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Old 10th January 2019, 09:09 PM   #41
cullennz
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I have just come to the conclusion that Gender is what sex you feel like you are mentally.

Sex is what biological sex you were born as.

With some cross over when you have a very very small minority of people who are born intersex.

Though some far left for some reason have started to try to merge sex and gender as the same thing which gets on my tits a bit when I try to get sense out of them
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:10 PM   #42
Robin
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Okay, how about this:

"Robin is wondering whether she might be gender nonbinary."
"Robin is wondering whether he might be gender nonbinary."
"Robin is wondering whether they might be gender nonbinary."

Which of those three feels best to you? Which sounds more correct?
None of them sound either correct or incorrect unless I have some idea of what they are supposed to mean.

Even just a little hint.
Quote:
You're right - I don't understand what it's like to be gender nonbinary. I'm very binary - very much a man. I don't need "criteria" or "definitions" to tell me that I'm a man. I know it. I feel it. From what you're saying, you don't know as firmly and clearly as I do, which is why you're asking the question.
So you have always known you are a man although you don't even have a beginning of an idea about what "man" means?

Can you give me some idea of how being a man feels?
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:23 PM   #43
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post

Can you give me some idea of how being a man feels?
Best person to ask would probably be a trans male.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:33 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Though some far left for some reason have started to try to merge sex and gender as the same thing which gets on my tits a bit when I try to get sense out of them
Yeah, so far to the left we usually term them as Conservatives....
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:34 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
None of them sound either correct or incorrect unless I have some idea of what they are supposed to mean.

Even just a little hint.
Meaning is unimportant. You express the gender you feel. Does none of them feel like it refers to you? Do you feel an equal lack of affinity to all of them? Remember, gender isn't an intellectual decision. Gender is all about how you feel.

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So you have always known you are a man although you don't even have a beginning of an idea about what "man" means?

Can you give me some idea of how being a man feels?
I can tell you how I feel, but different people will describe it differently. Gender expression is a spectrum. I have always been at one end of the spectrum, but please do not take my experience as definitive for every person who identifies as male.

But okay, here we go. I know I am a man. I have male sexual characteristics such as a penis and body hair, but that's about my biology, not about my gender. I am sexually and romantically attracted to women, but that's about being heterosexual, not about my gender. Both contribute, however, to my feeling of being a man.

I have always thought of myself as male. In primary school, when we were told to line up in two lines - boys in one line, girls in the other, I always unhesitatingly went to the boys' line. From my earliest memories, I have known that girls were different from me. I have never felt the need to identify with girls. I grew up in the 70s, which was a far more sexist society than it is now, but I never wanted to wear clothes other than the boy's clothes my parents bought for me.

When I read "Where Did I Come From" in school, I was never uncertain about which role I would take when I was older. I always knew that I would be a father, not a mother. And it wasn't just that the father character in the book had a penis, and so did I. The idea that I might one day be a mother didn't even cross my mind. It was a thought that I never had.

I never thought about whether I was a boy or a girl. It wasn't a thought that it occurred to me I might have. I never needed to think about it. When society started talking about gender, what defines gender, and the fact that some people don't conform to binary gender roles, I never felt like that was something that was happening to me. I have always known what my gender was. It has never been in doubt. I was born a boy, I was raised a boy, I remained a boy until I became a man, and I have been a man since then, and will remain a man until I die.

I hope this gives some perspective on what it's like growing up being certain of one's gender.
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Last edited by arthwollipot; 10th January 2019 at 09:37 PM. Reason: better word
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:36 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Best person to ask would probably be a trans male.
A trans man will be able to tell you what it feels like to be a trans man. A cis man will be able to tell you what it feels like to be a cis man. And a nonbinary person will be able to tell you what it feels like to be nonbinary.
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:39 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Yeah, so far to the left we usually term them as Conservatives....
Far left/far right. They are all as annoying as each other
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:42 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
A trans man will be able to tell you what it feels like to be a trans man. A cis man will be able to tell you what it feels like to be a cis man. And a nonbinary person will be able to tell you what it feels like to be nonbinary.
I would have thought the point was they could tell you what it is like being in a womens body, when they feel they should have had a mans.

Hence the attempts to try to transform as much as poss into a male.

