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Tags 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 14th March 2020, 02:24 AM   #361
The Atheist
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
BINGO! EXACTLY! SPOT-ON!

SG, you're not missing the forest for the trees, you're missing the whole planet. The "mess" is decades of American corporate kleptocracy. We live in a plutocracy now and Trump, despite being a plutocrat himself, was able to convince large numbers of people that he was an advocate the the "little guy". That "mess is real and needs to be cleaned up.

The Democrats, while claiming to be supporters of the middle class, have done almost as much as the GOP in contributing to this mess. Until their rhetoric and policies reflect a recognition of the fact of our plutocracy, they will remain in trouble.

That is why I am a Warren man. She explicitly recognizes the problem and knows what to do about it. The others, not so much.
Bravo!

I'd call it perfect if that word weren't tainted forever with the stench of having come out of the mouth of that orange thing you have as President.

That's the one that isn't self-isolating despite having been standing next to at least one confirmed case.

Did he sound like he had a bit of a sore throat today, or was that just the fear coming through?
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Old 14th March 2020, 06:22 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
In 2016 [...] a hated technocrat that hardly deigned to acknowledge the problem
In fairness to Clinton, she did acknowledge the problems. Her take on the coal belt, for instance, was to give the hard truth head-on: coal is dying, and coal towns need to find something else to do before they die with it.

She was just crap at selling it, because they didn't want to hear that. They wanted a politician to blow sunshine so far up their ass it'd clear out all that black lung.
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Old 14th March 2020, 10:12 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I see nobody is even going to pretend like I made those comments in the context of pushing back against the idea the Return to Normal might not be as appealing to everyone as its proponents imagine.
Normal looks OK to me, but then, I'm 60. I would prefer to see a sustainable planet, though, and IMO that will require a global "redistribution" of wealth in the form of more opportunities for the very poor. That's why I bring up the planet thing. I'm not totally a zero-sum person, but there's an element of that ... meaning a modest dip in living standards in the U.S. is acceptable to me, if it means people elsewhere are getting opportunities.
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Old 14th March 2020, 12:40 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
In fairness to Clinton, she did acknowledge the problems. Her take on the coal belt, for instance, was to give the hard truth head-on: coal is dying, and coal towns need to find something else to do before they die with it.

She was just crap at selling it, because they didn't want to hear that. They wanted a politician to blow sunshine so far up their ass it'd clear out all that black lung.
THAT!
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Old 14th March 2020, 01:21 PM   #365
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Mmm. A bit of good Biden news.

Biden is endorsing Warren's Bankruptcy Plan.

Given that it is, as noted -

Quote:
That's a significant shift, as the proposal would largely undo the 2005 bankruptcy bill the two clashed over in Congress.
That's a pretty big move.
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Old 14th March 2020, 01:35 PM   #366
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It's bleakly amusing when I see disagreements between the extra-pure and extra-super-pure.

Quote:
Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) turned down repeated requests from Bernie Sanders’ presidential campaign to appear at events promoting the Vermont senator’s candidacy in recent weeks, according to three people familiar with the discussions
...
Ocasio-Cortez ― already annoyed with the campaign’s Jan. 23 decision to publicize the endorsement of controversial podcast host Joe Rogan ― grew less interested in helping Sanders’ campaign
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Old 14th March 2020, 02:17 PM   #367
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I think the term is "extra virgin".

Seriously, though, I think AOC probably has the right strategy here. Bernie's had a whole career in politics, to sell his brand of revolutionary progressivism. It's not like he was going to be able to do any of it, even if he had somehow gotten elected. He's on his way out, and AOC doesn't need to tie her fortunes to his swan song presidential campaign. She's still got her whole career in politics ahead of her. Backing Bernie right now doesn't do her brand of revolutionary progressivism any favors. Better to bide her time and build up her base.

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Old 14th March 2020, 02:43 PM   #368
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I wonder if anybody is going to pay much attention to tommorow's debate with the virus domnating all the news cycles.
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Old 14th March 2020, 02:48 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I wonder if anybody is going to pay much attention to tommorow's debate with the virus domnating all the news cycles.
I assume they're going to try to make the debate relevant by talking about C19 the entire time.

