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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , donald trump , mental illness issues , psychiatry incidents , psychiatry issues , Trump controversies

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Old 9th February 2020, 07:22 PM   #201
xjx388
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Any mental illness in a person is his position is dangerous. Rational thought is a crucial part of the job.
Thatís ridiculous. If you accept the idea of being able to discern mental illness from afar, shrinks have told us that many Presidents have had some form of mental illness.

What you are basically saying is that we should discriminate against people based solely on if they are mentally ill. That doesnít sound right to me at all. Whatís important isnít whether or not a particular POTUS has a mental illness; itís the things they actually do while a candidate and in office. Actions, not perceived mental state.
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Old 9th February 2020, 11:20 PM   #202
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Old 9th February 2020, 11:48 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Any mental illness in a person is his position is dangerous. Rational thought is a crucial part of the job.
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Thatís ridiculous. If you accept the idea of being able to discern mental illness from afar, shrinks have told us that many Presidents have had some form of mental illness.

What you are basically saying is that we should discriminate against people based solely on if they are mentally ill. That doesnít sound right to me at all. Whatís important isnít whether or not a particular POTUS has a mental illness; itís the things they actually do while a candidate and in office. Actions, not perceived mental state.
How do you get from "in a person in his position" to "we should discriminate against people based solely on if they are mentally ill"?
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Old 10th February 2020, 09:03 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
How do you get from "in a person in his position" to "we should discriminate against people based solely on if they are mentally ill"?
The underlying idea is that people with mental illness are not suited to be President. I think that's overbroad and unfair to the vast majority of people with mental illness. We shouldn't be judging people based on a diagonsis; we should be judging people based on their actions and temperment. To say someone is dangerous simply because they've been diagnosed with a mental illness and therefore shouldn't be "a person in his position," is discriminatory.

Indeed, it's not even a standard that anyone has applied in the past (with one notable exception which lead to the Goldwater Rule) nor is it a standard anyone is actually going to apply going forward. One in five people have been diagnosed with a mental illness in the US; the actual prevalence is probably higher due to the stigma attached to it and people not seeking treatment. This means that among the 11 still active Democratic Party POTUS candidates, 2 or 3 of them probably have been diagnosed with a mental illness. Where's Duty to Warn when you need them?
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Old 10th February 2020, 09:16 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
One in five people have been diagnosed with a mental illness in the US ... This means that among the 11 still active Democratic Party POTUS candidates, 2 or 3 of them probably have been diagnosed with a mental illness.
That seems like a stretch. You're saying that the Dem candidates are just a representative sample of general society?
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Old 10th February 2020, 09:42 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
That seems like a stretch. You're saying that the Dem candidates are just a representative sample of general society?
Oh crap, you are right. I forgot to factor in that they were American politicians. Correction: more like 5 or 6 of them have been diagnosed with mental illness.
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Old 10th February 2020, 10:05 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Oh crap, you are right. I forgot to factor in that they were American politicians. Correction: more like 5 or 6 of them have been diagnosed with mental illness.
What you forgot is that this is a straw man argument. No one said mental illness was the issue. It's Trump's specific mental illness and how it is manifested that is the issue.
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Old 10th February 2020, 10:15 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What you forgot is that this is a straw man argument. No one said mental illness was the issue. It's Trump's specific mental illness and how it is manifested that is the issue.
Yup, there's a difference between having a mental illness that didn't affect their functioning too much - and might even have led to a particular drive and a complete disconnect from reality, which Trump seems to be displaying.
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Old 10th February 2020, 10:29 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What you forgot is that this is a straw man argument. No one said mental illness was the issue. It's Trump's specific mental illness and how it is manifested that is the issue.
Strawman? No.

The title of the thread is "Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' . . ."

You just said Trump's mental illness is the issue. You can't special plead your way out of the core problem here: mental illness is being used to explain the negative qualities and bad behavior of a public figure. If we ever hope to reduce the stigma associated with mental illness, we have to divorce "bad" and "dangerous" from "mentally ill."

Mental illness -and the way society views it- is indeed an issue here. You asked me awhile back to demonstrate the harm being done by the Yale Group and their public discussion of Trump. Here it is in black and white.
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Old 10th February 2020, 10:51 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Strawman? No.

The title of the thread is "Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' . . ."

