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Tags 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 5th March 2020, 11:42 AM   #41
varwoche
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
No. At least not the way they'd probably do it. Which is to beat the dead horse that he is a bigoted scumbag.

In 2016 Trump literally said that wages were too high. That should have been played on a loop in every rust belt state around the clock. That is the subject matter that will move the needle at this point.
Indeed. The ad should include the clip of him bragging to the mar a lago crowd about how much richer he made them.
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Old 5th March 2020, 11:54 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Stipulated that Trump will viciously and relentlessly attack whoever the Democratic nominee is - it’s his MO and not even his lawyer and early and ardent supporters are immune - thinking Cohen and Sessions for two.

But I still think Sanders is especially vulnerable in this regard - as I said before, the attack ads on Bernie will write themselves.

Here’s one from my Facebook feed a few days ago:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...b16fb668_z.jpg

Now imagine the ads in S Florida painting Bernie as “praising” Castro.

I will support Sanders 100% if he’s the nominee. I support Medicare for All, so there’s that. But I’m not optimistic as to how he will fare in the general election once he’s the sole target of the Trump/Republican smear machine.


Regarding that meme you posted, honest question:

Are you the gullible one or are you simply concerned that others will be particularly gullible with respect to Sanders?


https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...ders-socialis/

These lies can be spread about anyone, you know.
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Old 5th March 2020, 11:56 AM   #43
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I am going to bell the cat here;

How many of the Bernie supporters here will vote for Biden in November is he gets the nomination?
If not, why?
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Old 5th March 2020, 11:58 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am going to bell the cat here;

How many of the Bernie supporters here will vote for Biden in November is he gets the nomination?
If not, why?

I'm still suspicious of the fact that you never answered my question a few weeks ago:

Would you vote for Bernie if he won the nomination?

Don't expect an answer from me if you've demonstrated you can't reciprocate. I have no faith that you engage in good faith because of this.
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Old 5th March 2020, 11:59 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think a lot of liberal types were in denial about the whole issue. They tried to hand-wave away the problem as the usual right-wing nonsense, but there was some actual meat to the controversy.

I like Warren as a Senator, but this whole claiming to be Native American in a professional context thing is a black mark on her record. It plays exactly into the worst tropes of affirmative action policies.

Curious to see who she endorses, or if she abstains from endorsing at all.
We agree on something, Warren's whole Native American routine was sheer pandering.
For the record I work with a number of Native American at the Federal Agecy I work for, and they laughed their heads off at Warren's claims.
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Old 5th March 2020, 12:00 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am going to bell the cat here;

How many of the Bernie supporters here will vote for Biden in November is he gets the nomination?
If not, why?
You won't get a straight answer.

Because if Biden gets the nomination, that's just gonna be proof that the evil establishment DNC cheated Sanders.

It's not that they won't vote for Biden if he becomes the... "rightful" (not the exact word I'm looking for but close) nominee, it's that they will never accept that he is the rightful nominee.

Again I'd love an answer on how many current Sanders supporters buy into the "Sanders was cheated out of the 2016 nomination" conspiracy theory.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 5th March 2020 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 5th March 2020, 12:01 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I'm still suspicious of the fact that you never answered my question a few weeks ago:

Would you vote for Bernie if he won the nomination?

Don't expect an answer from me if you've demonstrated you can't reciprocate. I have no faith that you engage in good faith because of this.
Yes, I woulod vote for Bernie. I would vote for Mickey Mouse as being a better then what we have now.
I am convinced he would lose, but I would still vote for him.
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Old 5th March 2020, 12:02 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You won't get a straight answer.

Because if Biden gets the nomination, that's just gonna be proof that they evil establishment DNC cheated Sanders.

It's not that they won't vote for Biden if he becomes the... "rightful" (not the exact word I'm looking for but close) nominee, it's that they will never accept that he is the rightful nominee.

Again I'd love an answer on how many current Sanders supporters buy into the "Sanders was cheated out of the 2016 nomination" conspiracy theory.

When you resort to Conspiracy theories, that's a pretty good sign you know you are losing.
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Old 5th March 2020, 12:06 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The people in the Rust Belt don't think the Rust Belt jobs are ever coming back. Nobody does.

Nobody believed Trump when he said he was going to save factory jobs. The Trumpers just heard it for the coded message that it was. "Yeah you and I know that factory ain't never gonna open up again, I'm just here to punish the people who did it, the people you think did it, the people you already hated and now are using this as an excuse to hate, everyone who's better off then you and you're jealous, and hell while we are at it just everyone you've ever wanted to punish for whatever reason."

