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Old 2nd January 2019, 11:23 AM   #1
JoeMorgue
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2018/2019 US Federal Government Shutdown

Kind of weird we didn't already have a thread on this.

For those of you living in countries not entirely lead by petulant man children the good ole' You, Ess of Eh's Federal Government has been in a state of partial shutdown for over 11 days.

I don't know if this is a thing can or does ever happen in other countries like is like our and I'm just going to assume this is another thing all your foreigners look at us and rightfully think we're crazy for but this is like the 15th shutdown in the last 40 years or so. They are just this thing that can happen because of a weird quirk in how our budgeting process works. They general only last a few hours, days. The longest was 21 days and people are saying this one might go on a while.

The exact real world affects of these always vary slightly because usually Congress will manage to pass a couple of Emergency Funding Bills in order to keep certain things going.

Right now some Federal workers have been furloughed without pay, some are working but with no pay and some are getting paid via emergency funding or other means. National Parks are shut down... as much as you can shutdown "the outside." Most government websites are no longer being updated. NASA's pretty much shutdown outside of mission essential work.

That's actually one of the weirdest things is how hard it is to get a straight answer on what the government is or isn't doing during the shutdown.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 11:34 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Kind of weird we didn't already have a thread on this.
What's really weird is how little impact the shutdown has on the daily lives of most citizens, compared to the amount of hype it receives.

Maybe there's no thread because after half a dozen of these things it's finally starting to sink in that the "government shutdown" is really just a miserable pile of political grandstanding and bureaucratic shenanigans, and that we all have better things to do with our lives than worry too much about it.

Though we're posting here, so maybe the whole "better things to do" bit isn't quite true...
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Old 2nd January 2019, 11:42 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Right now some Federal workers have been furloughed without pay, some are working but with no pay and some are getting paid via emergency funding or other means.
Must be nice. Most employers, when the board and the execs can't agree on how to make their thing a going concern, just start firing people.

And most people, given the opportunity to work for such a dysfunctional organization, quite reasonably decline and seek employment elsewhere.

Quote:
National Parks are shut down... as much as you can shutdown "the outside."
No problem there, then.

Quote:
Most government websites are no longer being updated.
In other important news, many Americans are suffering from hangnails right now.

Quote:
NASA's pretty much shutdown outside of mission essential work.
This should be the status quo for all government agencies. "But we have to stop working on anything that isn't essential to our mission!" should be a huge red flag.

Quote:
That's actually one of the weirdest things is how hard it is to get a straight answer on what the government is or isn't doing during the shutdown.
That should be another huge red flag. The whole shutdown narrative is shenanigans all the way down.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 11:49 AM   #4
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Some portions of the government are not shutdown and are still fully funded. I work at the Puget shipyard and am getting paid. It is work as usual here since we got back from the xmas curtailment.

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Old 2nd January 2019, 11:57 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And most people, given the opportunity to work for such a dysfunctional organization, quite reasonably decline and seek employment elsewhere.
Or they try to fix the behavior to show that they have the ability and intelligence to correct wrong doing.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No problem there, then.
LoL what? What kind of reasoning is this? Do you actually have any idea what the forest services do? At all?

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In other important news, many Americans are suffering from hangnails right now.
Of which there are several resolutions that those individual people can use to resolve those issues. This is easily the worst comparison of two things I've ever seen.

Then again when you're forced to defend Trump and rationalize his behavior this is what you come up with.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This should be the status quo for all government agencies. "But we have to stop working on anything that isn't essential to our mission!" should be a huge red flag.
LoL do just the essential stuff at your job. Research and Development isn't always "necessary" but it's definitely helpful to all people, everywhere.

I get a kick of that though. Boss comes up, "Can you do x task? It's not usually yours but the person that normally does it is gone."

"Sorry, I only do things that are essential to my task, as I read on the internet that's the status quo"

"Oh, ok. You're fired, pack up your ****."

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That should be another huge red flag. The whole shutdown narrative is shenanigans all the way down.
Tell that to the families that aren't working or getting paid. Let them know that you have no issues in them being used as a pawn for the dumbest ******* idea ever, LoL.

I'll partially agree in saying that the government shut down is a red herring. The real heart of the problem is how we elected someone that's so ******* stupid he thinks a wall will do...anything.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 12:03 PM   #6
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Short term, in the dead of winter, you may not notice the Federal Parks are closed.

