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Old 6th April 2020, 11:15 PM   #201
Checkmite
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Did the man give that speech and not expect that his words would end up on TV?
Or is he naïve and stupid?
Heh.
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Old 7th April 2020, 12:34 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
There is a sound recording that has been posted, of the address as it was being given - presumably recorded by a crew member, since the address was given on the ship itself via the intercom system. The recording also captures the reactions of crew members in the background at certain points during the speech. The reaction after the "too naive or too stupid" remark is particularly...particular.

Thank you for providing that link.

Modly's diatribe to the crew of the Theodore Roosevelt offers one of the more striking examples of not knowing when to quit digging that I have encountered in quite some time. And that is saying something after three years of Trump and Toadies.

I can't imagine what thought processes could have even led him to believe that flying to Guam and giving a speech 'to the crew' () at all was a good idea, but it is clear that competence was not a factor in any of them.

To make the speech that he did just compounds the incompetence.And this guy wants the sailors to take their problems up the chain of command? Which would be, ultimately, to him? To avoid people "with an agenda"? Like the media?

Good grief.
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Old 7th April 2020, 12:48 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Modly apologies for remarks as key lawmakers call for his resignation https://trib.al/e7DzIIp

He's gone for sure, there's nothing Trump hate's more than admitting fault and showing weakness.


Did the man give that speech and not expect that his words would end up on TV?
Or is he naïve and stupid?

The answer to that question is, obviously, "Yes". But of course he knew that his words would end up on the media. He would not have flown to the other side of the world to make it, in person, if he didn't think so. Classic photo op.

The naivety and stupidity are rooted in his inability to realize how badly such a speech would backfire on him.


From the linked article;
Quote:
When asked for comment on Modly’s remarks to the Roosevelt crew, Sen. Jim Inhofe, R-Okla., Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, did not weigh in either way, saying he was focusing on what the Navy is doing to contain the spread of COVID-19 on its ships.

"I have asked Navy leaders to provide greater clarity on unit-level policies to prevent service members from getting and transmitting COVID-19 and support unit leaders in rapidly responding to outbreaks as they occur.”

In yet another stark example of naivety and stupidity, the Honorable Senator from Oklahoma seems unaware that he is asking those leaders to do exactly what Capt. Crozier has just been crucified for doing.

Yeah. Count on it, Jimmy boy. They're all going to rush forward and put their own necks on the chopping block. It isn't like they don't have some glaring example of exactly what will happen to them if they do their jobs with honor and integrity.
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Old 7th April 2020, 05:41 AM   #204
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That was a not-pology.
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Old 7th April 2020, 06:09 AM   #205
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Seems weird that the captain loses his job for the speaking mistake but secnav gets to keep his.
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Old 7th April 2020, 06:59 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Seems weird that the captain loses his job for the speaking mistake but secnav gets to keep his.
*so far.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that continuing for much longer.
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Old 7th April 2020, 07:43 AM   #207
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He should have been removed. As a former sailor aboard a nuclear aircraft carrier, its basically certain that as soon as the first guy was tested, nearly the entire crew had been exposed and probably were already carrying covid. They should have quarantined on board. He also should have kept it quite. We nor our opposition in the world need to know.
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Old 7th April 2020, 07:50 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
He should have been removed. As a former sailor aboard a nuclear aircraft carrier, its basically certain that as soon as the first guy was tested, nearly the entire crew had been exposed and probably were already carrying covid. They should have quarantined on board. He also should have kept it quite. We nor our opposition in the world need to know.
Sure. Because we know it worked great on cruise ships...where there are actual walls between quarters. "Let them get sick and die. They knew the risks when they signed up."
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Old 7th April 2020, 07:53 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
He should have been removed. As a former sailor aboard a nuclear aircraft carrier, its basically certain that as soon as the first guy was tested, nearly the entire crew had been exposed and probably were already carrying covid. They should have quarantined on board. He also should have kept it quite. We nor our opposition in the world need to know.
What does being a former sailor have to do with it? Is that like a weird appeal to authority? Were you involved in decisions like the ones that Captain was or did you just follow orders? Do you have any specific insight related to this type of situation? During your time on a ship, did you guys deal with a pandemic? Which one? How did they handle it? If they didn't have the correct medical supplies or equipment to quarantine, should they just be left to die out at sea? Why would he keep quiet when the sailors he cares about could be dying on his watch?

