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Old 8th January 2019, 08:16 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Your argument suggests that there should be no poor girls at all, they should all be dead by now. But that isn't happening. Clearly there's some barrier to killing baby girls, which not all poor parents get past.

We should expect that abortion lowers that barrier, and so should increase the number of girls who are killed. That certainly seems to be the case in the developed world. Now, maybe that's not the case in India (though no one has presented evidence to that effect). But if it isn't, if nobody willing to abort a girl as a fetus wasn't also willing to kill it as a baby, that would be extraordinary. And it would have some rather deep implications. You haven't actually argued that this is the case. Is that really what you believe?
You almost had it at the end there.
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Old 8th January 2019, 09:07 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
You almost had it at the end there.
You aren't very good at reading comprehension.

I'm well aware that he probably doesn't think all poor girls should be dead. Nevertheless, there is a gap in his argument as presented, regardless of what he believes. In any short exchange, some gaps in arguments are inevitable as a result of space constraints, and not all such gaps are important. But that gap is important, for reasons I explained and which you haven't addressed.
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Old 9th January 2019, 03:32 PM   #83
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I find it telling that our board conservatives fixate fanatically upon abortion as a contributing factor toward gender imbalance without discussion of how it contributes to personal, social, and financial improvements for women. As well as, oh yeah, helps reduce the hideous overpopulation problems that plague India.

Also worthy of note: China has greater rates of sex-selective abortion than India. But far fewer problems with inequality* by most international standards.



* (Not to be confused with a lack of significant equality problems in China)
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Old 9th January 2019, 03:43 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
I find it telling that our board conservatives fixate fanatically upon abortion as a contributing factor toward gender imbalance without discussion of how it contributes to personal, social, and financial improvements for women. As well as, oh yeah, helps reduce the hideous overpopulation problems that plague India.
Progressives are always happy to tout the purported benefits of abortion, but never seem to have anything to say about the possible downsides. Except occasionally to dismiss anyone else who dares to mention them. So I'd say it kinda evens out.
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Old 9th January 2019, 03:57 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
I find it telling that our board conservatives fixate fanatically upon abortion as a contributing factor toward gender imbalance without discussion of how it contributes to personal, social, and financial improvements for women. As well as, oh yeah, helps reduce the hideous overpopulation problems that plague India.
Abortion is a piss-poor method of population control, and you've got serious systemic social problems (like Russia does) if that's what you're relying on. And it doesn't seem to have helped Indian women all that much, by the looks of things.

Quote:
Also worthy of note: China has greater rates of sex-selective abortion than India. But far fewer problems with inequality* by most international standards.
Their baseline prior to widespread abortion wasn't as bad as India's. Doesn't mean it still won't cause problems.
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Old 10th January 2019, 03:00 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
I find it telling that our board conservatives fixate fanatically upon abortion as a contributing factor toward gender imbalance without discussion of how it contributes to personal, social, and financial improvements for women. As well as, oh yeah, helps reduce the hideous overpopulation problems that plague India.

Also worthy of note: China has greater rates of sex-selective abortion than India. But far fewer problems with inequality* by most international standards.



* (Not to be confused with a lack of significant equality problems in China)
By that standard 90s Russia onward should be a utopia for women when at point there was almost 3 times as many abortions as births.
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Old 10th January 2019, 11:40 AM   #87
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I'm done trying to integrate the subject of abortions with the topic of India's women's rights. When countries with similar population pressures and even more sex-selective abortions have a lot better equality for women than India, THERE'S SOMETHING ELSE GOING ON. DUH. Hopefully enough people will not be distracted that Indian women can take the train to work without fearing a rape gang for which the police will blame HER. That she can enter the temple of her chosen deity to worship without some stranger trying to determine where she is in her menstrual cycle or simply to block her on the one in four chance that this is an unclean day.
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Old 10th January 2019, 12:00 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
I'm done trying to integrate the subject of abortions with the topic of India's women's rights.
Then stop talking about it.

