see if He-Man shows up. Two days later I'd seen all the episodes and written a fanfic centered around a Glimmer/Bow/Kyle love triangle. And am I crazy or did Shadow Weaver and Hordak have a vibe going on?
Well that just turned me right off.
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Old 11th January 2019, 12:11 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
As a manly masculine male man I type on phones by pecking with one finger. A manly finger, muscular and firm.
Lol
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 11th January 2019, 01:00 PM   #84
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The Oxford definition is good, as is wiki's, which is:

Quote:
Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex (i.e., the state of being male, female, or an intersex variation), sex-based social structures (i.e., gender roles), or gender identity
I kind of operate on the assumption that if you don't experience any dysphoria ("the condition of feeling one's emotional and psychological identity as male or female to be opposite to one's biological sex."), your gender aligns with your sex.
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Old 11th January 2019, 01:13 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I kind of operate on the assumption that if you don't experience any dysphoria ("the condition of feeling one's emotional and psychological identity as male or female to be opposite to one's biological sex."), your gender aligns with your sex.
Sounds good to me as well.
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Old 11th January 2019, 01:46 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The Oxford definition is good, as is wiki's, which is:



I kind of operate on the assumption that if you don't experience any dysphoria ("the condition of feeling one's emotional and psychological identity as male or female to be opposite to one's biological sex."), your gender aligns with your sex.
I'd say, "your perception of your gender aligns with your sex."

Your idea of masculinity aligns with construct of masculinity that you've been socialized to associate with your penis, for example. Of course, people's gender expression can be all over the map, without descending into dysphoria. Tomboys, effeminate men... etc. I think that gender dysphoria can be best understood as a deep and debilitating expression of social alienation.

There is an idea of what it means to have a vagina, and I need that idea to describe me, even though I have a penis instead.

Whatever that idea is. For some people, part of getting to that idea means literally replacing their penis with a vagina. But the goal is not the vagina. The goal is the sense of belonging to a particular social construct that is associated with having a vagina. Which is to say that gender dysphoria isn't really about gender-sex mismatch at all, but about profound feelings of alienation, tied to the person's perception of sex and gender.

Last edited by theprestige; 11th January 2019 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 11th January 2019, 05:12 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'd say, "your perception of your gender aligns with your sex."

Your idea of masculinity aligns with construct of masculinity that you've been socialized to associate with your penis, for example. Of course, people's gender expression can be all over the map, without descending into dysphoria. Tomboys, effeminate men... etc. I think that gender dysphoria can be best understood as a deep and debilitating expression of social alienation.

There is an idea of what it means to have a vagina, and I need that idea to describe me, even though I have a penis instead.

Whatever that idea is. For some people, part of getting to that idea means literally replacing their penis with a vagina. But the goal is not the vagina. The goal is the sense of belonging to a particular social construct that is associated with having a vagina. Which is to say that gender dysphoria isn't really about gender-sex mismatch at all, but about profound feelings of alienation, tied to the person's perception of sex and gender.
Yes, I have been thinking more or less along these lines too.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:06 PM   #88
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Ergo if people cared less about fitting into categories or labels, they would be more contented with themselves?
That's how I see gender anyway, people shouldn't fixate on it, be yourself. You're you.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:09 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Ergo if people cared less about fitting into categories or labels, they would be more contented with themselves?
That's how I see gender anyway, people shouldn't fixate on it, be yourself. You're you.
Ergo some people have a severe psychological dysfunction that manifests as crippling alienation from social constructs of gender, and which can be treated to some extent by aligning their sex or sexual expression with a gender different from their birth sex.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:20 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ergo some people have a severe psychological dysfunction that manifests as crippling alienation from social constructs of gender, and which can be treated to some extent by aligning their sex or sexual expression with a gender different from their birth sex.
Care less about social constructs of gender, then the crippling alienation wouldn't be a thing... and the urge to align as a solution wouldn't be a thing either.
EDIT:
Treat the cause, not the symptoms.