You just said Trump's mental illness is the issue. You can't special plead your way out of the core problem here: mental illness is being used to explain the negative qualities and bad behavior of a public figure. If we ever hope to reduce the stigma associated with mental illness, we have to divorce "bad" and "dangerous" from "mentally ill."

Mental illness -and the way society views it- is indeed an issue here. You asked me awhile back to demonstrate the harm being done by the Yale Group and their public discussion of Trump. Here it is in black and white.
It's a straw man. Playing pedantic games with anytime someone mentioned mental illness instead of Trump's specific NPD doesn't make it not a straw man.

NO ONE IN THE THREAD OR IN DR LEE'S LINK HAS SAID ANY AND ALL MENTAL ILLNESS IS THE SAME. NO ONE!
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Old 10th February 2020, 11:18 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's a straw man. Playing pedantic games with anytime someone mentioned mental illness instead of Trump's specific NPD doesn't make it not a straw man.

NO ONE IN THE THREAD OR IN DR LEE'S LINK HAS SAID ANY AND ALL MENTAL ILLNESS IS THE SAME. NO ONE!
That was probably true right up until xjx388 said it.
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Old 10th February 2020, 11:20 AM   #212
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Is "being a crabby bunny" a mental illness? Because it seems to be spreading around! Can't we all just come together nicely to celebrate our president's obvious criminal insanity?
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Old 10th February 2020, 11:25 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Is "being a crabby bunny" a mental illness? Because it seems to be spreading around! Can't we all just come together nicely to celebrate our president's obvious criminal insanity?
Exactly. It seems that very few are saying that he is not insane and a criminal. Mostly his supporters are saying those are fine characteristics for a POTUS.
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Old 10th February 2020, 12:08 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Strawman? No.

The title of the thread is "Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' . . ."

You just said Trump's mental illness is the issue. You can't special plead your way out of the core problem here: mental illness is being used to explain the negative qualities and bad behavior of a public figure. If we ever hope to reduce the stigma associated with mental illness, we have to divorce "bad" and "dangerous" from "mentally ill."

Mental illness -and the way society views it- is indeed an issue here. You asked me awhile back to demonstrate the harm being done by the Yale Group and their public discussion of Trump. Here it is in black and white.
Trump's performance does indeed show him unsuited to commend or indeed being in charge of anything complex. He literally behaves like a preschooler during the national anthem. I have gathered that the flag and the national anthem are quite important in US culture - more so than in Britain, for example.

To be fair, recently his declining faculties have overshadowed his other character defects (which also made him unsuited to any position of power).

The thread title was that Trump has a dangerous mental illness. The implication is that there are non-dangerous mental illnesses as well - which is true. There are many that cause distress to the sufferer but aren't generally dangerous to them or anyone else.

However, having a demented Commander in Chief doesn't seem to be an unequivocally brilliant idea.
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Old 10th February 2020, 12:13 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
.....
Mental illness -and the way society views it- is indeed an issue here. You asked me awhile back to demonstrate the harm being done by the Yale Group and their public discussion of Trump. Here it is in black and white.
"Mental illness" covers a lot of ground, and includes a lot of attitudes and behaviors that don't interfere with rational thought or functioning. But mental health is a legitimate requirement for many jobs. Law enforcement applicants are usually required to pass a psychological screening, and are subject to monitoring throughout their careers. Psychological screening is a basic part of applying for and keeping a government security clearance. Many employers administer the MMPI or other screening tools. And the officers who control nuclear weapons are subject to the most intense screening and continuous monitoring.

Trump couldn't pass any of it. That might not matter for a NYC real estate hustler or a TV reality star. But that's not where Trump sits today.
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Old 10th February 2020, 12:16 PM   #216
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I'm still waiting for someone to articulate the danger we're supposed to be concerned about.

Dr Lee has unequivocally called for the immediate removal of the President from office, on account of the danger he poses. I'd like to see some more in-depth analysis of what this danger is likely to be, why it hasn't manifested yet, and what's likely to cause it to manifest.

NPD is a reasonably well-understood condition, isn't it? A confident diagnosis of NPD should enable strong predictions about behavior. And not just typical hot-reading stuff like "he'll continue to say stupid stuff on Twitter." Actual medical insights not readily accessible to lay observers.
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Old 10th February 2020, 12:49 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's a straw man. Playing pedantic games with anytime someone mentioned mental illness instead of Trump's specific NPD doesn't make it not a straw man.

