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Old 11th January 2019, 02:59 PM   #81
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 11th January 2019, 03:00 PM   #82
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Give me a break. Of all the pathetic excuses for failing, this has to be way way way up there
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Old 11th January 2019, 03:10 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There are many, many pubs in Australia where that will be the exact response. And then they'll say "Come on mate, another pint won't hurt!" And then another. A certain segment of the Australian population will revel in dragging an alcoholic off the wagon.
Yeah, true enough. I will go out on a limb and suggest that these are not the type of people you would expect to meet at academic conferences, though.

Generally speaking, these days, behaviour like that would get around pretty fast and would likely be pretty damaging to the reputation of those academics.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 11th January 2019, 03:11 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Huh. I don't go into pubs often, but when I do I almost always have a diet coke (or pepsi, if I absolutely must). I'm not against alcohol, I just don't drink it much.

I've never once felt judged for it. Nobody has ever so much as mentioned that I'm not drinking booze, let alone mentioned it in a disparaging way. If they did my reaction would be along the lines of "why do you care what I drink?"
It used to be a bit of an issue, maybe 25 years ago, but certainly in my current circle, there is no pressure - some people drive, and others are Muslim, for example, and others just want a soft drink that time.
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Old 11th January 2019, 03:17 PM   #85
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So thinking about my experiences...

When I was in grad school, we drank a lot at conferences. But I didn't pay a lot of attention to what others were doing because there was booze available.

Now that I am older, I don't drink much at conferences any more. Certainly don't get drunk. Most conferences I attend have a bar/drinks with the poster session, but no one pays much attention to what you are drinking.
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Old 11th January 2019, 03:19 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
It's already happening, has been for some time, though a bit less noticeable than the change in smoking (I can recall when smoking at your desk in an open plan office was the norm, and people would even light up in someone else's home without asking permission first).

When I started work, it was normal to go to the pub on a Friday lunchtime, and then go back to the office; some people went more often than that. A couple of places I worked at even had bars on site which were open at lunchtime. Driving after a few drinks was seen as a risk only in terms of possibly getting caught, not because it was dangerous to others. Those attitudes have changed, and I think they are continuing to do so.
Yeah, very true. I remember working at a turnstile factory and on a Friday afternoon everyone went off to the pub to have a few pints and even a few shots of vodka before getting back to work on the wiring. This was as late as the 90s and the turnstiles were for the Cardiff Millenium Stadium. When the stadium opened, the turnstiles didnít work. Not sure if there is any connection.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 11th January 2019, 03:21 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah, very true. I remember working at a turnstile factory and on a Friday afternoon everyone went off to the pub to have a few pints and even a few shots of vodka before getting back to work on the wiring. This was as late as the 90s and the turnstiles were for the Cardiff Millenium Stadium. When the stadium opened, the turnstiles didnít work. Not sure if there is any connection.
During my masters (mid 1990's) at the company I was seconded to, it was a tradition to have a pub lunch on a Friday. The first week I had a half of beer, because that would be fine. I really struggled in the lab for the rest of the day and stuck to soft drinks during work time since then.
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Old 11th January 2019, 03:31 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah, very true. I remember working at a turnstile factory and on a Friday afternoon everyone went off to the pub to have a few pints and even a few shots of vodka before getting back to work on the wiring. This was as late as the 90s and the turnstiles were for the Cardiff Millenium Stadium. When the stadium opened, the turnstiles didnít work. Not sure if there is any connection.
Ha ha! I just noticed the unintentional pun! I ******* crack myself up and Iím not even drunk.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 11th January 2019, 04:11 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Alcohol is not some magic ticket that allows entry into the conversation.
Some people who develop drinking problems talk about feeling this way exactly - they are medicating social phobia.

I've been sober when everybody else was drinking and it was fine for the first 2 drinks. After that I couldn't tell what they were saying anymore, although they understood each other perfectly.
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Old 11th January 2019, 04:37 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Some people who develop drinking problems talk about feeling this way exactly - they are medicating social phobia.