Last edited by p0lka; 11th January 2019 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:22 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Care less about social constructs of gender, then the crippling alienation wouldn't be a thing... and the urge to align as a solution wouldn't be a thing either.
Not if everyone else treats you a certain way you don't want to be treated. You can be perfectly at peace with yourself but everybody else can disagree with your findings and create a less than optimal situation for you.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:29 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Not if everyone else treats you a certain way you don't want to be treated. You can be perfectly at peace with yourself but everybody else can disagree with your findings and create a less than optimal situation for you.
then it's not you that is the problem, it's society. Why get hung up on thinking you have to 'fit in', when you aren't the problem.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:47 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'm wearing a flannel shirt today, and I haven't shaved! Soooooo manly, I could be on a package of paper towels! Although I did just have a long conversation about the new She-Ra cartoon. I went in thinking meh, I'm only watching to see if He-Man shows up. Two days later I'd seen all the episodes and written a fanfic centered around a Glimmer/Bow/Kyle love triangle. And am I crazy or did Shadow Weaver and Hordak have a vibe going on?
Your Grinder profiles are getting weirder...
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:13 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Not if everyone else treats you a certain way you don't want to be treated. You can be perfectly at peace with yourself but everybody else can disagree with your findings and create a less than optimal situation for you.
Unfortunately no one is the center of the universe, and society is not suddenly going to adjust to meet your personal needs, so a bit of fitting in might be required as well as a bit less judgmentalising from the other side
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 11th January 2019, 08:16 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Unfortunately no one is the center of the universe, and society is not suddenly going to adjust to meet your personal needs, so a bit of fitting in might be required as well as a bit less judgmentalising from the other side
Yes, it's only right to try to fit in with the sort of person who says "we don't take kindly to yer type around these parts". Definitely fine people on both sides!
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Old 11th January 2019, 08:29 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yes, it's only right to try to fit in with the sort of person who says "we don't take kindly to yer type around these parts". Definitely fine people on both sides!
I know a few trans people and none of them have told me they have been confronted with "we don't take kindly to yer type around these parts"

Awkward moments with people (normally innocently) ignorant of dealing with trans people yes. Openly malicious no.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 11th January 2019, 08:35 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I know a few trans people and none of them have told me they have been confronted with "we don't take kindly to yer type around these parts"

Awkward moments with people (normally innocently) ignorant of dealing with trans people yes. Openly malicious no.
What a wonderful anecdote! Let's file it right between the gay rapper murdered in Puerto Rico and that kid whose school principal tried to break into the bathroom stall.
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Old 11th January 2019, 08:38 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What a wonderful anecdote! Let's file it right between the gay rapper murdered in Puerto Rico and that kid whose school principal tried to break into the bathroom stall.
Or you could post some examples of trans people being beaten etc, because they are trans.

Hint

The dude pretending to be a trans chick in the games shop doesn't cut it
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 11th January 2019, 09:03 PM   #99
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It means whatever you want it to mean
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Old 11th January 2019, 09:07 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Or you could post some examples of trans people being beaten etc, because they are trans.
Unsure if serious....

https://en.unesco.org/news/report-sh...global-problem
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Old 11th January 2019, 09:19 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It was my badly worded way of saying anecdotes come from all sides as arguments
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 12th January 2019, 08:28 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Try this. Make yourself a list of non-biological traits that you would associate more with girls and women (i.e feminine traits), and then a list of traits that you would associate more with boys and men (i.e. masculine).

That will give you a very rough template of psychological, social, and cultural norms.

If you want to get an idea where you fall, score yourself on those traits and see where you fall on the spectrum.
By that definition gender has no more meaning than "hip" or "cool" as it is constantly changing, changing by local, religion, belief and time.

Thus definition makes the term useless. Think of it this way.

If the colors red and black were changed based on decade, location, etc. Would it be useful to tell someone " cut the red wire".

This definition will just cause pepe to stop using the term gender as it becomes nebulous to the point of uselessness.
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Old 12th January 2019, 08:32 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Try to start out by looking at generalisations in your society:

Are women more likely to like shopping for clothes while men shop for tools?
Are men more likely to socialise in the pub with alcohol while women socialise in the cafe with a cup of tea/coffee?
Are men more likely to play contact sports and women non-contact?
Are men more likely to insist that they can navigate without directions?
Are boys more likely to play with trucks and girls with dolls?
Are boys more likely to wear shirt and trousers while a girl wears a dress or skirt?

This isn't to say that all men fit in the "Ideal Masculine" Box and all women fit the "Ideal Feminine" Box, and not all people that do slide all the way over to the other box see themselves of that gender, but you are wanting to start somewhere, so these things are a great place to start from.