Ask them what makes them think they should have been male

I don't know any trans males who think they a neither one or the other (nonbinary)
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:43 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Why don't you start?
Try to start out by looking at generalisations in your society:

Are women more likely to like shopping for clothes while men shop for tools?
Are men more likely to socialise in the pub with alcohol while women socialise in the cafe with a cup of tea/coffee?
Are men more likely to play contact sports and women non-contact?
Are men more likely to insist that they can navigate without directions?
Are boys more likely to play with trucks and girls with dolls?
Are boys more likely to wear shirt and trousers while a girl wears a dress or skirt?

This isn't to say that all men fit in the "Ideal Masculine" Box and all women fit the "Ideal Feminine" Box, and not all people that do slide all the way over to the other box see themselves of that gender, but you are wanting to start somewhere, so these things are a great place to start from.

It just gets way more complex as you go deeper, and often the real answer is, after all of that, just that a person's gender is what they feel it is on a sub-conscious level. The traits we would measure that by are quite likely to be an expression of what it is that they feel that they are, rather than having some measurable and quantifiable biological reason for being.
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:44 PM   #50
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If you had asked me in primary school what is the difference between boys and girls I would have said that boys have a penis and girls have a vagina.

I don't think that I regarded the fact of lining up with the boys as being based on any other criterion than that.
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:50 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
If you had asked me in primary school what is the difference between boys and girls I would have said that boys have a penis and girls have a vagina.

I don't think that I regarded the fact of lining up with the boys as being based on any other criterion than that.
Probably why we don't use primary school kids opinions to explain gender
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:53 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Can you give me some idea of how being a man feels?
To get started, I'd suggest that you try to keep things separate in your mind as best as you can.

Sex = biological stuff, chromosomes, genitalia etc.
Gender = what you feel inside.
Sexual orientation = who do you see as attractive.

About being a man, as per your question above.

For me, it's this kind of stuff:

Feeling:

Strong,
Capable,
Assertive,
Competent,
Comfortable with using all kinds of tools including (hand tools, machinery, computers, vehicles, firearms, culinary equipment, etc.),
Desire to physically protect the people around me.

For a while, I suffered from testosterone poisoning (a former girlfriend's terminology) which meant that I wanted to beat the crap out of any man that stood anywhere near me. (Really unpleasant time, very glad it was a long time ago, almost impossible to think under those circumstances, eventually channeled all that stuff into martial arts.)

Now this is where things get complicated...

I've always seen myself as male and masculine, and been attracted to women since I was a child, but this is not necessarily how others see me.

As a teenager, I had men and women ask me if I'm male or female.

As a young adult, I worked with a couple of women from Argentina, and they described me as "macho" because I was polite, used to dress nicely, but remained utterly male and a "gentleman" at all times. They also used to praise me for how "safe" they felt around me, which I took as a serious compliment.

I've had three girlfriends who primarily saw themselves as lesbian.

One of whom said that she thought that I would always be attractive to women who were unsure about their own sexuality.

I have had a few gay friends, and still have a couple of gay friends, (I've lost a couple of friends to AIDS), and I can quite honestly say that their sexuality has ever bothered me in the slightest, and I've also never felt even the slightest twinge of desire for them...



In case it's not obvious from the above, I'm male.

(Six foot two, 120 kg, and ugly as a brick *********.)
(Other people don't agree with the last part, but I have to be honest with you, I cannot see what they see.)

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Old 10th January 2019, 09:55 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
If you had asked me in primary school what is the difference between boys and girls I would have said that boys have a penis and girls have a vagina.

I don't think that I regarded the fact of lining up with the boys as being based on any other criterion than that.
If I asked a kid in primary school to draw what an atom looks like, they'd probably give me an image that looks like the solar system model. It's simple and easy to understand and it works for 90% of people for their entire life, but it is wrong because it's a simplification of a much larger picture. Same thing with "boys and girls."
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:58 PM   #54
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You may have a penis.

You may have a vagina.

Just don't behave like an anus.
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:06 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This isn't to say that all men fit in the "Ideal Masculine" Box and all women fit the "Ideal Feminine" Box, and not all people that do slide all the way over to the other box see themselves of that gender, but you are wanting to start somewhere, so these things are a great place to start from.
It sounds more like a dead end than a great place to start from. Most of these are the kinds of stereotypes I have been running away from all my life. It seems silly to say that when I socialise in a coffee shop as I like to do that I am being feminine and when I shop for tools I am being masculine.
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:10 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
If I asked a kid in primary school to draw what an atom looks like, they'd probably give me an image that looks like the solar system model. It's simple and easy to understand and it works for 90% of people for their entire life, but it is wrong because it's a simplification of a much larger picture. Same thing with "boys and girls."
It was arthwollipot that used the "lining up at school" criterion, I was only responding to it.

