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Tags Mike Pompeo , religion and politics , Trump administration

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Old 29th December 2018, 05:03 PM   #41
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yup, I think This Is The End has summed it up.

when talking about "the Rapture" in these terms, like you, I would think that's supposed to be imminent, or at least within a lifetime.

believing in a day of judgement is not the same.
Since when does the Bible say on the Day of Judgement believers will be raptured and the rest of us not?

Hint: The Rapture is not in the Bible.

I'm pretty sure there is something in Revelations about Jesus returning and ruling over the Earth for a 1,000 years or something, but the details in my memory are fuzzy.
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Old 29th December 2018, 05:04 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And you know this, how?
Well, if they believe in the rapture at all they have to either believe it's going to happen or else it's already happened. There aren't a lot of options unless you're going to credit rapture-believing evangelicals with theories about multiverses and quantum time.
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Old 29th December 2018, 05:10 PM   #43
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Sigh, I have to look up everything for you guys.

This survey looks decent:

60% is not the vast majority or whatever the initial post in this exchange said.

Quote:
Six in 10 evangelical leaders, or 61 percent, say they believe in the Rapture of the Church compared to 32 percent who say the End Times doesn't happen exactly this way, according to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life survey.

The survey was based on responses from nearly 2,200 evangelical leaders at the Third Lausanne Congress on World Evangelization – a global gathering of 4,500 evangelical leaders from over 190 nations that was held last fall in Cape Town, South Africa.
Apparently in sub-Saharan-Africa the number is 82%.
Quote:
Evangelical leaders from sub-Saharan Africa were the most likely to believe in the Rapture, with 82 percent subscribing to this End Times belief.
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Old 29th December 2018, 05:14 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Well, if they believe in the rapture at all they have to either believe it's going to happen or else it's already happened. There aren't a lot of options unless you're going to credit rapture-believing evangelicals with theories about multiverses and quantum time.
I think you lost something in translation.

I don't care what they believe about 'when' it's going to happen. The Rapture is a very specific event and again, not in the Bible AFAIK.
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Old 29th December 2018, 05:53 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Sigh, I have to look up everything for you guys.
Or just read what was already looked up for you since that's already been cited.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
60% is not the vast majority or whatever the initial post in this exchange said.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger
But Rapture believers? I would have thought that's an extreme element within the Evangelical crowd. Perhaps I should reconsider.
So what do you think now?
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Old 29th December 2018, 06:00 PM   #46
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So much cross talk all over interpreting 60%.

I didn't see sphensic posted the link already.

Then I replied to this:
Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
The vast majority of evangelicals believe the rapture will happen at some point in the future.
TITE thought the issue was over whether the belief was in one's lifetime or not. That was not the issue. "The vast majority" was the issue.

Next RY said TITE was right. But somewhere upthread RY's issue was whether the Rapture was an extreme fringe.

As for Evangelicals, clearly it's not the fringe among them. As for Christians I'd say it's a fringe but the Evangelicals are rapidly a growing sect.


Bottom line 60% is not a vast majority. And I suppose it's also not the small fringe of a group.
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Old 29th December 2018, 07:47 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What makes you think the sort of person who would get raptured would even have any stuff you'd want? DVD box set of "The Waltons", perhaps, if they even have a DVD player. No alcohol, no sex toys, no porn. Possibly not even soda. They're not people who have Grand Theft Auto, a freezer bag full of coke, and a collection of exciting leather costumes is what I'm getting at. These are people who are too boring to get into Hell.
No, but some of them are likely to have some useful stuff. My wife's ex was, for example, a Jehovah's Witnless (really really into the rapture!), and aside from requiring that they wear suits and some of that stuff, they also apparently were really down on rusty cars, as well as weird foreign and non-middle-class stuff, so all the JW's you meet have nice reliable late model cars. When they all get swept up you can house your chickens in a fleet of late model minivans, and go corn cruising in a Grand Marquis. Taxi drivers love these things. Not to mention nice clean refrigerators and washing machines and stuff. I'd be inclined to sell it all cheap and buy camera equipment and power tools that I don't need, but down your way you're welcome to spend yours on sex toys and porn.

Just like Groucho who said he wouldn't want to join a club that would have him as a member, I figure the raffish underclass should make out like bandits when the saints go marching out.
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Old 29th December 2018, 08:14 PM   #48
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I could really dig some old cast iron stuff. Griswold is awesome. Enamel is okay, too -- I like Le Creuset and Staub. Knives: I'm partial to Wusthof, but there's some really nice Japanese stuff I'd consider.