But overall, the shutdown is causing issues that may bite us in the ass long-term, for example the FAA: https://www.oklahoman.com/article/56...Dt5bheZIozfFAQ
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Old 2nd January 2019, 12:04 PM   #7
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My sister and her husband both work for the government. He's just not getting paid, she's getting paid until her earned time off is depleted, then she won't get paid either. They have two kids. They're burning through their savings, and if the shutdown continues they'll have to find other jobs.

I'll pass along how it's no big deal, per the poster above. I hope he finds himself without income for a while, so he can learn sympathy.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 12:06 PM   #8
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I notice Donny is not "shut down" and is still getting paid. And getting food and boarding at taxpayer expense. Donny only cares about Donny. Perhaps if he was cut off, not fed, and turfed out onto Pennsylvania Ave with just the clothes he stands up in, things might change faster. His "wall" might suddenly be less important than his "essential" personal needs.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 12:13 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
My sister and her husband both work for the government. He's just not getting paid, she's getting paid until her earned time off is depleted, then she won't get paid either. They have two kids. They're burning through their savings, and if the shutdown continues they'll have to find other jobs.

I'll pass along how it's no big deal, per the poster above. I hope he finds himself without income for a while, so he can learn sympathy.
That's just standard issue cruelty from the Trump enablers around here. If you aren't the critical person making the electricity go to their house you are obviously dead weight, never deserved a job in the first place, and they will handwave away your concerns rather than address the fact that the psycho they support in the White House had a toddler tantrum.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 12:13 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What's really weird is how little impact the shutdown has on the daily lives of most citizens, compared to the amount of hype it receives.
People don't need the government to do stuff... until they do.

Take for example the national parks, or the museums that may get shut down. Most people don't spend 24/7 wandering around Yellowstone or visit the Smithsonian every day, but when it comes time for their yearly vacation they may want those things open.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 12:21 PM   #11
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Let us also recall that Trump stated in the past that Shutdowns are entire on the head of the President.

When he threatened to shut down the government he said straight up that he would own the shutdown.

Today? ITS ALL THE FAULT OF DEMOCRATS WHO DON'T EVEN HAVE A MAJORITY IN EITHER HOUSE YET!!!
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Old 2nd January 2019, 12:21 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Must be nice. Most employers, when the board and the execs can't agree on how to make their thing a going concern, just start firing people.
In some places, if a person gets laid off from a private sector job, there is usually a severance package offered. On the other hand, the current government "you are not getting paid but you are not laid off either" does not offer any sort of similar compensation.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 12:27 PM   #13
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Also the small detail of when you are fired you can go look for another job. You can't do that when you have no idea when your primary job is going to... turn back on.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 12:35 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Or they try to fix the behavior to show that they have the ability and intelligence to correct wrong doing.
You may have misunderstood who I was referring to, in that instance. Most people looking for a job aren't going to apply to a dysfunctional employer with the expectation of changing the employer's behavior. They're simply going to look for work with an employer that isn't dysfunctional. If your paychecks stopped flowing because the federal government can't get its **** together, maybe that's a sign that you shouldn't keep working for the federal government.

After all, walking out the door is the usual reaction, when your employer stops making payroll every month.

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LoL what? What kind of reasoning is this? Do you actually have any idea what the forest services do? At all?
The National Parks are closed to the public because the federal government doesn't want to pay people to serve the public. This state of affairs is undesirable but hardly disastrous.

If there's some other aspect of the Parks shutdown that you believe *is* disastrous, feel free to discuss it.

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Of which there are several resolutions that those individual people can use to resolve those issues. This is easily the worst comparison of two things I've ever seen.
I compared one non-disastrous annoyance to another. A federal website isn't being updated in a timely manner? If that's on the short list of notable problems with the shutdown, then the shutdown really is pretty trivial after all.

Quote:
Then again when you're forced to defend Trump and rationalize his behavior this is what you come up with.
It's Congress that shuts down the government, not the President.

At some point you'll have to get beyond blaming Trump for all the institutional dysfunctions of the federal government, and actually grapple with the underlying premise of a "government shutdown".

Quote:
LoL do just the essential stuff at your job. Research and Development isn't always "necessary" but it's definitely helpful to all people, everywhere.
If R&D isn't an essential part of a government agency's mission, maybe it should be. I'd prefer to start by having government agencies do only what their mission actually is. Then we can start having discussions about what else needs to get done that isn't, and what agencies (if any) should be chartered to do it.

Quote:
I get a kick of that though. Boss comes up, "Can you do x task? It's not usually yours but the person that normally does it is gone."
If it's essential to the organization, then it's appropriate for the organization to have someone doing it - even if just to fill while the regular person is out.

But that's not what's happening here.

