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Tags 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 11th March 2020, 12:31 PM   #241
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Quote:
In my opinion that would be a mistake.

Even if Sanders wins the debate easily, its doubtful he would win the nomination. (Biden's lead is too great.) The only think Sander's continued participation would do is to increase the divisions within the Democratic party, and give yet more ammunition to the Republicans
Is it?

Biden needs 50.5% of remaining delegates for an outright majority.

Bernie needs 57.1% for the same.

Biden has opened up his lead,
Lets see, of the remaining primaries, you have:
- Florida (where Sanders trails Biden by double digits)
- Illinois (where Sanders again trails Biden by double digits)
- New York (where Sanders again trails Biden by double digits)
- Pennsylvania (where Sanders again trails Biden by double digits)
And those are just 4 of the states with bigger delegate counts. That is a huge amount of ground to cover.

So not only is Biden in the lead in current delegates, he is clearly in the lead in the polls for all remaining delegates.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ary-d/florida/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ry-d/illinois/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ry-d/new-york/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com.../pennsylvania/

Quote:
but there's still room for a turnaround, especially if he suddenly becomes perceived of being unfit for office.
And there is also a chance that Sander's support could drop further, if he has any more episodes where he expresses his undying love for Castro, or starts attacking the same delegates he needs support from.

The assumption that only Biden may falter is a foolish notion.
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Old 11th March 2020, 01:58 PM   #242
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Looks like Sanders is sticking in the race.

From: https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/11/polit...ign/index.html
Bernie Sanders vowed to stay in the presidential race on Wednesday after a series of defeats that have left him trailing rival Joe Biden...

BernieBros like to criticize Biden for his supposedly failing mental health.... yet here is Sanders, clinging to false hope, driving a wedge in the Democratic party, and possibly helping the Republicans. (Not to mention draining Democratic resources to continue a race when instead they could be focused against Trump.)

The only way this works out well is if its somehow a way to give Biden tacit support by tossing him a bunch of soft-balls at the next debate, but I somehow doubt that will be the case.
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Old 11th March 2020, 02:46 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Looks like Sanders is sticking in the race.

From: https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/11/polit...ign/index.html
Bernie Sanders vowed to stay in the presidential race on Wednesday after a series of defeats that have left him trailing rival Joe Biden...

BernieBros like to criticize Biden for his supposedly failing mental health.... yet here is Sanders, clinging to false hope, driving a wedge in the Democratic party, and possibly helping the Republicans. (Not to mention draining Democratic resources to continue a race when instead they could be focused against Trump.)

The only way this works out well is if its somehow a way to give Biden tacit support by tossing him a bunch of soft-balls at the next debate, but I somehow doubt that will be the case.
I'd be shocked if Bernie takes that tack. He sees Biden as the establishment and has never been a team player.
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Old 11th March 2020, 02:48 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I agree. She would, IMO, be a greater asset to Biden than to Sanders, but she would help either Candidate.
She'd also be a great asset to either as president. I can't think of anyone who would do more with the office of VP than Warren other than Dick Cheney.

Not that I think it's likely. One, either Sanders or Biden would likely chose a younger running mate from the south or midwest. Two, it would make me too happy, and the universe doesn't operate like that.
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Old 11th March 2020, 04:06 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Looks like Sanders is sticking in the race.

From: https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/11/polit...ign/index.html
Bernie Sanders vowed to stay in the presidential race on Wednesday after a series of defeats that have left him trailing rival Joe Biden...

BernieBros like to criticize Biden for his supposedly failing mental health.... yet here is Sanders, clinging to false hope, driving a wedge in the Democratic party, and possibly helping the Republicans. (Not to mention draining Democratic resources to continue a race when instead they could be focused against Trump.)

The only way this works out well is if its somehow a way to give Biden tacit support by tossing him a bunch of soft-balls at the next debate, but I somehow doubt that will be the case.
Hopefully Biden does not take such a combative tone. Even if Bernie loses, he represents a large portion of the party. Concessions should be made to appeal to the progressive wing of the party.

This tactic of comparing legitimate concerns of the progressive wing of the party to Trump enabling seems very misguided. These people who spent years crying about Bernie bros not turning out to vote seem determined to alienate every last one of them.
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Old 11th March 2020, 04:07 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Hopefully Biden does not take such a combative tone. Even if Bernie loses, he represents a large portion of the party. Concessions should be made to appeal to the progressive wing of the party.
"Give us cake or we'll give you four more years of President Trump!"
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Old 11th March 2020, 04:08 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Give us cake or we'll give you four more years of President Trump!"
Stop calling us Russian bots and Trump toadies and we probably won't vote Green.