Quote:
When countries with similar population pressures and even more sex-selective abortions have a lot better equality for women than India, THERE'S SOMETHING ELSE GOING ON. DUH.
Nobody has claimed abortion is the only factor at play here.
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Old 10th January 2019, 01:12 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You continue to misunderstand the argument. Nobody said current events are the root of misogyny in India. But current events can still exacerbate that old problem. So it makes no sense to say that current events have nothing to do with it, especially since we're talking about current events. Of course current events can affect other current events, even if the events being affected have deep roots.
I find the argument ludicrous. You repeat the frequent debate mistake believing a person who doesn't agree must not understand.
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Old 10th January 2019, 01:13 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
I'm done trying to integrate the subject of abortions with the topic of India's women's rights. When countries with similar population pressures and even more sex-selective abortions have a lot better equality for women than India, THERE'S SOMETHING ELSE GOING ON. DUH. Hopefully enough people will not be distracted that Indian women can take the train to work without fearing a rape gang for which the police will blame HER. That she can enter the temple of her chosen deity to worship without some stranger trying to determine where she is in her menstrual cycle or simply to block her on the one in four chance that this is an unclean day.
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Old 10th January 2019, 01:17 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I find the argument ludicrous. You repeat the frequent debate mistake believing a person who doesn't agree must not understand.
It isn't because you disagree with me that I know you don't understand, it's that you address claims that nobody ever made.
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Old 10th January 2019, 06:52 PM   #92
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I don't find the idea that the gender imbalance that is caused by both infanticide and abortion has had a negative impact on women's rights to be ludicrous. It's an interesting hypothesis, but at this stage it's also nothing more than that.

The next step is to examine that hypothesis scientifically. NWO Sentryman hasn't done so (or at least hasn't shared that examination with us).
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Old 11th January 2019, 01:31 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I don't find the idea that the gender imbalance that is caused by both infanticide and abortion has had a negative impact on women's rights to be ludicrous. It's an interesting hypothesis, but at this stage it's also nothing more than that.

The next step is to examine that hypothesis scientifically. NWO Sentryman hasn't done so (or at least hasn't shared that examination with us).
The problem is paywalling makes that incredibly difficult.

However, I can argue that social anxiety caused by abortion induced demographic crisis has set women back in Russia, contrary to the belief that abortion is inherently empowering for women.
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Old 11th January 2019, 10:32 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
The problem is paywalling makes that incredibly difficult.

However, I can argue that social anxiety caused by abortion induced demographic crisis has set women back in Russia, contrary to the belief that abortion is inherently empowering for women.

Abortion became legal in the U.S. in 1973. Did that begin an abortion induced demographic crisis?

45 years ought to be enough to provide some statistical evidence. Has it?

(Note: According to the 2010 U.S. Census the population was 50.8% female and 49.2% male.)

Maybe it isn't the availability of abortions that is the root cause of such results as demographic imbalance.
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Old 11th January 2019, 10:34 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
I'm done trying to integrate the subject of abortions with the topic of India's women's rights. When countries with similar population pressures and even more sex-selective abortions have a lot better equality for women than India, THERE'S SOMETHING ELSE GOING ON. DUH. Hopefully enough people will not be distracted that Indian women can take the train to work without fearing a rape gang for which the police will blame HER. That she can enter the temple of her chosen deity to worship without some stranger trying to determine where she is in her menstrual cycle or simply to block her on the one in four chance that this is an unclean day.
*puts on MRA cap*

Last I checked raping of males is legal in India. Not sure I'd paint it as a gendered issue the way you did, because of this.
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Old 11th January 2019, 10:54 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Maybe it isn't the availability of abortions that is the root cause of such results as demographic imbalance.
As has been pointed out multiple times now, nobody here has claimed abortion is the root cause, only an exacerbating factor.
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Old 11th January 2019, 11:51 AM   #97
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I've been to South Bend, I don't think there are enough women there to extend 20 miles, let alone 385
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Old 11th January 2019, 11:52 AM   #98
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OK, but how long was it?
Quote:
NPR: Millions Of Women In India Join Hands To Form A 385-Mile Wall Of Protest
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Old 11th January 2019, 08:17 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
As has been pointed out multiple times now, nobody here has claimed abortion is the root cause, only an exacerbating factor.

