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Tags Australia elections , Australia politics , Julie Bishop , Malcolm Turnbull , Peter Dutton , Scott Morrison

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Old 7th January 2019, 02:32 PM   #561
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Rahaf al-Qunun’s situation is a bit rough. Maybe one of Dutton or Coleman’s well-to-do mates need an au pair?
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Old 7th January 2019, 03:13 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Here's one...

I didn't check to see if the words "significant percentage" were in there.

https://www.news.com.au/finance/work...5d8500c84311bd

Apologies about the source.

Thanks novaphile.

Quote:
“There is a significant percentage of the Coalition members who do not believe that climate change is real, who believe that we should get out of Paris (agreement).”
I think the source I quoted originally was the ABC.
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Old 7th January 2019, 03:27 PM   #563
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I think "significant number" is close enough, which IS in the article.


What Turnbull says sounds reasonable. If you want more about climate change and how fossil fuels make us ‘safe from’ climate change, read
https://www.theguardian.com/australi...-party-members

Warning: You may lose a few IQ points by reading this.

Wow! This ex furniture sales man Craig Kelly is giving us the benefit of his scientific knowledge about climate change. CO2 is nothing to worry about folks because:

“It’s CO2 we are talking about: it’s what turns water into soda water, its what makes chardonnay into champagne,”

There you go ...... CO2 is good stuff so there.
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Old 8th January 2019, 04:53 PM   #564
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And now we have Pauline Hanson saying stuff without engaging the brain.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-...s-say/10701228


Wants Scomo to pay folk for collecting cane toads .... yep that's a good idea only it won't work as has been show. Can't expect Pauline to read stuff though I suppose.
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Old 8th January 2019, 05:55 PM   #565
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Yeah, I'm going to start a cane toad farm. None of the buggers are likely to escape or anything.
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Old 8th January 2019, 07:07 PM   #566
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I have been convinced the Liberals were on the way out until I read the comments on a post by Scott Morrison (ScoMo) onFacebook. The comments are highly racist. Scott Morrison (ScoMo) post read in full
Quote:
I thank Vic police for their efforts dealing with the ugly racial protests we saw in St Kilda yesterday. Intolerance does not make Australia stronger.

Let’s never forget, Australia is the most successful migrant country in the world today. This has been achieved by showing respect for each other, our laws and values and maintaining sensible immigration policies with strong borders and ensuring infrastructure and services keep pace with our population.

Let’s keep it that way, it makes Australia stronger. That’s my plan.
https://www.facebook.com/scottmorris...305?__tn__=H-R

I should warn anyone reading the comments in the link that some of them are racist like

Quote:
Matthew McNamara. You were doing so well until you came out with this crap ScoMo. Aussies are fed up and have had enough. Look at the comments here if you want some validation. You’ve picked the wrong side to support on this one.
I think that comment wins the award for being a good summary of the comments.

If a substantial % of Australians are racist and they all vote Liberal then maybe the Liberals will win the coming Federal election?? YUK!
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Old 8th January 2019, 07:12 PM   #567
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Yeah, that would suck.
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Old 8th January 2019, 09:50 PM   #568
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There's a reason why John Howard played to Pauline Hanson's supporters you know...
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Old 8th January 2019, 10:24 PM   #569
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
There's a reason why John Howard played to Pauline Hanson's supporters you know...
And he won an election he should have lost by saying "children were thrown overboard by the parents" when he should have known (not to mention most voters) this was not true. At least that was the last election he won. Then he, the PM, lost his seat at the next election.
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Old 9th January 2019, 12:13 AM   #570
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
And he won an election he should have lost by saying "children were thrown overboard by the parents" when he should have known (not to mention most voters) this was not true. At least that was the last election he won. Then he, the PM, lost his seat at the next election.
That had nothing to do with the children overboard saga and everything to do with "work choices".

John Howard ran such a lack-lustre campaign that I wonder if his real objective was to prevent Peter Costello from becoming PM. He was certainly aware that it was time for him to go and losing the election would have killed two birds with one stone.
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Old 9th January 2019, 12:26 AM   #571
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That had nothing to do with the children overboard saga and everything to do with "work choices".