I've been sober when everybody else was drinking and it was fine for the first 2 drinks. After that I couldn't tell what they were saying anymore, although they understood each other perfectly.
Did they, though? Or did they just think they understood each other?
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Old 11th January 2019, 05:08 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm not seeing any of those demonstrating that "They [studies] also show that alcoholics drink to achieve a particular level of drunkenness that they can describe before they start drinking. They are actually controlled drinkers."

Can you quote what you see as the relevant parts?
https://trid.trb.org/view.aspx?id=186702

Quote:
This article examines evidence from studies which show that psychological processes have as much--or more--to do with some drinking behaviors than do the physical effects of alcohol. In a series of experiments with a unique "balanced placebo" design, psychologists have shown that people will act in certain stereotypical ways when they drink, even if they are drinking tonic water but have been told they are drinking vodka and tonic.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/b...-chronic-brain

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/b...coholics-drink

Quote:
And, despite the permission to drink, these long-term alcoholics reduced their consumption, from an average of 16 drinks daily at the start to 14 drinks at six months to 10 drinks daily by year's end.
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Old 11th January 2019, 05:39 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
This is the same sort of thinking that leads people to believe that someone who suffers from clinical depression can "just snap out of it" if they really try, and they're just using depression as an excuse.
No, it's CBT and it is used to help people with all sorts of problems. Sitting in a corner drinking excessively because you are uncomfortable talking to strangers has a pretty simple solution, I know. I did that without the drinking, still have the urge. Practising interacting with strangers really helped that. I'm not the life of any party but I can initiate conversation and keep it flowing and actually go home thinking I had a good time and looking forward to the next time briefly.

The only one who can change your behaviours is you. You can do that with or without the help of professionals.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:24 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Those are all very interesting finding (which I was actually already aware of), but they don't show that "They [studies] also show that alcoholics drink to achieve a particular level of drunkenness that they can describe before they start drinking. They are actually controlled drinkers."
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:20 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
No, it's CBT and it is used to help people with all sorts of problems. Sitting in a corner drinking excessively because you are uncomfortable talking to strangers has a pretty simple solution, I know. I did that without the drinking, still have the urge. Practising interacting with strangers really helped that. I'm not the life of any party but I can initiate conversation and keep it flowing and actually go home thinking I had a good time and looking forward to the next time briefly.

The only one who can change your behaviours is you. You can do that with or without the help of professionals.

Sounds like more of the same. "Just tough it out. Try harder. You can do it if you really want to."

Maybe that worked for you, but it isn't a solution everyone can manage. Especially people with severe anxiety disorder, which can be debilitating. These are not very often people who can do that without help. If they can do it without help then they probably weren't dealing with a severe disorder. Just extreme shyness, which isn't the same thing.

Yes, CBT can help, also some medications ... sometimes. It isn't ever an easy road, and for the ones with a serious condition bootstrapping isn't going to happen very often at all. Sometimes even trying can make things worse.
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:51 AM   #95
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I find I need to have a few drinks at conferences otherwise I don't have the courage to chat up women in elevators.
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Old 12th January 2019, 01:17 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Those are all very interesting finding (which I was actually already aware of), but they don't show that "They [studies] also show that alcoholics drink to achieve a particular level of drunkenness that they can describe before they start drinking. They are actually controlled drinkers."
Those show controlled drinking. The study which showed how alcoholics would work to gain enough credits to go on 2-3 day benders shows they knew the level they wanted to be at for those days and how many credits they would need. They then went out and did exactly what they planned to do.