Why wouldn't Bernie get something? Plenty of lesser candidates seem to be getting something for toeing the party line. Are we one party or a vanquished foe? Obama made Hillary secretary of state, and she ran a way nastier primary than anything we've seen so far.
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Old 11th March 2020, 04:39 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Stop calling us Russian bots and Trump toadies and we probably won't vote Green.

Why wouldn't Bernie get something? Plenty of lesser candidates seem to be getting something for toeing the party line. Are we one party or a vanquished foe? Obama made Hillary secretary of state, and she ran a way nastier primary than anything we've seen so far.
This is Prestige you're talking to. I'm sure he would prefer you to vote green party.
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Old 11th March 2020, 05:21 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
And that's one of his more problematic points, honestly. A problem that's compounded by the need to do a heck of a lot of working together to fix the mess that Trump's made. To poke at his comments about Clyburn, for example, him just... refusing to even reach out to those who don't actually share his politics is rather self defeating.
More importantly, it's not good for the USA either. Ideologically rigid politicians are lousy politicians, period. Interestingly, ideologically ungrounded politicians (like Trump) are kinda worthless too.



Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Honestly, not having a brokered convention is a good thing. I much prefer it that way. It would, admittedly, be nice if Warren had came out of a brokered convention as the nominee, but that victory would be a... tainted one.
It would also be very hard to overcome the resultant damaged egos and defeat Trump in November.

Although I'm disappointed that it's Biden, there's no question who I'm pulling the lever for in November. I hope others act likewise.
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Old 11th March 2020, 05:24 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Bernie had a reasonable chance against the field, but his chance against the field united is slim to none.
And Slim has left the building.
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Old 11th March 2020, 05:28 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
And Slim has left the building.
I thought he please stood up.
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Old 11th March 2020, 05:30 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Why wouldn't Bernie get something? Plenty of lesser candidates seem to be getting something for toeing the party line. Are we one party or a vanquished foe? Obama made Hillary secretary of state, and she ran a way nastier primary than anything we've seen so far.
The (very big) difference is that HRC had been a prominent, loyal and leading Democrat since Jesus was in swaddling clothes while Bernie ... well, not at all. It's the chickens coming home to roost.
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Old 11th March 2020, 05:34 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This is Prestige you're talking to. I'm sure he would prefer you to vote green party.
I'm not the one calling Sanders supporters Russian bots. I figured it wasn't directed at me.

And no, while I would appreciate it if all the Dems stayed home this time, I don't think any of them should betray their conscience to do so. If Sanders supporters all end up holding their nose and voting for Biden, and as a result he wins the election, that's an acceptable outcome to me.

Sanders supporters spoiling Biden's chances seems like a silly idea to me. I wouldn't mind the result, but I don't want them to do it, if that makes sense.
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Old 11th March 2020, 05:35 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Looks like Sanders is sticking in the race.

From: https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/11/polit...ign/index.html
Bernie Sanders vowed to stay in the presidential race on Wednesday after a series of defeats that have left him trailing rival Joe Biden...

BernieBros like to criticize Biden for his supposedly failing mental health.... yet here is Sanders, clinging to false hope, driving a wedge in the Democratic party, and possibly helping the Republicans. (Not to mention draining Democratic resources to continue a race when instead they could be focused against Trump.)

The only way this works out well is if its somehow a way to give Biden tacit support by tossing him a bunch of soft-balls at the next debate, but I somehow doubt that will be the case.
The tone of his speech and the bulk of the article are rather different than your interpretation.

Quote:
Standing in front of a line of American flags and a deep blue curtain, Sanders acknowledged his delegate math crunch before he dug deeper into the numbers and warned that Biden's failure so far to win over young voters could be damaging in November and beyond. He did not, however, criticize Biden over his Iraq War vote or record on Social Security. In dropping those lines of attack, Sanders offered some insight into his goals going forward: to push his own agenda and perhaps secure some commitments from Biden, not tear him down.

"Today I say to the Democratic establishment, in order to win in the future, you need to win the voters who represent the future of our country and you must speak to the issues of concern to them," Sanders said, before conceding that he was doing just as poorly with older voters.

Sanders, in unusually frank and analytical terms, also discussed his failure so far to convince Democrats he would stand the best chance of defeating President Donald Trump in November.