John Howard ran such a lack-lustre campaign that I wonder if his real objective was to prevent Peter Costello from becoming PM. He was certainly aware that it was time for him to go and losing the election would have killed two birds with one stone.
I agree with you here. And to lose in a landslide to such a poor candidate as Rudd took some talent. This election was the only time in my life that I didn’t vote Labor.
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Old 9th January 2019, 03:04 PM   #572
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
And he won an election he should have lost by saying "children were thrown overboard by the parents" when he should have known (not to mention most voters) this was not true. At least that was the last election he won. Then he, the PM, lost his seat at the next election.

The John Howard PM thing is something I could never understand. When he was originally toppled as Liberal leader I thought "yes well the figures", because to me he was such a lack lustre figure. Then like the phoenix he rose from the ashes and went on to become the second longest serving PM in our country.

How he managed to weather that "children overboard" stuff confounds me. He was riding on the back of the fear of huge convoys of refugee boats, flooding our shores so perhaps folk let him off.
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Old 9th January 2019, 03:44 PM   #573
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
How he managed to weather that "children overboard" stuff confounds me. He was riding on the back of the fear of huge convoys of refugee boats, flooding our shores so perhaps folk let him off.
Foreshadowing the boat refugee situation in the Med today, did it not?
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Old 10th January 2019, 03:54 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Foreshadowing the boat refugee situation in the Med today, did it not?
Not sure what you're saying here Norman. Are you suggesting the stop the boats strategy was justified because we avoided the situation the Europeans got into? However one feels about this comes down to a moral issue. Given it has been established that 90% of the boat people are/were genuine refugees, (as compared to a much smaller percentage coming in by Qantas), we have to ask ourselves - "what is our moral obligation regarding them?"

I tend to think it's our moral duty to give them asylum regardless of the inconvenience and perhaps loss of privilege to ourselves. You?
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Old 10th January 2019, 05:39 PM   #575
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Not sure what you're saying here Norman.
Only that our boat people situation came before the Med boat people situation. And our approach, at least Howard's approach, was to lie about them in order to throw them back. Remember "kids overboard"?

Quote:
Are you suggesting the stop the boats strategy was justified because we avoided the situation the Europeans got into?
Certainly not! Our current solution is the opposite of "justified". I'm ashamed of it, frankly. We can, and should, do a lot better.

Quote:
However one feels about this comes down to a moral issue. Given it has been established that 90% of the boat people are/were genuine refugees, (as compared to a much smaller percentage coming in by Qantas), we have to ask ourselves - "what is our moral obligation regarding them?"
I suspect we get a lot more asylum-seekers via QANTAS than by the boats. Most will be visa-overstayers. A Sri Lankan family was in the news recently for just that. But yes, we have some sort of moral obligation to at least look after them properly until their cases are determined. The Pacific Solution is a tragedy for everyone.

Quote:
I tend to think it's our moral duty to give them asylum regardless of the inconvenience and perhaps loss of privilege to ourselves. You?
I have no problem with genuine refugees staying. We took in millions after WW2. The Snowy Mountains Scheme was built by migrants who were, for all intents and purposes, economic refugees. We already absorb a much larger number of planned migrants through conventional means. A few more who throw themselves on our front mat are not going to hurt.

This does not mean I believe we should accept all and sundry - open borders. There are certainly some who don't qualify for stay, and some sort of quotas. In which case those not qualified should be deported, humanely. But perhaps we should ask around our regional neighbours first, rather than casting them straight back into their previous maelstroms.
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Old 10th January 2019, 11:08 PM   #576
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Thanks for that Norman. I misunderstood your post.
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Old 11th January 2019, 01:19 AM   #577
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I tend to think it's our moral duty to give them asylum regardless of the inconvenience and perhaps loss of privilege to ourselves. You?
How many do we grant asylum to? Do we knock any back? What do we do with the asylum seekers in the mean time? Do we allow them to live where they want? Get jobs or social security? Do we lock them up?

