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Tags Mike Pompeo , religion and politics , Trump administration

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Old 31st December 2018, 09:13 AM   #81
sylvan8798
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
I've a friend who's a rapturist and has kept me up-to-date on the relevant details, perhaps I can be of assistance?
1) One radio show nutcase I listen too always mentions (gleefully) how there will be planes flying and the pilot will suddenly disappear (having been raptured out). In those cases, will he be beamed out a la Star Trek, or will a hole be made in the side of the plane?

2) Likewise, will those who are in their cars or houses get a warning to go outside? Or are the trumpets supposed to alert all those who qualify?

3) Presumably, Jesus will appear in Israel first. Will it be something like Santa Clause, where he goes all around the world collecting people?

4) When the raptured rise into the clouds to meet Jesus, what elevation will that be? It gets cold up there, and there is less oxygen - will they need coats and oxygen tanks? Won't it be inconvenient if they are naked?

5) Why would be people be raptured naked when God is so prudish?

6) After the clouds/Jesus reunion, what next? Will everyone be zipped around the earth to some common cloud location? What about after that?

7) How do they get to the place with the gold streets and the wall with the gates and gemstones?

8) Others have asked about the unborn - given the number of miscarriages and abortions already being direct admits, there must be a lot of unaccompanied minors in heaven. Who is raising all those children? Or do they just arrive as angels?
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Old 31st December 2018, 01:05 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
1) One radio show nutcase I listen too always mentions (gleefully) how there will be planes flying and the pilot will suddenly disappear (having been raptured out). In those cases, will he be beamed out a la Star Trek, or will a hole be made in the side of the plane? . . .
While the logical traps and holes in rapture theology are fun to consider, the real point here is that the current US Secretary of State appears to believe this stuff, and that is frightening.
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Old 31st December 2018, 01:48 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
While the logical traps and holes in rapture theology are fun to consider, the real point here is that the current US Secretary of State appears to believe this stuff, and that is frightening.
You think it's just one? Can't find Mike Pence using the word rapture explicitly but if you look in to his views and influences it's pretty hard not to escape the conclusion that he's a rapture believer. And even if he doesn't believe in the rapture or has one of the tamer interpretations of it, he still has the apocalyptic millennial views.

This rapture believing organization runs the weekly White House Bible study group. Ten of Trumps cabinet members support this organization.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43534724
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Old 31st December 2018, 04:34 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
1) One radio show nutcase I listen too always mentions (gleefully) how there will be planes flying and the pilot will suddenly disappear (having been raptured out). In those cases, will he be beamed out a la Star Trek, or will a hole be made in the side of the plane?
Yes.

Quote:
2) Likewise, will those who are in their cars or houses get a warning to go outside? Or are the trumpets supposed to alert all those who qualify?
"No one knows the day or the time. The angels in heaven don't know, and the Son himself doesn't know." - Jesus H Christ

Quote:
3) Presumably, Jesus will appear in Israel first. Will it be something like Santa Clause, where he goes all around the world collecting people?
Don't be silly, Santa is a myth!

Quote:
4) When the raptured rise into the clouds to meet Jesus, what elevation will that be? It gets cold up there, and there is less oxygen - will they need coats and oxygen tanks? Won't it be inconvenient if they are naked?
You are assuming their physical bodies will rise...

Quote:
5) Why would be people be raptured naked when God is so prudish?
God a prude? No, quite the opposite. He will enjoy seeing your naked body.

Hebrews 4:13-15
13 No one can hide from God. His eyes see everything...

Quote:
6) After the clouds/Jesus reunion, what next? Will everyone be zipped around the earth to some common cloud location? What about after that?
That's the bit they don't tell you about. But...

Matthew 13:30
"Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn."

Quote:
7) How do they get to the place with the gold streets and the wall with the gates and gemstones?
You mean the slaughterhouse?