Biden: "You know, for the past 50 years I've been thinking we need a better epidemic management infrastructure at the federal level. Now is the time to actually do something about it."

Sanders: "If you elect me, I will nationalize the means of hand sanitizer production!"

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Old 14th March 2020, 03:29 PM   #370
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Re: AOC not campaigning more for Sanders...
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think the term is "extra virgin".

Seriously, though, I think AOC probably has the right strategy here. Bernie's had a whole career in politics, to sell his brand of revolutionary progressivism. It's not like he was going to be able to do any of it, even if he had somehow gotten elected. He's on his way out, and AOC doesn't need to tie her fortunes to his swan song presidential campaign. She's still got her whole career in politics ahead of her. Backing Bernie right now doesn't do her brand of revolutionary progressivism any favors. Better to bide her time and build up her base.
But she's already endorsed Sanders. Its not like that bell can be un-rung, so spending additional time campaigning for him wouldn't necessarily cause any more damage to her career long-term.

Maybe she is smart and pragmatic enough to realize that the best course of action is for the Democrats to present a united front (and then push for her progressive policies from the inside), and having Sanders continue further into the primaries is ultimately harmful.
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Old 14th March 2020, 03:48 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Re: AOC not campaigning more for Sanders...

But she's already endorsed Sanders. Its not like that bell can be un-rung, so spending additional time campaigning for him wouldn't necessarily cause any more damage to her career long-term.

Maybe she is smart and pragmatic enough to realize that the best course of action is for the Democrats to present a united front (and then push for her progressive policies from the inside), and having Sanders continue further into the primaries is ultimately harmful.
Alternately, of course... she is a busy woman, regardless, and, to be clear, campaigning for Bernie isn't even remotely her job. She's already done the most effective things that she can do for him and has lots of other things on her plate, including her notable efforts to get more progressives elected in lower profile races.

That Bernie's chances look rather slim right now does likely play into considerations of where to spend her limited time, but I would definitely not take it as a sign of her being afraid of damaging her long-term career by campaigning more for him.
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Old 14th March 2020, 04:42 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
If this is your rationale for why Trump was elected, we live on different planets. Yes, much of that is true. No, it is not why Trump got elected. If anything it's the opposite, corporate interference is exactly how we got incompetrump.
Much of my post is true but is the "opposite" of why Trump got elected? Yep, You live where I've never been

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Warren is out of the race in case you missed that memo.
Golly, gee whiz, thanks for the update.
But I can still be a supporter.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Time to suck it up and stop promoting the belief Biden and Trump are the same.
Time to suck it up and stop reading into posts content that just isn't there. I challenge you to find where I gave even the slightest hint that I think Biden and Trump are the same. Go ahead; do it. Make a fool out of me ... or yourself.
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Old 14th March 2020, 06:52 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
In fairness to Clinton, she did acknowledge the problems. Her take on the coal belt, for instance, was to give the hard truth head-on: coal is dying, and coal towns need to find something else to do before they die with it.

She was just crap at selling it, because they didn't want to hear that. They wanted a politician to blow sunshine so far up their ass it'd clear out all that black lung.
Total crap marketing, letting the clip of her saying coal jobs would be gone without pointing out the next sentence was: "Which is why we need a program for retraining..."
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Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 14th March 2020, 07:24 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Total crap marketing, letting the clip of her saying coal jobs would be gone without pointing out the next sentence was: "Which is why we need a program for retraining..."
So true. I believed then, and I continue to believe, that HRC would have made a far superior president to Trump. But then again, so would a lice picking, butt scratching baboon.
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Old 14th March 2020, 07:40 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Total crap marketing, letting the clip of her saying coal jobs would be gone without pointing out the next sentence was: "Which is why we need a program for retraining..."
But what she said was "we're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business," as if it was her master plan. Once she said that nobody heard anything else. If she had said something like "You know your industry is shrinking, here and around the world, through no fault of your own, and I will bring new industries and new jobs to the hard-working people of West Virginia."