I presume that you are aware that the Rudd government's more "compassionate" approach saw all the asylum centres filled to bursting point.
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Old 11th January 2019, 02:00 PM   #578
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
How many do we grant asylum to? Do we knock any back? What do we do with the asylum seekers in the mean time? Do we allow them to live where they want? Get jobs or social security? Do we lock them up?

I presume that you are aware that the Rudd government's more "compassionate" approach saw all the asylum centres filled to bursting point.

Typical argument of appealing to the extreme.

Yes we lock up the boat people who have been proven 90% genuine, but the Qantas ones, who have a much lesser strike rate, are at large in our society until processed. Some are even gainfully employed. Go figure.
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Old 11th January 2019, 04:42 PM   #579
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Typical argument of appealing to the extreme.

Yes we lock up the boat people who have been proven 90% genuine, but the Qantas ones, who have a much lesser strike rate, are at large in our society until processed. Some are even gainfully employed. Go figure.
And without putting too fine a point on it, the problem with the boat people being brown, and the Qantas people being (typically) not brown doesn't factor in any of this does it?

I keep hearing that we have quite serious problems with over-stayers from the USA, Ireland and the United Kingdom, but the shock-jocks don't seem to be interested in that.

Again, I'm assuming that's because those people are "not-brown".

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Old 11th January 2019, 09:12 PM   #580
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
How many do we grant asylum to? Do we knock any back? What do we do with the asylum seekers in the mean time? Do we allow them to live where they want? Get jobs or social security? Do we lock them up?
Why not process them as fast as possible and allow them to do what they came here for - make a life, get jobs, contribute to our communities.

Quote:
I presume that you are aware that the Rudd government's more "compassionate" approach saw all the asylum centres filled to bursting point.
Not because there were too many coming in but there were too few being processed out, i.e. given asylum or repatriated.

A really easy solution is to make the pathway in easier by processing them offshore, i.e. in the foreign refugee camps before they are even forced to look for smugglers in the first place. Then refugees will have a legal way in, or they will know up front they won't be allowed in and must look elsewhere. Either way, they will have some certainty. And I'm really sure Indonesia would be VERY pleased to reduce their refugee camp numbers too. There must be plenty of ways to do this that are cost-effective.

Before scoffing, remember that we have already done this before with the "Ten Pound Pom" scheme in the 1940's and 1950's. Australian embassies did the vetting and immigration control locally, not "border security" on the Australian mainland.
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Old 12th January 2019, 01:25 PM   #581
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
And without putting too fine a point on it, the problem with the boat people being brown, and the Qantas people being (typically) not brown doesn't factor in any of this does it?

I keep hearing that we have quite serious problems with over-stayers from the USA, Ireland and the United Kingdom, but the shock-jocks don't seem to be interested in that.

Again, I'm assuming that's because those people are "not-brown".

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Why not process them as fast as possible and allow them to do what they came here for - make a life, get jobs, contribute to our communities.

Not because there were too many coming in but there were too few being processed out, i.e. given asylum or repatriated.

A really easy solution is to make the pathway in easier by processing them offshore, i.e. in the foreign refugee camps before they are even forced to look for smugglers in the first place. Then refugees will have a legal way in, or they will know up front they won't be allowed in and must look elsewhere. Either way, they will have some certainty. And I'm really sure Indonesia would be VERY pleased to reduce their refugee camp numbers too. There must be plenty of ways to do this that are cost-effective.

Before scoffing, remember that we have already done this before with the "Ten Pound Pom" scheme in the 1940's and 1950's. Australian embassies did the vetting and immigration control locally, not "border security" on the Australian mainland.

Unfortunately the "stop the boats" cry gets votes. Votes from people who don't want their comfortable lives disrupted. Votes from people who really don't care too much about brown people getting killed in other parts of the World.

