ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 3rd April 2020, 08:15 AM   #41
Shalamar
Dark Lord of the JREF
 
Shalamar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Somewhere Else
Posts: 4,861
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"LOL the libruls are all triggered because they didn't want a warship's crew to die for no reason." - Actual Republican Argument.

WHAT EVEN IS 2020?
I wasn't aware that joining the military meant possibily dying on a crowded ship due to a virus. Thanks to our extreme hyper-partisan right winger, now I know! bothsidesbad
__________________

"The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head."
Shalamar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 08:19 AM   #42
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 25,039
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Also total pedantic nitpick.

It's the USS Theodore Roosevelt, not the USS Roosevelt. The USS Roosevelt is an entirely different ship.

USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN 71) = Nimitz Class Aircraft Carrier, 1,092 foot long, displacement of over 100,000 tons, powered by two GE PWR Nuclear Reactors, crew of anywhere from 3,500-6,000 depending on exact mission. Named after Theodore Roosevelt, obvs.

USS Roosevelt (DDG-80) = Arleigh Burke Class Guided Missile Destroyer, 509 foot long, 9.200 ton displacement, powered by four GE Gas Turbines, crew of 380. Named after Franklin Roosevelt and no I don't know why they just went with "Roosevelt" since we've had ships named "USS Franklin Roosevelt" before.

Very different ships.
Pedantic nitpick...

Everyone on this forum is talking about the same ship no matter what they call it.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 08:43 AM   #43
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 91,458
I remembered this pearl of wisdom from another far right member


Originally Posted by logger View Post
I have a feeling he will follow his military team to the tee! He’s obviously not the military type.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 08:43 AM   #44
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 13,013
Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Does anyone else recall how the Navy covered up the name of the ship John McCain when Trump made a visit nearby on the off-chance that Trump might see the name and get upset?

This event makes about as much sense as that event.
__________________
On 22 JUL 2016, Candidate Donald Trump in his acceptance speech: "There can be no prosperity without law and order."
On 05 FEB 2019, President Donald Trump said in his Sate of the Union Address: "If there is going to be peace and legislation, there cannot be war and investigation."
On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 09:00 AM   #45
AnonyMoose
Muse
 
AnonyMoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Land of the Frozen Chosen
Posts: 801
The public image of the US military far outweighs the importance of its soldiers' lives. Projecting strength and perfection takes priority over anything else, even during peace time. There's no room for humanity in the military game of world domination.

This is true for any country that feels the constant need to wave around its phallic military prowess for all the world to 'ooh and aah' over.

This poor bugger is just more collateral damage. But I'm pretty sure the sailors' lives that he probably saved don't feel the same way... so he can take comfort in knowing that he did do the right thing in this unprecedented situation, even if the face-saving 'Top Brass' don't think so.
__________________
"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." ~ Emo Phillips

Last edited by AnonyMoose; 3rd April 2020 at 09:02 AM.
AnonyMoose is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 09:18 AM   #46
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 24,695
Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
But I'm pretty sure the sailors' lives that he probably saved don't feel the same way... so he can take comfort in knowing that he did do the right thing in this unprecedented situation, even if the face-saving 'Top Brass' don't think so.
You would be correct.

https://www.stripes.com/news/us/capt...heers-1.624732
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 09:21 AM   #47
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 18,924
Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
The public image of the US military far outweighs the importance of its soldiers' lives. Projecting strength and perfection takes priority over anything else, even during peace time. There's no room for humanity in the military game of world domination.

This is true for any country that feels the constant need to wave around its phallic military prowess for all the world to 'ooh and aah' over.