Quote:
8) Others have asked about the unborn - given the number of miscarriages and abortions already being direct admits, there must be a lot of unaccompanied minors in heaven. Who is raising all those children? Or do they just arrive as angels?
Not just miscarriages and abortions - even fertilized cells qualify! But not turned into angels of course - that would be silly.
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Old 31st December 2018, 07:18 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post

You are assuming their physical bodies will rise...
Oh yikes. Does that mean the rest of us are going to have to clean up the corpses, or are we going to have to fend off the zombies?
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Old 31st December 2018, 07:41 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
You think it's just one?
No, you're right that these people are all over. I guess SoS bothers me a bit more though because that job usually* goes to a relatively sober and well-grounded person with our nation's long-term interest at heart. If there's some clown in that position as our diplomatic face to the world who thinks the world is only gonna be here another 10 or 20 years, then I grow even more concerned.

*Bracing for all the historians to bury me in examples of truly moronic and destructive Secretaries of State...
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Old 31st December 2018, 10:18 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
If there's some clown in that position as our diplomatic face to the world who thinks the world is only gonna be here another 10 or 20 years, then I grow even more concerned.
From what I hear, we're not in the "last days" we're in the "last hours". Or maybe it was the "last minutes." Who knows? They seem fairly gleeful about the prospects, however.
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Old 31st December 2018, 10:22 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Oh yikes. Does that mean the rest of us are going to have to clean up the corpses, or are we going to have to fend off the zombies?
Well I was totally given to understand that the elect would rise in their current bodies and have them transformed in the air to the bodies they wished they had had at some younger and better time. Albeit I was not aware of the clothing issues (or lack thereof ).
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Old 31st December 2018, 11:46 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
Well I was totally given to understand that the elect would rise in their current bodies and have them transformed in the air to the bodies they wished they had had at some younger and better time. Albeit I was not aware of the clothing issues (or lack thereof ).
Cue the angelic chorus singing "I'm too sexy for my shirt...."
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Old 1st January 2019, 12:10 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Oh yikes. Does that mean the rest of us are going to have to clean up the corpses, or are we going to have to fend off the zombies?
It's both better and a great deal worse than you're thinking. It's going to be like how a science teacher of mine once speculated the Star Trek transporters would work in real life: the body will vanish away, but only the body itself-- all the bacteria, food undergoing every stage of digestion, dental plaque, skin mites, contents of bladder, and some nasal mucus and spit will remain behind, falling out of the suddenly-empty air. Everyone will leave a wet heap of gross behind them when they go, and even if they leave their clothes behind you won't want them.
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Old 1st January 2019, 12:43 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
While the logical traps and holes in rapture theology are fun to consider, the real point here is that the current US Secretary of State appears to believe this stuff, and that is frightening.
Especially if he thinks he's been appointed to play a central role in Armageddon.

Actually I don't know if the Rapture/Armageddon/Apocalypse are actually the same thing. Apparently the Rapture is from Thessalonians, while I thought all the end-of-the-world stuff was in Revelation. Probably would be a good idea to read that as well.

"The Rapture" was a pretty good '90s movie with Mimi Rogers.
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Old 1st January 2019, 01:18 AM   #92
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Well, we have an official new date for Armageddon - Jan 21 st, night of the Blood Moon.
Some Doomsayers start early in the year.
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Old 1st January 2019, 02:29 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
There should be a separation of church and state.... oh wait...
There are quite a few founding elements of the US that conservatives don’t care to conserve.
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Old 1st January 2019, 10:54 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Evangelical/rapture believers. Same thing.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


No it isn't.
Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
The vast majority of evangelicals believe the rapture will happen at some point in the future.

A small subset of evangelicals believe the rapture will happen within a double digit number of years.

Glad I am able to clear that up.

As someone who was raised in multiple flavours of Evangelical and related churches, I can confirm This is The End's comments.

All Evangelicals, and many other denominations, believe in the Rapture. Anyone who takes a literal interpretation of scripture must do so, because it's literally in scripture.

However, without going into the various permutations of Pre-, Mid-, and Post-Tribulation theology, the big debate is when it will occur, and how predictable its occurrence will be. When one believes it to occur will depend on how one interprets the "signs and wonders" passages of scripture.