Right wing politicians play on this theme and exaggerate, and exaggerate some more, about the potential fleet of boats landing on our shores. Then they diminish and ignore, what we have found about the legitimacy of the refugees, who have taken this extraordinary and dangerous risk, to obtain safety in our land. To maintain consistency and save face about their "stop the boats" plan, they then make deals with other powers to take the genuine refugees of our hands. The fact that the refugees have ultimately been successful, after much more pain than they should have endured, is ignored.

Some politicians have even had the absolute gall to suggest their overriding concern is the safety of the boat people. These are often the same politicians that treat the surviving (many of them women and children) in such an appalling way.
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Old 12th January 2019, 02:08 PM   #582
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Unfortunately the "stop the boats" cry gets votes. Votes from people who don't want their comfortable lives disrupted. Votes from people who really don't care too much about brown people getting killed in other parts of the World.

Right wing politicians play on this theme and exaggerate, and exaggerate some more, about the potential fleet of boats landing on our shores. Then they diminish and ignore, what we have found about the legitimacy of the refugees, who have taken this extraordinary and dangerous risk, to obtain safety in our land. To maintain consistency and save face about their "stop the boats" plan, they then make deals with other powers to take the genuine refugees of our hands. The fact that the refugees have ultimately been successful, after much more pain than they should have endured, is ignored.

Some politicians have even had the absolute gall to suggest their overriding concern is the safety of the boat people. These are often the same politicians that treat the surviving (many of them women and children) in such an appalling way.
You are 100% right. But the big question is how do you counter such arguments?
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Old 12th January 2019, 02:24 PM   #583
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
You are 100% right. But the big question is how do you counter such arguments?
Point to the success stories of previous boat people. Because this has been going on since the 1970's (when I was at uni and we had Vietnamese refugee students join us).

And before that. To the Italians who arrived by boat in the 1950's and to whom we owe our modern cafe culture and changed national diet.

And before that to the Lebanese who arrived in the 1920's and whose names are well known...Shehadie, Bashir.
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Old 12th January 2019, 02:31 PM   #584
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Unfortunately the "stop the boats" cry gets votes. Votes from people who don't want their comfortable lives disrupted. Votes from people who really don't care too much about brown people getting killed in other parts of the World.

Right wing politicians play on this theme and exaggerate, and exaggerate some more, about the potential fleet of boats landing on our shores. Then they diminish and ignore, what we have found about the legitimacy of the refugees, who have taken this extraordinary and dangerous risk, to obtain safety in our land. To maintain consistency and save face about their "stop the boats" plan, they then make deals with other powers to take the genuine refugees of our hands. The fact that the refugees have ultimately been successful, after much more pain than they should have endured, is ignored.

Some politicians have even had the absolute gall to suggest their overriding concern is the safety of the boat people. These are often the same politicians that treat the surviving (many of them women and children) in such an appalling way.
BUILD THAT WALL! Same thing.

They are much louder than they are legion. The Paulines of the right coukd all fit in one room they are so few. More and more people now realise they are not well served by populism. Morrison being a slave of optics and polls is learning this. Howard got savaged by it. Let's hope Labor learn that lesson.
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Old 12th January 2019, 03:05 PM   #585
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Unfortunately the "stop the boats" cry gets votes. Votes from people who don't want their comfortable lives disrupted. Votes from people who really don't care too much about brown people getting killed in other parts of the World.

Right wing politicians play on this theme and exaggerate, and exaggerate some more, about the potential fleet of boats landing on our shores. Then they diminish and ignore, what we have found about the legitimacy of the refugees, who have taken this extraordinary and dangerous risk, to obtain safety in our land. To maintain consistency and save face about their "stop the boats" plan, they then make deals with other powers to take the genuine refugees of our hands. The fact that the refugees have ultimately been successful, after much more pain than they should have endured, is ignored.