Quote:
Laboratory studies of the drinking behavior of alcoholics did far more than disprove the simplistic notion of a biologically based loss of control. The work of Mello and Mendelson (1972), Nathan and O'Brien (1971), and the Baltimore City Hospital group (Bigelow et al., 1974; Cohen et al., 1971) showed that alcoholic behavior could not be described in terms of an internal compulsion to drink, but rather that even alcoholics--while drinking--remained sensitive to environmental and cognitive inputs, realized the impact of reward and punishment, were aware of the presence of others around them and of their behavior, and drank to achieve a specific level of intoxication. For example, Mello and Mendelson (1972) found that alcoholics worked to accumulate enough experimental credits to be able to drink 2 or 3 days straight, even when they were already undergoing withdrawal from previous intoxication. Alcoholics observed by Bigelow et al. (1974) drank less when the experimenters forced them to leave a social area to consume their drinks in a isolated compartment. Many aspects of this laboratory portrait of the social, environmental and intentional elements in alcoholic imbibing correspond to the picture of problem drinking that was provided by the national surveys conducted by Cahalan and his co-workers (Cahalan, 1970; Cahalan and Room, 1974; Clark and Cahalan, 1976).
Not all the studies are available for free online.
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:36 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Yes, there is a huge problem with those studies as researchers have pointed out. The people who have the highest acetaldehyde levels when they drink, Native Americans, the Inuit, and Asians, not only have the highest rate of alcoholism (Native Americans and Inuit), they have the lowest (Chinese and Japanese).

So those groups have the genetics in common but not the alcoholic outcomes. It is far more likely that alcoholism rates are so high for Native Americans and Inuit because of their isolation and socio-economic standing.

There are also issues with the twin studies. They do not show a genetic connection. They show male children of alcoholics are more likely to become alcoholics but not female offspring. Female alcoholics mostly come from non-alcoholic parents. Also, studies between maternal and fraternal twins show no difference in rates which they should if the link is genetic. Geneticists studying these have stated the most likely cause for the higher rate in males of alcoholic parents is learned behaviour and bad parenting examples.

Robert Cloninger

George Vaillant
I am not sure I agree with this:

Quote:
Quote:
"I think it [finding a biological marker for alcoholism] would be as unlikely as finding one for basketball playing. . . . [The high number of children of alcoholics who become addicted] is due less to biological factors than to poor role models"
George Vaillant

There are definitely some people who drink to specifically get a drink 'high', who IMV are quite different from people who are simply socialising.
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:41 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
So you've had genetic testing done and were diagnosed with a issue that causes you to be an alcoholic?
There is a real alcoholic gene in Finland. People were introduced to coffee-drinking instead*. So now they are all coffee addicts who drink more coffee per head than almost anywhere else in the world.

* (Rather like Fry's chocolate drinks and Cadbury's Bourneville chocolate being introduced in England as part of a temperance movement).
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:43 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
AA says a lot of things, one of which is that alcoholics cannot drink at all or they will relapse. They claim even the alcohol in a dessert will cause an alcoholic to go on a binge. Studies however show none of that is true. They also show that alcoholics drink to achieve a particular level of drunkenness that they can describe before they start drinking. They are actually controlled drinkers.

Alcoholics who are unaware they are drinking alcohol do not develop an uncontrollable urge to drink more. Alcoholics drink the most when they think they are drinking alcoholic drinks whether there is, or is not, alcohol in the drinks.



Studies have also shown that the genetic link to alcoholism is not true. They show that even for those who geneticists feel might have a genetic link to alcoholism, culture and environment are the major determinants.

AA claims that drinking problems only get worse but that isn't true. Heavy binge drinkers in their early twenties rarely carry it over into middle age. Studies also show that natural remission, even without outside intervention is by far the norm.

The most important thing for recovery though is that studies show alcoholism is not a primary disease. People get over bad drinking habits when changes happen in other areas of their lives.



Alcoholics are better served to spend their time fixing problem areas of their lives in order to curb their drinking habits.

There is some truth in this IMV.
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:48 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Source/link?
This does not describe hardly any problem-drinkers I've ever known. The closest I can think of are people who had a really high tolerance from drinking nightly and were able to, with effort, drink until they felt sleepy without getting falling down drunk some of the time.