Quote:
"Sorry, I only do things that are essential to my task, as I read on the internet that's the status quo"
Having well-defined job duties, and not being expected to do additional work outside of those defined duties, is in fact quite commonplace in the workforce. Labor unions typically work very hard to establish and enforce such agreements.

But again, that's not quite what is happening here.

As citizens, we should expect our government to do whatever we agree it is essential for them to do - no less, and also no more. When the government "shutdown" consists of government agencies finding non-essential work, and no longer doing it, that should raise serious questions about why they were doing that work in the first place, and whether they should ever start doing that work again.

Quote:
Tell that to the families that aren't working or getting paid. Let them know that you have no issues in them being used as a pawn for the dumbest ******* idea ever, LoL.
I have plenty of issues in [sic] them being used as pawns. So should they. Ultimately, it is a person's own responsibility to take on the world as it comes. If they want to work for the federal government, that's their choice. But it's a choice that involves being a political pawn-in-waiting. If that choice appeals to you, be my guest. But it's your choice.

Quote:
I'll partially agree in saying that the government shut down is a red herring. The real heart of the problem is how we elected someone that's so ******* stupid he thinks a wall will do...anything.
Again, it's not the President that shuts down the government. It's Congress.

Last edited by theprestige; 2nd January 2019 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 12:37 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Let us also recall that Trump stated in the past that Shutdowns are entire on the head of the President.

When he threatened to shut down the government he said straight up that he would own the shutdown.

Today? ITS ALL THE FAULT OF DEMOCRATS WHO DON'T EVEN HAVE A MAJORITY IN EITHER HOUSE YET!!!

How does this work? Hasnít he had a majority in both houses for the last couple of years? Why didnít he get the funding passed then, and why is a shutdown necessary now?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 12:44 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
How does this work? Hasnít he had a majority in both houses for the last couple of years? Why didnít he get the funding passed then, and why is a shutdown necessary now?
He tweets that its the Democrats fault. His followers eat it up because somehow being out of power means Democrats have all the power. Simple, yes?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 12:46 PM   #17
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Since the issue of how the shutdown affects Joe Average citizen was brought up, lets look at how regular people may be affected:

Some of the immediate effects:

- Social security... Yes, payments may still be sent out, but they may not have staff to handle routine issues like change-of-address.

- The IRS can process returns, but may not be able to issue refunds.

- Because the functionality of the IRS may be affected, some people will have trouble getting mortgages if they need tax information as part of their mortgage application

- The FDA and CDC will only be handling emergency situations. The thing is, sometimes investigation into less-critical cases may actually help prevent bad situations from worsening

- Medical research will be affected, as some studies won't be able to accept new patients because of the shutdown

- Although air traffic controllers will remain on the job, they won't get paid. (At some point, you may get experienced controllers quitting and finding jobs elsewhere, which of course could affect air safety)

So yeah, nothing that would affect an average person, unless they ever 1) eat anything, 2) get sick, 3) plan to travel somewhere, 4) want to buy a house.

If the shut down lasts more than a month or 2, you will have the following:

- Federal courts may largely shut down in February.

- Military pay may be delayed

- Food stamps may be affected

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...osed-furloughs

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...osed-furloughs
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Old 2nd January 2019, 12:46 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Again, it's not the President that shuts down the government. It's Congress.
Aside from your logic being flawed, in my opinion, did the President not receive a bill to keep the government open, but refused to sign it? Feel free to correct my error.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 12:46 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post

Again, it's not the President that shuts down the government. It's Congress.
Tell that to Trump:

https://www.commondreams.org/news/20...nment-shutdown

But now?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ames-democrats
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Old 2nd January 2019, 12:48 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post

I have plenty of issues in [sic] them being used as pawns. So should they. Ultimately, it is a person's own responsibility to take on the world as it comes. If they want to work for the federal government, that's their choice. But it's a choice that involves being a political pawn-in-waiting. If that choice appeals to you, be my guest. But it's your choice.
Good old victim blaming.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 12:52 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
... snipped for relevance ...

It's Congress that shuts down the government, not the President.

At some point you'll have to get beyond blaming Trump for all the institutional dysfunctions of the federal government, and actually grapple with the underlying premise of a "government shutdown".

... snipped for relevance ...

Again, it's not the President that shuts down the government. It's Congress.
If you are correct, then Republicans have to be the most stupid people ever to run the country considering that:

the President is a Republican, that
the House is Republican, that
the Senate is Republican, and
since Trump himself took credit for shutting down the government.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 12:53 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
He tweets that its the Democrats fault. His followers eat it up because somehow being out of power means Democrats have all the power. Simple, yes?