Some politicians have even had the absolute gall to suggest their overriding concern is the safety of the boat people. These are often the same politicians that treat the surviving (many of them women and children) in such an appalling way.
Lest people reading this think Australia is full of racist rednecks, a few facts:

Around half the population has a parent born overseas
Our immigrant policy is non-discriminatory
We have an official multiculturism policy
“Brown” people are welcome and accepted by all but a few

Yes I get that some people want to replace skilled migrants and family reunion migrants with refugees, but the people of Australia have decided overwhelmingly (the debate is over at a political level) that the mix we have at the moment is fine.
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Old 12th January 2019, 04:23 PM   #586
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
And without putting too fine a point on it, the problem with the boat people being brown, and the Qantas people being (typically) not brown doesn't factor in any of this does it?
No it doesn't. You can't suppress debate by labeling people as racist.

The fact remains that people smuggling is a profitable industry which can only be curtailed if a hard line is taken against people entering by boat.

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Why not process them as fast as possible and allow them to do what they came here for - make a life, get jobs, contribute to our communities.

Not because there were too many coming in but there were too few being processed out, i.e. given asylum or repatriated.
Are you saying that the Rudd government's policy was to process refugee applications slowly?
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Old 12th January 2019, 05:05 PM   #587
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No it doesn't. You can't suppress debate by labeling people as racist.

The fact remains that people smuggling is a profitable industry which can only be curtailed if a hard line is taken against people entering by boat.


Are you saying that the Rudd government's policy was to process refugee applications slowly?

Once again psion muddies the waters in a vain attempt to score points.
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Old 12th January 2019, 05:19 PM   #588
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I can't believe how hard nosed some of these government ministers are. Now this prick Coleman is putting the weights on local councils to toe the line about Australia Day:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-...ncils/10711476


Quote:
The Federal Government has ramped up its efforts to force local councils to hold citizenship ceremonies on Australia Day.
Immigration Minister David Coleman has announced he will update the code that governs how citizenship ceremonies are conducted, to ensure they are held on January 26.

Why does it mean so much to do this and stir up unnecessary ill feeling?
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:21 PM   #589
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
<snip>

The fact remains that people smuggling is a profitable industry which can only be curtailed if a hard line is taken against people entering by boat.

<snip>

You could always build a wall.

Once you get past the first 1,954 miles it goes pretty easy.
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Old 12th January 2019, 08:32 PM   #590
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Yes I get that some people want to replace skilled migrants and family reunion migrants with refugees, but the people of Australia have decided overwhelmingly (the debate is over at a political level) that the mix we have at the moment is fine.
And when that mix violates international agreements that we've signed?

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You could always build a wall.

Once you get past the first 1,954 miles it goes pretty easy.
We're already girt by sea, what good would an extra wall do?
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Old 12th January 2019, 09:36 PM   #591
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Once again psion muddies the waters in a vain attempt to score points.
Inability to address the argument noted.
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Old 12th January 2019, 10:46 PM   #592
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Inability to address the argument noted.

I'm sure Norman Alexander and novaphile will answer your "arguments" very effectively - as you were responding to them. I was just noting how you were muddying the waters.
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Old 12th January 2019, 10:55 PM   #593
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
And when that mix violates international agreements that we've signed
Well I don’t believe that that is the case, but can be persuaded otherwise if you could cite these agreements.
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Old 12th January 2019, 11:20 PM   #594
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Point to the success stories of previous boat people. Because this has been going on since the 1970's (when I was at uni and we had Vietnamese refugee students join us).

And before that. To the Italians who arrived by boat in the 1950's and to whom we owe our modern cafe culture and changed national diet.

And before that to the Lebanese who arrived in the 1920's and whose names are well known...Shehadie, Bashir.

Before that we had the 600,000 who arrived in a short time during the Gold rush including Britain and Ireland, Continental Europe, China, the United States and New Zealand and the South Pacific.


And before that... oh wait that would be all white Europeans 60 years earlier.


And before that the traditional owners. That would be 50,000 years earlier again.



Quite a history of migration.



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Old 12th January 2019, 11:59 PM   #595
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
Before that we had the 600,000 who arrived in a short time during the Gold rush including Britain and Ireland, Continental Europe, China, the United States and New Zealand and the South Pacific.


And before that... oh wait that would be all white Europeans 60 years earlier.