This is why people are so confused when Trump outright says to his supporters "I'm going to do the thing" then doesn't do the thing and they still love him. Because they didn't hear "I'm gonna do the thing" they heard what he was actually saying "Listen we both know I can't do the thing, but me pretending I'm gonna do the thing is gonna troll the libs soooooo hard and isn't that just awesome?"

Trump didn't tap into some hidden well of hope in the rural areas and the heartland and the rustbelt that things were ever going to get better and he was going to lead them to it. This is spite and revenge and... just raw uncategorized, unorganized lashing out. It's not hope.

The rural areas of America haven't pinned any hope on Donald Trump, that's ludicrous.
I think there is some truth to this. That said, the Democrats didn't close those plants.
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Old 5th March 2020, 12:14 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think there is some truth to this. That said, the Democrats didn't close those plants.
Of course they didn't.

But sometimes you want revenge on the people who wronged you.

Sometime you want spite (whatever the proper noun form of spite would be in that sentence) on the people who still have it good after you've failed.

Sometimes you want to win.

Sometimes you want to make sure everyone loses.
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Old 5th March 2020, 12:14 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You won't get a straight answer.
Your bias is showing. I'll be happy to give a straight answer.......assuming I get a straight answer. I'm pretty sure I've posted my answer to this question in the past on this board, in fact.

Quote:
Because if Biden gets the nomination, that's just gonna be proof that the evil establishment DNC cheated Sanders.

It's not that they won't vote for Biden if he becomes the... "rightful" (not the exact word I'm looking for but close) nominee, it's that they will never accept that he is the rightful nominee.

Again I'd love an answer on how many current Sanders supporters buy into the "Sanders was cheated out of the 2016 nomination" conspiracy theory.

You like to paint with a very broad brush.......of ignorance.
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Old 5th March 2020, 12:14 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The people in the Rust Belt don't think the Rust Belt jobs are ever coming back. Nobody does.

Nobody believed Trump when he said he was going to save factory jobs. The Trumpers just heard it for the coded message that it was. "Yeah you and I know that factory ain't never gonna open up again, I'm just here to punish the people who did it, the people you think did it, the people you already hated and now are using this as an excuse to hate, everyone who's better off then you and you're jealous, and hell while we are at it just everyone you've ever wanted to punish for whatever reason."

This is why people are so confused when Trump outright says to his supporters "I'm going to do the thing" then doesn't do the thing and they still love him. Because they didn't hear "I'm gonna do the thing" they heard what he was actually saying "Listen we both know I can't do the thing, but me pretending I'm gonna do the thing is gonna troll the libs soooooo hard and isn't that just awesome?"

Trump didn't tap into some hidden well of hope in the rural areas and the heartland and the rustbelt that things were ever going to get better and he was going to lead them to it. This is spite and revenge and... just raw uncategorized, unorganized lashing out. It's not hope.

The rural areas of America haven't pinned any hope on Donald Trump, that's ludicrous.
I agree.
The path to defeating Trump is definitely not through outrage.
He must be portrayed as the small, thirsty, comical troll that he is.
Laughing at him is the best weapon against him.
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Old 5th March 2020, 12:15 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Yes, I woulod vote for Bernie. I would vote for Mickey Mouse as being a better then what we have now.
I am convinced he would lose, but I would still vote for him.


Thank you. Yes, I will vote for Biden, or whoever the Democratic nominee ends up being.
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Old 5th March 2020, 12:27 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Laughing at him is the best weapon against him.
I don't think that's true. SNL, the Daily Show, and John Oliver have been cracking on him nonstop for three years, and his approval ratings haven't moved at all.

Also, remember that Obama laughing at him is how we got here in the first place.

No, I think laughing at him is probably not the best weapon. Or, if your best weapon either does nothing or just makes him stronger, then you're pretty much screwed.

Last edited by theprestige; 5th March 2020 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 5th March 2020, 12:29 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Pocahontas has left the building
Dammit. Dammit.
The candidate that would make the best president won't be the president.
Dammity damn damn damn.
We will be stuck with one old guy or another whoever wins. The only remaining choice is between evil and stupid vs not evil and ineffective.