I'm super ******* happy you weren't in charge of this at all, and I'm glad you aren't in charge of a ship currently. Mind explaining why you didn't become a Captain? I just want to compare your judgments to his. You know, since you brought it up and all.
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Old 7th April 2020, 08:08 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
He should have been removed. As a former sailor aboard a nuclear aircraft carrier, its basically certain that as soon as the first guy was tested, nearly the entire crew had been exposed and probably were already carrying covid. They should have quarantined on board. He also should have kept it quite. We nor our opposition in the world need to know.
As a former sailor I think he was dead right.
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Old 7th April 2020, 08:12 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
As a former sailor I think he was dead right.
To send the letter?
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Old 7th April 2020, 08:16 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
M

Did the man give that speech and not expect that his words would end up on TV?
Seriously, that was one of the initial defenses. "They were not meant to be public"


Quote:
Or is he naïve and stupid?
As I said above, if he did it on a "private" Facebook group, I could call it naive. This goes well beyond that.
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Old 7th April 2020, 08:25 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
To send the letter Email?
We all know how fun it is to be technically right around here.
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Old 7th April 2020, 08:26 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
He should have been removed. As a former sailor aboard a nuclear aircraft carrier, its basically certain that as soon as the first guy was tested, nearly the entire crew had been exposed and probably were already carrying covid. They should have quarantined on board. He also should have kept it quite. We nor our opposition in the world need to know.
Quote:
You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives!
It's just like on the ship, right? Yeah, those sailors will die, but their death, while tragic, would save lives, right? Because it's better that they die and the opposition not find out.

I've asked it above, and I ask you directly: do you think Colonel Jessup is an American Hero or a son-of-a-bitch?
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Old 7th April 2020, 08:32 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
It's just like on the ship, right? Yeah, those sailors will die, but their death, while tragic, would save lives, right? Because it's better that they die and the opposition not find out.

I've asked it above, and I ask you directly: do you think Colonel Jessup is an American Hero or a son-of-a-bitch?
In this scenario, the captain is colonel Jessup. He is the one that violated procedure.

Jessup thought he should be making decisions for his people that big marine had already made (Santiago's fitness to serve). Here, the captain thought he should be making decisions for his crew and ship that the big navy already made (speed of which the crew should be removed).

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Old 7th April 2020, 10:57 AM   #216
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Trump Retweets

Amber Smith
@AmberSmithUSA
President Trump 'to get involved' in Thomas Modly-Capt. Brett Crozier dispute
Trump ‘to get involved’ in Thomas Modly-Capt. Brett Crozie
President Trump said Monday he is
washingtontimes.com
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Old 7th April 2020, 11:12 AM   #217
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Modly was ordered to apologize by Defense Secretary Mark Esper.
Modly should resign. Anyone with such bad judgment does not belong in his position.
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Old 7th April 2020, 11:16 AM   #218
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Crew being told they had no right to record Modly and to delete from their social media.

Someone REALLY needs to learn the First Rule of Holes. And a little about how the internet works.
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Old 7th April 2020, 11:26 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Modly was ordered to apologize by Defense Secretary Mark Esper.
Modly should resign. Anyone with such bad judgment does not belong in his position.
I hope Mody is not given the option of resigning. He should be publicly fired in a humiliating manner. Humiliating the captain was exactly what Mody sought to do when he traveled half way around the world to berate the captain in front of his men.

Can you imagine? The captain had already been removed from his command, his career in tatters, and was in isolation with Covid-19. Yet that wasn't enough to satisfy the spite raging in Mody. The captain had "betrayed" Mody! He had to be publicly flayed. And the captain's men, who applauded the captain as he left the ship, had to be taught a lesson about who really had the power and control above them. Not the citizens of the USA, but Trump and his circle of brown nosers.