Again, link? Was that testing the equivalent of 5 or 6 standard drink units? It's usually at "significantly, noticeably buzzed" that the compulsion to drink more kicks in.




Well, duh.




That is true, even among people who develop "severe" addiction - physical dependence. Most people just naturally age out of it without any sort of formal treatment.




For a whole lot of people, the former isn't really possible without doing rather a lot about the latter, first. Over-consumption of alcohol physically causes anxiety disorders and depression, too, which generally "heal" with abstinence.



Yes, they do.
https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi...6/ajp.156.1.34


https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...3.2008.02213.x



Twin studies in women:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1404711


Males again:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...bstract/490841
People who drink to excess in their youth (socialising) aren't really becoming dependent and nor do they drink more because of habituation. They simply get fed up waking up with a hangover and recall how sick they felt drinking several pints with their mates.

A true alcoholic IMV drinks to get drunk and knows in advance that that is his or her aim.
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:55 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
It's already happening, has been for some time, though a bit less noticeable than the change in smoking (I can recall when smoking at your desk in an open plan office was the norm, and people would even light up in someone else's home without asking permission first).

When I started work, it was normal to go to the pub on a Friday lunchtime, and then go back to the office; some people went more often than that. A couple of places I worked at even had bars on site which were open at lunchtime. Driving after a few drinks was seen as a risk only in terms of possibly getting caught, not because it was dangerous to others. Those attitudes have changed, and I think they are continuing to do so.
Just a few years ago in the city, I had to undergo a 'beer test' before I even got the job. This involved attending the 'local pub' near the Barbican and 'meeting the team'.

Friday afternoons, we would all finish work at four and meet in the basement for 'drinks'. Then groups of us would move on to a nearby nightclub style bar - which was packed to the rafters - clutching bottles of Bacardi Breezers obtained during the 'drinks' session, whilst walking along the pavement.

When I left, I was taken on a pub crawl around Farringdon. There were 'treasure hunts' which were glorified pub crawls.

All this because the senior accountant was a raging alcoholic who wanted company for when he went out bingeing.
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Old 12th January 2019, 07:05 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Some people who develop drinking problems talk about feeling this way exactly - they are medicating social phobia.

I've been sober when everybody else was drinking and it was fine for the first 2 drinks. After that I couldn't tell what they were saying anymore, although they understood each other perfectly.
Yeah. A lovely elderly Scottish guy I used to know who died of brain cancer some years ago, told me he was an alcoholic and this started because as a young man in the armed forces, he was so painfully shy, he found drink gave him the Dutch courage to socialise.
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Old 12th January 2019, 07:10 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
No, it's CBT and it is used to help people with all sorts of problems. Sitting in a corner drinking excessively because you are uncomfortable talking to strangers has a pretty simple solution, I know. I did that without the drinking, still have the urge. Practising interacting with strangers really helped that. I'm not the life of any party but I can initiate conversation and keep it flowing and actually go home thinking I had a good time and looking forward to the next time briefly.

The only one who can change your behaviours is you. You can do that with or without the help of professionals.
I'm sceptical about CBT. It has been used on violent offenders. For example, whenever the young ruffian feels a red mist forming if someone looks at them 'funny' and they reach for the knife blade, they were taught to react differently and try thinking about kittens and bunny wabbits instead.

I don't think it had any effect on recidivism rates.
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Old 12th January 2019, 07:17 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Did they, though? Or did they just think they understood each other?
I doubt if they remember either way. These weren't very deep conversations .
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Old 12th January 2019, 07:18 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yeah. A lovely elderly Scottish guy I used to know who died of brain cancer some years ago, told me he was an alcoholic and this started because as a young man in the armed forces, he was so painfully shy, he found drink gave him the Dutch courage to socialise.
I wonder what they call Dutch courage in the Netherlands.
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Old 12th January 2019, 07:49 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There are many, many pubs in Australia where that will be the exact response. And then they'll say "Come on mate, another pint won't hurt!" And then another. A certain segment of the Australian population will revel in dragging an alcoholic off the wagon.
As a character in "Orange is the New Black" put it, "I'm not an alcoholic. I'm Australian!"
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Old 12th January 2019, 08:33 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I'm sceptical about CBT. It has been used on violent offenders. For example, whenever the young ruffian feels a red mist forming if someone looks at them 'funny' and they reach for the knife blade, they were taught to react differently and try thinking about kittens and bunny wabbits instead.

