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Old 3rd April 2020, 03:16 PM   #81
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The captain of this vessel, who was the person best in position to determine whether the response to the outbreak was adequate, gave a professional assessment that it was not. That's sufficient evidence that it was not.
I would say he is not in a good place to make that assessment. There are other commands and stakeholders on and around that base that may need to be considered.


ETA:
https://www.postguam.com/news/local/...c4a62f176.html

Guam hospital has a history of poor quality. A lot of chamorro work at the base. Additional spread to that population could be really bad.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 3rd April 2020 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 3rd April 2020, 03:18 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But those are examples with some evidence that the chain of command was not capable of addressing the situation, right? People seem to be alleging the same issue here. My question is where is the evidence for that?
The question be mysterious to you, but to those of us who have been in service and have paid attention the question is cut and dried.

If you are a military officer and speak out on your own volition - on any subject related to the military service - and that speech doesn't please the powers that be you will be gone, period.

The officer in question did just that, and he's paying a predictable price for doing so.

Ask Stanley McChrystal what his experience was with talking out of school.
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Old 3rd April 2020, 03:21 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And yet, here was a situation where social distancing was not virtually impossible. It was actually easy to do.
Quote:

“It’s clear that the social distancing that has been put into place in society in general just isn’t doable in our operational context,” he said.
Retired lieutenant-general Guy Thibault, former Canadian Armed Forces’ second-in-command

You do realize these guys eat in a huge mess hall and sleep in shared berthing areas?
Quote:
On Navy ships, the vast majority of their crews live in shared areas called berthing compartments, with most bunks, or racks, stacked three deep. The main decks of ships, which are where medical and chow halls are located, are traversed by much of the crew several times per day.

Maintaining recommended social distancing in these spaces is not possible on the Roosevelt, Crozier wrote.
LA Times

Yeah...not gathering for the send-off of their captain was likely to have made a huge difference.



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Old 3rd April 2020, 03:21 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
The question be mysterious to you, but to those of us who have been in service and have paid attention the question is cut and dried.

If you are a military officer and speak out on your own volition - on any subject related to the military service - and that speech doesn't please the powers that be you will be gone, period.

The officer in question did just that, and he's paying a predictable price for doing so.

Ask Stanley McChrystal what his experience was with talking out of school.
A) I served

B) you are missing the point of my question.
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Old 3rd April 2020, 03:25 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Retired lieutenant-general Guy Thibault, former Canadian Armed Forces’ second-in-command

You do realize these guys eat in a huge mess hall and sleep in shared berthing areas?

LA Times

Yeah...not gathering for the send-off of their captain was likely to have made a huge difference.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7b4c2ad9d3.jpg

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7b6e74ff8b.jpg
I served aboard a boat even more cramped than that.

Limited ability to social distance does not justify applying no effort in this situation to social distance.
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Old 3rd April 2020, 03:29 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I served aboard a boat even more cramped than that.

Limited ability to social distance does not justify applying no effort in this situation to social distance.
Uh huh.
I now return you to your regular bobbing station...
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Old 3rd April 2020, 03:32 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Uh huh.
I now return you to your regular bobbing station...
Could the people in the video at the good bye have engaged in some level of social distancing?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I would like to hear why you think they cannot.


Are they justified in not socially distancing?
Your answer seems clearly yes. I have no opinion.
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Old 3rd April 2020, 03:33 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Could the people in the video at the good bye have engaged in some level of social distancing?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I would like to hear why you think they cannot.


Are they justified in not socially distancing?
Your answer seems clearly yes. I have no opinion.
I am skeptical of your claim. Please provide evidence.
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Old 3rd April 2020, 03:41 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I would say he is not in a good place to make that assessment. There are other commands and stakeholders on and around that base that may need to be considered.
The outbreak is not on the base. The outbreak is on the ship. The people on and around the base have absolutely no perspective on how bad it is, or how adequate the response measures have been.

The captain is in fact the only person in a good place to make the assessment.
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Old 3rd April 2020, 03:42 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Could the people in the video at the good bye have engaged in some level of social distancing?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I would like to hear why you think they cannot.


