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Old 4th April 2020, 11:15 AM   #121
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
No, he broke the rule of secrecy that Trump imposed. Do pay attention.
Can't evac the the ship, China would see. Better to slip the body bags off under cover of darkness. Because they have no spies in Guam that would see that.

They always make these things like the secrecy matters to keep up the appearance of war readiness. Bull ****. We American citizens are the target of the propaganda. The facade of our John Wayne military keeps those billions of taxpayer dollars flowing.
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Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 4th April 2020, 11:16 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The captain is in fact the only person in a good place to make the assessment.
The captain is the master of the ship. EVERYTHING that happens onboard is ultimately on his shoulders, both morally and legally. That's why traditionally they have been afforded so much authority.

But that model doesn't suit the weird combination of micromanaging and neglect that is the Trump regime.
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Old 4th April 2020, 11:20 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I will have to take your word for it because that wasn't clear to me at all.
I'm bored at the moment so I'll bite:

As I read it, it is your contention that people who were just minutes before standing watches and working side by side in close, confined spaces were expected to social distance from the same people they were just in close contact with for the sendoff then go back to working side by side in close confined spaces with the same people they just were distancing from?

And you don't see how stupid that sounds?
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Old 4th April 2020, 11:21 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
And here is the typical stormTrumper playbook in action: always punch down.
I was a sailor. So it isn't punching down. And it is bizarre to suggest a deontological libertarian is a Trump supporter.
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Old 4th April 2020, 11:24 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You can literally see in the video that they purposely crowded together. They could have practiced social distancing in that video. You are simply wrong.


I was an ELT on a 688. I made E6 right before I got out.
So basically you just admitted that you know better. I can only therefore conclude you are being deliberately dense.
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Old 4th April 2020, 11:25 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
I'm bored at the moment so I'll bite:

As I read it, it is your contention that people who were just minutes before standing watches and working side by side in close, confined spaces were expected to social distance from the same people they were just in close contact with for the sendoff then go back to working side by side in close confined spaces with the same people they just were distancing from?

And you don't see how stupid that sounds?
A) they were likely not standing watch minutes before. If I were betting, I would say most of them haven't stood watch in an hour.

B) im indifferent to if it sounds stupid or not. I'm perfectly willing to put that expectation on them.
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Old 4th April 2020, 11:29 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
So basically you just admitted that you know better. I can only therefore conclude you are being deliberately dense.
It is my time in service that I'm able to clearly see the people in the video could be social distancing and choosing not to.
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Old 4th April 2020, 11:30 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I was a sailor. So it isn't punching down. And it is bizarre to suggest a deontological libertarian is a Trump supporter.
Libertarians are the "useful idiots" of the right under the best of circumstances. And if the jackboot fits...
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Old 4th April 2020, 11:32 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
A) they were likely not standing watch minutes before. If I were betting, I would say most of them haven't stood watch in an hour.
Source?

Quote:
B) im indifferent to if it sounds stupid or not. I'm perfectly willing to put that expectation on them.
Despte all reason and logic.
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Old 4th April 2020, 11:33 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Libertarians are the "useful idiots" of the right under the best of circumstances. And if the jackboot fits...
Libertarians are pretty radically anti cop and anti military.
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Old 4th April 2020, 11:35 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Source?
There are fewer watches in Port. Plus, after watch you have some responsibilities to take care of and there are more people on watch rotation in a carrier. Most people will simply be more than minutes from watch, even when doing port and starboard watches.
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Old 4th April 2020, 11:46 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Libertarians are pretty radically anti cop and anti military.
And yet that always seems to lead to your crowd supporting conservatives...
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Old 4th April 2020, 11:48 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There are fewer watches in Port. Plus, after watch you have some responsibilities to take care of and there are more people on watch rotation in a carrier. Most people will simply be more than minutes from watch, even when doing port and starboard watches.
And when not on watch they still have duties to perform...
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Old 4th April 2020, 12:09 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
And when not on watch they still have duties to perform...
Which is why I didn't say anything about duties. I reserved my comment to watch standing.
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Old 4th April 2020, 12:12 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
And yet that always seems to lead to your crowd supporting conservatives...
I have posted here a long time. Which politicians do I support?
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Old 4th April 2020, 12:47 PM   #136
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This is silly. I think it is clear from responses that I was right that they could have engaged I social distancing. Many think it would be pointless and I'm not arguing with it. The rest is just dealing with degrees of incredulity that I would bother stating they could social distance.
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Old 4th April 2020, 01:21 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
This is silly. I think it is clear from responses that I was right that they could have engaged I social distancing. Many think it would be pointless and I'm not arguing with it. The rest is just dealing with degrees of incredulity that I would bother stating they could social distance.
The biggest problem I see is that the thread isn't about whether social distancing, isolation, and quarantine on the USS Theodore Roosevelt is ever feasible in some circumstances (the Captain stated that it was, such as all Officer's berths) but that its unfeasible often enough to warrant expeditious mass evacuation. Maybe you should let it go.