Dammit.
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Old 5th March 2020, 12:31 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
The one delegate Tulsi Gabbard won in American Samoa should have won her a ticket to the next "debates" - if rules meant rules for the DNC machine: DNC Scrambles To Change Debate Threshold After Gabbard Qualifies

And yes, the site is down at the moment, likely under attack by "Russian bots". I'm quoting from my RSS feed. Just try again later.
OK, I guess we theoretically have another choice - not old, not a guy, but still evil and not particularly competent.
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Old 5th March 2020, 12:31 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
The only remaining choice is between evil and stupid vs not evil and ineffective.
So which one is Biden and which one is Sanders?
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Old 5th March 2020, 12:36 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't think that's true. SNL, the Daily Show, and John Oliver have been cracking on him nonstop for three years, and his approval ratings haven't moved at all.

Also, remember that Obama laughing at him is how we got here in the first place.

No, I think laughing at him is probably not the best weapon. Or, if your best weapon either does nothing or just makes him stronger, then you're pretty much screwed.
Don't worry about it. I will keep laughing at him for you.
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Old 5th March 2020, 12:39 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't think that's true. SNL, the Daily Show, and John Oliver have been cracking on him nonstop for three years, and his approval ratings haven't moved at all.

Also, remember that Obama laughing at him is how we got here in the first place.

No, I think laughing at him is probably not the best weapon. Or, if your best weapon either does nothing or just makes him stronger, then you're pretty much screwed.
I've said it before: the best weapon against Trump is a wheelbarrow full of melted butter. Leave that around him and he'd accidentally drown himself in mere minutes.
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Old 5th March 2020, 12:39 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So which one is Biden and which one is Sanders?
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
Zinger-lite: 100% humor and gluten-free.
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Old 5th March 2020, 12:45 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The people in the Rust Belt don't think the Rust Belt jobs are ever coming back. Nobody does.

Nobody believed Trump when he said he was going to save factory jobs. The Trumpers just heard it for the coded message that it was. "Yeah you and I know that factory ain't never gonna open up again, I'm just here to punish the people who did it, the people you think did it, the people you already hated and now are using this as an excuse to hate, everyone who's better off then you and you're jealous, and hell while we are at it just everyone you've ever wanted to punish for whatever reason."

This is why people are so confused when Trump outright says to his supporters "I'm going to do the thing" then doesn't do the thing and they still love him. Because they didn't hear "I'm gonna do the thing" they heard what he was actually saying "Listen we both know I can't do the thing, but me pretending I'm gonna do the thing is gonna troll the libs soooooo hard and isn't that just awesome?"

Trump didn't tap into some hidden well of hope in the rural areas and the heartland and the rustbelt that things were ever going to get better and he was going to lead them to it. This is spite and revenge and... just raw uncategorized, unorganized lashing out. It's not hope.

The rural areas of America haven't pinned any hope on Donald Trump, that's ludicrous.

The idea that they have all just given up hoping and looking for a better life and are acting purely out of hate and spite is offensive dehumanization.

That and wrong unless 3/4 of the people I come across are lying to me and/or are a statistically implausible anomaly.
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Old 5th March 2020, 01:00 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The path to defeating Trump is definitely not through outrage.
He must be portrayed as the small, thirsty, comical troll that he is.
Laughing at him is the best weapon against him.
Maybe. But then, remember, one of the reasons why Clinton ended up losing to Trump is because many former Obama voters decided to stay home in the 2016 general election.

Now, this group of non-voters is not monolithic, and I'm sure there are multiple reasons why they sat out in 2016 (thought hillary was guaranteed to win, disliked both candidates, didn't recognize how bad Trump was). But for some of them, the question is will it motivate them to come out to vote in 2020 if you concentrate on "Trump the comic Troll" as opposed to "Trump the man who is risking your lives and jobs".
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Old 5th March 2020, 01:02 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think there is some truth to this. That said, the Democrats didn't close those plants.
Quibbling. There was a lack of response to the dumping of cheap foreign steel and that is what killed most of the domestic steel industry. Nothing was done about other plants moving overseas for cheap labor, etc.

This was the sort of thing that labor Democrats expected the party to do something about. They didn't, which is hard to not see as a betrayal, or at least failure.