"While our campaign has won the ideological debate, we are losing the debate over electability. I cannot tell you how many people our campaign has spoke to and said, and I quote, 'I like what your campaign stands for, I agree with what your campaign stands for, but I'm going to vote for Joe Biden because I think Joe is the best candidate to defeat Donald Trump,'" Sanders said. "We have heard that statement all over this country. Needless to say, I strongly disagree with that assertion, but that is what millions of Democrats and independents today believe."
Emphasis mine.
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Old 11th March 2020, 05:37 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Stop calling us Russian bots and Trump toadies and we probably won't vote Green.

Why wouldn't Bernie get something? Plenty of lesser candidates seem to be getting something for toeing the party line. Are we one party or a vanquished foe? Obama made Hillary secretary of state, and she ran a way nastier primary than anything we've seen so far.
OK, just tell Bernie to call off the dogs. Uncle already.

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Old 11th March 2020, 06:04 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not the one calling Sanders supporters Russian bots. I figured it wasn't directed at me.

And no, while I would appreciate it if all the Dems stayed home this time, I don't think any of them should betray their conscience to do so. If Sanders supporters all end up holding their nose and voting for Biden, and as a result he wins the election, that's an acceptable outcome to me.

Sanders supporters spoiling Biden's chances seems like a silly idea to me. I wouldn't mind the result, but I don't want them to do it, if that makes sense.
Yeah, but he was replying to your post. And I'm sorry if you find this offensive. But I don't believe you.

All I have seen the last few years is Republicans tossing away any and all principles in exchange for power. And I have seen little evidence that shows you are the exception.

But maybe, I'm wrong. I doubt it though.
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Old 11th March 2020, 06:45 PM   #257
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"Vote Blue no matter who"

Well, Horton, here's our who.
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Old 11th March 2020, 06:51 PM   #258
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The news this evening has me lamenting that we did not recognize the value of a candidate who "has a plan for that"
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Old 11th March 2020, 06:58 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The news this evening has me lamenting that we did not recognize the value of a candidate who "has a plan for that"
Yeah, just after Trump's speech, the NBA announced it was suspending it's season because of the virus. Not good timing, Donnie, not good timing.
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Old 11th March 2020, 06:59 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Yeah, just after Trump's speech, the NBA announced it was suspending it's season because of the virus. Not good timing, Donnie, not good timing.
At least two NHL teams are playing to empty stadiums as well.
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Old 11th March 2020, 07:03 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
"Vote Blue no matter who"

Well, Horton, here's our who.
Well, when the other side offers a candidate who is immoral, corrupt, incompetent as well as a despicable bully, pretty much any "who" is preferable.

But Biden is a good man and highly experienced. So we're good.
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Old 11th March 2020, 07:06 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Why wouldn't Bernie get something? Plenty of lesser candidates seem to be getting something for toeing the party line. Are we one party or a vanquished foe?
Why are you comparing candidates who got out of the way in a timely fashion with one that refuses to do the same?

If Bernie were to have quit today I suspect he would have gotten significant currency with a Biden administration. If he gets nothing because he drags this into may, he'll have himself to blame.

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Old 11th March 2020, 07:10 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Beeyon View Post
If he gets nothing because he drags this into may, he'll have himself to blame.
No doubt he'll lament his actions over the years and years remaining to him. He's 109 years old, and has been wildly controversial for decades, with millions of people hating his guts. Sanders has no reason to give a crap about consequences. From his perspective he may as well keep on being Sandersy up to the last minute, which isn't too far off no matter what happens.
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Old 11th March 2020, 07:47 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
But Biden is a good man and highly experienced. So we're good.
Experienced in a political environment already rendered obsolete by obstructionism. I've yet to hear him give an actual answer to being asked how he'd deal with a GOP-majority Senate. Whenever it comes up he name drops Obama and moves on.