Are they justified in not socially distancing?
Your answer seems clearly yes. I have no opinion.
No thanks. It wouldn't matter what I said, you'd take a contrarian view.
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Old 3rd April 2020, 03:46 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Could the people in the video at the good bye have engaged in some level of social distancing?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I would like to hear why you think they cannot.
They cannot engage in social distancing while serving aboard the ship. Your scrutiny of their behavior at this few-minutes-long incident is misplaced and unreasonable; what difference would it have made for everyone to ensure a six-foot distance at this event, when they would have to immediately violate this separation once the event was over in order to get back to their quarters or serve at their stations?
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Old 3rd April 2020, 04:40 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
They cannot engage in social distancing while serving aboard the ship. Your scrutiny of their behavior at this few-minutes-long incident is misplaced and unreasonable; what difference would it have made for everyone to ensure a six-foot distance at this event, when they would have to immediately violate this separation once the event was over in order to get back to their quarters or serve at their stations?
Which is why if you were the first reply with this I would have agreed with you. I'm not arguing I'm reasonable and I'm not arguing it would make a difference.

But it was the comments that social distancing is not possible when it is obvious to you that social distancing was possible in the video.
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Old 3rd April 2020, 04:59 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But it was the comments that social distancing is not possible when it is obvious to you that social distancing was possible in the video.
It is equally obvious that it was also completely pointless in that situation, which I think was everyone else's point.
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Old 3rd April 2020, 05:05 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It is equally obvious that it was also completely pointless in that situation, which I think was everyone else's point.
I will have to take your word for it because that wasn't clear to me at all.
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Old 3rd April 2020, 08:39 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Could the people in the video at the good bye have engaged in some level of social distancing?

I think the answer is clearly yes.
Prove it.
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Old 4th April 2020, 05:08 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And yet, here was a situation where social distancing was not virtually impossible. It was actually easy to do.
Certainly nearly impossible.

I fully understand the need for regulations - but they generally provide for emergency situations, and this appears to have been an emergency.

OTOH, completely disembarking a nuclear vessel would also be a serious emergency.

Whatever, so long as they lose, I'm good. My only caveat is that I expect this went down the proper chain of command, rather than the Idiot in Chief throwing a hissy fit.
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Old 4th April 2020, 06:08 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Prove it.
A) I don't have to prove anything. My responsibility is to provide all the evidence I used to support my claim. And I will certainly do that. That is easy to do when you rely on very little evidence for a claim.

B) here is the video

https://youtu.be/QJEkg_Zs6o0

Between six and 25 seconds of the video, you will see sailors with greater distance between each other quickly gather into a crowd with shorter distance between each other. Instead of maintaining the level of social distance at 6 seconds, they minimize it by choice.

If they were maximizing social distancing, they would have not gathered in that crowd.

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Old 4th April 2020, 06:34 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I will have to take your word for it because that wasn't clear to me at all.
You have already acknowledged that those very same people would need to violate any social distancing immediately upon leaving the scene, as they returned to their quarters and duty stations. Which was the situation prior to the event as well.

Rendering any social distancing at that moment completely moot. If I have to spend six hours of every day within 3 feet of you, moving to 6 feet for a ten-minute goodbye cheer is pointless.
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Old 4th April 2020, 06:49 AM   #99
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Another view of the huge applause from his men

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-...-crew/12122184

Acutely embarrassing for the US Navy.
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Old 4th April 2020, 06:52 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And yet, here was a situation where social distancing was not virtually impossible. It was actually easy to do.
Clearly you have never served on a Navy ship

I have, and you are wrong!
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Old 4th April 2020, 07:08 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
You have already acknowledged that those very same people would need to violate any social distancing immediately upon leaving the scene, as they returned to their quarters and duty stations. Which was the situation prior to the event as well.

Rendering any social distancing at that moment completely moot. If I have to spend six hours of every day within 3 feet of you, moving to 6 feet for a ten-minute goodbye cheer is pointless.
Two points

My understanding is social distancing is deliberately increasing distance. So they wouldn't necessarily being violating social distancing on watch. To paraphrase another military document....social distancing, however slight.

And I'm not arguing that it has a point.
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Old 4th April 2020, 07:09 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Clearly you have never served on a Navy ship

I have, and you are wrong!
You can literally see in the video that they purposely crowded together. They could have practiced social distancing in that video. You are simply wrong.