Sure, she said more. She should have said it first. Unforced error. Clueless insensitivity. At least she didn't call the miners "deplorable."
https://www.npr.org/2016/05/03/47648...-and-coal-jobs
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Old 14th March 2020, 07:41 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Much of my post is true but is the "opposite" of why Trump got elected? Yep, You live where I've never been
Are You Inadvertently Supporting Trump’s Re-election?
Quote:
Earlier this month, the internet went into boycott mode after it was revealed that American businessman Stephen Ross was throwing a $250,000-per-ticket fundraiser to raise money for U.S. President Trump’s re-election campaign, reportedly collecting around $12 million. Ross, who has a current net worth of around $7.7 billion, is an investor in dozens of well-known companies.

But Ross is far from the only tycoon whose politics are prompting protests—a surprising number of businesses are financially tied to the 45th president in some way. And a lot of their businesses operate in Canada, too. Here are 15 U.S. brands that operate in Canada and donate to Trump’s campaign.
Top 10 Donors to Trump's 2016 Campaign
Quote:
1. Robert Mercer, Renaissance Technologies - $13.5 million ...

2. Sheldon Adelson and Miriam Adelson, Las Vegas Sands Corporation (LVS) - $10 million...

3. Linda McMahon, World Wrestling Entertainment Inc. (WWE) - $6 million ...

4. Bernard Marcus, Retired - $7 million ...

5. Geoffrey Palmer, G.H. Palmer Associates - $2 million ...

6. Ronald M Cameron, Mountaire Corp. - $2 million ...

7. Peter Thiel, Palantir Technologies - $1.25 million ...Thiel is also a director at Facebook (FB). ....

8. Walter Buckley Jr, Actua Corporation (ACTA) - $1 million ...

9. Cherna Moskowitz, Hawaiian Gardens Casino - $1 million ...

10. Peter Zieve, Electroimpact - $1 million ...


Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Time to suck it up and stop reading into posts content that just isn't there. I challenge you to find where I gave even the slightest hint that I think Biden and Trump are the same. Go ahead; do it. Make a fool out of me ... or yourself.
That is how I interpret this:
Quote:
The "mess" is decades of American corporate kleptocracy. We live in a plutocracy now and Trump, despite being a plutocrat himself, was able to convince large numbers of people that he was an advocate the the "little guy". That "mess is real and needs to be cleaned up.

The Democrats, while claiming to be supporters of the middle class, have done almost as much as the GOP in contributing to this mess. Until their rhetoric and policies reflect a recognition of the fact of our plutocracy, they will remain in trouble.
Maybe you meant something else. But it sounds to me like you see no difference between the Democratic or Republican Parties that gave us Trump.

And if one believes the Democratic Party led to Trump and Biden is a return to the same policies ...
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 14th March 2020, 07:43 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But what she said was "we're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business," as if it was her master plan. Once she said that nobody heard anything else. ...
No one heard anything else because the GOP made a soundbite out of that half of what she said and she did nothing to counter the sound bite.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 14th March 2020, 07:43 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
So true. I believed then, and I continue to believe, that HRC would have made a far superior president to Trump. But then again, so would a lice picking, butt scratching baboon.
Of course she would have. So would any of the other Repub candidates, whose ineptitude facilitated his rise. But here we are.
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Old 14th March 2020, 07:56 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No one heard anything else because the GOP made a soundbite out of that half of what she said and she did nothing to counter the sound bite.
After 30+ years in politics, she should have known better than to say "we" if that's not what she meant. She handed a prize to the Repubs. They had no obligation to help her out.
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Old 14th March 2020, 11:05 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Does thsi complaint apply equally to Sanders?
No because Sanders has been more or less consistent in his message and beliefs and this is backed by his words and actions over his lifetime. It's why so many progressives like him.
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Old 14th March 2020, 11:32 PM   #381
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Also I'm calling it now. Much to my dismay Trump will win in 2020. Anyone is free to do a one month avatar bet if you feel otherwise. First come first serve as only one bet will be taken.
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Old 14th March 2020, 11:38 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Also I'm calling it now. Much to my dismay Trump will win in 2020. Anyone is free to do a one month avatar bet if you feel otherwise. First come first serve as only one bet will be taken.
After 2016, I've learned never to try and guess what the American electorate, coupled with the EC, will do.
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Old 15th March 2020, 12:19 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Also I'm calling it now. Much to my dismay Trump will win in 2020. Anyone is free to do a one month avatar bet if you feel otherwise. First come first serve as only one bet will be taken.
I would do a lesser bet that the election outcome won't be decided until after 2020.
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Old 15th March 2020, 12:20 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
After 2016, I've learned never to try and guess what the American electorate, coupled with the EC, will do.
Yeah I'm no psychic and I can certainly be wrong. But I feel certain enough that I'm willing to bet one months worth of avatar on it. I've just largely lost faith in the American populace in general to not be swayed by ******** and thus they will continue to shoot themselves in the foot
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Old 15th March 2020, 09:02 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Total crap marketing, letting the clip of her saying coal jobs would be gone without pointing out the next sentence was: "Which is why we need a program for retraining..."
Have there been any successful large-scale retraining programs, for the workforce of a dying industry?