I don't think it had any effect on recidivism rates.

Maybe they should have tried the other kind of CBT instead.
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Old 12th January 2019, 09:27 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There is a real alcoholic gene in Finland. People were introduced to coffee-drinking instead*. So now they are all coffee addicts who drink more coffee per head than almost anywhere else in the world.
.
Don't you think that suggests that there isn't an 'alcoholic gene'? Maybe a gene (not that it's ever that simple) for addiction.
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Old 12th January 2019, 09:30 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Don't you think that suggests that there isn't an 'alcoholic gene'? Maybe a gene (not that it's ever that simple) for addiction.
Or it could just be that over-consumption of coffee helps alcoholics not drink alcohol. AA meetings are notorious for their coffee-guzzling, too.
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Old 12th January 2019, 09:32 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Maybe they should have tried the other kind of CBT instead.
"When on the cusp of murder, think about bunnies and kittens" sure doesn't sound like high-quality CBT to me.
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Old 12th January 2019, 10:26 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Just a few years ago in the city, I had to undergo a 'beer test' before I even got the job. This involved attending the 'local pub' near the Barbican and 'meeting the team'.

Friday afternoons, we would all finish work at four and meet in the basement for 'drinks'. Then groups of us would move on to a nearby nightclub style bar - which was packed to the rafters - clutching bottles of Bacardi Breezers obtained during the 'drinks' session, whilst walking along the pavement.

When I left, I was taken on a pub crawl around Farringdon. There were 'treasure hunts' which were glorified pub crawls.

All this because the senior accountant was a raging alcoholic who wanted company for when he went out bingeing.
You were an adult I assume. Doesn't that mean you made a choice to go along. It's not the senior accountant's fault.
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Old 12th January 2019, 10:48 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Not really. I just turned it back onto the only person who can make a change in anyone's life, themselves. It's like saying a comedian offended you. No the comedian didn't offend you. They told a joke and you felt pressure to feel offended and went with it. Same with drinking. Your friend is drinking, offers you a drink, and you felt pressure to drink. In both of those you have a choice: Will you drink/be offended or will you not drink/be offended...
Not always true. Physical addiction adds another element.

Your post may as well have been written by Werner Erhard. He had a similar binary outlook on a domain that is not binary. He lacked the education and knowledge to be making such sweeping generalizations, and it appears that is also true of you.
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:31 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
There is a new article in the Chronicle of Higher Education about how the networking and social functions at scholarly conferences tend to be solidly anchored around alcohol consumption, and how that is a barrier which keeps people who don't drink from being able to fully participate in these conferences, or at least in those very important functions that these conferences serve.

While maybe it doesn't quite count as a "scholarly" or "academic" conference, the TAMs certainly strove to run along the same lines at least. And as a teetotaler, I found myself largely locked out of the social scene when I attended TAM4. Once all of the mid-day talks and presentations were done, it was time for socializing; and quite frankly, in large part this meant going to a hotel bar - either at the conference hotel or some other hotel on the Strip. Or it meant a group of people going to somebody's hotel room, and of course drinking there. There was the enormously popular "pub crawl" as well, which I couldn't attend because what is the point of a pub crawl if you don't drink anything at them?