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Old 7th April 2020, 11:34 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Crew being told they had no right to record Modly and to delete from their social media.

Someone REALLY needs to learn the First Rule of Holes. And a little about how the internet works.
How about that little ditty about when it's pointless to close a barn door?

A department called "Public Affairs" should probably know better than to act in ways that can only make the situation look worse.

This is the fundamental issue from the start. If the captain was wrong to disseminate his concerns too widely, the way to handle his discipline would be quietly. His carrier wasn't going to be sent into action anytime soon given the infection, making the command custodial anyway. His CO could have informed him that he'd need to start planning for his retirement and to turn over his duties to the XO, the crew could have been properly taken care of, and then a couple weeks later announce his retirement.

If there was ever a situation where an officer's bad judgement (if it was bad judgement; personally, I think he was justified in calling attention to a serious emergency that he felt his chain of command was ******* up) should be corrected quietly, this is it. Punishing an officer for being [over-]zealous in protecting the people under his command is simply never going to look good to the American public.
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Old 7th April 2020, 11:45 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Crew being told they had no right to record Modly and to delete from their social media.

Someone REALLY needs to learn the First Rule of Holes. And a little about how the internet works.
I don't think that it's true that the sailors needed Modly's permission to record him and to post it on FB.
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Old 7th April 2020, 12:10 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I don't think that it's true that the sailors needed Modly's permission to record him and to post it on FB.
Correct. There's something called "reasonable expectation of privacy". When you give an address to 5000 people over a PA system, it doesn't exist.
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Old 7th April 2020, 12:12 PM   #223
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Mobly just resigned.
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Old 7th April 2020, 12:28 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Mobly just resigned.
Time for Trump to get another pair of clownshoes to fill another post.
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Old 7th April 2020, 12:30 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Crew being told they had no right to record Modly and to delete from their social media.

Someone REALLY needs to learn the First Rule of Holes. And a little about how the internet works.
Unfortunately, Trump lackeys have never been terribly skilled at either forward thinking or learning.
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Old 7th April 2020, 12:52 PM   #226
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My brother is a Naval officer. I know that he would have made a similar decision as the Captain. The first priority of any military officer is the people under his or her command.

Yes, the firing was inevitable, but should have been handled in a much different fashion.

I also have an enlisted step-son; I hope that his officers have the integrity of Captain Crozier
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Old 7th April 2020, 01:03 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
My brother is a Naval officer. I know that he would have made a similar decision as the Captain. The first priority of any military officer is the people under his or her command.

Yes, the firing was inevitable, but should have been handled in a much different fashion.

I also have an enlisted step-son; I hope that his officers have the integrity of Captain Crozier
There are a lot of assumptions here. For example, "The first priority of any military officer is the people under his or her command, that is why the lieutenant felt justified sending an email to the entire chain of command that he felt PMS reporting was hurting the operational readiness of the people under his command."

Obviously, first priority is not actual justification. There is more things that need to be factored. Obviously the captain knows that was the first priority, so what did he think the admiral above him on that very same ship was doing? That captain was under that admiral's command. Did he think that admiral did not feel it was his first priority?
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Old 7th April 2020, 01:15 PM   #228
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Who's "stupid" now?
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Old 7th April 2020, 01:15 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
What does being a former sailor have to do with it? Is that like a weird appeal to authority?
It was a tongue and cheek reference to an early post to the same effect.

Quote:
Were you involved in decisions like the ones that Captain was or did you just follow orders? Do you have any specific insight related to this type of situation? During your time on a ship, did you guys deal with a pandemic? Which one? How did they handle it? If they didn't have the correct medical supplies or equipment to quarantine, should they just be left to die out at sea? Why would he keep quiet when the sailors he cares about could be dying on his watch?