There is a huge faction that quite seriously believes it will happen within their lifetime, or at least within their childrens' lifetimes, and therefore issues like pollution, climate change, etc. are non-issues for them. They won't be around long enough to care, and those who remain after they've been "called up" are evil sinners destined for hellm so anything that happens to their world is irrelevant to the Raptured Christian. Furthermore, war in the Middle East is not only not something to be unduly concerned about, it's actually something to be encouraged, because it's a "fulfillment" of scripture that presages the Rapture happening sooner rather than later. (A few of the more extreme believers think that they can accelerate the timeline, rather than simply sitting and waiting for G-D to sort it out.)

This faction may not be the majority, but they are an extremely vocal and politically-active minority. The more strident, invasive, and elitist a particular Evangelical sounds and acts, the more likely they are to be believe in a "sooner" version of the Rapture; particularly those who treat Trump as "G-D's chosen".

Now, not everyone who believes in some version, including the "in my lifetime" variant, will go about trumpeting it in public (that's not what Evangelical means). Most are either savvy enough to know that the majority of people won't care, and will treat them like they're lunatics; or are elitist enough to believe that such knowledge is for "the elect" only, not the damned masses.
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Old 1st January 2019, 01:24 PM   #95
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After reading this thread, I am more convinced than ever that religion is not something I can embrace. I'm much happier without it.
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Old 1st January 2019, 01:30 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What happens to the placenta? And do the unborn babies get to grow to adulthood in the afterlife, or do they have to just flop around as fetuses forever? Or worse, do they get implanted into the wombs of heaven residents who just have to be pregnant for eternity? Or do they give birth to them, and then they age? The main problem I have with theories of the afterlife is that nobody ever seems to really sit down and think out the details. It all gets very silly very quickly when you get into the details.
Ask Scorpion, he likes to make up stuff like this and pretend it's real.
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Old 1st January 2019, 01:49 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Well, we have an official new date for Armageddon - Jan 21 st, night of the Blood Moon.
Some Doomsayers start early in the year.
Prophecy taken from the Book of Buffy?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 02:34 AM   #98
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Meanwhile, we have STILL not yet determined accurately how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Answering this vital question will no doubt lead to further startling revelations.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 06:38 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Meanwhile, we have STILL not yet determined accurately how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Answering this vital question will no doubt lead to further startling revelations.
The first thing we need is a definable metric for pinheads.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:43 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
While the logical traps and holes in rapture theology are fun to consider, the real point here is that the current US Secretary of State appears to believe this stuff, and that is frightening.
This would appear to be the bit that actually matters. It does no harm if a person in charge of keeping the place running has some crazy belief in magical events that'll happen some time in the far future. But it really matters if they think long-term planning is pointless because the world is about to end.
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:39 AM   #101
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Finally got round to asking my friend these questions...

Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
1) One radio show nutcase I listen too always mentions (gleefully) how there will be planes flying and the pilot will suddenly disappear (having been raptured out). In those cases, will he be beamed out a la Star Trek, or will a hole be made in the side of the plane?

2) Likewise, will those who are in their cars or houses get a warning to go outside? Or are the trumpets supposed to alert all those who qualify?
No expectations of holes being required. Most likely they will pass through walls and other physical impediments.

Quote:
3) Presumably, Jesus will appear in Israel first. Will it be something like Santa Clause, where he goes all around the world collecting people?
Didn't accept your first point. They will meet Jesus in the air, dynamics not specified.

Quote:
4) When the raptured rise into the clouds to meet Jesus, what elevation will that be? It gets cold up there, and there is less oxygen - will they need coats and oxygen tanks? Won't it be inconvenient if they are naked?
Elevation unknown. Presumably at an altitude where oxygen and warmth are adequate, or they will be provided.

Quote:
5) Why would be people be raptured naked when God is so prudish?
Doesn't think they'll be naked or God is prudish.

Quote:
6) After the clouds/Jesus reunion, what next? Will everyone be zipped around the earth to some common cloud location? What about after that?
After the Rapture is the Bema Seat Judgement and then to the Father's House.