It just gets way more complex as you go deeper, and often the real answer is, after all of that, just that a person's gender is what they feel it is on a sub-conscious level. The traits we would measure that by are quite likely to be an expression of what it is that they feel that they are, rather than having some measurable and quantifiable biological reason for being.
If it's totally subjective that makes a definition useless.

It's like saying "the answer to 2+2 is the number you put after the equals sign" is a correct definition just not a useful one.
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Old 12th January 2019, 08:36 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Not if everyone else treats you a certain way you don't want to be treated. You can be perfectly at peace with yourself but everybody else can disagree with your findings and create a less than optimal situation for you.
You can control your feelings, you cannot control the feelings of others. That leaves one solution.

If you would prefer to tilt at windmills in pursuit of this perfect solution that changes every ******* on earth into a nice person, go ahead but it isn't helping. It's only encouraging victim mentality and retarding the progress of equality.
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Old 12th January 2019, 08:38 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yes, it's only right to try to fit in with the sort of person who says "we don't take kindly to yer type around these parts". Definitely fine people on both sides!
Then why care what they think?

"I hate these people so much they must like me" doesn't make any sense to me.
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Old 12th January 2019, 08:39 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What a wonderful anecdote! Let's file it right between the gay rapper murdered in Puerto Rico and that kid whose school principal tried to break into the bathroom stall.
Bad things happen to everyone. I could find a long list of murdered straight reapers if you would like.

" bad things happened to me" is a fact of life not a free pass.
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Old 12th January 2019, 09:03 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Then it's possible that you may indeed be genderfluid or gender nonbinary. That's great! You've learned something about yourself.
Wow! You should be a psychiatrist!
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Old 12th January 2019, 09:26 AM   #108
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Yeah, not being able to understand complicates things badly.

A baseline guess can be made on the plumbing below and how one chose to dress themselves.

If the plumbing is nonstandard then choose from the spectrum theory options.

I just use the plumbing criteria. Clearly male. Then dress and act accordingly. It's not hard for me.
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Old 12th January 2019, 10:36 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
You can control your feelings, you cannot control the feelings of others. That leaves one solution.

If you would prefer to tilt at windmills in pursuit of this perfect solution that changes every ******* on earth into a nice person, go ahead but it isn't helping. It's only encouraging victim mentality and retarding the progress of equality.
Who says I'm "pursuing a perfect solution" to anything? I'm just suggesting that it sucks when people hate you for stupid reasons. Is that a controversial statement?
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Old 12th January 2019, 10:38 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Bad things happen to everyone. I could find a long list of murdered straight reapers if you would like.

" bad things happened to me" is a fact of life not a free pass.
Who says anybody's looking for a "free pass"? To what? People should be treated decently, is all I'm saying. You disagree? It's a "free pass" to something to treat people equitably? Someone saying "I don't think I should be beaten up for being trans" is unreasonable of them?
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Old 12th January 2019, 10:40 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Who says I'm "pursuing a perfect solution" to anything? I'm just suggesting that it sucks when people hate you for stupid reasons. Is that a controversial statement?
JUST CUZ UR FEELING ARE HURT DUDNT MEAN OTHER PEOPLE HAVE TO CHANGE.



Something like that.
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Old 12th January 2019, 10:59 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Who says I'm "pursuing a perfect solution" to anything? I'm just suggesting that it sucks when people hate you for stupid reasons. Is that a controversial statement?
If it's not controversial, why say it? What's the point of posting stuff that everyone already knows and nobody disputes? Is it really that important to you, to make sure we all know that you think the same way as everyone else? Does such a post have any real meaning, beyond "look at me! I belong to your tribe"?
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Old 12th January 2019, 11:16 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If it's not controversial, why say it? What's the point of posting stuff that everyone already knows and nobody disputes? Is it really that important to you, to make sure we all know that you think the same way as everyone else? Does such a post have any real meaning, beyond "look at me! I belong to your tribe"?
Do you recall what we're actually talking about here? TM was agreeing with your point about how the nature of transgenderism involves "crippling alienation from social constructs of gender, and which can be treated to some extent by aligning their sex or sexual expression with a gender different from their birth sex".
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Old 12th January 2019, 11:57 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Do you recall what we're actually talking about here? TM was agreeing with your point about how the nature of transgenderism involves "crippling alienation from social constructs of gender, and which can be treated to some extent by aligning their sex or sexual expression with a gender different from their birth sex".
To which i replied
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Care less about social constructs of gender, then the crippling alienation wouldn't be a thing... and the urge to align as a solution wouldn't be a thing either.
EDIT:
Treat the cause, not the symptoms.
then theprestige and Tragicmonkey start arguing with each other, haha.