Trump's promises to fix this by making the best deals was obviously stupid, but at least it was tangible.
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Old 5th March 2020, 01:07 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I've said it before: the best weapon against Trump is a wheelbarrow full of melted butter. Leave that around him and he'd accidentally drown himself in mere minutes.
If that wheelbarrow were to be painted a lovely Krylon™ Gold metallic with some Royal Blue accents I don't think he would be able to resist.
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Old 5th March 2020, 01:08 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am going to bell the cat here;

How many of the Bernie supporters here will vote for Biden in November is he gets the nomination?
If not, why?
In my opinion Biden is a terrible candidate but I would still vote for him.

However, after this election that will no longer be the case. I'm not going to keep supporting awful candidates in perpetuity because the other side is worse. I want good candidates with integrity that will move the country forward
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Old 5th March 2020, 01:10 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't think that's true. SNL, the Daily Show, and John Oliver have been cracking on him nonstop for three years, and his approval ratings haven't moved at all.

Also, remember that Obama laughing at him is how we got here in the first place.

No, I think laughing at him is probably not the best weapon. Or, if your best weapon either does nothing or just makes him stronger, then you're pretty much screwed.
Yeah.

The idea that some voter is sitting at home enjoying a grilled cheese watching some TV and an ad comes on about Trump saying some bigoted nonsense which causes that voter to go "Wow, Trump is an *******. Better not vote for him!!!" is SNL skit territory.

It isn't that Trump being a moron doesn't hurt him, it is that the return from that message diminished to zero a very long time ago. Sure, bring it up once in a while as a reminder, but if that is all they have, they are basically masturbating.
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Old 5th March 2020, 01:26 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Yeah.

The idea that some voter is sitting at home enjoying a grilled cheese watching some TV and an ad comes on about Trump saying some bigoted nonsense which causes that voter to go "Wow, Trump is an *******. Better not vote for him!!!" is SNL skit territory.

It isn't that Trump being a moron doesn't hurt him, it is that the return from that message diminished to zero a very long time ago. Sure, bring it up once in a while as a reminder, but if that is all they have, they are basically masturbating.

That might turn Trump "on".
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Old 5th March 2020, 01:31 PM   #68
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Old 5th March 2020, 01:31 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think there is some truth to this. That said, the Democrats didn't close those plants.

And they are never coming back. If every factory that moved overseas came back to the US, they would only employ a small number of the people they once employed because of Automation. The main job of a human on a assemblyline nowdays is just supervising the machines that are doing the actual manufacturing.
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Old 5th March 2020, 01:47 PM   #70
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A Republican woman on CNN just now who voted for Trump says she would vote for Biden if he gets the nomination this time. She's not comfortable with Sanders 'socialism'.

I think more Republicans and Independents who voted for Trump last time but are not happy with him now would vote for Biden but not Sanders.
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Old 5th March 2020, 01:51 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
OK, I guess we theoretically have another choice - not old, not a guy, but still evil and not particularly competent.

What a bizarre statement. There's the idea of a people getting the leaders they deserve, and in this line you certainly don't deserve Tulsi, who is the perfect candidate to beat Trump. Tough luck. Or "Karma bites"?
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Old 5th March 2020, 01:55 PM   #72
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Every election we do this.

"We'll envigorate a whole bunch of voters! No need to appeal to any fence sitters or moderates from the other side, in fact we'll actively push them away. Nope we're gonna have so many new people, especially those young folks voting, that we won't need any of their dirty, rotten votes."

Here's reality. Within a few piddling percent points one way or the other the people who voted in 2016 are gonna be the same people who voted in 2020. If the Democrats cannot drag at least some voters over from the Trump side they will lose because there is not some untapped ground swell of people who the idea of voting just haven't occurred to them.

There's exceptions in the margins to be sure; felons are a prime case and all or any of them might happen (to cut off the "bUt U kAnt nO thAt 4 suRE!") but it's insane to count on them as your primary strategy.

Prove you're voting block, then you get catered to. It can't happen in reverse.
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Old 5th March 2020, 01:56 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And they are never coming back. If every factory that moved overseas came back to the US, they would only employ a small number of the people they once employed because of Automation. The main job of a human on a assemblyline nowdays is just supervising the machines that are doing the actual manufacturing.
Sure. The problem is...

Trump: Those jobs can come back. I make the best deals. Look at this mostly deceiving example that you don't have the time or inclination to fact check. Winning!!

Biden: Trump is lying. I have some ideas about targeted tax credits that I can't explain very clearly.

Sanders: We need to put better labor protection in place. There is no reason the jobs that are out there now shouldn't be as stable and rewarding as those manufacturing jobs, and with universal heath care you will be better able to change jobs and maybe work for yourself without the uncertainty and burden of worrying about medical insurance.