You didn't seem to have a problem with him using this as an example of how he defines his gender. Suddenly it becomes a problem when I respond?

And I think that if I asked a physicist to tell me what an atom was she would make a better job of it than you lot trying to define gender.
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:12 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I would have thought the point was they could tell you what it is like being in a womens body, when they feel they should have had a mans.

Hence the attempts to try to transform as much as poss into a male.

Ask them what makes them think they should have been male

I don't know any trans males who think they a neither one or the other (nonbinary)
The terminology of the "wrong body" can be problematic. While you will find some trans people who say this, you'll also find many who say "this is my body, I am comfortable with it, it's the right body and I am a woman with a penis". The term transition can certainly refer to physical adjustments, but it also refers to social adjustments - the process of expressing one's correct gender to the world after a lifetime of expressing the wrong gender.

And yes, I know some nonbinary people.
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:14 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
It was arthwollipot that used the "lining up at school" criterion, I was only responding to it.

You didn't seem to have a problem with him using this as an example of how he defines his gender. Suddenly it becomes a problem when I respond?

And I think that if I asked a physicist to tell me what an atom was she would make a better job of it than you lot trying to define gender.
Maybe you could give it a go then.....
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:14 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Feeling:

Strong,
Capable,
Assertive,
Competent,
Comfortable with using all kinds of tools including (hand tools, machinery, computers, vehicles, firearms, culinary equipment, etc.),
Desire to physically protect the people around me.
Apart from the firearms part that might describe my mother and grandmother, so most of that I associate with femininity.
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:15 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Maybe you could give it a go then.....
I am not a physicist.

At least a physicist wouldn't tell me to describe an atom for them or tell me that it is just a matter of feeling.
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:16 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The terminology of the "wrong body" can be problematic. While you will find some trans people who say this, you'll also find many who say "this is my body, I am comfortable with it, it's the right body and I am a woman with a penis". The term transition can certainly refer to physical adjustments, but it also refers to social adjustments - the process of expressing one's correct gender to the world after a lifetime of expressing the wrong gender.

And yes, I know some nonbinary people.
Which is why they are probably the best person to ask why
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:18 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I am not a physicist.

At least a physicist wouldn't tell me to describe an atom for them or tell me that it is just a matter of feeling.
Nice try at diversion

But maybe you could offer your definition
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:23 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Nice try at diversion

But maybe you could offer your definition
How is that a diversion?

I said that I thought a physicist would be able to define an atom better than you have defined gender (which you have done in terms of current societal stereotypes).

So how is saying a physicist could do something a claim that I could do it????
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:24 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
It was arthwollipot that used the "lining up at school" criterion, I was only responding to it.

You didn't seem to have a problem with him using this as an example of how he defines his gender. Suddenly it becomes a problem when I respond?

And I think that if I asked a physicist to tell me what an atom was she would make a better job of it than you lot trying to define gender.
We're not the only sources of information about gender. In fact, we're probably not even the best. If you're concerned here's a free series of video lectures on the Psychology of Gender from the University of Houston. This is just one that I found by Googling, so I haven't sampled it for quality. I'm sure you can find others if you look for them.
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:26 PM   #65
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I imagine a physicist would describe an atom as a cluster of of protons normally with a set of electrons in various orbital configurations around it.

I know what you are getting at, no definition is perfect. But you haven't even given me an imperfect or a family resemblance definition.
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:26 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Apart from the firearms part that might describe my mother and grandmother, so most of that I associate with femininity.
Kind of describes my mother as well tbf.

If you went full Peterson it's males are more into "things" and women are more into "people" with a heap of cross over at the ends of the the bell curve.

Add in a bit of females are better communicators in good and bad ways and dudes are more assertive/aggressive in good and bad ways.