Let's be clear: I do not like him, and I do not think he will make an effective President. But he's honest and his intentions are good, which are two things that no one can say about Trump with a straight face. If you'd like a more full-throated support, let's see him pick a young progressive as veep and move to unite the party instead of doubling down on feckless centrism. Warren would be okay too.
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Old 11th March 2020, 08:32 PM   #265
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Recent Trump tweet I saw:
Quote:
Pocahontas, working in conjunction with the Democrat Party, totally destroyed the campaign of Bernie Sanders. If she would have quit 3 days earlier, Sanders would have beaten Biden in a route, it wouldn’t even have been close. They also got two other losers to support Sleepy Joe!
Trump is full of it (and you know what 'it' is). Quitting 3 days earlier wouldn't have made a big difference. He just wants Bernie Bros to be so mad they won't vote. Sanders was only winning in states like Iowa, New Hampshire and Nevada because there were still so many people in the race and the moderate votes were divided. Once there was only moderate candidate left in the race, that candidate started beating Sanders head to head. It's pretty simple. Sanders couldn't win Michigan even with Warren out of the race. He has double digit leads in the national polls, and in big states like Florida, New York, Pennsylvania and Illinois. There was nothing Warren could have done to save Sanders even if she wanted to.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...tion-6730.html
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Old 11th March 2020, 08:36 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Quote:
BernieBros like to criticize Biden for his supposedly failing mental health.... yet here is Sanders, clinging to false hope, driving a wedge in the Democratic party, and possibly helping the Republicans. (Not to mention draining Democratic resources to continue a race when instead they could be focused against Trump.)
Hopefully Biden does not take such a combative tone.
I doubt he will.

My comments are basically my own opinions, and I doubt anyone is going to change their opinions based on anything I say.

Quote:
Even if Bernie loses, he represents a large portion of the party. Concessions should be made to appeal to the progressive wing of the party.
And yet Moderates also made up a large portion of the Democratic party, and it wasn't just BernieBros here complaining about them, it was Sanders himself.

Seems to me like a double standard.

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Old 11th March 2020, 08:43 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Experienced in a political environment already rendered obsolete by obstructionism.
Yup, if the GOP hold the senate it will be difficult for President Biden to get legislation passed.

But then, given the fact that Trump has been running things by executive order, Biden is probably smart enough to know he could do the same.
Quote:
I've yet to hear him give an actual answer to being asked how he'd deal with a GOP-majority Senate. Whenever it comes up he name drops Obama and moves on.
Its a problem without a clear solution. Its something that NONE of the candidates would be able to solve. So blaming Biden for not being able to come up with an answer seems unfair.
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Old 11th March 2020, 08:52 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Quote:
Looks like Sanders is sticking in the race.

From: https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/11/polit...ign/index.html
Bernie Sanders vowed to stay in the presidential race on Wednesday after a series of defeats that have left him trailing rival Joe Biden...

BernieBros like to criticize Biden for his supposedly failing mental health.... yet here is Sanders, clinging to false hope, driving a wedge in the Democratic party, and possibly helping the Republicans. (Not to mention draining Democratic resources to continue a race when instead they could be focused against Trump.)
The tone of his speech and the bulk of the article are rather different than your interpretation.
Standing in front of a line of American flags and a deep blue curtain, Sanders acknowledged his delegate math crunch before he dug deeper into the numbers and warned that Biden's failure so far to win over young voters could be damaging in November and beyond. He did not, however, criticize Biden over his Iraq War vote or record on Social Security. In dropping those lines of attack, Sanders offered some insight into his goals going forward: to push his own agenda and perhaps secure some commitments from Biden, not tear him down.
Even if Sanders is sincere about his stated intentions, the problem is the large number of BernieBros that might not listen.

Sanders supporters here like to point out that Sanders ended up campaigning for Clinton in the end, but approximately 1 in 10 of his supporters ended up voting for Trump. Even if, in the very end, he does is best to campaign for Biden in the end, staying in the race still divides the Democrats, and still diverts resources that could be used to fight the republicans. And all for what, to get some vague promises that Biden might not be able to get passed because of Republican obstructionism?
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Old 11th March 2020, 08:57 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
The tone of his speech and the bulk of the article are rather different than your interpretation.

Emphasis mine.
I only heard the last line and I thought he said he still believes he is the best candidate ...
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Old 11th March 2020, 09:16 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
There is a path until the debate, but at this point Biden has to be just boggle the mind bad in that debate for it to really matter. Like to the point where nobody can say with a straight face that he's capable of holding office.

Unlikely, but he hasn't had to be under the bright lights as the frontrunner yet, so better to find out if he can perform adequately now than in the general.
Plus there's nowhere to hide when there's just two candidates. That's a whole lot of talking time.
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Old 11th March 2020, 11:56 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I thought he please stood up.
That sounds shady to me.

In Biden news...

Joe Biden Announces Formation Of Public Health Advisory Committee To Address COVID-19

Quote:
Joe Biden is forming a “Public Health Advisory Committee” tasked with addressing the COVID-19. Members of Committee will advise Biden’s campaign and the public. Biden will make a statement about the epidemic on Thursday (tomorrow).
Well... working to spread correct information and doing it in a much more Presidential manner than the current resident in the White House is, frankly, a good move, I think.
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Old 12th March 2020, 01:45 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Yup, if the GOP hold the senate it will be difficult for President Biden to get legislation passed.

