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Old 11th January 2019, 02:37 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Until very recently it wasn't socially acceptable to not be religious. It still isn't in much of the world. Are atheists crazy?
Not analogous so I struggle to understand the point you are trying to make?
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Old 11th January 2019, 02:38 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Oh yes, I do remember Darat making some comment like that way back. If that was the post being discussed maybe you should have pasted it above your response. Didn't get a response to my question about your penetrating ability to perceive motive from a few words however.
It wasn't a comment of Darat's. It was some other person's. Tracing discussions backwards (to "keep up") is what those little red arrows by people names are for within the quote boxes.
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Old 11th January 2019, 08:22 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not analogous so I struggle to understand the point you are trying to make?
I think the point is that if sanity is defined as thinking "normally", the way most people think, then for most of human history it's atheism that would be considered insane.

Which is why you can't define sanity in terms of what you think is "normal".
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Old 11th January 2019, 09:32 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think the point is that if sanity is defined as thinking "normally", the way most people think, then for most of human history it's atheism that would be considered insane.
I'm sure many if not most theists did consider atheism a form of insanity in past times, and I'm also sure some continue to do so in modern times.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Which is why you can't define sanity in terms of what you think is "normal".
But if you're using "normal" as an antonym of "paranormal" rather then "abnormal", then in my opinion you can define "paranormal beliefs"(such as theism) as being a form of insanity.

"Form of insanity" doesn't necessarily mean strictly diagnosed, modern mental health, brain damaged form of insanity. And to rinse and repeat yet again, saying theism is a form of insanity isn't saying theists have a form of insanity beyond their theistic beliefs.
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Old 11th January 2019, 10:58 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I'm sure many if not most theists did consider atheism a form of insanity in past times, and I'm also sure some continue to do so in modern times.
Which no more makes that correct than modern atheists thinking theists are insane. Difference of opinion on the existence or nonexistence of gods does not determine sanity or lack thereof.

Quote:
But if you're using "normal" as an antonym of "paranormal" rather then "abnormal", then in my opinion you can define "paranormal beliefs"(such as theism) as being a form of insanity.
I wasn't using "normal" in that sense. As I said, I was using it in the sense "the way most people think".

Quote:
"Form of insanity" doesn't necessarily mean strictly diagnosed, modern mental health, brain damaged form of insanity. And to rinse and repeat yet again, saying theism is a form of insanity isn't saying theists have a form of insanity beyond their theistic beliefs.
Saying "theism is a form of insanity" is meaningless if you cannot define either sanity or insanity beyond proposing everyone who doesn't share your opinion on a given topic (in this case, theology) must be insane. Nor can insanity be merely having an opinion different than the majority because, as said above, that would mean atheism was an insane position for most of human history. So what is sanity? What is insanity? Without attempting to circularly define the terms with themselves, please. Until that's been answered there is no point in continuing further.
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Old 11th January 2019, 11:23 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Which no more makes that correct than modern atheists thinking theists are insane. Difference of opinion on the existence or nonexistence of gods does not determine sanity or lack thereof.
The reasonings are different . . .

Some theists think atheists are insane because they (the theists) "know" their god is absolutely, unarguably, undeniably true, and to think otherwise is insane.

Some Atheists think theists are insane because they think paranormal/supernatural beliefs are insane.

Only one is correct however. Can you spot which one

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I wasn't using "normal" in that sense. As I said, I was using it in the sense "the way most people think".
This thread isn't all about you and what you think and say. I was telling you what I think many atheists think and say.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Saying "theism is a form of insanity" is meaningless if you cannot define either sanity or insanity beyond proposing everyone who doesn't share your opinion on a given topic (in this case, theology) must be insane. Nor can insanity be merely having an opinion different than the majority because, as said above, that would mean atheism was an insane position for most of human history. So what is sanity? What is insanity? Without attempting to circularly define the terms with themselves, please. Until that's been answered there is no point in continuing further.
I was defining theism as as being an insane belief because it's a belief that's based on paranormal/supernatural phenomena that have no credible proof for their existence. Essentially, theists conflate fantasy and reality, and that's insane (IMO).