This poor bugger is just more collateral damage. But I'm pretty sure the sailors' lives that he probably saved don't feel the same way... so he can take comfort in knowing that he did do the right thing in this unprecedented situation, even if the face-saving 'Top Brass' don't think so.
Where is the evidence that the Navy had a lower level of concern before the letter? Where is the evidence that this was the right thing?
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 09:30 AM   #48
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 25,039
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Stars and Stripes used the wrong name of the ship in the article title.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 09:33 AM   #49
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 25,039
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
One thing I trust about the troops is that they can tell the difference between an actual leader, and a preening coxcomb.
On this ship, the leader is always the Captain and not the POTUS.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 09:33 AM   #50
bobdroege7
Master Poster
 
bobdroege7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,983
I served in the Navy and twice we changed our Captain, and the crew never chanted his name as he was piped off.

The messenger got fragged.

I feel for him, his family and his ex crew.
__________________
Un-american Jack-booted thug

Graduate of a liberal arts college!

Faster play faster faster play faster
bobdroege7 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 09:57 AM   #51
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 47,928
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
As someone formerly in the Navy, what he did is considered a no-no, and as the captain of a ship he should have known better.

Granted, it isn't wartime, so the risk is probably low right now, but the old wartime motto is "loose lips sink ships" and he publicly revealed information regarding the current state of battle readiness of the US Navy. And I think it's likely that this aircraft carrier is not the only Navy ship currently experiencing such issues. Essentially, he publicly revealed classified information.
Normally I would agree, but in this case I think he neds to honored as a whistleblower.
Sorry, but the Navy blew it big tme here,and the Captian is beind made a scapegoat.
But I think it is going to backfire bigtime on the Navy.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 09:57 AM   #52
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,657
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
certain jobs have inherent risks, that's life. The military isn't exactly a safe space kind job.
No, but I think it's supposed to be not safe on the basis of being shot at or blown up.


Just because a job has risks, that doesn't give an employer carte blance to disregard their employees welfare with 'oh, well you knew it was dangerous before you started'

I believe there are both acceptable and unacceptable risks when one is in the armed forces.

Acceptable risks include being shot at in the line of duty.


If the USMC engineers were complaining that they didn't have the correct protective gear, that the DERV was melting their hands and their eyes were being burnt out by wedling arcs cos they didn't have proper masks, would you also shrug and say 'they knew it was dangerous' when they signed up?


I don't think simply being in the military means you have to accept any and all risks because 'you knew it was dangerous'. That's utterly ridiculous.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 09:58 AM   #53
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 47,928
Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
I served in the Navy and twice we changed our Captain, and the crew never chanted his name as he was piped off.

The messenger got fragged.

I feel for him, his family and his ex crew.
Guarantered, morale in the whole Navy is going to crater after this.
And anybody who does not hink Morale is imporanat in maintaining a efficent fighting force is an idiot.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 10:02 AM   #54
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 47,928
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
I served in the US Army, and you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
Amused all the right wingers who have turned on the captain because he saved his crew at the expense of making the Trump Adminsitration look bad.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 10:03 AM   #55
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 47,928
Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
The public image of the US military far outweighs the importance of its soldiers' lives. Projecting strength and perfection takes priority over anything else, even during peace time. There's no room for humanity in the military game of world domination.

This is true for any country that feels the constant need to wave around its phallic military prowess for all the world to 'ooh and aah' over.

This poor bugger is just more collateral damage. But I'm pretty sure the sailors' lives that he probably saved don't feel the same way... so he can take comfort in knowing that he did do the right thing in this unprecedented situation, even if the face-saving 'Top Brass' don't think so.
The irony is this is going to make the Navy look terrible. Captain is going to be a national hero.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 10:05 AM   #56
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,859
This has nothing to do with the Numbnuts-in-Chief.

The U.S. military, all branches, have a long history of demoting/dismissing O-rates that speak out of school or speak truth to power.

Modern examples - Lynch, Hackworth, Marchinko.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 10:06 AM   #57
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 24,695
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The irony is this is going to make the Navy look terrible. Captain is going to be a national hero.
The Trumpers have already turned on him. I'm sure he'll be part of Hillary Clinton's sex pizza parlor child sex ring soon.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 10:07 AM   #58
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 47,928
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
government service ie: the Military, you volunteer, and you know the cost when you do. So.... silly lefties
Edited by Agatha:  Edited for rule 12. Please do not personalise your posts.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.