How much of an exacerbating factor has it been in the U.S.?
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Old 11th January 2019, 10:01 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
As has been pointed out multiple times now, nobody here has claimed abortion is the root cause, only an exacerbating factor.
Which there is no evidence or even a rational reason why abortion exacerbates the problem. Rather, the devalued position of women in India is one of the reasons female children are aborted.

You know, that cause and effect thing.
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Old 11th January 2019, 10:04 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
How much of an exacerbating factor has it been in the U.S.?
You would expect difference outcomes in different cultures. The argument that is being made is that the pre-existing culture in which boys are more valued than girls has led to sex-selective abortion (this is a fact), and thus a gender imbalance (another fact) in those societies where that precondition existed.

Is the gender imbalance greater than it would have been without abortion (when only infanticide was available as a method of changing sex ratios)? I don't know, but I think Ziggurat has argued persuasively that it at least probably is.

Has that gender imbalance contributed to the repression of women in those societies where it has occurred? I'm not convinced that it has, and furthermore tend to think that even if it has had some effect, it's likely small enough that it's overwhelmed by other factors*, but I don't think we can glibly dismiss the idea either.

The fact that this hasn't happened in the US is neither surprising nor in contradiction to the thesis that NWO Sentryman has put forward.

One more comment is that even if abortion has led to a higher degree of gender imbalance and that has had a negative affect on women's rights in those societies, that doesn't mean that the total affect of abortion on women's rights has been negative. It would have to be weighed against other factors that are impacted by abortion.

*So if we wish to address the issues facing women in India this is probably a red herring, there are other things which we should focus on.
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:52 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman
Hans Rowling has talked at length about how falling birth rates empower women, except by that logic Russia, who's aborted it's way to demographic collapse, should be experiencing a golden age for women
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
You are aware that in the real world multiple variables can all have an effect on outcomes, aren't you?
Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman
By that standard 90s Russia onward should be a utopia for women when at point there was almost 3 times as many abortions as births.
You still don't grasp the concept of multiple variables, do you? Coronary bypass surgery undeniably saves lives. And having access to coronary bypass surgery improves the range of outcomes for those with heart issues such as Atherosclerosis. And yet....a society that performs more coronary bypass surgeries might not actually be a healthier or longer-living one when compared with another that does not. Think a little about why this might be the case.

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 12th January 2019 at 12:53 AM.
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:38 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
How much of an exacerbating factor has it been in the U.S.?
Not much so far because there hasn't been much sex selective abortion in the U.S.
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:45 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
The problem is paywalling makes that incredibly difficult.



However, I can argue that social anxiety caused by abortion induced demographic crisis has set women back in Russia, contrary to the belief that abortion is inherently empowering for women.
You are rasing a false dichotomy, abortion on demand may be "empowering" for individuals regardless of the effects on a wider group. I don't know if you are USA based but an example from there would be their 2nd amendment right, there is a cost at a societal level by an individual having the freedom to own some forms of firearms despite some people being empowered at the individual level.
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:45 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Which there is no evidence or even a rational reason why abortion exacerbates the problem. Rather, the devalued position of women in India is one of the reasons female children are aborted.

You know, that cause and effect thing.
I gave you a rational reason why, you simply ignored it. No counter arguments have been presented. It has been suggested that the effect might be small compared to other factors, but no one has presented any reason for why it would be zero.
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:53 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
You would expect difference outcomes in different cultures. The argument that is being made is that the pre-existing culture in which boys are more valued than girls has led to sex-selective abortion (this is a fact),... snip.. .
Is it a fact in India?