I mean "insane" in a colloquial sense that's similar to stupid, silly, mad, crazy, nuts, bonkers, loony, unintelligent use of a healthy brain, unhealthy use of healthy brain, etc. Or possibly in some rare cases actually medically certified mentally insane. I know a theist that sometimes seriously thinks he's the second coming of Jesus.
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Old 11th January 2019, 11:38 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I was defining theism as as being an insane belief because it's a belief that's based on paranormal/supernatural phenomena that have no credible proof for their existence.
Beliefs are either true, false, or a mix of true and false. Beliefs are never insane. Only people can be insane.

Quote:
Essentially, theists conflate fantasy and reality, and that's insane (IMO).
Then 100% of the population is insane, which renders the term meaningless.

Quote:
I mean "insane" in a colloquial sense that's similar to stupid, silly, mad, crazy, nuts, unintelligent use of a healthy brain, unhealthy use of healthy brain, etc. Or possibly in some rare cases actually medically certified mentally insane.
Other people in this thread (Darat, Thor) have been arguing that theism is quite literally a mental illness in the clinical, medical sense.
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Old 11th January 2019, 11:39 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
The reasonings are different . . .

Some theists think atheists are insane because they (the theists) "know" their god is absolutely, unarguably, undeniably true, and to think otherwise is insane.

Some Atheists think theists are insane because they think paranormal/supernatural beliefs are insane.

Only one is correct however. Can you spot which one
I repeat: being mistaken about something is not the same as being insane.

Quote:
This thread isn't all about you and what you think and say.
I have every right to participate in this thread, or any other. My remarks are on-topic. That you cannot put together a solid defense of your assertions doesn't make my participation invalid.

Quote:
I was telling you what I think many atheists think and say.
So I'm disagreeing not just with you, but with a nameless multitude you claim to represent? That doesn't make me any more convinced you're right.

Quote:
I was defining theism as as being an insane belief because it's a belief that's based on paranormal/supernatural phenomena that have no credible proof for their existence. Essentially, theists conflate fantasy and reality, and that's insane (IMO).
And I disagree. Your only basis for declaring a belief insane is your own disagreement with it.

Quote:
I mean "insane" in a colloquial sense that's similar to stupid, silly, mad, crazy, nuts, unintelligent use of a healthy brain, unhealthy use of healthy brain, etc. Or possibly in some rare cases actually medically certified mentally insane.
I hope you have a better basis for declaring an idea "stupid" than you have for declaring it "insane" because it looks like you're using the same definition for both: anything you don't agree with.
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Old 11th January 2019, 11:45 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Beliefs are either true, false, or a mix of true and false. Beliefs are never insane. Only people can be insane.
Using a colloquial synonym word I provided like silly. Are you claiming you can't have a silly belief?

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Then 100% of the population is insane, which renders the term meaningless.
I'm not aware I ever conflate fantasy and reality. Perhaps you know me better than I know myself and can give me an example of when and how I do.

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Other people in this thread (Darat, Thor) have been arguing that theism is quite literally a mental illness in the clinical, medical sense.
Even if true, I'm not Darat or Thor 2.
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Old 11th January 2019, 11:47 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I'm not aware I ever conflate fantasy and reality.
You've never in your life (in retrospect) believed something mostly because you wished it was true?
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Old 11th January 2019, 11:52 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I hope you have a better basis for declaring an idea "stupid" than you have for declaring it "insane" because it looks like you're using the same definition for both: anything you don't agree with.
You've never ever said anything like "I could kill that whatever"? If not, at least you're aware many people do and it's quite a common saying. But we both know the word "kill" isn't meant literally - right?.
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Old 11th January 2019, 11:55 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You've never in your life (in retrospect) believed something mostly because you wished it was true?
Not that I'm aware of. But even if I had that's not conflating fantasy and reality, it's merely wishing fantasy was reality, and I would still know they weren't the same thing. Got anything better?
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:00 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Not that I'm aware of. But even if I had that's not conflating fantasy and reality, it's merely wishing fantasy was reality, and I would still know they weren't the same thing.
You're either extraordinarily good at never falling for wishful thinking, or fantastically lacking in self-awareness about when it's happened in hindsight.
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:00 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Which no more makes that correct than modern atheists thinking theists are insane. Difference of opinion on the existence or nonexistence of gods does not determine sanity or lack thereof.







I wasn't using "normal" in that sense. As I said, I was using it in the sense "the way most people think".







Saying "theism is a form of insanity" is meaningless if you cannot define either sanity or insanity beyond proposing everyone who doesn't share your opinion on a given topic (in this case, theology) must be insane. Nor can insanity be merely having an opinion different than the majority because, as said above, that would mean atheism was an insane position for most of human history. So what is sanity? What is insanity? Without attempting to circularly define the terms with themselves, please. Until that's been answered there is no point in continuing further.