Last edited by Agatha; 3rd April 2020 at 03:16 PM.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 10:09 AM   #59
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 44,502
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
government service ie: the Military, you volunteer, and you know the cost when you do. So.... silly lefties
What little sense I can make of this seems stupid and wrong.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 10:09 AM   #60
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 18,924
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
This has nothing to do with the Numbnuts-in-Chief.

The U.S. military, all branches, have a long history of demoting/dismissing O-rates that speak out of school or speak truth to power.

Modern examples - Lynch, Hackworth, Marchinko.
Where is the evidence this guy spoke truth to power?
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 10:12 AM   #61
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,502
The only question now is whether Captain Crozier's next job will be as a U.S. Senator, or if he'll have to settle for a seat in the House. I am assuming he's still in the Navy for now, but one can't imagine him not retiring at the next available opportunity after this.

Either way, firing people like this almost never makes them go away. It tends to elevate their stature instead.
crescent is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 10:22 AM   #62
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 24,695
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Where is the evidence this guy spoke truth to power?
I don't know how far down the crazy do you want to go?

- The Captain was lying, for no reason, and the Navy really was just totally on top of handling the outbreak.

- The Captain and Navy where lying, there were never any sick sailors because the Navy replaced sailors with Rand Corporation Biorobots in 2011.

- HA you sheeple! You think aircraft carriers actually exist? Giant boats with airports on top of them? Obviously holographically projected with reverse engineered Atlantian technology.

- The Deep State is so on top of it's game that it seeded the command positions of warships on the off chance that a viral outbreak would hit one of the ships and the Captain could score political points against Trump...

Pick one. I don't care.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 10:26 AM   #63
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 18,924
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't know how far down the crazy do you want to go?

- The Captain was lying, for no reason, and the Navy really was just totally on top of handling the outbreak.

- The Captain and Navy where lying, there were never any sick sailors because the Navy replaced sailors with Rand Corporation Biorobots in 2011.

- HA you sheeple! You think aircraft carriers actually exist? Giant boats with airports on top of them? Obviously holographically projected with reverse engineered Atlantian technology.

- The Deep State is so on top of it's game that it seeded the command positions of warships on the off chance that a viral outbreak would hit one of the ships and the Captain could score political points against Trump...

Pick one. I don't care.
These are a lot of words to admit you don't have evidence that the Navy was or wasn't taking the problem seriously.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 10:41 AM   #64
Garrison
Philosopher
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 5,088
This basically about the fact he violated the chain of command, which means this is rough on the officer but pretty much inevitable.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 10:58 AM   #65
Scopedog
Muse
 
Scopedog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 647
NavAdmin 083/20* (published 23 March), Paragraph 4.a. states the following:
4. Guidance.
4.a. ROM ['Restriction of Movement'- defined in Paragraph 2.a.] personnel shall be directed to remain at home or in a comparable setting for 14 days ROM from the day of departure or contact. For transient personnel and those residing in close quarters such as unaccompanied housing or ships, temporary lodging meeting CDC guidance of separate sleeping and bathroom facilities shall be arranged, when available.

The original SF Chronicle article** was updated on 2 April with the following comments from Acting Navy Secretary Thomas Modly:
Quote:
“I heard about the letter from Capt. Crozier (Tuesday) morning, I know that our command organization has been aware of this for about 24 hours and we have been working actually the last seven days [NavAdmin 083/20 was published 11 days earlier, 23 March, the first USS Theodore Roosevelt cases were identified on or about 24 March***, the ship arrived at Guam on or after 26 March****, seven days before 2 April would be 27 March*****, and the date of the Captain's letter was 30 March**] to move those sailors off the ship and get them into accommodations in Guam. The problem is that Guam doesn’t have enough beds right now and we’re having to talk to the government there to see if we can get some hotel space, create tent-type facilities,” Modly said.