NO ONE IN THE THREAD OR IN DR LEE'S LINK HAS SAID ANY AND ALL MENTAL ILLNESS IS THE SAME. NO ONE!


No one has said it? Everyone is linking mental illness to Trumpís negative qualities. Why is Trump dangerous? Because heís mentally ill. Itís the linking of mental illness to negative qualities thatís the problem.

Why do you need to mention mental illness at all? Why not just argue that heís dangerous because of his ignorance, incompetence, etc?
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Old 10th February 2020, 12:55 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by xjx388
Why do you need to mention mental illness at all? Why not just argue that heís dangerous because of his ignorance, incompetence, etc?

Why avoid mentioning one of the reasons he is dangerous?
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Old 10th February 2020, 01:14 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Why avoid mentioning one of the reasons he is dangerous?
Because being mentally ill isn't actually what makes him dangerous.

Mentally ill does not equate to dangerous. It's a stereotype.
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Old 10th February 2020, 01:32 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Why avoid mentioning one of the reasons he is dangerous?
Because being mentally ill isn't actually what makes him dangerous.

Mentally ill does not equate to dangerous. It's a stereotype.
Please stop with the vapours.

It's not a generic mental illness that is the problem, it's the fact that the Commander in Chief is supposed to take difficult decisions with complex geopolitical ramifications that affect the lives of Americans in dangerous parts of the world. Trump literally behaved like a preschooler during the national anthem - that's a sign that something is very wrong with his mind.
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Old 10th February 2020, 01:33 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Mentally ill does not equate to dangerous. It's a stereotype.

And the sky isn't always blue. Just google "dangerous mental illness" and you'll see mental illness can and does cause violent behavior. It also causes a wide range of other dangerous behavior such as driving when you aren't capable. Yes, not all mental illnesses lead directly to dangerous behavior but they certainly can and do.
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Old 10th February 2020, 01:43 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Because being mentally ill isn't actually what makes him dangerous.

Mentally ill does not equate to dangerous. It's a stereotype.
I suppose there is a good point here. I've seen it suggested that one has to be a little crazy to want to be president at all, and one could argue that a brilliant sociopath or sufferer from something classified as a mental illness could still be an effective president. We've had a few depressives, I think. Unfortunately, I think the reality is that Trump is a fool, and always has been. Long before anyone saw evidence of mental decline, critics thought him a self-aggrandizing jerk, and joked about what a bad president he'd be. In his case the evidence of his mental incompetency simply amplifies the wrong things. There's some recreational interest in trying to analyze his nuttiness and quantify the mental deterioration that I think should be obvious to anyone who actually pays attention, but in the end the reason he's a bad president is that he's a ***** idiot who at his best was always unfit for the job. His obvious loss of acuity and aphasia just make his habit of stupidity and lies harder to miss.

I wonder when, if ever, his supporters will find it impossible even for them to pass over his gaffes and infantilisms. At some point, one would imagine, people will look back at this and say "what was I thinking?" but apparently we must fall further down the hole first. I picture Trump with sharpie in hand drawing a mustache on Obama's official portrait and Moscow Mitch and his cronies complimenting him on his creative prowess.
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Old 10th February 2020, 01:51 PM   #223
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One thing so far, he hasn't invaded any other countries or ordered pre-emptive strikes, nuclear or otherwise. The nukes thing is the most obvious danger he presents. But if Trump is rapidly deteriorating cognitively, is he even capable of observing whatever protocol must be observed to launch a nuclear weapon? I'm not sure he can just call up the Pentagon and order it to nuke Tehran. I know the "football" is supposedly with him at all times, but what does that entail? Someone would need to at a minimum input GPS coordinates and pick which bomb(s) to drop.

Is he even capable of issuing coherent orders?

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Old 10th February 2020, 02:04 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
And the sky isn't always blue. Just google "dangerous mental illness" and you'll see mental illness can and does cause violent behavior. It also causes a wide range of other dangerous behavior such as driving when you aren't capable. Yes, not all mental illnesses lead directly to dangerous behavior but they certainly can and do.
Not all mental illness causes violent behavior, though. And we haven't really seen violent behavior from President Trump. What's the most violent thing he's done? Yell at reporters? Kill terrorists?