Hearing a voice in your head that isnít your own is an example of a symptom of mental illness according to the DSM *unless* you claim that voice is Jesus/god.
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:02 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Hearing a voice in your head that isnít your own is an example of a symptom of mental illness according to the DSM *unless* you claim that voice is Jesus/god.
They generally don't actually, literally hear the voice as though it's a hallucination or a hidden speaker in their room. They hear it "in their heart".
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:03 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post

Other people in this thread (Darat, Thor) have been arguing that theism is quite literally a mental illness in the clinical, medical sense.

I havenít.
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:04 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
They generally don't actually, literally hear the voice as though it's a hallucination or a hidden speaker in their room. They hear it "in their heart".


And?
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:05 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I havenít.
Huh. When you said:

Quote:
Anyone who believes God speaks to them, reveals himself to them in actions in the world are suffering from at least a sympton of many mental illnesses as described by the DSM. The DSM however attempts to sweep that under the carpet because of how powerful religion still is in the USA.
...I took it like that.
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:06 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I repeat: being mistaken about something is not the same as being insane.
I also repeat: Being mistaken isn't the same as being deluded that fantasy is reality and living your life under the influence of the beliefs that delusion creates.
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:07 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And?
It's not a symptom of mental illness, then. It's not medically a delusion or a hallucination. It's an environmentally caused false belief that thoughts and feeling can have an external, paranormal source.
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:08 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You're either extraordinarily good at never falling for wishful thinking, or fantastically lacking in self-awareness about when it's happened in hindsight.
So what? Care to respond to the "But" part, that's the most important/relevant part of my reply.
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:09 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
They generally don't actually, literally hear the voice as though it's a hallucination or a hidden speaker in their room. They hear it "in their heart".
Hearts have ears
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:13 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Hearts have ears
Ha! I'm sure you've heard the phrase "Listen with your heart" before.
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:15 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Huh. When you said:







...I took it like that.

Then you obviously took it wrong. My points in this thread have been clearly stated so I am at a loss to understand your confusion. I've not made many posts so perhaps go back to my posts and reread them so we can have a discussion about what I have pointed out and stated?
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:20 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It's not a symptom of mental illness, then. It's not medically a delusion or a hallucination. It's an environmentally caused false belief that thoughts and feeling can have an external, paranormal source.
I'll ask you this question as well. It relates to using the word "insane" in a non-literal, non-medical sense. . .
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
You've never ever said anything like "I could kill that whatever"? If not, at least you're aware many people do and it's quite a common saying. But we both know the word "kill" isn't meant literally - right?.
Wonder if I'll get a reply that actually answers the question?
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:23 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It's not a symptom of mental illness, then. It's not medically a delusion or a hallucination. It's an environmentally caused false belief that thoughts and feeling can have an external, paranormal source.


Still not understanding your point, if you hear a voice in your head that is not your own that should be treated as a symptom of a possible illness no matter who you claim that voice is. Yet using the DSM as the bible of what is and is not an illness or symptom of illness would hold that when that voice is labeled as god it stops being a symptom of illness. I hold that is because of the majority religious beliefs in the culture and society in which the DSM is used it is expedient to ignore symptoms that are considered part of religious beliefs, such as God talks to people.
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:28 AM   #387
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If I heard a voice in my head (or heart) that wasn’t mine, the very first thing I’d do would be to seek medical help. If they're sane why don't voice in head (or heart) hearers do this? Isn't it the obviously sane thing to do?
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Old 12th January 2019, 04:21 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It's not a symptom of mental illness, then. It's not medically a delusion or a hallucination. It's an environmentally caused false belief that thoughts and feeling can have an external, paranormal source.
Can thoughts and feelings ever have any external source? It should not be possible for brains to have any thought that is not internally generated by biochemical reactions. External information (environment, conditioning, indoctrination) might interact with your brain, but essentially, being atheistic or theistic can't really be a choice we make - it's a byproduct of our pre-existing "natural" inclinations combined with the influence of programming.