Last edited by Scopedog; 4th April 2020 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 4th April 2020, 01:23 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
The biggest problem I see is that the thread isn't about whether social distancing, isolation, and quarantine on the USS Theodore Roosevelt is ever feasible in some circumstanes (the Captain stated that it was, such as all Officer's berths) but that its unfeasible often enough to warrant mass evacuation. Maybe you should let it go.
That is fair.
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Old 4th April 2020, 01:29 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
The biggest problem I see is that the thread isn't about whether social distancing, isolation, and quarantine on the USS Theodore Roosevelt is ever feasible in some circumstanes (the Captain stated that it was, such as all Officer's berths) but that its unfeasible often enough to warrant expeditious mass evacuation. Maybe you should let it go.
Indeed. A relative few could have been kept isolated but let's face some reality: By the time symptoms started appearing, the entire crew had been exposed and likely infected. The most incompetent dolt with a medical degree would know that and would also know that the Stick would lose its combat readiness in a matter of days - not weeks - once symptoms presented.

So, even if we set aside the crew's well being as regards the virus, there was no reason to delay getting the bulk of the crew off the ship ASAP because the ship would not be mission ready regardless.
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Old 4th April 2020, 01:35 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Indeed. A relative few could have been kept isolated but let's face some reality: By the time symptoms started appearing, the entire crew had been exposed and likely infected. The most incompetent dolt with a medical degree would know that and would also know that the Stick would lose its combat readiness in a matter of days - not weeks - once symptoms presented.

So, even if we set aside the crew's well being as regards the virus, there was no reason to delay getting the bulk of the crew off the ship ASAP because the ship would not be mission ready regardless.
The question then is, was there a place in Guam to evacuate them to when the ship arrived? Was the mass evacuation being coordinated by 30 March, and if it was, at what stage was the planning? The existence of the Captain's letter without a 'To:' line suggests, at the very least, that coordination and planning was non-existent or not at an adequate stage. I won't assume anything yet, though.
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Old 4th April 2020, 01:38 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Indeed. A relative few could have been kept isolated but let's face some reality: By the time symptoms started appearing, the entire crew had been exposed and likely infected. The most incompetent dolt with a medical degree would know that and would also know that the Stick would lose its combat readiness in a matter of days - not weeks - once symptoms presented.

So, even if we set aside the crew's well being as regards the virus, there was no reason to delay getting the bulk of the crew off the ship ASAP because the ship would not be mission ready regardless.
The biggest reason to delay would not be to jeopardize others on the base or off it it is a small base (sort of....not many are stationed there but there is a lot of empty stuff from earlier times).
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Old 4th April 2020, 01:43 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
The question then is, was there a place in Guam to evacuate them to when the ship arrived?
The Navy does have hospital ships and the Air Force has planes to take the crew wherever they needed to go to be quarantined/treated properly, regardless of the facilities available on Guam.
Quote:
Was the mass evacuation being coordinated by 30 March, and if it was, at what stage was the planning? The existence of the Captain's letter without a 'To:' line suggests, at the very least, that coordination and planning was non-existent or not at an adequate stage. I won't assume anything yet, though.
I don't know the full story either, but USN captains aren't selected for the most prestigious commands (command of an aircraft carrier is as good as it gets for a captain) if they have a tendency to ignore the chain of command or panic under pressure, so whatever response might have been in process I tend to believe was probably inadequate. If it had been adequate, I don't think the letter would exist.

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Old 4th April 2020, 01:48 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
The Navy does have hospital ships and the Air Force has planes to take the crew wherever they needed to go to be quarantined/treated properly, regardless of the facilities available on Guam.

I don't know the full story either, but USN captains aren't selected for the most prestigious commands (command of an aircraft carrier is as good as it gets for a captain) if they have a tendency to ignore the chain of command or panic under pressure, so whatever response might have been in process I tend to believe was probably inadequate. If it had been adequate, I don't think the letter would exist.
His chain of command went through the rear admiral aboard his carrier. If the response is inadequate, what does bypassing the rear admiral do? If he thinks the rear admiral is doing his job poorly the captain doesn't say it. If the rear admiral is doing his job well, the letter from the captain might do better coming from the rear admiral.