But why not just secure the funding when he had a majority? Itís almost as if the wall doesnít matter.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 12:55 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
But why not just secure the funding when he had a majority? Itís almost as if the wall doesnít matter.
Might have something to do how the GOP devoted itself so hard to stopping Obama they forgot how to actually do anything.

Except tax cuts for the rich, they always remember how to do that.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 12:58 PM   #24
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Since the shutdown he precipitated doesn't affect Trump personally, he doesn't give a rats about the consequences of his actions. As soon as it DOES bite his ass, he will do something. So the solution needs to start with an "incentive" for Trump - perhaps the White House chefs get furloughed and all food deliveries stopped?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:00 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Since the shutdown he precipitated doesn't affect Trump personally, he doesn't give a rats about the consequences of his actions. As soon as it DOES bite his ass, he will do something. So the solution needs to start with an "incentive" for Trump - perhaps the White House chefs get furloughed and all food deliveries stopped?
He's still got enough cash to hit McD's. That probably wouldn't affect him much.

Is there a government funded ass kisser? They would need to be clipped first.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:03 PM   #26
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So conservatives (but apparently not quite enough conservatives) want to spend a whole lot more money than liberals, more money on a project that is clearly a boondoggle of epic proportions. The actual fiscal conservatives will prevail, especially now that the Democrats took control of the House. This boondoggle simply doesn't have the votes with the people more careful about how they spend our tax dollars.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:08 PM   #27
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The whole process of how budgeting in America works is the most ludicrous thing ever anyway thing because it allows both Congress and the President to play an endless game of "Technically not my fault/job" over things which are... totally their fault and their job.

Okay to oversimplify it a little when it comes to the money part of the American Federal Government the President has the authority to A) Collect Taxes and B) Spend that money to run the government.

But Congress is the one who A) sets the tax limits B) actually writes the Federal Budget.

Here's where it gets weird.

The President is required by law to spend the money raised by taxes (the amount of which is set by Congress) on the things in the Budget approved by Congress.

Usually this becomes a problem because Congress creates a budget for itself larger than the actual revenue produced by the tax revenue that they... also set for themselves. In any sane world this wouldn't be an issue because permission to borrow the extra money needed to implement the budget the President was legally required to carry out with the money he was provided would be implied but in America we have the Debt Ceiling so the President, in order to carry out the budget he is legally required by law to carry out, has to back to Congress and ask permission to borrow money to make up for the difference in the Tax Revenue that Congress also sets and Congress acts shocked, shocked I tell you, that the President would do such a thing.

So Congress:

1. Mandates how much is to be spent and on what.
2. Mandates how much money we have to spend.
3. Mandates how much the President can borrow if 1 and 2 don't add up (which they never do.)
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:09 PM   #28
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Trumpistas around here aren't even trying anymore.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:11 PM   #29
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
In some places, if a person gets laid off from a private sector job, there is usually a severance package offered. On the other hand, the current government "you are not getting paid but you are not laid off either" does not offer any sort of similar compensation.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Also the small detail of when you are fired you can go look for another job. You can't do that when you have no idea when your primary job is going to... turn back on.
Who in their right mind considers working for someone who won't pay them to be their "primary job"?

Again, the rational thing to do when your employer stops making payroll and can't even give you a straight answer about when you'll be back to work, is to stop having them as your employer. If my employer stops making payroll, I don't need a formal layoff or a fancy severance package to know it's time to start looking for other work.

Last edited by theprestige; 2nd January 2019 at 02:18 PM. Reason: s/./?/
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:12 PM   #30
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You may have misunderstood who I was referring to, in that instance. Most people looking for a job aren't going to apply to a dysfunctional employer with the expectation of changing the employer's behavior. They're simply going to look for work with an employer that isn't dysfunctional.
Up until Trump was elected, the U.S. government was relatively stable. Yes, there had been a couple of shut downs, but they were short. This current shut down may last a long time.
Quote:
The National Parks are closed to the public because the federal government doesn't want to pay people to serve the public. This state of affairs is undesirable but hardly disastrous.
Its still a function that affects a large number of people (perhaps not on a daily basis, but will affect a significant number of the population within the year.)
Quote:
If there's some other aspect of the Parks shutdown that you believe *is* disastrous, feel free to discuss it.
The shutdown means that many park rangers are furloughed. Now, there are plans for a skeleton staff to handle things like rescue and fire, but this can cause problems if there are multiple disasters or fires simultaneously. Which risks people's lives.