Last edited by p0lka; 12th January 2019 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:13 PM   #115
kellyb
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
To which i replied

then theprestige and Tragicmonkey start arguing with each other, haha.
Technically, TM countered your point about "Care less about social constructs of gender, then the crippling alienation wouldn't be a thing" with noting that the social constructs of gender involve how everyone else treats you. It's not a matter of you and your ideas of such things existing in total isolation. It's very difficult to just not care about how people are treating you.
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:36 PM   #116
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I think it's a category error to say a person has a gender, whether that supposed gender is innate or self-selected.

Consider the original linguistic meaning of gender. (This is not an argument that that meaning must be the only true meaning. It's just a useful analogy.) Nouns in some languages are gendered. That doesn't mean a bridge or a chair has a gender. It means the word "bridge" or "chair" has a gender in such a language. The noun gender is a human-assigned characteristic of the word.

Two things to note: one, that the gender assignment of the word can tend to rub off onto the thing itself, as a common, usually benign form of category error. Similarly, pre-existing associations of things with human gender will influence the gender assignments in the language. So, for instance, both the word "moon" and the moon itself are considered in many languages and cultures to be gendered the same.

Two, "human-assigned" does not necessarily mean planned or designed. Many human-created systems, including languages, evolve organically.

If people don't have gender, then what is all the fuss about? (And why is it near universally assumed that they do?) People have actual and preferred behaviors and roles in social interactions, and many of those things, that is behaviors and roles, do have gender.

Some of those gender associations are, like the gendered "meanings" of the colors pink and blue, are arbitrary and assigned by tradition. Others are historical, statistical, or metaphorical associations with the physical hardware of the male or female sex. Many consumer products are gendered by packaging or other advertising. The moon is gendered as it is because the periodicity of its phases matches that of the human menstrual cycle. Baking as an activity was gendered primarily one way (in the U.S.) during the era of small-town trade professionals ("the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker") and became gendered primarily opposite that for a while in the era of suburban homemaking. Clothing choices are gendered. Roles in family management are gendered. Roles in many social interactions such as forms of address are gendered.

Thinking of gender as something that a person has, rather than something their roles and behaviors have, leads to all kinds of impasses. For example, the well-known conflict between equality feminists who want to remove the gender associations with certain roles and behaviors, while trans woman activists who want to emphasize many of those those roles and behaviors by participating and engaging in them. "Queer" and "genderfluid" can be reasonably (though not fully) defined as preferring to participate in different gender roles at different times and/or in different aspects of life. This all seems wildly inconsistent if gender is something the person has, but makes sense when gender is understood as something the person's social roles and behaviors have. "Identifying as" a gender is simply shorthand for a person predominantly preferring roles and behaviors of that gender in a broad array of areas of life, from (perhaps) using preferentially gendered products to (perhaps) participating as the preferentially gendered spouse in a marriage.

But the phrase "identifies as" (rather than e.g. "identifies with") a gender verges into the category error of holding that a person, rather than their roles and behaviors, "has" a gender. It's an easy unavoidable mistake, but it's at the root of all the "gender is undefinable!" (e.g. "the claimed gender of a trans person has no basis in reality") arguments.

Before the OP can chime in with "I asked for a definition, not a long-winded essay," here's how the above might boil down into a definition:

Gender is a characteristic of a human social role or behavior, which associates said role or behavior to some degree with one of two poles of a binary distinction based directly or indirectly on biological sex.
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Old 12th January 2019, 01:17 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
then theprestige and Tragicmonkey start arguing with each other, haha.
It's not an argument if one person can't see what the other one says. :-)
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Old 12th January 2019, 02:25 PM   #118
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I think it's a category error to say a person has a gender, whether that supposed gender is innate or self-selected.

Consider the original linguistic meaning of gender. (This is not an argument that that meaning must be the only true meaning. It's just a useful analogy.) Nouns in some languages are gendered. That doesn't mean a bridge or a chair has a gender. It means the word "bridge" or "chair" has a gender in such a language. The noun gender is a human-assigned characteristic of the word.