“We don’t disagree with the (captain) on that ship and we’re doing it in a very methodical way because it’s not the same as a cruise ship, that ship has armaments on it, it has aircraft on it, we have to be able to fight fires if there are fires on board the ship, we have to run a nuclear power plant, so there’s a lot of things that we have to do on that ship that make it a little bit different and unique but we’re managing it and we’re working through it,” he said.

“We’re very engaged in this, we’re very concerned about it and we’re taking all the appropriate steps,” Modly said.
* https://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-n...0/NAV20083.txt

** https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...h-15167883.php

*** https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ed/2910165001/

**** https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...5-000-n1169726

***** Arithmetic applied to Gregorian calendar

Last edited by Scopedog; 3rd April 2020 at 11:51 AM.
Scopedog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 11:44 AM   #66
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 25,163
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
This basically about the fact he violated the chain of command, which means this is rough on the officer but pretty much inevitable.
No; this doesn't strike me as a typical or inevitable response for writing a letter to the "wrong person".

If you do not receive what you believe to be an adequate response from an immediate superior in the chain of command to a question or concern you are allowed to go to the next levels if the issue is important enough. Accommodating this ability is the reason why leaders know who everyone in their chain of command is and not just the next link above them.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 11:47 AM   #67
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,859
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Where is the evidence this guy spoke truth to power?
The moment that letter made it into public view he was finished as a Naval officer.

One of the officers I cited as an example wrote a piece for the Army Times expressing disgust that both the Marines and the Infantry had no effective man-portable anti-tank weapon in inventory while our allies and enemies both had that capability

The story made it into general circulation and he was finished.

Hackworth made public statements criticizing the way the Vietnam war was conducted, and he was finished.

Richard Marchinko stepped on every toe in the Navy while doing rw-based security checks on Naval facilities, talked about it in public and his next stop was a courtroom and a federal facility for his involvement with a defense contractor who supplied exord to the SEALS - exord that was superior in function and effect to the G.I. versions.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 11:52 AM   #68
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 18,924
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
The moment that letter made it into public view he was finished as a Naval officer.

One of the officers I cited as an example wrote a piece for the Army Times expressing disgust that both the Marines and the Infantry had no effective man-portable anti-tank weapon in inventory while our allies and enemies both had that capability

The story made it into general circulation and he was finished.

Hackworth made public statements criticizing the way the Vietnam war was conducted, and he was finished.

Richard Marchinko stepped on every toe in the Navy while doing rw-based security checks on Naval facilities, talked about it in public and his next stop was a courtroom and a federal facility for his involvement with a defense contractor who supplied exord to the SEALS - exord that was superior in function and effect to the G.I. versions.
But those are examples with some evidence that the chain of command was not capable of addressing the situation, right? People seem to be alleging the same issue here. My question is where is the evidence for that?
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 01:10 PM   #69
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 26,967
Option A) The Captain could see that Washington was not taking action and went to desperate lengths to save his crew; or
Option B) Despite the Pentagon acting decisively, he just decided to throw his career away on a whim.
What seems more likely to you, Bob? No don't answer that, I'm not going to read it anyhow.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 01:12 PM   #70
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 12,805
Latest news on Crozier's removal:
Quote:
Navy probe to decide future of fired U.S. carrier commander
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ex...er/ar-BB128d9h
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 01:40 PM   #71
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 18,924
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Option A) The Captain could see that Washington was not taking action and went to desperate lengths to save his crew; or
Option B) Despite the Pentagon acting decisively, he just decided to throw his career away on a whim.
What seems more likely to you, Bob? No don't answer that, I'm not going to read it anyhow.
People have a lot of creative ways to wrote, "no Bob, I don't have evidence to assess if the Navy's response to the outbreak was appropriate or not."

I really don't know how to answer your question about what seems more likely. I haven't researched the relevant management studies to assess what seems more likely.

ETA: I do know from the video of sailors wishing the captain good bye for taking dramatic action to protect them from a virus are not practicing social distancing to protect themselves from that same virus.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 3rd April 2020 at 01:44 PM.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 02:03 PM   #72
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 12,805
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
People have a lot of creative ways to wrote, "no Bob, I don't have evidence to assess if the Navy's response to the outbreak was appropriate or not."