Quote:
7) How do they get to the place with the gold streets and the wall with the gates and gemstones?
Mode of transport not specified.

Quote:
8) Others have asked about the unborn - given the number of miscarriages and abortions already being direct admits, there must be a lot of unaccompanied minors in heaven. Who is raising all those children? Or do they just arrive as angels?
Didn't get round to this one.
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Old 10th January 2019, 05:13 PM   #102
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:41 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
After the Rapture is the Bema Seat Judgement and then to the Father's House.
So that's what they are calling it now.


Quote:
Mode of transport not specified.
I heard it was DC-8's.
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:48 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
The first thing we need is a definable metric for pinheads.

It would also depend on the type of angel and whether they could even perform movement that would be defined as dancing. If you go back to before the medieval artists, a lot of depictions of angels wouldn't look out of place in a Lovecraft story. I figured that's why they always say "Be not afraid" when appearing to humans in the Bible. Seraphim or Ophanim would have trouble dancing for example, not having any limbs. One is a mass of wings and the other is a wheel or interlocking wheels.
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Old 11th January 2019, 08:04 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Finally got round to asking my friend these questions...
Thanks very much for doing this. I found the responses to be very informative.
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Old 11th January 2019, 09:26 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
It would also depend on the type of angel and whether they could even perform movement that would be defined as dancing. If you go back to before the medieval artists, a lot of depictions of angels wouldn't look out of place in a Lovecraft story. I figured that's why they always say "Be not afraid" when appearing to humans in the Bible. Seraphim or Ophanim would have trouble dancing for example, not having any limbs. One is a mass of wings and the other is a wheel or interlocking wheels.

Yeah, the majority of angels described in scripture can readily be categorized as eldritch abominations. Interlocking wheels covered in eyes, giant heads with multiple animal faces, masses of wings, and so on.

Even the humanoid ones still have enough of a decidedly non-human presence to cause those they appear to to fall down in fear, or treat them as gods. I can only think of two instances off the top of my head where that did not occur, and in one of those they were clearly disguised to some degree.

None of them are anything like the winged, effeminate, nonthreatening, gracile adult or chubby baby tropes common to art from the Middle Ages onward.
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Old 11th January 2019, 09:47 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
In a global survey of Evangelical Protestant Leaders, " Six-in-ten leaders (61%) also say they believe in the Rapture of the Church — the teaching that believers will be instantly caught up with Christ before the Great Tribulation, leaving non-believers behind to suffer on Earth."
Good ol' merciful God.

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
"A slight majority of leaders (52%) believe that Christ will either probably (44%) or definitely (8%) return in their lifetimes. "
You'd think they'd realise that people have been saying that for a hundred generations.

Apparently I've misunderstood what 'rapture' means. I always thought it simply meant the second coming of Christ and Judgment Day. Apparently they mean that they'll fly away in the stars with a bunch of zombies. Typical.
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Old 11th January 2019, 10:03 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Bottom line 60% is not a vast majority. And I suppose it's also not the small fringe of a group.
Yes, 60% is, indeed and surprisingly, not a small fringe group.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What happens to the placenta? And do the unborn babies get to grow to adulthood in the afterlife, or do they have to just flop around as fetuses forever? Or worse, do they get implanted into the wombs of heaven residents who just have to be pregnant for eternity? Or do they give birth to them, and then they age? The main problem I have with theories of the afterlife is that nobody ever seems to really sit down and think out the details. It all gets very silly very quickly when you get into the details.
Thanks for the laugh, and for pointing out how silly fiction can get when you try to apply logic to it.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If I were God I'd set everyone to reincarnation just to buy myself enough time to think what to do next.
I love how, under this theory, we each have a parameter that controls what happens after death and god can do a CTRL-H to search and replace it cosmos-wide.

Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
6) After the clouds/Jesus reunion, what next? Will everyone be zipped around the earth to some common cloud location? What about after that??
Also, if we're all in the cloud, what measures does God have in place to prevent hacking?
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Old 11th January 2019, 10:09 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
However, without going into the various permutations of Pre-, Mid-, and Post-Tribulation theology, the big debate is when it will occur, and how predictable its occurrence will be. When one believes it to occur will depend on how one interprets the "signs and wonders" passages of scripture.
The Apocalypse is just about as boring as Ragnarok, but with more acid on the brain. Who wants to know exactly what's going to happen? I prefer open-ended mythologies where you have to work for your happy ending, thank you very much!

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There is a huge faction that quite seriously believes it will happen within their lifetime, or at least within their childrens' lifetimes, and therefore issues like pollution, climate change, etc. are non-issues for them. They won't be around long enough to care, and those who remain after they've been "called up" are evil sinners destined for hellm so anything that happens to their world is irrelevant to the Raptured Christian.
That'll suck to be them when they come back to Earth after 1000 years and have to clean up, while the rest of you sip pina coladas with Me.
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Old 11th January 2019, 10:13 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Doesn't think they'll be naked or God is prudish.
Of course he's prudish. Adam and Eve had to cover up once they got the knowledge of good and evil, which is presumably an objective truth known to God and made by God. So God thinks not wearing clothes is a no-no, which makes the first two Humans not wear clothes in their ignorance kind of a dick move. I say he was setting humans up to fail.
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Old 11th January 2019, 01:40 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
OI say he was setting humans up to fail.
Well, duh!

"Hey, I've created you without any knowledge of good or evil. Now There's a tree that will give you that knowledge, but don't you touch it! I mean, I created the whole universe, so I could've just as easily put the tree on Mars, or Omicron Persei VIII, but instead I'm going to put it right here next to you..."
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Old 11th January 2019, 01:47 PM   #112
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In it till the Rapture!

Under the Trump administration, the rupture will take down all the Trumpettes long before that rapture thing does....
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Old 11th January 2019, 02:05 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Well, duh!

"Hey, I've created you without any knowledge of good or evil. Now There's a tree that will give you that knowledge, but don't you touch it! I mean, I created the whole universe, so I could've just as easily put the tree on Mars, or Omicron Persei VIII, but instead I'm going to put it right here next to you..."
Other versions have more internal consistency.

Stephen Oppenheimer says that in South East Asia, local myths describe the creator wanting to give the secret of immortality to manking, but the snake stole it for itself by tricking man to not eat the tree of life or indeed not the "tree of knowledge" but from the "tree of death".

This is why the snake sheds its skin, which is how it achieves eternal youth.
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Old 11th January 2019, 04:27 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Well, duh!

"Hey, I've created you without any knowledge of good or evil. Now There's a tree that will give you that knowledge, but don't you touch it! I mean, I created the whole universe, so I could've just as easily put the tree on Mars, or Omicron Persei VIII, but instead I'm going to put it right here next to you..."
To be fair, he couldn't very well put it on Omicron Persei VIII, as the Perseians would've definitely burnt it down at the first opportunity. These guys are ********.
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Old 11th January 2019, 04:28 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Other versions have more internal consistency.

Stephen Oppenheimer says that in South East Asia, local myths describe the creator wanting to give the secret of immortality to manking, but the snake stole it for itself by tricking man to not eat the tree of life or indeed not the "tree of knowledge" but from the "tree of death".

This is why the snake sheds its skin, which is how it achieves eternal youth.
That is indeed a lot more coherent.
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Old 12th January 2019, 01:10 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That is indeed a lot more coherent.
And indeed, many of the early Old Testament stories make more sense if the god of the Israelites was part of a pantheon, maybe more powerful than their neighbours gods.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 12th January 2019, 04:35 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And indeed, many of the early Old Testament stories make more sense if the god of the Israelites was part of a pantheon, maybe more powerful than their neighbours gods.
In the first part of the OT it is explicit that other gods exist, they are just weaker than Yahweh. Moses has a miracle contest with the Egyptian priests and they keep up with his Yahweh miracles for a bit.
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