Quote:
A federal website isn't being updated in a timely manner? If that's on the short list of notable problems with the shutdown, then the shutdown really is pretty trivial after all.
Keep in mind that "updating a web site" might include applying security patches. (I'm not sure if system security is considered an 'essential' function, but its likely that if they're furloughing people, system security might lapse.) This means that personal data may be at risk (e.g. if the IRS or similar gets targeted.)

Quote:
It's Congress that shuts down the government, not the President.
Uhhh... if Congress sends a budget bill to Trump and he doesn't sign it, then it is the president that shuts down the government.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:15 PM   #31
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
If you are correct, then Republicans have to be the most stupid people ever to run the country considering that:

the President is a Republican, that
the House is Republican, that
the Senate is Republican, and
since Trump himself took credit for shutting down the government.
You'll get no argument from me on any of those points.

In fact, if you were to use this as the basis for advocating that we aggressively reduce the authority and influence of the stupid people who run the government, you would have my full support.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:21 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
.....
I don't know if this is a thing can or does ever happen in other countries like is like our and I'm just going to assume this is another thing all your foreigners look at us and rightfully think we're crazy ....
Doesn't happen here - and we do think you are crazy.

But we do have our own Brexit shambles, so maybe there's a lot of crazy going around.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:24 PM   #33
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Who in their right mind considers working for someone who won't pay them to be their "primary job".

Again, the rational thing to do when your employer stops making payroll and can't even give you a straight answer about when you'll be back to work, is to stop having them as your employer.
First of all, as I mentioned before, until recently the government was a relatively stable employer. yes, there have been shutdowns in the past, but the last one lasted only a little over 2 weeks. Because of Trump's little tantrums, this shutdown may be a lot longer.

Secondly, keep in mind that some job skills are uniquely suited to the government. If (for example) you're a forest ranger, you will find your skills are not as relevant to private industry. (And, if you're a particularly good forest ranger, yours skills would be a great benefit to the country.) Same goes with things like fire-fighters, or experts in communicable diseases.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:24 PM   #34
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I would assume Crossbow is not from this country.

You need 60 votes in the senate to pass anything.

Having a 52-48 majority doesn't mean squat.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:28 PM   #35
uke2se
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I would assume Crossbow is not from this country.

You need 60 votes in the senate to pass anything.

Having a 52-48 majority doesn't mean squat.
That's kind of a crap system. Don't know why you hold the Founding Fathers in such high regard when the system they created is incapable of producing results.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:43 PM   #36
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you need a majority for approving nominees for judicial and cabinet positions.

however, for laws, without 60 votes, they majority can not stop a fillibuster.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:44 PM   #37
uke2se
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
you need a majority for approving nominees for judicial and cabinet positions.

however, for laws, without 60 votes, they majority can not stop a fillibuster.
Like I said, a crap system. Ensures nothing gets done.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:45 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I would assume Crossbow is not from this country.
Well then, your assumption is quite wrong. In fact, if you would bother to check the Location term that is posted just under my avatar and/or ask me yourself, then you could find out the facts.

Quote:
You need 60 votes in the senate to pass anything.
That is not true. While it is true that one does need 60 votes to end cloture, but if cloture is not invoked, then the 60 votes are not needed.

Quote:
Having a 52-48 majority doesn't mean squat.
Again, not true.

Just look at how the new Supreme Court justice got in if you want to see how wrong you are.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:46 PM   #39
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I would assume Crossbow is not from this country.
You need 60 votes in the senate to pass anything.
Having a 52-48 majority doesn't mean squat.
I'm not American either, but your statement is wrong.

There ARE situations where a simple senate majority (52-48) can do stuff. Things like approval of judicial appointments. They can even approve new laws (remember, the Republican "Increase the debt by giving tax breaks to wealthy people" law was passed by a simple majority), although doing so requires the use of a few tricks.

And it should be noted that senators can act independently. If a party has a senate majority but hasn't reached the 60 vote threshold, they could (in theory) compromise in order to pick up a few moderate votes from the other party.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:49 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
And it should be noted that senators can act independently. If a party has a senate majority but hasn't reached the 60 vote threshold, they could (in theory) compromise in order to pick up a few moderate votes from the other party.
This. Listen I go on about tribalism more than anyone and make no excuses for how often it annoys me but Congress does, no matter how even or uneven it is, manage to get stuff done from time to time.

Government should be slow. Change should be hard. We don't want the government, even if fully staffed nothing but perfect people operating on 100% good intentions, to act on a whim.
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