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Old 24th April 2020, 01:18 PM   #361
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Esper has not accepted or rejected the recommendation to reinstate yet. It will be very interesting to see if he does reinstate Crozier.

ETA: From the NYT article:

Quote:
Admiral Gilday and Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, had both advised Mr. Modly not to remove Captain Crozier before an investigation into events aboard the Roosevelt was complete. But Mr. Modly feared that Mr. Trump wanted Captain Crozier fired, according to his acquaintances, and dismissed the captain.

But the president’s position softened as videos of crew members extolling their captain made their way around social media. Still, it was unclear exactly where the president now stands on the reinstatement of Captain Crozier, and Mr. Esper’s decision not to immediately accept the recommendation that the captain be reinstated could reflect a fear of getting on the wrong side of his boss, officials said.
That Esper may not reinstate Crozier due to fear of Trump is the first thing that entered my mind when I heard that Esper had yet to make a decision. Will Trump succumb to his narcissism that makes him so incapable of admitting he was wrong when he said he agreed with Crozier's firing? Or will he decide it will make him look better to reinstate the Captain who has popular support?

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Old 24th April 2020, 03:33 PM   #362
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It could go either way, honestly. Having initially stated his agreement isn't necessarily problematic for Trump because he can easily just assert that he never made such a statement, and that documentary video evidence is "fake news". He has taken exactly this course of action many times already.
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Old 24th April 2020, 03:38 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It could go either way, honestly. Having initially stated his agreement isn't necessarily problematic for Trump because he can easily just assert that he never made such a statement, and that documentary video evidence is "fake news". He has taken exactly this course of action many times already.
When he said he was "100% in agreement with the firing", he was just being sarcastic.
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Old 24th April 2020, 09:09 PM   #364
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The sad thing is that even if he is reinstated his career is still gonna be in the toilet. He may get the TR back, for a while, but he isn't going anywhere up after that.

His next, best chance at promotion would be if he gets promoted to Rear Admiral as part of his retirement package.
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Old 26th April 2020, 04:40 PM   #365
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If they give him his job back, it might keep him out of a House or Senate run in 2020.
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Old 26th April 2020, 04:41 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The sad thing is that even if he is reinstated his career is still gonna be in the toilet. He may get the TR back, for a while, but he isn't going anywhere up after that.

His next, best chance at promotion would be if he gets promoted to Rear Admiral as part of his retirement package.
To retire at that grade, he'd need to serve for a period in the new grade.
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Old 26th April 2020, 07:23 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
To retire at that grade, he'd need to serve for a period in the new grade.

Then I guess he'll be going out as a Captain.

Actually there are some work-arounds, exceptions, etc. for the three year Time In Grade requirement. (A waiver from SecNav can shave that down to two years.) Not least of which would be parking him in the reserves, or in some backwater assignment. In which case he could request full retirement, but only as a Captain until he got the his TIG as RAdm. He's only a couple of years from having his thirty in, so he might be inclined to hang on anyway, to get his full pension.

There's a lot of variations on that theme, but the one thing that is certain is that he's not going much farther in the USN. Whether or not he gets reinstated and gets his ship back. That's my only point.

After Captain it all changes. The flag ranks are all about politics. Serious, make the SecNav, SecDef, and Senate, plus lots of other people happy type politics.

That bridge has been burnt in front of him. It isn't like there's a shortage of other Captains to fill slots.
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Old 26th April 2020, 07:56 PM   #368
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When I was in the military, admittedly almost 50 years ago, promoting senior officers a grade one day before retirement was pretty standard practice.
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Old 26th April 2020, 08:32 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
When I was in the military, admittedly almost 50 years ago, promoting senior officers a grade one day before retirement was pretty standard practice.

I suspect things have changed more than a little bit, but that is sort of what happened with my grandfather back in 1947. Not sure if it was 'one day', but he hadn't had his star for very long before he retired. Certainly not three years.

He'd graduated from the Naval Academy in 1916. Served on a destroyer through WWI. Sundry assignments up to WWII. Skippered a light cruiser as full Captain in the SouthPac for most of the war, and he retired in 1947 as a Rear Admiral (lower half).