If the Yale Group is right, we should be seeing regular violent outbursts, with a clearly worsening trend. But we're not. All of the "evidence" presented so far, of Trump's allegedly dangerous mental illness, hasn't shown any danger. The diction, the grammar and syntax, the facial expressions, the hair... Tell yourself this proves he's crazy, if you like. But don't pretend it proves he's dangerous.

Vote him out in November for being a bad president.

Impeach him for high crimes and misdemeanors, if you can manage it.

Start 25th Amendment proceedings because he's dangerously crazy? That just makes Dr Lee look like a clown. An unethical clown.

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Old 10th February 2020, 02:06 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Please stop with the vapours.

It's not a generic mental illness that is the problem,
Then why is there a long running thread with people telling me how obvious it is that Trump has a mental illness? Weird.
Quote:
it's the fact that the Commander in Chief is supposed to take difficult decisions with complex geopolitical ramifications that affect the lives of Americans in dangerous parts of the world. Trump literally behaved like a preschooler during the national anthem - that's a sign that something is very wrong with his mind.
Eh. It's a sign that he's a childish fool. You didn't really need to invoke the mental illness angle in order to make your point, which is really: It's not good to have a childish fool as POTUS. And I totally agree with that point.

What I don't agree with is using the medical profession and illness to attack someone.
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Old 10th February 2020, 02:07 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not all mental illness causes violent behavior, though. And we haven't really seen violent behavior from President Trump. What's the most violent thing he's done? Yelled at reporters? Kill terrorists?

If the Yale Group is right, we should be seeing regular violent outbursts, with a clearly worsening trend. But we're not. All of the "evidence" presented so far, of Trump's allegedly dangerous mental illness, hasn't shown any danger. The diction, the grammar and syntax, the facial expressions, the hair... Tell yourself this proves he's crazy, if you like. But don't pretend it proves he's dangerous.

Vote him out in November for being a bad president.

Impeach him for high crimes and misdemeanors, if you can manage it.

Start 25th Amendment proceedings because he's dangerously crazy? That just makes Dr Lee look like a clown. An unethical clown.
There was Ivana's sworn deposition that he raped her in a fit of rage in 1990.
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Old 10th February 2020, 02:07 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm still waiting for someone to articulate the danger we're supposed to be concerned about.

Dr Lee has unequivocally called for the immediate removal of the President from office, on account of the danger he poses. I'd like to see some more in-depth analysis of what this danger is likely to be, why it hasn't manifested yet, and what's likely to cause it to manifest.

NPD is a reasonably well-understood condition, isn't it? A confident diagnosis of NPD should enable strong predictions about behavior. And not just typical hot-reading stuff like "he'll continue to say stupid stuff on Twitter." Actual medical insights not readily accessible to lay observers.

What makes you think it hasn't manifested yet? Just because you ignore problematic issues with Trump's presidency that doesn't mean there are no problematic issues with Trump's presidency.
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Old 10th February 2020, 02:10 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
What makes you think it hasn't manifested yet? Just because you ignore problematic issues with Trump's presidency that doesn't mean there are no problematic issues with Trump's presidency.
Please illustrate how the danger has manifested. Don't argue politics; tell us something dangerous he has done. Dangerous in the sense that a mental health professional would mean.
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Old 10th February 2020, 02:11 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm still waiting for someone to articulate the danger we're supposed to be concerned about.
Currently he believes the new coronavirus will disappear in the summer.

Once again he has no clue it is summer in half the planet now. And he has ignorant ideas about pandemics. His NPD leads him to rely on his 'greatest knowledge of all time'. He is not likely to rely on experts at the CDC, which he also demonstrated when a few cases of ebola spread.

We may very possibly be in big trouble if he interferes with the public health response to the pandemic.


Quote:
NPD is a reasonably well-understood condition, isn't it? A confident diagnosis of NPD should enable strong predictions about behavior. And not just typical hot-reading stuff like "he'll continue to say stupid stuff on Twitter." Actual medical insights not readily accessible to lay observers.
We have that. You may not be paying attention.
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Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 10th February 2020, 02:15 PM   #230
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by xjx
Mentally ill does not equate to dangerous. It's a stereotype.
We all know that.

You are willfully refusing to recognize your straw man. [/discussion]
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 10th February 2020, 02:27 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
What makes you think it hasn't manifested yet? Just because you ignore problematic issues with Trump's presidency that doesn't mean there are no problematic issues with Trump's presidency.
I'm talking specifically about violence and danger. A "problematic" administration can be removed through elections or impeachment.