I mean, since you're being lifted into Heaven anyway.
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Old 29th December 2018, 11:23 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What makes you think the sort of person who would get raptured would even have any stuff you'd want? DVD box set of "The Waltons", perhaps, if they even have a DVD player. No alcohol, no sex toys, no porn. Possibly not even soda. They're not people who have Grand Theft Auto, a freezer bag full of coke, and a collection of exciting leather costumes is what I'm getting at. These are people who are too boring to get into Hell.
I dunno about that. Our local mega-church evangelicals in their 25 room castle knockoffs have six car garages that hold oodles of interesting ****. ****, a local pastor just resigned in disgrace due to a hookers and blow incident. I'm beginning to think these folks are a bunch of phonies.
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Old 29th December 2018, 11:40 PM   #50
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I doubt that most megachurch attendees would qualify for the Rapture.
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Old 29th December 2018, 11:41 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I doubt that most megachurch attendees would qualify for the Rapture.
No one does.
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Old 29th December 2018, 11:54 PM   #52
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Well, I hope we're not all mistaken. I'd hate to be all ready to kick back and enjoy a cool cuppa left-behind brew and suddenly be informed that owing to a clerical error I'm off to strum with the seraphim.
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Old 30th December 2018, 12:43 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I think you lost something in translation.

I don't care what they believe about 'when' it's going to happen. The Rapture is a very specific event and again, not in the Bible AFAIK.
I thought you were arguing with the bolded bit of the post you quoted. It seemed a silly thing to argue, but I've read your posts on religious topics before so I thought I'd ask for clarification.

As to Biblicicity, not every denomination of Christianity insists on pulling all parts of its theology solely from the Bible, even the branches that revere the book to an excessive degree. In fact, very few sorts of Christianity are solely Bible-based, there's just not enough material in there to supply an entire theology. You need the collected writings and commentaries of other people on what they've read in the Bible, then the commentaries on the commentaries, and eventually it builds up into an established tradition and full-fledged mythos. Since very few sorts of Christianity claim to be solely Bible-based this isn't a problem for anyone else.

Other things non-Biblical but mainstream: Satan being an individual personality, angels being humanoids with wings, and dead humans becoming angels. And Tolkien never wrote that his Elves had pointed ears, but you don't see many adaptations omitting them.
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Old 30th December 2018, 12:54 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I thought you were arguing with the bolded bit of the post you quoted. It seemed a silly thing to argue, but I've read your posts on religious topics before so I thought I'd ask for clarification.

As to Biblicicity, not every denomination of Christianity insists on pulling all parts of its theology solely from the Bible, even the branches that revere the book to an excessive degree. In fact, very few sorts of Christianity are solely Bible-based, there's just not enough material in there to supply an entire theology. You need the collected writings and commentaries of other people on what they've read in the Bible, then the commentaries on the commentaries, and eventually it builds up into an established tradition and full-fledged mythos. Since very few sorts of Christianity claim to be solely Bible-based this isn't a problem for anyone else.

Other things non-Biblical but mainstream: Satan being an individual personality, angels being humanoids with wings, and dead humans becoming angels. And Tolkien never wrote that his Elves had pointed ears, but you don't see many adaptations omitting them.
I was arguing with "vast majority". I'll have to go back and look at what 'bold' you are talking about.

Re inconsistency among Christians, choir here.


Edited to add: that was ThisIsTheEnd's bold. I can see the confusion, I added my bold to the quote but left the other bold in.
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Old 30th December 2018, 02:50 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I think you lost something in translation.

I don't care what they believe about 'when' it's going to happen. The Rapture is a very specific event and again, not in the Bible AFAIK.
What's it got to do about it being in the bible or not?
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Old 30th December 2018, 02:56 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Since when does the Bible say on the Day of Judgement believers will be raptured and the rest of us not?
It doesn't.

Quote:

Hint: The Rapture is not in the Bible.
It is.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
... In fact, very few sorts of Christianity are solely Bible-based, there's just not enough material in there to supply an entire theology. You need the collected writings and commentaries of other people on what they've read in the Bible, then the commentaries on the commentaries, and eventually it builds up into an established tradition and full-fledged mythos. Since very few sorts of Christianity claim to be solely Bible-based this isn't a problem for anyone else.
Sola scriptura is commonplace doctrine amongst Protestant denominations. No idea why you think there are very few.

Quote:
Other things non-Biblical but mainstream: Satan being an individual personality.
Matthew 4:1-11

Quote:
...angels being humanoids with wings, and dead humans becoming angels...
Not doctrines of any Evangelical churches I've encountered.
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Old 30th December 2018, 07:56 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Can we have their stuff?

Not really.

Oh, one could go through the formal process of writing out a contract
specifying that on the date of the rapture you get their car, house, money,
and all sorts of other property. But show them this document and they
won't sign it. They're just going through the motions of their religion ó
I think they call it witnessing of their deeply held beliefs ó similar to self
flagellation with nerf whips.
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Old 30th December 2018, 08:12 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
It doesn't.