He had his thirty in, but not all that much (I don't know how much) TIG as a RAdm.
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Old 27th April 2020, 05:56 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
To retire at that grade, he'd need to serve for a period in the new grade.
Nope.

It is as common as hell for officers in the US Armed forces (and the USCG for that matter) especially those higher in the command chain, to be promoted just prior to retirement.

Happens on our mob too. At my last station before I retired, the Base Commander (a Group Captain) was promoted to Air Commodore on retirement, and even wore his new lapel stripes at the change of command ceremony and parade.
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Old 27th April 2020, 08:00 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
After Captain it all changes. The flag ranks are all about politics. Serious, make the SecNav, SecDef, and Senate, plus lots of other people happy type politics.

That bridge has been burnt in front of him. It isn't like there's a shortage of other Captains to fill slots.
If the administration changes from R to D, that bridge might not be burned after all. It's all about politics, but one political party lauds him as a hero.

If he can hold out for a year or so, his prospects might change significantly.
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Old 27th April 2020, 10:29 AM   #372
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Same in British forces, you retire one rank up.
That's why anyone ex army insisting on being called 'Captain' never actually got above Lieutenant.
Hence in the sitcom Are you being served the pompous manager insisted on being called 'Captain' Peacock to add to his feeling of superiority.
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Old 27th April 2020, 02:48 PM   #373
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Report is the Navy Has Decided To Restore Capt. Brett Crozier
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Old 27th April 2020, 02:59 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Report is the Navy Has Decided To Restore Capt. Brett Crozier
It recommended last week that he be restored to his command but there is nothing so far that it has been accepted. What I've read is that it will be likely be decided sometime this week.

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Old 27th April 2020, 03:22 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Same in British forces, you retire one rank up.
That's why anyone ex army insisting on being called 'Captain' never actually got above Lieutenant.
Hence in the sitcom Are you being served the pompous manager insisted on being called 'Captain' Peacock to add to his feeling of superiority.
Years ago, my parents had a friend who was always called "Colonel". Having just gotten out of the Army, I figured his highest rank before retirement was actually Major.
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Old 27th April 2020, 03:30 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Years ago, my parents had a friend who was always called "Colonel". Having just gotten out of the Army, I figured his highest rank before retirement was actually Major.
I worked with a bloke that went by 'Major' he was a Captain in the Royal Engineers.

As I was a P.O when I left the RN maybe I should go as 'Chief Petty Officer' but for some reason it only applies to commissioned officers.

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Old 27th April 2020, 03:59 PM   #377
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Is this a British thing? When my dad retired after 20 yrs. in the USAF, he was not promoted to a higher rank. He retired at the rank he was promoted to 4-5 years earlier (Major). He went in as a buck private when he was 17.
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Old 27th April 2020, 05:19 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Is this a British thing? When my dad retired after 20 yrs. in the USAF, he was not promoted to a higher rank. He retired at the rank he was promoted to 4-5 years earlier (Major). He went in as a buck private when he was 17.
Not high enough rank Stacy. Major is the lowest Field Officer Rank

This really only happens near the "flag" or "general" ranks, so Captains in the Navy and USCG, Colonels in the Army, USAF and USMC, which are the highest Field Officer ranks
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Old 27th April 2020, 05:22 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Not high enough rank Stacy.

This really only happens near "flag" ranks, so Captains and above in the Navy adn USCG, Colonels and above in the Army, USAF and USMC.
I see. Thanks.

Dad wanted to retire at 37 and go fly for an airline. The USAF wanted him to stay with a promotion but this was when Vietnam was starting to escalate and he decided no. He'd already been in one war.
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Old 27th April 2020, 05:45 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Not high enough rank Stacy. Major is the lowest Field Officer Rank

This really only happens near the "flag" or "general" ranks, so Captains in the Navy and USCG, Colonels in the Army, USAF and USMC, which are the highest Field Officer ranks
I was a kid at the time, but I very distinctly recall that my father retired from the USAF as a SSGT and after certain amount of time was promoted to TSGT, with a commensurate change in his pension. Bear in mind this was a couple of decades ago though so I couldn't tell you the circumstances or whether that kind of thing can still happen.
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Old 27th April 2020, 05:48 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Is this a British thing? When my dad retired after 20 yrs. in the USAF, he was not promoted to a higher rank. He retired at the rank he was promoted to 4-5 years earlier (Major). He went in as a buck private when he was 17.
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Not high enough rank Stacy. Major is the lowest Field Officer Rank