And before that the traditional owners. That would be 50,000 years earlier again.



Quite a history of migration.



Norm
Jeez, is anyone denying the success of immigration to Australia? Certainly not me. Non-discriminatory immigration? Nope. Multiculturalism? Again no.

I’ve been arguing for a safe, controlled immigration system. A system where people smugglers have no place. And I do not apologise for this.
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Old 13th January 2019, 12:25 AM   #596
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I'm sure Norman Alexander and novaphile will answer your "arguments" very effectively - as you were responding to them. I was just noting how you were muddying the waters I didn't understand them.
ftfy.
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Old 13th January 2019, 02:55 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The fact remains that people smuggling is a profitable industry which can only be curtailed if a hard line is taken against people entering by boat.
Wrong. It can be curtailed by simply making it not profitable. That's the only reason the Indonesian fishermen even think of trying this lark - the massive amount of money they could earn. They will only smuggle people who feel the need to be smuggled. Resolve those needs by processing them BEFORE they think about trying people-smugglers and cut the trade off at the knees. Doesn't mean it will completely disappear, of course.

Quote:
Are you saying that the Rudd government's policy was to process refugee applications slowly?
Not deliberately. They failed to invest sufficient resources into it, in a number of areas. Oh and don't pick on just Rudd. Howard was equally remiss in failing to process refugees. Remember all the big camps out in the desert at Woomera? Same solution, different "island", that's all.
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Old 13th January 2019, 04:41 AM   #598
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Wrong. It can be curtailed by simply making it not profitable. That's the only reason the Indonesian fishermen even think of trying this lark - the massive amount of money they could earn. They will only smuggle people who feel the need to be smuggled. Resolve those needs by processing them BEFORE they think about trying people-smugglers and cut the trade off at the knees. Doesn't mean it will completely disappear, of course.
You have no idea how many people want to escape their own circumstances and live in Australia. And what happens if their application for asylum is knocked back? They turn straight to a people smuggler.

If you don't make it loud and clear to people smugglers that they can't succeed they will operate in droves.

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Not deliberately. They failed to invest sufficient resources into it, in a number of areas. Oh and don't pick on just Rudd. Howard was equally remiss in failing to process refugees. Remember all the big camps out in the desert at Woomera? Same solution, different "island", that's all.
The camps were all filled to the brim again thanks to Rudd. They were pretty much in mothballs by the end of Howard's term though this isn't about the hard-on-refugees libs. They are expected to act like this.

In the end, Rudd acted more Howard like over the incessant people smuggling. He know of no other way to stop what was happening. (And I'm sure he thought of "speedy" processing).
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Old 13th January 2019, 05:51 AM   #599
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You could always build a wall.

Once you get past the first 1,954 miles it goes pretty easy.

We're already girt by sea, what good would an extra wall do?

Once they get off the boat they can't go anywhere.

(Perhaps I should have included a smilie in my post. It was somewhat tongue-in-in-cheek. A comment on walls, which are preoccupying many of us here in the U.S. 1,954 miles is, not coincidentally, the length of our border with Mexico.)
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Old 13th January 2019, 12:54 PM   #600
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You have no idea how many people want to escape their own circumstances and live in Australia. And what happens if their application for asylum is knocked back? They turn straight to a people smuggler.
So now we have these people being described as people who just "want to escape their own circumstances and live in Australia." You ignore the proof that 90% were/are genuine refugees and just imply they are looking for a better life.

You should take into account what a hazardous journey this is. People have to be desperate to even contemplate it. They are not queue jumpers as you may like to label them to ease your conscience.



Quote:
The camps were all filled to the brim again thanks to Rudd. They were pretty much in mothballs by the end of Howard's term though this isn't about the hard-on-refugees libs. They are expected to act like this.

In the end, Rudd acted more Howard like over the incessant people smuggling. He know of no other way to stop what was happening. (And I'm sure he thought of "speedy" processing).
Why to you harp on about this crap.

Just your attempt to turn this into a Labor versus Liberal contest and muddy the waters as I said before methinks.
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