Certainly there were alternatives - once I was able to go to a restaurant with a group of attendees, and in another case I was able to explore the Vegas strip with a couple of friends where although drinks were occasionally ordered the alcohol wasn't the focus and so my declining to imbibe wasn't as conspicuous. And as enjoyable as they were, these events by their sparsity served to highlight how much of the socializing I was missing out on the rest of the time.

It might be natural to argue that the solution is to go hang out at the bar or do the pub crawl anyway, and simply not drink because nobody will care. To this my rebuttal is simply that my own experience has proven that this isn't true. When you go to an event or a location that's centered around alcohol and you don't drink anything, people do notice, and they do judge you for it. They can even become annoyed or irritated at you for it; at the very least you're in for some snide comments that taint the experience. I'm honestly not sure what the reason for this is - I sometimes suspect it's because some people who drink feel that people who don't must be judging them, which upsets them. It seems to be the case that when I tell people I don't drink alcohol, they assume it must be for some religious or moral reason, which of course must necessarily mean I have to consider them to be morally bad because they drink - or they assume them drinking around me must be making me uncomfortable, which creates this feedback loop of discomfort that irritates them. For this reason I often feel compelled when telling someone that I don't drink to immediately elaborate that it has nothing to do with morality or any such thing, and that I don't care if other people drink - but I'm not sure it's always convincing. Perhaps it's like telling someone you're asexual - they just don't believe it because they can't conceive of anyone who doesn't think drinking is somehow "wrong", still refusing to drink.

And that's just the issue for someone like me who simply doesn't like alcohol. The article focuses more on "sober" people - those who are recovering from alcohol addiction. For them the problem is much worse, because "just go there and don't order any drinks, and grin and bear it through the awkward questions and snide comments" isn't even a hypothetical option - it's too vital to their recovery to not only avoid being served alcohol, but avoid situations in which everyone around them is drinking it.

Now the TAMs are long gone of course; I'm not even sure there are "skeptical" conferences of any kind going on these days. But conferences of other kinds, including ones that deal with scientific and academic subjects, do go on. Keeping in mind the article's assertion that the point isn't to "ban drinking" at events or somehow change all of society to de-emphasize alcohol consumption as a social linchpin; what are some things that can be done at conferences and other similar events to allow non-drinkers to partake in the important social networking that is at least half the point of these events?
My solution would be to tell the people who feel awkward not drinking to get over it.

No one is going to beat you up for it, you are not going to lose your job, or family, or financial stability. In fact you will be slightly richer than if you had drank.

If it's a big thing to you, that is a personal problem, and doesn't require modifications to the rest of society.

On a personal note things like this read " how can we make this thing something i like at the expense of others enjoyment" an attitude I thoroughly dislike. If you don't like an activity ,don't engage, don't demand people change it to suit you.

Or you could start your own alcohol free events, if the demand is there.
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Old 12th January 2019, 03:59 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
My solution would be to tell the people who feel awkward not drinking to get over it.

No one is going to beat you up for it, you are not going to lose your job, or family, or financial stability. In fact you will be slightly richer than if you had drank.

If it's a big thing to you, that is a personal problem, and doesn't require modifications to the rest of society.

On a personal note things like this read " how can we make this thing something i like at the expense of others enjoyment" an attitude I thoroughly dislike. If you don't like an activity ,don't engage, don't demand people change it to suit you.

Or you could start your own alcohol free events, if the demand is there.
Those are my feelings exactly. More people who go to these things drink and so networking is often done where drinks are accessible but there is no requirement that you drink. If you feel there is you need to deal with the issue.
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Old 12th January 2019, 04:14 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Or it could just be that over-consumption of coffee helps alcoholics not drink alcohol. AA meetings are notorious for their coffee-guzzling, too.
That still means there isn't an alcoholic gene. It's simple logic.

You might claim there is an addiction gene instead but that really throws a wrench into the claims about alcoholism because people addicted to other things mostly stop being addicted on their own. It's not the "till death do you part" myth AA promotes and is repeated by some in this thread. It also means addicts have control over their addictions.