When the longshore jobs were obsoleted by containerized shipping in the 70s, how many longshoremen were retrained into other jobs as good as the jobs they'd lost?

When steelwork and automaking left Detroit, how many Detroit steelworkers and automobile assembly line workers got retrained into jobs as good or better?

How active and effective were those workers' unions, in enabling and supporting the transition?

Not that it matters much now, but I suddenly realized I have no idea what kind of retraining program Hillary had planned for coal miners, nor whether it was based on similar plans from previous events of a similar nature.
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Old 15th March 2020, 09:08 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No one heard anything else because the GOP made a soundbite out of that half of what she said and she did nothing to counter the sound bite.
Was it accurate, though? Did she really say, "we're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business"?

Maybe she didn't counter the sound bite because she didn't want to dilute her message and depress progressive turnout in swing states. Maybe the voters she was actually talking to wanted to hear that she planned to put coal miners out of work.
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Old 15th March 2020, 09:52 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Have there been any successful large-scale retraining programs, for the workforce of a dying industry?

When the longshore jobs were obsoleted by containerized shipping in the 70s, how many longshoremen were retrained into other jobs as good as the jobs they'd lost?

When steelwork and automaking left Detroit, how many Detroit steelworkers and automobile assembly line workers got retrained into jobs as good or better?

How active and effective were those workers' unions, in enabling and supporting the transition?

Not that it matters much now, but I suddenly realized I have no idea what kind of retraining program Hillary had planned for coal miners, nor whether it was based on similar plans from previous events of a similar nature.
Most"retraining" programs are based on an extended time on the dole with community college courses as the stick.
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Old 15th March 2020, 10:15 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Most"retraining" programs are based on an extended time on the dole with community college courses as the stick.
A lot of times the details are light in the actual bill that gets written.

SOP seems to be block grants to state and local governments (local solutions for local variations of the problems created). Natually this gets quickly folded into the general fund and since these things tend to happen in an economic downturn, we apply the proven wisdom (*cough*) of tax cuts for "job creators" and fiscal austerity/reduction of services.

Maybe the first half a dozen times this promise was made it was well-intended. But certainly during the latter half of my life thus far, anyone who says this goes into my list of people who are full of **** and they know it.