This really only happens near the "flag" or "general" ranks, so Captains in the Navy and USCG, Colonels in the Army, USAF and USMC, which are the highest Field Officer ranks
And going in as an enlisted man is a black mark as far as the ring-knockers* are concerned.
The best officer I ever met in my brief Army "career" was a Captain who was being "RIF'd", i.e. kicked out, because he had been in 19 years and was only a Captain. The fact that he'd been an enlisted man for the first 15 not only didn't help, but actively counted against him. They generously allowed him to enlist as an E-6 to finish his 20 years. After which he could retire as a Captain.

*Ring-Knocker: A service academy graduate who habitually taps his class ring on the desk so you'll see how very important he is.
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Old 27th April 2020, 06:09 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
And going in as an enlisted man is a black mark as far as the ring-knockers* are concerned.
The best officer I ever met in my brief Army "career" was a Captain who was being "RIF'd", i.e. kicked out, because he had been in 19 years and was only a Captain. The fact that he'd been an enlisted man for the first 15 not only didn't help, but actively counted against him. They generously allowed him to enlist as an E-6 to finish his 20 years. After which he could retire as a Captain.

*Ring-Knocker: A service academy graduate who habitually taps his class ring on the desk so you'll see how very important he is.
My dad told me of a similar situation that happened to an officer he knew. The guy was within 2 years of retirement, got passed over a second time, so was allowed to run out his time as enlisted.
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Old 27th April 2020, 07:59 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
If the administration changes from R to D, that bridge might not be burned after all. It's all about politics, but one political party lauds him as a hero.

If he can hold out for a year or so, his prospects might change significantly.

The internal politics are less partisan than that, but still brutal and cut-throat.

He laid a big mess in his superiors' laps. It doesn't really matter all that much why. It isn't like there's a shortage of Captains waiting to move up to flag rank and stay in the service.

He might get his star, but I don't think he'll be seeing much active duty afterward, whether he does or not.
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Old 30th April 2020, 05:44 AM   #384
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Just for the record, I appear to have been wrong about this situation.
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Old 30th April 2020, 10:35 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
And going in as an enlisted man is a black mark as far as the ring-knockers* are concerned.
The best officer I ever met in my brief Army "career" was a Captain who was being "RIF'd", i.e. kicked out, because he had been in 19 years and was only a Captain. The fact that he'd been an enlisted man for the first 15 not only didn't help, but actively counted against him. They generously allowed him to enlist as an E-6 to finish his 20 years. After which he could retire as a Captain.

*Ring-Knocker: A service academy graduate who habitually taps his class ring on the desk so you'll see how very important he is.
In most trades Captain is a physically demanding position that can be rough on people in their 40’s.

ETA:
(Army Captain that is, Navy Captain is a senior officer, while an Army Captain is a junior office who is needs to be able to keep up with the enlisted men working under him. A Navy Captain has a similar role and rank to an Army Colonel while an Army Captain has similar role and rank to a Navy Lieutenant.
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Old 30th April 2020, 11:20 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
In most trades Captain is a physically demanding position that can be rough on people in their 40’s.

ETA:
(Army Captain that is, Navy Captain is a senior officer, while an Army Captain is a junior office who is needs to be able to keep up with the enlisted men working under him. A Navy Captain has a similar role and rank to an Army Colonel while an Army Captain has similar role and rank to a Navy Lieutenant.
In this case he was CO of me and my fellow desk-jockies.
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Old 1st May 2020, 07:55 PM   #387
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Looks like it will be at least a month before the decision regarding Crozier's reinstatement will be decided. A more detailed investigation is being conducted.
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Old 1st May 2020, 08:14 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Looks like it will be at least a month before the decision regarding Crozier's reinstatement will be decided. A more detailed investigation is being conducted.
In other words, stalling while SecDef tries to figure out what Trump wants.
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