I'm not sure I believe this 100 percent, but it's a more consistent theory than believing in a "me" that transcends nature and nurture.
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Old 12th January 2019, 04:25 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
If I heard a voice in my head (or heart) that wasnít mine, the very first thing Iíd do would be to seek medical help. If they're sane why don't voice in head (or heart) hearers do this? Isn't it the obviously sane thing to do?
Not if they believe that there is some plausible external source. That will be a function of their natural inclinations, combined with environment.

ETA: I'm sure this is a cliche, but one theory is expounded by Julian Jaynes in his 1976 speculative work, The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.

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Old 12th January 2019, 06:17 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The starting point of religions wasn't delusion. They started as attempts to make sense of the world and our place in it.

I don't see this as an either-or proposition. Sure, religions would definitely have evolved out of people trying to make sense of the world. On the other hand, surely the historical link with mystical experiences is obvious?

Think Abraham's one-on-ones with Yahweh and his minions. Think Moses's visions and commandments. Think Jesus's visions in that desert, as well as his visions of God and heaven. Think Mohammed's interactions with Gibrael in that cave. Think Rumi and Hafiz and Shams Tabriz, and other assorted Sufis. Think the Buddha's Nirvanic realizations. And so on, and on, and on, many times over.

Sure, much of this is legend. Sure, much of this is overlaid with outright lies and fabrications. Nevertheless, it seems to me that the core, so to say, of most religions is mystical visions. That is the core around which the rest of the religious material seems to coalesce around.

Not necessarily miracles per se. Because not all religions are predicated on miracles. Miracles certainly are central to Christianity, but not to a great many other religions.

But it seems to me that mystical visions is something that most religions are based on. That seems to be the essential, central point to most religions.


Quote:
That ancient people hadn't developed scientific methods to do that in the manner we approve is hardly something we can fault them for. Being mistaken is not the same as being delusional.

You may have misunderstood my point.

Those who're swallowing Abraham's (or Moses's, or Jesus's, or Mohammed's, or the Buddha's, or Rumi's) accounts of their mystical visions, and their teachings based on those visions, these people aren't the ones who I'm suggesting are deluded. They are many things -- gullible, and/or ignorant, and/or dishonest, and/or susceptible to peer presseure -- but not deluded, at least not the vast majority of these followers and believers.

Nor is there any question of faulting them for this, obviously. I doubt most of us here would have fared any better back in those times.

But Abraham himself? Moses himself? Jesus himself? Mohammed himself? And so on, through the ages? These people, to the extent that they were not lying their heads off -- and to the extent that the accounts of their visions, on which these religions are based, aren't wholly ficititious -- to that extent, surely they're delusional? Either that, or else they're truly privy to some kind of mystical revelation? Either the one or the other (to the extent these accounts aren't simply manufactured out of whole cloth)?

It seems to me this epilepsy thing that some other posters here have brought up might offer a reasonable explanation for these alleged mystical visions.



And of course, it isn't the visions themselves that are delusional. What is delusional is conflating these visions with reality. One poster here has spoken of her apparently divine visions, which later on turned out to be simply a case of epilepsy, simply a mis-firing of neurons. I suppose drugs can be administered to treat these hallucinations, but my point is, having these hallucinations isn't in itself delusional, what is delusional is imagining -- in the absence of clear evidence -- that the visions are 'real'.
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:57 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
I don't see this as an either-or proposition. Sure, religions would definitely have evolved out of people trying to make sense of the world. On the other hand, surely the historical link with mystical experiences is obvious?

Think Abraham's one-on-ones with Yahweh and his minions. Think Moses's visions and commandments. Think Jesus's visions in that desert, as well as his visions of God and heaven. Think Mohammed's interactions with Gibrael in that cave. Think Rumi and Hafiz and Shams Tabriz, and other assorted Sufis. Think the Buddha's Nirvanic realizations. And so on, and on, and on, many times over.

Sure, much of this is legend. Sure, much of this is overlaid with outright lies and fabrications. Nevertheless, it seems to me that the core, so to say, of most religions is mystical visions. That is the core around which the rest of the religious material seems to coalesce around.

Not necessarily miracles per se. Because not all religions are predicated on miracles. Miracles certainly are central to Christianity, but not to a great many other religions.

But it seems to me that mystical visions is something that most religions are based on. That seems to be the essential, central point to most religions.





You may have misunderstood my point.