Two things to note: one, that the gender assignment of the word can tend to rub off onto the thing itself, as a common, usually benign form of category error. Similarly, pre-existing associations of things with human gender will influence the gender assignments in the language. So, for instance, both the word "moon" and the moon itself are considered in many languages and cultures to be gendered the same.

Two, "human-assigned" does not necessarily mean planned or designed. Many human-created systems, including languages, evolve organically.

If people don't have gender, then what is all the fuss about? (And why is it near universally assumed that they do?) People have actual and preferred behaviors and roles in social interactions, and many of those things, that is behaviors and roles, do have gender.

Some of those gender associations are, like the gendered "meanings" of the colors pink and blue, are arbitrary and assigned by tradition. Others are historical, statistical, or metaphorical associations with the physical hardware of the male or female sex. Many consumer products are gendered by packaging or other advertising. The moon is gendered as it is because the periodicity of its phases matches that of the human menstrual cycle. Baking as an activity was gendered primarily one way (in the U.S.) during the era of small-town trade professionals ("the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker") and became gendered primarily opposite that for a while in the era of suburban homemaking. Clothing choices are gendered. Roles in family management are gendered. Roles in many social interactions such as forms of address are gendered.

Thinking of gender as something that a person has, rather than something their roles and behaviors have, leads to all kinds of impasses. For example, the well-known conflict between equality feminists who want to remove the gender associations with certain roles and behaviors, while trans woman activists who want to emphasize many of those those roles and behaviors by participating and engaging in them. "Queer" and "genderfluid" can be reasonably (though not fully) defined as preferring to participate in different gender roles at different times and/or in different aspects of life. This all seems wildly inconsistent if gender is something the person has, but makes sense when gender is understood as something the person's social roles and behaviors have. "Identifying as" a gender is simply shorthand for a person predominantly preferring roles and behaviors of that gender in a broad array of areas of life, from (perhaps) using preferentially gendered products to (perhaps) participating as the preferentially gendered spouse in a marriage.

But the phrase "identifies as" (rather than e.g. "identifies with") a gender verges into the category error of holding that a person, rather than their roles and behaviors, "has" a gender. It's an easy unavoidable mistake, but it's at the root of all the "gender is undefinable!" (e.g. "the claimed gender of a trans person has no basis in reality") arguments.

Before the OP can chime in with "I asked for a definition, not a long-winded essay," here's how the above might boil down into a definition:

Gender is a characteristic of a human social role or behavior, which associates said role or behavior to some degree with one of two poles of a binary distinction based directly or indirectly on biological sex.
Mmm

Either that or it is just dudes and chicks and a tiny % of dudes who think they should have been chicks, and a tinier % chicks who think they should have been dudes.

And then a miniscule % of dudes and chicks who say it depends what day it is
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Old 12th January 2019, 02:48 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Some of those gender associations are, like the gendered "meanings" of the colors pink and blue, are arbitrary and assigned by tradition. Others are historical, statistical, or metaphorical associations with the physical hardware of the male or female sex.
At least a tiny bit of the gendered stuff is hardwired in the brain, too, to produce those behaviors (as well as the mentality that produces the behaviors.)

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organi...nal_Hypothesis
Quote:
The Organizational-Activational Hypothesis states that steroid hormones permanently organize the nervous system during early development, which is reflected in adult male or female typical behaviors.[1] In adulthood, the same steroid hormones activate, modulate, and inhibit these behaviors. [2] This idea was revolutionary when first published in 1959 because no other previous experiment had demonstrated that adult behaviors could be determined hormonally during early development. [3]


Quote:
But the phrase "identifies as" (rather than e.g. "identifies with") a gender verges into the category error of holding that a person, rather than their roles and behaviors, "has" a gender. It's an easy unavoidable mistake, but it's at the root of all the "gender is undefinable!" (e.g. "the claimed gender of a trans person has no basis in reality") arguments.
I think people in part also mean "identifies as a member of the group, men/women".

Quote:
Gender is a characteristic of a human social role or behavior, which associates said role or behavior to some degree with one of two poles of a binary distinction based directly or indirectly on biological sex.
Not a bad definition.
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Old 12th January 2019, 04:10 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
And none of that answers the question - what does "gender" mean?
With electronic connectors and many other things there are two genders - one male and one female. One is built to fit inside the other.

There are things called "gender benders" which will allow a female component to couple with another female component. Same goes with male components.

This has been true for a very long time and it works well. Any more than that is just complicating matters unnecessarily.

Does this help?
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