Dr Lee is calling for Trump's immediate removal, under the 25th amendment, because of how dangerous he supposedly is. I'm not seeing that degree of danger in his behavior, past or present.
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Old 10th February 2020, 02:29 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Then why is there a long running thread with people telling me how obvious it is that Trump has a mental illness? Weird. Eh. It's a sign that he's a childish fool. You didn't really need to invoke the mental illness angle in order to make your point, which is really: It's not good to have a childish fool as POTUS. And I totally agree with that point.

What I don't agree with is using the medical profession and illness to attack someone.
The anthem moment seemed a lot worse to me than childish behavior. It was the inability to maintain even minimal decorum for a 2-minute song. Was he flouting the rules? Or has he forgotten them?
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Old 10th February 2020, 02:32 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
The anthem moment seemed a lot worse to me than childish behavior. It was the inability to maintain even minimal decorum for a 2-minute song. Was he flouting the rules? Or has he forgotten them?
Exactly. The President of the United States sometimes seems to have a similar level of understanding of appropriate behaviour to a preschooler.
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Old 10th February 2020, 02:50 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
We all know that.

You are willfully refusing to recognize your straw man. [/discussion]
If you know that, you are doing a poor job demonstrating it.

Trump is ignorant and incompetent. He probably colluded with foreign actors to enhance his election chances, he obstructed justice, he used campaign funds to pay off a woman he slept with, he used his authority to attack political rivals and he demonstrably has no sense of respect for the office he holds. Those actions? That's more than enough to make a case against him. What does mental illness add to the argument? As you say, you know that mental illness does not equal dangerous. I assume you also know that mental illness doesn't make a person bad or evil. Therefore, adding mental illness into the mix does not make a good case for his dangerousness or for his badness. All of those actions I outlined above would be bad whether or not he has a mental illness.

Yet here you are, continuing to insist that it's his specific mental illness that makes him dangerous/bad. You are refusing to see that, simply by putting "mental illness" and "dangerous" together to attack Trump, you are equating those two things.
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Old 10th February 2020, 02:57 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Exactly. The President of the United States sometimes seems to have a similar level of understanding of appropriate behaviour to a preschooler.

Interestingly, people who work for him feel the same way.
Quote:
"He's like a bull seeing red," this person added. "There's just no getting through to him, and you can kiss your plans for the day goodbye because you're basically stuck looking after a 4-year-old now."
https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...an-2019-9?op=1

And there's this:
Quote:
And therein lies the key: the core Trump dissonance is that heís an elderly man who possesses the outward appearance and trappings of adulthoodóand who occupies the public role we most strongly associate with adulthoodóbut who is on the inside predominantly infantile. It is that specific dissonance that is wholly novel on the political scene.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...-four-year-old
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Old 10th February 2020, 02:59 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You are refusing to see that, simply by putting "mental illness" and "dangerous" together to attack Trump, you are equating those two things.

No, we'd be equating them if we didn't have to add the "dangerous" adjective.
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Old 10th February 2020, 02:59 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Please illustrate how the danger has manifested. Don't argue politics; tell us something dangerous he has done. Dangerous in the sense that a mental health professional would mean.

I would say an inability to learn from (or even acknowledge) his mistakes, along with a refusal to atone for his mistakes (such as firing people that testified against him) are dangerous abuses of our political systems.

Nitpicking in 3,2,.....

Last edited by Cabbage; 10th February 2020 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 10th February 2020, 03:00 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm talking specifically about violence and danger. A "problematic" administration can be removed through elections or impeachment.

Oh, I see your mistake, then: You're hung up on the idea that danger must necessarily imply "violent".

It doesn't.



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Old 10th February 2020, 03:07 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Oh, I see your mistake, then: You're hung up on the idea that danger must necessarily imply "violent".

It doesn't.



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But [ETA: anyway] his first wife gave a sworn deposition that he was violent
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by jimbob; 10th February 2020 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 10th February 2020, 03:11 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Oh, I see your mistake, then: You're hung up on the idea that danger must necessarily imply "violent".

It doesn't.



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He does not seem averse to providing classified US info to other governments. I suggest that could be dangerous without being violent.
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