I was an ELT on a 688. I made E6 right before I got out.

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Old 4th April 2020, 09:16 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Another view of the huge applause from his men

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-...-crew/12122184

Acutely embarrassing for the US Navy.
But....but...but...the chain of command is more important. It saves lives, just ask Colonel Jessup.

I really wonder what the military types think about Colonel Jessup. Son-of-a-bitch or saving lives?
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Old 4th April 2020, 09:37 AM   #104
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It’s absolutely clear, regardless of any possible issues with how he transmitted his letter, that Capt. Crozier put the safety of his crew above his career, and they knew it. He is an honorable man.

Last edited by sts60; 4th April 2020 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 4th April 2020, 09:45 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
It’s absolutely clear, regardless of any possible issues with how he transmitted his letter, that Capt. Crozier put the safety of his crew above his career, and they knew it. He is an honorable man.
Which just begs the question of, why should it affect his career? Yrs. I get it, it's the military and they do what they do, but "that's just the way it is" should not be an acceptable answer.
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Old 4th April 2020, 09:46 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
It’s absolutely clear, regardless of any possible issues with how he transmitted his letter, that Capt. Crozier put the safety of his crew above his career, and they knew it. He is an honorable man.
Examining the letter* again I noticed that it's missing the 'To:' line typically found in standard naval correspondence. This implies that it wasn't intended for the Captain's own command or for higher levels in his chain of command.

What was he actually concerned about?

A. Inappropriate focus on testing. (testing doesn't prevent spread)

B. Inappropriate quarantine and isolation. (not feasible to implement CDC mitigation measures on a ship)

What was his solution?

Maximum evacuation of personnel. (unprecedented and extreme but justifiable when not at war or under threat of war)

The first cases were confirmed probably on 23 or 24 March**. The USS Theodore Roosevelt arrived at Guam probably on 26 or 27 March***. Acting Navy Secretary Modly said they started working on the problem, including evacuation measures, on 27 March* (seven days before the 2 April SF Chronicle update). The letter was dated 30 March.

The reason he's been relieved of command (whether right or wrong) is because he embarassed everyone between him and the Acting Navy Secretary. I'd like to know what happened with the Captain and his chain of command between 27 and 30 March. The question is, what was everyone in that hierarchy doing or not doing between 27 and 30 March? Were they only doing testing and limited evacuation? Were they also negotiating with Guam as stated by Secretary Modly*? Would the Navy's actions taken after 30 March have been the same with or without the letter? Did the Captain attempt other bureaucratic avenues for expediting maximum evacuation between 27 and 30 March (understanding that the evacuation of a war-ready, floating, nuclear military city under these circumstances is unprecedented)? It seems that determining whether this Captain is a whistleblowing hero or not is difficult to ascertain without answering most of these questions.

* https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...h-15167883.php

** https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ed/2910165001/

*** https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...5-000-n1169726

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Old 4th April 2020, 09:52 AM   #107
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I'm guessing there'll be a congressional investigation at some point. Sooner the better.
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Old 4th April 2020, 09:55 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by scopedog
It seems that determining whether this Captain is a whistleblowing hero or not is difficult...
I’m not claiming he’s a hero, although his crew seems to have some thoughts along those lines. I’m merely pointing out, regardless of the execution, his actions put the men and women of his command above his career. And that is honorable.

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Old 4th April 2020, 10:04 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
I’m not claiming he’s a hero, although his crew seems to have some thoughts along those lines. I’m merely pointing out, regardless of the execution, his actions put the men and women of his command above his career. And that is honorable.
What if the sacrifice of his career was unneccasary (because the Navy was going to mass evacuate anyway)? I would like to give the benefit of the doubt that he would only do it if it was absolutely neccessary, but I wouldn't assume it in a discussion on the International Skeptics Forum.
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Old 4th April 2020, 10:28 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And it is hard to assess how much sickness is acceptable for a carrier.
On the contrary, it is very simple. I personally don't know how to do it, but the Navy plans EVERYthing about its operations. Naval ships, as I previously stated, are essentially closed ecosystems. A naval sickbay, while it CAN provide LIMITED general health care, is not set up for large scale generic hospital duty. The closest analogy would be a trauma center, geared towards physical injuries and their rapid treatment (ideally to get the crewmember back to duty ASAP). A viral wildfire would rapidly overwhelm any sickbay and put the entire crew at risk.