It is.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17



Sola scriptura is commonplace doctrine amongst Protestant denominations. No idea why you think there are very few.


Matthew 4:1-11


Not doctrines of any Evangelical churches I've encountered.
Sola scriptura still relies on the scriptures being interpreted by people and surprisingly you still find the same mix and match approach as you would in say a catholic church. All that differs is that they will claim that X means Y because that is what they want it to mean and will quote a Bible source, whereas other Christians can say X means Y because the church said so.

In other words what ever source they claim is infallible will support what ever they want.
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Old 30th December 2018, 08:43 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Sola scriptura is commonplace doctrine amongst Protestant denominations. No idea why you think there are very few.
Probably because I haven't encountered many Protestant denominations who don't draw anything from Martin Luther or John Calvin. Salvation through grace alone and predestination are two theological beliefs invented outside the Bible, although they based their theories on selected quotations from the Bible. That doesn't make them purely Biblical. It's outside extrapolation.

Good luck finding Protestants who don't draw anything from Protestantism! Even the really weird later branches like the charismatics and snake-handlers had their own radical theologians and even prophets.
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Old 30th December 2018, 08:52 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
No, but some of them are likely to have some useful stuff. My wife's ex was, for example, a Jehovah's Witnless (really really into the rapture!), and aside from requiring that they wear suits and some of that stuff, they also apparently were really down on rusty cars, as well as weird foreign and non-middle-class stuff, so all the JW's you meet have nice reliable late model cars. When they all get swept up you can house your chickens in a fleet of late model minivans, and go corn cruising in a Grand Marquis. Taxi drivers love these things. Not to mention nice clean refrigerators and washing machines and stuff. I'd be inclined to sell it all cheap and buy camera equipment and power tools that I don't need, but down your way you're welcome to spend yours on sex toys and porn.

Just like Groucho who said he wouldn't want to join a club that would have him as a member, I figure the raffish underclass should make out like bandits when the saints go marching out.
Highlighted: No, JWs definitively and vocally disbelieve "the rapture." They do believe a specific number (144k) will serve in heaven after they die. At Armageddon, the current wicked will be killed, the faithful will live, and the previous dead will be resurrected. Then a 1000 year test, and the failures die and the faithful will live forever on Earth.

Nope, no Rapture for them.

The rest of your post seems more like generic hatred which may be tied more to your ex than JWs.

For the record, I was raised a JW and bailed when I was 23. JWs have some crazy beliefs, but the Rapture is not one of them.
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Old 30th December 2018, 09:32 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
No one does.
In Rapture movies, unborn babies get raptured straight out of the womb.
Are you suggesting that this is incorrect?
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Old 30th December 2018, 10:16 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
In Rapture movies, unborn babies get raptured straight out of the womb.
CGI or . . ?

Quote:
Are you suggesting that this is incorrect?
I'm thinking no, although I wouldn't have been opposed to Kirk Cameron getting a pre-birth rapture.
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Old 30th December 2018, 10:27 AM   #63
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I thought the rapture people have their own bible including commentary, the Scofield Reference BibleWP.

This Pompeo character struck me as a scary brute even before knowing that he is into this stuff, but the good thing is that he will be fired by Trump long before he can do any serious harm and/or Jesus comes back.
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Old 30th December 2018, 11:05 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
In Rapture movies, unborn babies get raptured straight out of the womb.
What happens to the placenta? And do the unborn babies get to grow to adulthood in the afterlife, or do they have to just flop around as fetuses forever? Or worse, do they get implanted into the wombs of heaven residents who just have to be pregnant for eternity? Or do they give birth to them, and then they age? The main problem I have with theories of the afterlife is that nobody ever seems to really sit down and think out the details. It all gets very silly very quickly when you get into the details.
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Old 30th December 2018, 11:16 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The main problem I have with theories of the afterlife is that nobody ever seems to really sit down and think out the details. It all gets very silly very quickly when you get into the details.
I like to consider advancing dementia and the after life. As I age and my cognitive abilities decline do they show up in my after life copy of me as the disappear from me? How many newcomers to heaven show up with only the ability to remember where they left their* worldly car keys but have no other recollection of who they are?

* maybe there* is a copy of me in heaven right now that gets there/their right the first time every time!

* maybe there is a copy of me in heaven right now that remembers not to repeat a joke they just told.
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Old 30th December 2018, 11:25 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Probably because I haven't encountered many Protestant denominations who don't draw anything from Martin Luther or John Calvin. Salvation through grace alone and predestination are two theological beliefs invented outside the Bible, although they based their theories on selected quotations from the Bible. That doesn't make them purely Biblical.It's outside extrapolation.
What aspects of either doctrine are extra-biblical?
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Old 30th December 2018, 11:38 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Since when does the Bible say on the Day of Judgement believers will be raptured and the rest of us not?