The disease model treats alcoholics as powerless victims to their drinking problem when really they have the ability to fix the problem in much shorter time than the average time it takes the problem to run its course.
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Old 12th January 2019, 05:30 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
That still means there isn't an alcoholic gene. It's simple logic.

You might claim there is an addiction gene instead but that really throws a wrench into the claims about alcoholism because people addicted to other things mostly stop being addicted on their own. It's not the "till death do you part" myth AA promotes and is repeated by some in this thread. It also means addicts have control over their addictions.

The disease model treats alcoholics as powerless victims to their drinking problem when really they have the ability to fix the problem in much shorter time than the average time it takes the problem to run its course.
Regardless of the genetic predisposition - and there is definitely a genetic predisposition to not become an alcoholic* one can become physically dependent on alcohol so that rapid withdrawal may be fatal







*due to (mainly East Asian) people who lack a gene to metabolise alcohol easily, so suffer the Alcohol flush reaction similar to the drug "antabuse"
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Old 12th January 2019, 05:41 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
That still means there isn't an alcoholic gene. It's simple logic.

You might claim there is an addiction gene instead but that really throws a wrench into the claims about alcoholism because people addicted to other things mostly stop being addicted on their own. It's not the "till death do you part" myth AA promotes and is repeated by some in this thread. It also means addicts have control over their addictions.

The disease model treats alcoholics as powerless victims to their drinking problem when really they have the ability to fix the problem in much shorter time than the average time it takes the problem to run its course.
A gene (or genes) for a behavioral predisposition wouldn't work like a gene for red hair or brown eyes - there's always going to be an interplay of nature and nurture with behaviors.

No idea what you see as "simple logic".

I don't see anyone parroting the AA "till death do you part" version of disease theory in this thread, either.

Re: "really they have the ability to fix the problem in much shorter time than the average time it takes the problem to run its course" - what are you talking about?
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Old 12th January 2019, 05:56 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I find I need to have a few drinks at conferences otherwise I don't have the courage to chat up women in elevators.
I hear that coffee does not work well at all.
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:34 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yeah. A lovely elderly Scottish guy I used to know who died of brain cancer some years ago, told me he was an alcoholic and this started because as a young man in the armed forces, he was so painfully shy, he found drink gave him the Dutch courage to socialise.

I wonder what they call Dutch courage in the Netherlands.

Scotch courage, of course.
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Old 12th January 2019, 07:41 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
A gene (or genes) for a behavioral predisposition wouldn't work like a gene for red hair or brown eyes - there's always going to be an interplay of nature and nurture with behaviors.

No idea what you see as "simple logic".

I don't see anyone parroting the AA "till death do you part" version of disease theory in this thread, either.

Re: "really they have the ability to fix the problem in much shorter time than the average time it takes the problem to run its course" - what are you talking about?
By simple logic I am saying to look at the contradictions with the claim there is a genetic link to alcoholism. The Asian, Native American and Inuit contradiction. That supposed link is absurd if it results in both the highest and lowest rates of alcoholism.

Look at many of the studies that link alcoholic children to alcoholic parents. In some of the test groups more of the members came from non-alcoholic parents than came from alcoholic parents. How does that support a genetic link?

Why do alcoholics get the same drunken results when they think they are drinking alcohol but are really drinking placebos? If they had a gene wouldn't that override the psychology?



To your last question: There is an average recovery period for alcoholics. Attendance at AA, the disease model of treatment, doesn't have any effect on that time frame. You will recover in the same time whether you go with them or not.

But there are methods to recover faster. The methods that treat the issues that cause people to drink mean alcoholics get their lives, and their drinking under control and much faster than the average rate of recovery. Alcoholism isn't the problem. Alcoholism is a symptom of greater problems. You've heard it in this thread. People drink for courage because; they are uncomfortable, they think it is expected, they are in bad marriages, hate their jobs, think they are failures, etc. That's not genetics, that's psychological.
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