And, apparently, that was whart things were coming to onborad the Roosevelt. Hence the Captain's letter.
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Old 4th April 2020, 10:31 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
The Captain broke the veil of secrecy because Trump...? Thats a bit of a stretch. But please bring on the friday outrage.
No, he broke the rule of secrecy that Trump imposed. Do pay attention.
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Old 4th April 2020, 10:33 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
He willingly joined the military, he wasn't forced to, people in this day and age if you don't know that you're giving up your rights by joining the military then I don't know what to tell you
And what was he to do when his men, whom he is responsible for, were getting sicker and sicker and he was getting no support from his Chain of Command?

What was he to do, apple? Salute, say "yes sir", and let his crew die?
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Old 4th April 2020, 10:39 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
And what was he to do when ... he was getting no support from his Chain of Command?
Where did you find this information?

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Old 4th April 2020, 10:40 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Does anyone else recall how the Navy covered up the name of the ship John McCain when Trump made a visit nearby on the off-chance that Trump might see the name and get upset?

This event makes about as much sense as that event.
It's also another example of how the military is becoming saturated with Trump loyalists, making it less likely they would stand with their Constitutional duty in the event it ever does come to removing the GOP by main force.
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Old 4th April 2020, 10:44 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Where is the evidence that the Navy had a lower level of concern before the letter? Where is the evidence that this was the right thing?
The military, but especially the Navy, vets it's officer candidates VERY carefully. A carrier CO is probably the most scrutinized of all (short of a submariner). They are not prone to "flaking out" and are well aware of the CoC and their responsibilities to it.

The fact that he even wrote such a letter shows what an extraordinary situation the crisis onboard had become.
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Old 4th April 2020, 10:52 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If the USMC engineers were complaining that they didn't have the correct protective gear, that the DERV was melting their hands and their eyes were being burnt out by wedling arcs cos they didn't have proper masks, would you also shrug and say 'they knew it was dangerous' when they signed up?
Knowing conservatives these days, I would not put it past them. These are the sorts of thugs that would have supported the Tuskeegee Experiments.


Quote:
I don't think simply being in the military means you have to accept any and all risks because 'you knew it was dangerous'. That's utterly ridiculous.
Welcome to the GOP circa 21st century.
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Old 4th April 2020, 11:00 AM   #117
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Tuskeegee Experiments? Hell, they'd support Aktion T4!
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Old 4th April 2020, 11:02 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
NavAdmin 083/20* (published 23 March), Paragraph 4.a. states the following:
4. Guidance.
4.a. ROM ['Restriction of Movement'- defined in Paragraph 2.a.] personnel shall be directed to remain at home or in a comparable setting for 14 days ROM from the day of departure or contact. For transient personnel and those residing in close quarters such as unaccompanied housing or ships, temporary lodging meeting CDC guidance of separate sleeping and bathroom facilities shall be arranged, when available.

The original SF Chronicle article** was updated on 2 April with the following comments from Acting Navy Secretary Thomas Modly:


* https://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-n...0/NAV20083.txt

** https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...h-15167883.php

*** https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ed/2910165001/

**** https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...5-000-n1169726

***** Arithmetic applied to Gregorian calendar
Quote:
we’re managing it and we’re working through it,”
This is the same regime that authorized business loanns and still hasn't given the banks expected to make them clear guidance how to do them.

This is the same regime that supposedly invoked Defense Production, but still hasn't given GM a contract to actually do the ventillators.

This is the same regime whose spokesman said the Stategic Reserve was only for Federal use THEN CHANGED THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE because it contradicted him.
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Old 4th April 2020, 11:06 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
ETA: I do know from the video of sailors wishing the captain good bye for taking dramatic action to protect them from a virus are not practicing social distancing to protect themselves from that same virus.
And here is the typical stormTrumper playbook in action: always punch down.
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Old 4th April 2020, 11:07 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm guessing there'll be a congressional investigation at some point. Sooner the better.
Already being talked about (or started).
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