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Old 15th March 2020, 11:18 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Yeah I'm no psychic and I can certainly be wrong. But I feel certain enough that I'm willing to bet one months worth of avatar on it. I've just largely lost faith in the American populace in general to not be swayed by ******** and thus they will continue to shoot themselves in the foot
Interesting how the Brenie Bors have turned on the American people since it became clear that Bernie would not get the nomination. They sound like an Inner Party member talking about the Proles in Orwell's "1984".
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Old 15th March 2020, 11:20 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Interesting how the Brenie Bors have turned on the American people since it became clear that Bernie would not get the nomination. They sound like an Inner Party member talking about the Proles in Orwell's "1984".
Or maybe it is a single poster on an obscure forum just voicing a lone opinion.
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Old 15th March 2020, 11:57 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Also I'm calling it now. Much to my dismay Trump will win in 2020. Anyone is free to do a one month avatar bet if you feel otherwise. First come first serve as only one bet will be taken.
I started a thread saying that three weeks ago. So not betting with you!
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Old 15th March 2020, 12:05 PM   #392
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I started a thread saying that three weeks ago. So not betting with you!
I think the Corona virus is chainging everything..and not in Trump's favor.
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Old 15th March 2020, 02:20 PM   #393
Aridas
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think the Corona virus is chainging everything..and not in Trump's favor.
Assuming the likely scenario that it's going to get much worse, very soon, yeah.
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Old 15th March 2020, 02:55 PM   #394
Aridas
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And... Biden's reaching out to Bernie supporters more.

Quote:
Bernie has put forward a plan that would make public colleges and universities free for families whose income is below $125,000. It's a good idea, and after consideration, I am proud to add it to my platform.
And the reaction? Seems to be mostly calling BS on that claim. What Biden is adopting seems to be more like what Buttigieg and Hillary put forth. Bernie's is free for ALL.

It's still a step in the left direction, though.
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Old 15th March 2020, 03:00 PM   #395
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More important than whether it's more like Bernie's or someone else's, there's the fact that he doesn't mean it.
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Old 15th March 2020, 03:03 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
....
Maybe the first half a dozen times this promise was made it was well-intended. But certainly during the latter half of my life thus far, anyone who says this goes into my list of people who are full of **** and they know it.
But it's not like all WVa coal miners (or auto workers or steel workers etc.) are all going to happily enter some other prosperous industry together. Extended benefits and classroom education allow each worker a chance to find something that best suits him. It's up to him to make the most of it. Maybe they should be more generous, but the fact that somebody went to work in the mines or the mills at age 18 because it was the best choice he had then doesn't mean the society owes him a lifetime of great pay and union perks. Why is he entitled to more help than anyone else who's laid off in a changing economy?

And Clinton did have a plan.
Quote:
Hillary Clinton has a $30 billion, 4,300-word plan to retrain coal workers that covers everything from education and infrastructure to tax credits and school funding.
....
“The Clinton plan is consistent in what we need to do and is in keeping with what other countries around the world are doing,” Edward Cameron, a policy lead at the nonprofit corporate environmental coalition We Mean Business, told HuffPost. “Even as we transition away from coal, we need to protect and safeguard coal communities by giving them different types of livelihood options than before.”
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump...b016f37896bf10
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Old 15th March 2020, 03:11 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I would do a lesser bet that the election outcome won't be decided until after 2020.
Do you mean there will be recounts in critical states, or it goes into the House, or what?
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Old 15th March 2020, 03:35 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But it's not like all WVa coal miners (or auto workers or steel workers etc.) are all going to happily enter some other prosperous industry together. Extended benefits and classroom education allow each worker a chance to find something that best suits him. It's up to him to make the most of it. Maybe they should be more generous, but the fact that somebody went to work in the mines or the mills at age 18 because it was the best choice he had then doesn't mean the society owes him a lifetime of great pay and union perks. Why is he entitled to more help than anyone else who's laid off in a changing economy?



And Clinton did have a plan.



https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump...b016f37896bf10
I'm not knocking the plans themselves.

I don't believe they will see the light of day after bouncing around several branches of several layers of government.
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Old 15th March 2020, 04:56 PM   #399
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Will a Medicare-for-All plan or something similar start to look better and better to more and more people as we worry about how we may need to pay for covid testing and treatment? Discuss.
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Old 15th March 2020, 05:02 PM   #400
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
More important than whether it's more like Bernie's or someone else's, there's the fact that he doesn't mean it.
With things like that... it's not so much whether HE means it, honestly, so much as how much of a political push in and at Congress there is to actually make it happen. The President has a bully pulpit and some negotiating power, but it's the legislature that needs to be the ones who make it happen. That he's adopting it brings it more front and center, though, and means that he'll probably push it to some extent as part of a campaign promise, which is something of cynical value, but certainly not a guarantee.
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