If I was the rear admiral I would be pissed.
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Old 4th April 2020, 05:37 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
This is silly. I think it is clear from responses that I was right that they could have engaged I social distancing. Many think it would be pointless and I'm not arguing with it. The rest is just dealing with degrees of incredulity that I would bother stating they could social distance.
IOW, you shot your arrows into the ocean, and are declaring victory preparatory to going home.
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Old 4th April 2020, 05:40 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
IOW, you shot your arrows into the ocean, and are declaring victory preparatory to going home.
Ultimately, what do you and I disagree on in this thread?
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Old 4th April 2020, 06:21 PM   #146
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I haven't heard much about the sailors affected. I'd think the brass would be itching to find "Sailor Zero" so that they could throw him in prison for the rest of his career. And maybe all the others who got sick as well.

There's always blame to be placed in the military, and it doesn't have to be limited to the boss.
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Old 4th April 2020, 07:51 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Other news sources have confirmed this. It is certainly outrageous; the man is a hero.
While I don't think he deserves dismissal, I don't see how he's a "hero."
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Old 4th April 2020, 08:10 PM   #148
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His military career is over. If this was just more of Trump's pettiness, expect a reduction in rank or even a court marital
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Old 4th April 2020, 08:14 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You can literally see in the video that they purposely crowded together. They could have practiced social distancing in that video. You are simply wrong.
You can literally see in the video that they crowded together as the came forward because they were restricted by barrier ropes on both sides


Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I was an ELT on a 688. I made E6 right before I got out.
Then you ought to know better.

The CIC is a pretty cramped area, a number of people in a small space Difficult to practice social distancing there.

In crew quarters is the same, you're packed in close quarters with very little personal space. Almost impossible to practice social distancing there.

(NOTE: I with a group that were lucky to have our own quarters on the hangar deck. I was Air Force but served with the Navy in what was known as "Wasp Afloat". The Navy didn't have an aircraft engineer trade at that time, so all their Wasp Helicopters were serviced by the Air Force.)
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Old 4th April 2020, 08:16 PM   #150
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You don't share an asset's combat readiness with anyone outside the chain of command that has a confirmed need to know. Easy peasy. The Captain knew better than this.

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Old 4th April 2020, 08:19 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You can literally see in the video that they crowded together as the came forward because they were restricted by barrier ropes on both sides
They could have practiced social distancing by choosing not to come forward.
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Old 4th April 2020, 09:39 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Does anyone else recall how the Navy covered up the name of the ship John McCain when Trump made a visit nearby on the off-chance that Trump might see the name and get upset?

This event makes about as much sense as that event.
The White House requested it. The navy refused.
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Old 4th April 2020, 11:02 PM   #153
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Look dying from easily preventable diseases and being sacrificed for political gain of your superiors are both proud and longstanding traditions in any army since the dawn of time.

It's only that recently some bleeding heart liberals have used this science stuff to protect the lives of the common soldier. Fully unnatural I say.

As so aptly put by Tennyson 'theirs is not to wonder why, theirs is but to do and die'

After all, the brilliant economic packages that save the companies in the US have made several million people jobless and destitute by the time this crisis is over, so they'll be happy to replace soldiers dying from the virus anyway. At a lower payscale.
Win win situation for Trump.
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Old 5th April 2020, 11:19 AM   #154
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Captain Crozier has tested positive for coronavirus.
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Old 5th April 2020, 02:11 PM   #155
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The video of him leaving shows him shaking hands with someone. Oops. I'm sure someone who shares my first name will be along soon to ask for proof.
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Old 5th April 2020, 03:30 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
The video of him leaving shows him shaking hands with someone. Oops.
Fake news. Nothing to see here. There is no outbreak on the ship. Asking for an evacuation was irresponsible.
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Old 5th April 2020, 03:32 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
You don't share an asset's combat readiness with anyone outside the chain of command that has a confirmed need to know. Easy peasy. The Captain knew better than this.
Baloney; the only people he "shared" it with were fellow command officers on the same ship, who obviously knew about the situation before the captain even drafted the letter.
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Old 5th April 2020, 03:47 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Good grief, why? "Loss of trust and confidence" over what? What else was he supposed to do? Methinks something stinks here.
He caused embarrassment to his bosses, especially Trump. Hence his head must roll.
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Old 5th April 2020, 05:31 PM   #159
ChristianProgressive
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
They could have practiced social distancing by choosing not to come forward.
Again, going from working side by side to social distancing and immediately being side by side doesn't make any sense. You are just looking to distract from Trump shooting the messenger.
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Old 5th April 2020, 10:32 PM   #160
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Again, going from working side by side to social distancing and immediately being side by side doesn't make any sense. You are just looking to distract from Trump shooting the messenger.
I try to spend as little of my time thinking about Trump as possible. Not everything is about him.

Again, I said repeatedly im not debating it's efficacy. It isn't an efficacy issue for me.

ETA: the Navy is where I developed all my habits around fully committing to rules with poor efficacy.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 5th April 2020 at 11:02 PM.
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