How long have such procedures been available?
What is the cost of such procedures?
What percentage of abortions are because the fetus is female?

From the evidence used in this thread we are far, far away from even being able to say sex selective abortion is common enough in India to have already skewed female to male demographics, never mind then trying to demonstrate a causual link or contributing factor to the type of treatment the women in the protests mentioned in this thread are campaigning against.
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:55 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Not much so far because there hasn't been much sex selective abortion in the U.S.
How much has there been compared to India?
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Old 12th January 2019, 07:58 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Is it a fact in India?

How long have such procedures been available?
What is the cost of such procedures?
What percentage of abortions are because the fetus is female?

From the evidence used in this thread we are far, far away from even being able to say sex selective abortion is common enough in India to have already skewed female to male demographics, never mind then trying to demonstrate a causual link or contributing factor to the type of treatment the women in the protests mentioned in this thread are campaigning against.
Good point, I really have no idea how common abortion is in India.
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Old 12th January 2019, 09:12 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How much has there been compared to India?
There has been a lot in India. It's officially illegal to do gender selection abortion so it's hard to get direct statistics, but illegal abortion is easy to get.
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Old 12th January 2019, 11:45 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I gave you a rational reason why, you simply ignored it. No counter arguments have been presented. It has been suggested that the effect might be small compared to other factors, but no one has presented any reason for why it would be zero.
There is no counter-argument to nonsense.
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Old 12th January 2019, 12:25 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Good point, I really have no idea how common abortion is in India.
Here's an article on the subject:

Trends in selective abortions of girls in India: analysis of nationally representative birth histories from 1990 to 2005 and census data from 1991 to 2011

Quote:
Findings The conditional sex ratio for second-order births when the firstborn was a girl fell from 906 per 1000 boys (99% CI 798–1013) in 1990 to 836 (733–939) in 2005; an annual decline of 0·52% (p for trend=0∙002). Declines were much greater in mothers with 10 or more years of education than in mothers with no education, and in wealthier households compared with poorer households. By contrast, we did not detect any significant declines in the sex ratio for second-order births if the firstborn was a boy, or for firstborns. Between the 2001 and 2011 censuses, more than twice the number of Indian districts (local administrative areas) showed declines in the child sex ratio as districts with no change or increases. After adjusting for excess mortality rates in girls, our estimates of number of selective abortions of girls rose from 0–2·0 million in the 1980s, to 1·2–4·1 million in the 1990s, and to 3·1–6·0 million in the 2000s. Each 1% decline in child sex ratio at ages 0–6 years implied 1·2–3·6 million more selective abortions of girls. Selective abortions of girls totalled about 4·2–12·1 million from 1980–2010, with a greater rate of increase in the 1990s than in the 2000s.
I thought the impact of sex selective abortion in India, China, and elsewhere was well known. I am surprised to see people arguing against it here. If it is illegal now, then it has been made illegal due to the scale of the practice. There are a lot of articles on the subject.

Another article:

http://qed.econ.queensu.ca/pub/facul...ions_india.pdf

Results from pages 776 and 777 show that mothers in India who have amniocentesis have give birth at girl/boy ratios of 934/1000, while women who do get amniocentesis have a ratio of 891/1000. Page 779 estimates a lower number of female sex selective abortions in India at 106,107 per year as of 2001. They think the actual number is higher.

Last edited by crescent; 12th January 2019 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 12th January 2019, 01:58 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There has been a lot in India. It's officially illegal to do gender selection abortion so it's hard to get direct statistics, but illegal abortion is easy to get.
Any... Er.. Evidence?
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Old 12th January 2019, 02:01 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Here's an article on the subject:

Trends in selective abortions of girls in India: analysis of nationally representative birth histories from 1990 to 2005 and census data from 1991 to 2011



I thought the impact of sex selective abortion in India, China, and elsewhere was well known. I am surprised to see people arguing against it here. If it is illegal now, then it has been made illegal due to the scale of the practice. There are a lot of articles on the subject.