Those who're swallowing Abraham's (or Moses's, or Jesus's, or Mohammed's, or the Buddha's, or Rumi's) accounts of their mystical visions, and their teachings based on those visions, these people aren't the ones who I'm suggesting are deluded. They are many things -- gullible, and/or ignorant, and/or dishonest, and/or susceptible to peer presseure -- but not deluded, at least not the vast majority of these followers and believers.

Nor is there any question of faulting them for this, obviously. I doubt most of us here would have fared any better back in those times.

But Abraham himself? Moses himself? Jesus himself? Mohammed himself? And so on, through the ages? These people, to the extent that they were not lying their heads off -- and to the extent that the accounts of their visions, on which these religions are based, aren't wholly ficititious -- to that extent, surely they're delusional? Either that, or else they're truly privy to some kind of mystical revelation? Either the one or the other (to the extent these accounts aren't simply manufactured out of whole cloth)?

It seems to me this epilepsy thing that some other posters here have brought up might offer a reasonable explanation for these alleged mystical visions.



And of course, it isn't the visions themselves that are delusional. What is delusional is conflating these visions with reality. One poster here has spoken of her apparently divine visions, which later on turned out to be simply a case of epilepsy, simply a mis-firing of neurons. I suppose drugs can be administered to treat these hallucinations, but my point is, having these hallucinations isn't in itself delusional, what is delusional is imagining -- in the absence of clear evidence -- that the visions are 'real'.
You seem to be taking the accounts of Moses, Abraham, etc at face value. There is no evidence those individuals even existed, much less had the experiences other people later ascribed to them. Religion isn't even built on iffy mental events, it's built on stories of iffy mental events. How one could expect to diagnose through hearsay anecdote the mental health of probably-fictional characters eludes me.
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:59 AM   #392
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As for hearing voices, auditory hallucinations while on the verge of sleep are extremely common. Has anyone reading this truly never thought they could hear a noise, a ringing phone someone speaking their name, etc while dropping off to sleep?
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Old 12th January 2019, 08:19 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You seem to be taking the accounts of Moses, Abraham, etc at face value. There is no evidence those individuals even existed, much less had the experiences other people later ascribed to them. Religion isn't even built on iffy mental events, it's built on stories of iffy mental events. How one could expect to diagnose through hearsay anecdote the mental health of probably-fictional characters eludes me.

Think, then, of some more contemporary version of this kind of thing. For instance, those narcotic-fueled visions (and books) of Carlos Castaneda. Of course, even here one should be careful about taking these things at face value, as the man may simply have been lying his head off. On the other hand, it is possible, perhaps probable, that the visions were real -- that he did really hallucinate under the influence of those indigenous narcotic concoctions. What he was deluded about is in thinking his visions corresponded with the real world (or so we conclude, in the absence of evidence).

I don't think more than a small handful, if that, take Castaneda's accounts seriously: but it is easy enough to imagine how a whole religion may grow around this kind of thing, right?

I agree, accounts of the distant (perhaps mythical) past may well have been simply legend, simply fiction: but we have plenty of (relatively) more recent accounts of this kind. Sufi literature, as well as accounts of Christian mystics of (relatively) far more recent vintage than the respective prophets who got these religions going -- as well as similar accounts from other cultures, that I won't take up space listing here.



It is one thing to speculate that some god creates thunder, and quite another to claim that one has seen this god, and seen him produce thunder from his divine backside. It is the latter kind of declaration that is more dramatic, and ultimately probably more influential. Probably such dramatic visions are what religions are actually based on -- else why the common motif of mysticism across religions?

Of course, this kind of declaration may be an actual lie, or they may be the babbling of madmen. Sure, why not? But of course, people probably would know to take a full-on madman's ramblings with a pinch of salt. What people would probably find easier to swallow would be alleged mystical visions from otherwise sane people.

And, it seems to me -- taking forward the argument presented by some posters here, in these two threads -- that epilepsy may provide one explanation, one basis, for these visions in otherwise sane (and honest) people.


Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
As for hearing voices, auditory hallucinations while on the verge of sleep are extremely common. Has anyone reading this truly never thought they could hear a noise, a ringing phone someone speaking their name, etc while dropping off to sleep?

Sure. For that matter, think of dreams! As well as hallucinations while under the influence of narcotics. Enough people at enough times have taken dreams, and narcotic-fueled visions, seriously.

We know, today, to rule these out. But where we come across visions where these don't seem to apply, that is where we might come across a stumbling block, something we don't necessarily understand. We don't jump to accepting them, obviously, but nor do we necessarily understand them, know the whys and wherefores of them.