But then, given the fact that Trump has been running things by executive order, Biden is probably smart enough to know he could do the same.
Smart enough to do the president's actual job, you mean?

It's not actually the president's job to get legislation passed. There's a whole branch of government for that, and it's not called the Executive.
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Old 12th March 2020, 04:12 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
BernieBros like to criticize Biden for his supposedly failing mental health.... yet here is Sanders, clinging to false hope, driving a wedge in the Democratic party, and possibly helping the Republicans.
...again.
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Old 12th March 2020, 04:15 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Even if Sanders is sincere about his stated intentions, the problem is the large number of BernieBros that might not listen.

Sanders supporters here like to point out that Sanders ended up campaigning for Clinton in the end, but approximately 1 in 10 of his supporters ended up voting for Trump. Even if, in the very end, he does is best to campaign for Biden in the end, staying in the race still divides the Democrats, and still diverts resources that could be used to fight the republicans. And all for what, to get some vague promises that Biden might not be able to get passed because of Republican obstructionism?
Can we put this ridiculous smear to rest? What's the normal rate for party defectors in a primary? Was Bernie's 1 in 10 better or worse than normal?

What's the standard you are using to assess the toxicity of Bernie Bros who crossed party lines?

Hillary supporters voted for McCain at 25% in 2008. 9% of Obama primary voters voted for McCain in the general, riddle me that. Sanders supporters were 1% worse than people who didn't vote for Obama even though he won the primary.

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/54581...p-survey-finds

This whole thing smacks of desperation to avoid the truth that Hillary lost on her own merits. Toxic Bernie bros didn't cost Hillary the election. She was a bad candidate and ran a poor campaign.
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Old 12th March 2020, 04:16 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
At least two NHL teams are playing to empty stadiums as well.
That's going to take a lot of the fun out of watching these games.
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Old 12th March 2020, 04:22 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Experienced in a political environment already rendered obsolete by obstructionism.
You're not wrong, but short of a violent revolution I don't see many options to get out of this sticky situation.
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Old 12th March 2020, 04:41 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
But then, given the fact that Trump has been running things by executive order, Biden is probably smart enough to know he could do the same.
That's Sander's solution.

As soon as Biden wins the election the GOP are going to start moping and whining about bipartisanship, crying big crocodile tears at the mean ol' Democrats trying to get stuff done without them. And Biden, drawing on his decades of experience working across the aisle, will water down his own proposals to nothing if it means getting them on board, and there will be months of debates and delays right up until the last moment when they will tell him to go **** himself. Just like they did with Obama. That is literally what people are nominating him to do.

A Biden presidency represents homeopathic levels of progress. But it wouldn't be further backsliding into a fascist dystopia, so at least there's that.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You're not wrong, but short of a violent revolution I don't see many options to get out of this sticky situation.
It's just game theory. You play tit for tat. The Trumpers who screwed Democrats get screwed, but the new ones and the honest ones you go out of your way to include and be nice to.

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Old 12th March 2020, 04:44 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post

A Biden presidency represents homeopathic levels of progress. But it wouldn't be further backsliding into a fascist dystopia, so at least there's that.
This really is the path to victory for Biden. Trump is so terrible that people aren't going to care that Biden is an extremely unappealing candidate.

I mean, this works on me, and I probably hate Biden as much as anyone that isn't a MAGA CHUD.

But yeah, not expecting anything out of Biden's presidency other than reversing some of Trump's worse executive actions and appointing a few judges. It's going to be like Obama's gridlocked years, but worse because Biden isn't nearly as effective as Obama was.
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Old 12th March 2020, 05:11 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
It's just game theory. You play tit for tat. The Trumpers who screwed Democrats get screwed, but the new ones and the honest ones you go out of your way to include and be nice to.
What does that mean? They have the Senate.
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Old 12th March 2020, 05:41 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You're not wrong, but short of a violent revolution I don't see many options to get out of this sticky situation.
I don’t think that’s on the horizon, but I’m beginning to sense the stage is being set for a worldwide conflagration of some sort. Possibly starting in the Middle East over oil. There’s already economic “warfare” initiated by Saudi Arabia causing a collapse in oil prices and exacerbating the stock market rout already in progress.

Maybe I’m just being paranoid, but it’s a sick feeling that’s starting to creep into my otherwise optimistic world view.
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