Another article:

http://qed.econ.queensu.ca/pub/facul...ions_india.pdf

Results from pages 776 and 777 show that mothers in India who have amniocentesis have give birth at girl/boy ratios of 934/1000, while women who do get amniocentesis have a ratio of 891/1000. Page 779 estimates a lower number of female sex selective abortions in India at 106,107 per year as of 2001. They think the actual number is higher.
How are the poor in India affording these expensive procedures?
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Old 12th January 2019, 02:04 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Here's an article on the subject:

Trends in selective abortions of girls in India: analysis of nationally representative birth histories from 1990 to 2005 and census data from 1991 to 2011



I thought the impact of sex selective abortion in India, China, and elsewhere was well known. I am surprised to see people arguing against it here. If it is illegal now, then it has been made illegal due to the scale of the practice. There are a lot of articles on the subject.

Another article:

http://qed.econ.queensu.ca/pub/facul...ions_india.pdf

Results from pages 776 and 777 show that mothers in India who have amniocentesis have give birth at girl/boy ratios of 934/1000, while women who do get amniocentesis have a ratio of 891/1000. Page 779 estimates a lower number of female sex selective abortions in India at 106,107 per year as of 2001. They think the actual number is higher.
Thanks for that, really really interesting on a first skim of the abstract. Going to take me some time to work my way through it!
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Old 12th January 2019, 02:34 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
...
I thought the impact of sex selective abortion in India, China, and elsewhere was well known. I am surprised to see people arguing against it here. ...
Another article: ...
I didn't say there was no effect. But the idea gender imbalance contributes to causing oppression of women as opposed to being the result is an unsupportable premise and it has not been supported here.
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Old 12th January 2019, 02:52 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I didn't say there was no effect. But the idea gender imbalance contributes to causing oppression of women as opposed to being the result is an unsupportable premise and it has not been supported here.
And it simply hasn't been available for long enough in India for it to have any bearing on the matter which the women in your opening post are protesting about.
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Old 12th January 2019, 04:17 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There is no counter-argument to nonsense.
Any time a position is advanced, an argument against that position is by definition a counter-argument, even if the original argument or position is nonsense.

There, I have just proven by demonstration (the above sentence) that there is indeed a counter-argument to nonsense (your post).
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Old 12th January 2019, 04:32 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And it simply hasn't been available for long enough in India for it to have any bearing on the matter which the women in your opening post are protesting about.
Fetal ultrasound was invented in the 1950's. It took a while before widespread adoption, but it isn't some new-fangled ultra high technology. And what was happening in the 1990s is what determined the male-female ratio of people now in their 20's, which is the prime age group to be acting up because of the imbalance. Go look at the stats and you'll see that in the 1990's, there was a significant and increasing child sex imbalance. Abortion and fetal ultrasound was not some alien thing by that point.

And in case the connection isn't quite clear enough, men in their 20's behaving badly absolutely has a bearing on the matter which the women in the opening post were protesting. It's not the only thing which does, but it's not irrelevant either.
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Old 12th January 2019, 05:53 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Fetal ultrasound was invented in the 1950's. It took a while before widespread adoption, but it isn't some new-fangled ultra high technology. And what was happening in the 1990s is what determined the male-female ratio of people now in their 20's, which is the prime age group to be acting up because of the imbalance. Go look at the stats and you'll see that in the 1990's, there was a significant and increasing child sex imbalance. Abortion and fetal ultrasound was not some alien thing by that point.

<snip>

Which suggests that it isn't abortion (which has been around for most if not all of human history) but the technological advance of the ability to determine the sex of a fetus which is the main cause of their problem.
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Old 13th January 2019, 12:53 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Which suggests that it isn't abortion (which has been around for most if not all of human history) but the technological advance of the ability to determine the sex of a fetus which is the main cause of their problem.
Ultrasound is an enabling technology, but the relevant act is still that abortion. And modern abortion methods are much more reliable than what existed even 100 years ago.
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