Epilepsy, apparently -- see the research as well as the personal accounts outlined very sketchily in the other thread (by other posters) -- can help provide a rational explanation here. Or so it seems to me.
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Old 12th January 2019, 09:14 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Still not understanding your point, if you hear a voice in your head that is not your own that should be treated as a symptom of a possible illness no matter who you claim that voice is. Yet using the DSM as the bible of what is and is not an illness or symptom of illness would hold that when that voice is labeled as god it stops being a symptom of illness. I hold that is because of the majority religious beliefs in the culture and society in which the DSM is used it is expedient to ignore symptoms that are considered part of religious beliefs, such as God talks to people.
A headache CAN be a symptom of a brain tumor, but if the cause of the headache is known (a hangover, dehydration, etc,) it's no longer considered a symptom of a possible brain tumor in that context. That's how symptoms and diagnostic criterias work - the symptom has to be "not attributable" to something else to not get written off as though it doesn't exist.

For example:

Quote:
To receive a diagnosis of conversion disorder, a person must experience altered motor function or a change in their senses. The symptoms cannot be attributed to any medical condition or other mental illness,...
eta: or:

Quote:
According to DSM-IV, such patients should be diagnosed with depressive disorder not otherwise specified (NOS) if the development of the symptoms is not attributable to a stressful event or with adjustment disorder if the symptoms follow a stressor.
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Old 12th January 2019, 02:26 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
As for hearing voices, auditory hallucinations while on the verge of sleep are extremely common. Has anyone reading this truly never thought they could hear a noise, a ringing phone someone speaking their name, etc while dropping off to sleep?
Truthfully, never. But I have learnt in recent years I seem to be "non neural typical" or as I would usually say it "I'm even weirder than I thought I was".
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Old 12th January 2019, 02:29 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
A headache CAN be a symptom of a brain tumor, but if the cause of the headache is known (a hangover, dehydration, etc,) it's no longer considered a symptom of a possible brain tumor in that context. That's how symptoms and diagnostic criterias work - the symptom has to be "not attributable" to something else to not get written off as though it doesn't exist.



For example:







eta: or:
Sorry Kellyb, this again seems to be a "and?" I have no idea of what counterpoint you think this makes to the post of mine you quoted. It indeed seems to be agreeing with me?
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Old 12th January 2019, 02:55 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Sorry Kellyb, this again seems to be a "and?" I have no idea of what counterpoint you think this makes to the post of mine you quoted. It indeed seems to be agreeing with me?
It explains why this:

Quote:
Anyone who believes God speaks to them, reveals himself to them in actions in the world are suffering from at least a sympton of many mental illnesses as described by the DSM. The DSM however attempts to sweep that under the carpet because of how powerful religion still is in the USA.
...is a bit off.
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Old 12th January 2019, 03:02 PM   #398
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I question the unstated assumption that humans are predominantly rational in the first place. Also, I can see faith as a possible reaction to some trauma, with the believer not focusing on the myth as much as the need met. I also note that people will often be overwhelmed and seduced by the first comprehensive explanatory framework they meet on their own as young adults, or the one first learned as children. As explanatory frameworks go, science offers no meaning, no personal guidance, no everlasting life and ultimate solution for grief, and no rules for creating social cohesion. Added to that, to derive ethics from human first principles can seem a poor substitute for a comfortably authoritative divine edict. So it takes work and a willingness to lose all the creature comforts of faith to realize that Santa isn't real. I do not think explanatory frameworks, in the form of the major faiths, unlike some other sources of hand-waving, are a sign of insanity.

Yet, that deriving ethics from divine edicts equally leads to splintered opinions and a need for majority consensus rather than uniform humming harmony is often forgotten. This leads to single individuals or institutions claiming to have the ultimate zinger perspective, and it is time to bow or heads roll. I consider this, if you will, total raving insanity induced by hubris, a side effect of rubbing elbows with the gods.
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Old 12th January 2019, 04:16 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It explains why this:







...is a bit off.
But it doesn't.
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Old 12th January 2019, 05:50 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But it doesn't.
But it does. Nothing's being "swept under the carpet".

The fact that people are told and thus commonly believe that their own thoughts and feelings can come from god, means that the perception that god is communicating with them really is generally NOT a symptom of neurological malfunction (aka, "mental illness"). It's a case of mis-attribution, not hallucination.
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