Tend to agree with him
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:28 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
We're not the only sources of information about gender. In fact, we're probably not even the best. If you're concerned here's a free series of video lectures on the Psychology of Gender from the University of Houston. This is just one that I found by Googling, so I haven't sampled it for quality. I'm sure you can find others if you look for them.
As I said I have googled it extensively. I have found all sorts of these things and they all seem to squib (as I pointed out earlier) on just what gender is.
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:33 PM   #68
cullennz
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If it helps in my former lives I have worked for years in the automotive industry sales with pretty much just dudes, and in a communications industry, where I was the only bloke (not doing the communication stuff obvious, IT help, because I am a crap communicator), and it is just a totally different environment.

Both I enjoyed

Probably more the later as a few of the women were very hot
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:49 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
As I said I have googled it extensively. I have found all sorts of these things and they all seem to squib (as I pointed out earlier) on just what gender is.
Well, it can be a difficult question for many people, as evidenced by the completely wrong tack I took at the beginning of our conversation. Good luck on your journey.
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Old 10th January 2019, 11:22 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
How is that a diversion?

I said that I thought a physicist would be able to define an atom better than you have defined gender (which you have done in terms of current societal stereotypes).

So how is saying a physicist could do something a claim that I could do it????
Missed this

I hadn't defined anything
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:19 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
<respectful snip for focus>

Sex = biological stuff, chromosomes, genitalia etc.
Gender = what you feel inside.
Sexual orientation = who do you see as attractive.


That's pretty much it. To answer your OP question, gender is a vague slippery term for what you feel like you are. As such, it is a qualia gig; it is largely subjective and has no clear definition beyond kinda sorta getting the gist of it. What is the definition of the taste of sugar? If you were able to pin it down to a more precise definition, it wouldn't be your subjective feeling anymore.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:29 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Sure. Whenever people use a word they always mean by it what the first dictionary definition you come across says.
I think the linked definition was pretty good, myself.

Personally I'd say gender is the expression of biological sex in a specific social context. Of course, you have exceptions e.g. gender disphoria, intersex, and we need to account for that. But for the vast majority you can use the simple definition.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:36 AM   #73
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There are different definitions for words in different fields. For example, the definition of utility used in economics doesn't appear in the dictionary.
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:02 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
It was arthwollipot that used the "lining up at school" criterion, I was only responding to it.

You didn't seem to have a problem with him using this as an example of how he defines his gender. Suddenly it becomes a problem when I respond?
I wasn't discussing this with arthwollipot, I was discussing it with you.

Quote:
And I think that if I asked a physicist to tell me what an atom was she would make a better job of it than you lot trying to define gender.
And an Anthropologist, in particular one that is interested in Gender studies, can probably tell you a lot more about what Gender is than random posters on a Skeptics board, most of who are not anthropologists, but rather for those in STEM are chemists, physicists, engineers, or software developers.

The best way would be to read up on papers by actual anthropologists in the field of gender studies, a lot of it is likely to go over your head, just as when I read up of listen to the latest findings in Quantum Mechanics, but after a while you might start to get a general idea.
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:16 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There are different definitions for words in different fields.
Thanks, Bob. I don't know what we'd do without you.
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:20 AM   #76
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The notion that gender is how you feel seems wrong to me. You can't know that how you feel is the same feeling others feel, any more than you can be certain we all see the same colors just because we agree on their names. I'd say gender is the set of characteristics that place you in a particular category that other people will use to treat you according to their cultural expectations. I'm male sex no matter how I dress or act, but if I made my appearance and actions such that other people would treat me as female that would be gender. I'd say gender is therefore purely cultural in perception and purely social in practice. What a given individual feels, in other words, is irrelevant yo gender. It's how other people treat them.
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:22 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Thanks, Bob. I don't know what we'd do without you.
Scroll less.
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:23 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The notion that gender is how you feel seems wrong to me. You can't know that how you feel is the same feeling others feel, any more than you can be certain we all see the same colors just because we agree on their names. I'd say gender is the set of characteristics that place you in a particular category that other people will use to treat you according to their cultural expectations.
That sounds reasonable.

Quote:
I'm male sex no matter how I dress or act, but if I made my appearance and actions such that other people would treat me as female that would be gender. I'd say gender is therefore purely cultural in perception and purely social in practice.
Not sure about that, however.

Quote:
What a given individual feels, in other words, is irrelevant yo gender.
Yo!
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:31 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yo!
As a manly masculine male man I type on phones by pecking with one finger. A manly finger, muscular and firm.
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:43 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
As a manly masculine male man I type on phones by pecking with one finger. A manly finger, muscular and firm.
Careful now. I'm not made of stone.
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