I really don't know how to answer your question about what seems more likely. I haven't researched the relevant management studies to assess what seems more likely.

ETA: I do know from the video of sailors wishing the captain good bye for taking dramatic action to protect them from a virus are not practicing social distancing to protect themselves from that same virus.


It's rather difficult on a navy ship. They don't even have separate cabins like cruise ships do. What do you suggest they do? Hang off the sides of the ship by ropes?
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 02:06 PM   #73
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 18,924
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
[/hilite]

It's rather difficult on a navy ship. They don't even have separate cabins like cruise ships do. What do you suggest they do? Hang off the sides of the ship by ropes?
I suggest they do not purposely gather in a tight crowd, open their mouths wide, and expel air and saliva out of them, for a completely optional event.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 02:13 PM   #74
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 12,805
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I suggest they do not purposely gather in a tight crowd, open their mouths wide, and expel air and saliva out of them, for a completely optional event.
They are in contact with each other all day long in tight quarters as is necessitated by the fact there are 4,800 sailors on that ship. Ninety-three have already tested positive and only about a quarter of the crew has been tested.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 3rd April 2020 at 02:16 PM.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 02:19 PM   #75
Scopedog
Muse
 
Scopedog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 647
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Option A) The Captain could see that Washington was not taking action and went to desperate lengths to save his crew; or
Option B) Despite the Pentagon acting decisively, he just decided to throw his career away on a whim.
What seems more likely to you, Bob? No don't answer that, I'm not going to read it anyhow.
The letter seems somewhat uncontroversial to me but if it needed exposure it probably should have remained within the military, possibly part of a 'Request Mast' proceeding (sometimes an avenue for whistleblowing and with a very quick turnaround time and resolution) or only to the Captain's congressperson for a 'CongrInt' inquiry (stands for 'congressional interest'- sometimes an avenue for whistleblowing, also very quick turnaround time). It's possible that might have derailed his career anyway, though. This story mostly only works if Acting Secretary Modly is lying about the seven days of effort (he might be).

Option C) The leaker, not the Captain, but someone he probably shouldn't have CC:ed, is a Winner of Reality.

Last edited by Scopedog; 3rd April 2020 at 02:31 PM.
Scopedog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 02:35 PM   #76
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 24,695
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Latest news on Crozier's removal:


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ex...er/ar-BB128d9h
That's meaningless. "Probe to Decide the Future Of" just means a dog and pony show to decide if he's going to retire now or push papers as the "Third Assistant Undersecretary at the office of Junior Attache in Charge of Basket Weaving" at the Pentagon or some Unified Combatant Command for a year or two until he retires.

His career is over. The question is only whether or not either he or the Navy can convince the other one to pretend it isn't for a few years to save face.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 02:41 PM   #77
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 18,924
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
They are in contact with each other all day long in tight quarters as is necessitated by the fact there are 4,800 sailors on that ship. Ninety-three have already tested positive and only about a quarter of the crew has been tested.
Which doesn't justify totally ignoring social distancing with what amounts to a social event.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 02:53 PM   #78
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 12,805
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Which doesn't justify totally ignoring social distancing with what amounts to a social event. on a ship where social distancing is virtually impossible.
FTFY
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 02:56 PM   #79
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 18,924
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
FTFY
And yet, here was a situation where social distancing was not virtually impossible. It was actually easy to do.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2020, 03:15 PM   #80
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 25,163
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
People have a lot of creative ways to wrote, "no Bob, I don't have evidence to assess if the Navy's response to the outbreak was appropriate or not."
The captain of this vessel, who was the person best in position to determine whether the response to the outbreak was adequate, gave a professional assessment that it was not. That's sufficient evidence that it was not.

He also gave a concise explanation for what should be done instead - which, despite his firing, the Navy now appears to be following ironically enough.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:01 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.