I don't know which is the easiest to sell. Sadly, probably Trump's view. I do know which is the worst.

Nobody really liked working in the mill. All I heard growing up was to do well in school so I didn't have to dress up like a baked potato and run around the BOP. It was the money and dignity that went with it that is missed, and that is more about organized labor than the nature of the work.
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Old 5th March 2020, 01:58 PM   #74
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I just knew it would be a good time to check out what Ben Garrison is up to...

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Old 5th March 2020, 02:18 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Regarding that meme you posted, honest question:

Are you the gullible one or are you simply concerned that others will be particularly gullible with respect to Sanders?


https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...ders-socialis/

These lies can be spread about anyone, you know.
The problem is, few are going to research the "facts" as put forth in the meme. And we know from human psychology that even pointing out the falsehoods in the meme can cement the allegations in certain minds.

Another problem is there is just a tiny kernel of truth in the assertions, although they're exaggerated. As oppo research on Bernie gears up, prepare for an onslaught of such memes. It's going to be a giant game of "Whack-a-Mole".
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Old 5th March 2020, 02:19 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I just knew it would be a good time to check out what Ben Garrison is up to...

https://i.imgur.com/TMZ2U8T.jpg
Surprisingly tasteful.
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Old 5th March 2020, 02:22 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Sure. The problem is...

Trump: Those jobs can come back. I make the best deals. Look at this mostly deceiving example that you don't have the time or inclination to fact check. Winning!!

Biden: Trump is lying. I have some ideas about targeted tax credits that I can't explain very clearly.

Sanders: We need to put better labor protection in place. There is no reason the jobs that are out there now shouldn't be as stable and rewarding as those manufacturing jobs, and with universal heath care you will be better able to change jobs and maybe work for yourself without the uncertainty and burden of worrying about medical insurance.

I don't know which is the easiest to sell. Sadly, probably Trump's view. I do know which is the worst.

Nobody really liked working in the mill. All I heard growing up was to do well in school so I didn't have to dress up like a baked potato and run around the BOP. It was the money and dignity that went with it that is missed, and that is more about organized labor than the nature of the work.
Let's face it, politicians don't like to tell unpalatable truths to people.
The trick is to make it look like you are doing it, why you really are not, so you can get credit for being "Straithforward".

I love that all three are so vague in details.
And Bernie does seem to think that UHC is a pancea for all our economic ills.
I support UHC, but am not under the illusion it is going to fix every problem with our economy like some of it's proponents seem to suggest.
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Old 5th March 2020, 02:34 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post

Here's reality. Within a few piddling percent points one way or the other the people who voted in 2016 are gonna be the same people who voted in 2020. If the Democrats cannot drag at least some voters over from the Trump side they will lose because there is not some untapped ground swell of people who the idea of voting just haven't occurred to them.

You got some facts right but somehow managed to arrive at the wrong conclusion. I'd like to point out that 2016 was decided by less than those "few piddling percent points" in WI, MI, and PA. It's my understanding that some sat out (or voted third party) because they refused to vote for Hillary (hell, I know quite a few of them). Bringing those people back around (now that Hillary is gone) is enough to swing the election away from Trump...without converting a single Trump voter.
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Old 5th March 2020, 02:57 PM   #79
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Biden is a complete disaster candidate, Sanders won't be allowed to run - I wouldn't be so certain that Killary is "gone" in the sense of not "running" again in an "emergency Uncle situation".
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Old 5th March 2020, 03:06 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
The problem is, few are going to research the "facts" as put forth in the meme. And we know from human psychology that even pointing out the falsehoods in the meme can cement the allegations in certain minds.

Another problem is there is just a tiny kernel of truth in the assertions, although they're exaggerated. As oppo research on Bernie gears up, prepare for an onslaught of such memes. It's going to be a giant game of "Whack-a-Mole".

I understand. I do think it's important to point out this will be an issue with anyone. Yes, I'm sure you claim Bernie is particularly susceptible, and I'm not arguing you are wrong on that; I just want to stress how very important it is to be aware that this will be an issue with anyone. We've already seen attempts to attach Biden to corruption in Ukraine, and I see no evidence of that story dying.

I trust you remember what a giant game of Whack-a-Mole it was with Hillary Clinton. For literally decades. Still going on, as far as I can tell.
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