Hint: The Rapture is not in the Bible.

I'm pretty sure there is something in Revelations about Jesus returning and ruling over the Earth for a 1,000 years or something, but the details in my memory are fuzzy.
It doesn't. It is a 19th century apocalyptic fantasy that repeatedly fails. Our own member Elwin Garland just failed since his three days of darkness failed to happen yesterday.
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Old 30th December 2018, 11:42 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
What aspects of either doctrine are extra-biblical?
They are based on subjective interpretation of particular verses which can be interpreted in a contradictory manner by others without either necessarily contradicting the verses themselves.

The final doctrines are not strictly biblical.
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Old 30th December 2018, 11:53 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
They are based on subjective interpretation of particular verses which can be interpreted in a contradictory manner by others without either necessarily contradicting the verses themselves.

The final doctrines are not strictly biblical.
Great. Now answer the question.
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Old 30th December 2018, 12:15 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Great. Now answer the question.
They did. There's no "this is what predestination is and how it works" section in the Bible. There's no bit that says "the Catholics are wrong, and Martin Luther is right". It's outside the text itself. The only way a religion could be solely based on a single book is if every adherent reads the book separately and they never talk about it, sharing their own interpretations.
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Old 30th December 2018, 12:15 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The main problem I have with theories of the afterlife is that nobody ever seems to really sit down and think out the details. It all gets very silly very quickly when you get into the details.

I sometimes think of a young woman with a six month old baby changing nappies forever. Or does one not eat or crap in Heaven?



Not eat? No bacon? Let me outta here.


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Old 30th December 2018, 12:24 PM   #72
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
I sometimes think of a young woman with a six month old baby changing nappies forever. Or does one not eat or crap in Heaven?
Digestion would be a big question. We need intestinal bacteria to have functioning digestion. So either they come to the afterlife with us, or else God has to re-engineer human bodies to either not need to eat, or be able to digest without flora. I can't see him going to the trouble to invent us in his own image with all that fiddly work only to stick our brains into robot bodies for 99.99999999999999999999999% of our existence instead. But on the other hand, I can't see the point of even having an afterlife if it has to so completely replicate original life that it becomes indistinguishable. If I were God I'd set everyone to reincarnation just to buy myself enough time to think what to do next.
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Old 30th December 2018, 01:02 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What happens to the placenta? And do the unborn babies get to grow to adulthood in the afterlife, or do they have to just flop around as fetuses forever? Or worse, do they get implanted into the wombs of heaven residents who just have to be pregnant for eternity? Or do they give birth to them, and then they age? The main problem I have with theories of the afterlife is that nobody ever seems to really sit down and think out the details. It all gets very silly very quickly when you get into the details.
I can answer all these questions in a perfectly logical and straightforward... oh look!
There's a squirrel over there!
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Old 30th December 2018, 02:54 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What happens to the placenta? And do the unborn babies get to grow to adulthood in the afterlife, or do they have to just flop around as fetuses forever? Or worse, do they get implanted into the wombs of heaven residents who just have to be pregnant for eternity? Or do they give birth to them, and then they age? The main problem I have with theories of the afterlife is that nobody ever seems to really sit down and think out the details. It all gets very silly very quickly when you get into the details.
The Medieval answer was that apparently one was given the age of 30.


I can't remember where I saw this.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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Old 30th December 2018, 10:12 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What's it got to do about it being in the bible or not?
Because the Evangelicals are into the literal Bible translation. At least that's why they are such evolution theory deniers. They're very big on Jesus' sacrifice and all that.

I'm surprised they would latch onto something not in the Bible.
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Old 30th December 2018, 10:17 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
It is.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
....
Guess I haven't been keeping up.
Bible Gateway
Quote:
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 New International Version (NIV)
15 According to the Lordís word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
King James Version:
Quote:
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 King James Version (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
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Old 30th December 2018, 10:39 PM   #77
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Religion. Weird. I'm OK not having "the answers"...or making them up to fit my emotional needs. I guess I just don't need it emotionally.
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Old 31st December 2018, 06:26 AM   #78
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I now know there are "Dispensational premillennialist" Xians out there.
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Old 31st December 2018, 06:51 AM   #79
sphenisc
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
I now know there are "Dispensational premillennialist" Xians out there.
The question is for how long?
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Old 31st December 2018, 07:22 AM   #80
Darat
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Because the Evangelicals are into the literal Bible translation. At least that's why they are such evolution theory deniers. They're very big on Jesus' sacrifice and all that.



I'm surprised they would latch onto something not in the Bible.
But they are not, they are into their interpretation of whichever version of the bible they subscribe to.
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