I'm super ******* happy you weren't in charge of this at all, and I'm glad you aren't in charge of a ship currently. Mind explaining why you didn't become a Captain? I just want to compare your judgments to his. You know, since you brought it up and all.
Seriously though, sailors sleep a few feet from a few dozen people in rooms which can have more than a hundred beds. There's about a week where the infected are contagious without showing symptoms. Lots of folks don't show symptoms. By the time they noticed there first case, half the ship was probably infected. It would be irresponsible to start letting folks off without assuming they were infected or testing them first. Seriously, there's around 5000 potential probable carriers.

These aren't typical cruise ship patrons, they're mostly young and fit. Quarantine on board, where they do have a small but well stocked and prepared medical facility, considerably more prepared than any cruise ship. Start letting folks off but not before they get tested. We did have a minor epidemic in my time. Half the ship was sick before they figured out what was going on.

Edit to add. Its amusing and probably emblematic that at least some folks assumed that my attitude was let them die they signed up for it. When its pretty clear that they are mostly not at risk and anyone in need of ICU treatment would get it. Carrier sick bays are second only to the actual hospital ships in terms of their ability to treat and also, serious cases could clearly be evacuated.

Maybe I'm an ass on account of being a former Nuke and knowing that they'd evacuate the whole ship but the Nukes would still get stuck there on 3 section rotation 24/7 while the rest of the crew was off having a nice break.

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Old 7th April 2020, 01:19 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Seriously though, sailors sleep a few feet from a few dozen people in rooms which can have more than a hundred beds. There's about a week where the infected are contagious without showing symptoms. Lots of folks don't show symptoms. By the time they noticed there first case, half the ship was probably infected. It would be irresponsible to start letting folks off without assuming they were infected or testing them first. Seriously, there's around 5000 potential probable carriers.

These aren't typical cruise ship patrons, they're mostly young and fit. Quarantine on board, where they do have a small but well stocked and prepared medical facility, considerably more prepared than any cruise ship. Start letting folks off but not before they get tested. We did have a minor epidemic in my time. Half the ship was sick before they figured out what was going on.
And you, for some reason, think that your ideas here escaped the Captain? You think he doesn't know what you know? Do you think he communicated with other people, perhaps the doctors, on the ship before saying this?
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Old 7th April 2020, 01:19 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Obviously, first priority is not actual justification. There is more things that need to be factored. Obviously the captain knows that was the first priority, so what did he think the admiral above him on that very same ship was doing? That captain was under that admiral's command. Did he think that admiral did not feel it was his first priority?
Obviously not, or he would not have sent the letter.

And the letter worked, because after it was sent, and eventually disseminated, magically enough space for thousands of the TR's crew was found instantly. Funny how that played out.
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Old 7th April 2020, 01:42 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Obviously not, or he would not have sent the letter.

And the letter worked, because after it was sent, and eventually disseminated, magically enough space for thousands of the TR's crew was found instantly. Funny how that played out.
A) it isn't obvious. And I wonder if his perception was accurate or inaccurate.


B) correlation is not causation
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Old 7th April 2020, 02:21 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
A) it isn't obvious. And I wonder if his perception was accurate or inaccurate.


B) correlation is not causation
Pose a question, then render it unanswerable by dismissing the evidence; typical.
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Old 7th April 2020, 02:41 PM   #234
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Pose a question, then render it unanswerable by dismissing the evidence; typical.
The fact he sent the letter isn't evidence. It is the event trying to be explained.
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Old 7th April 2020, 02:44 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
As a former sailor I think he was dead right.
As a US citizen, I'm ashamed any person would say such a thing.
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Old 7th April 2020, 02:45 PM   #236
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Crozier did not become the Captain of a major warship because he was stupid or didn't know how things worked in the Navy. I suspect he did try and go through proper channels first but got nowhere. Somehow I think there is more to this story than we know.
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Old 7th April 2020, 02:48 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
As a US citizen, I'm ashamed any person would say such a thing.
Then I am glad I am not a US citizen.
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Old 7th April 2020, 02:54 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Crozier did not become the Captain of a major warship because he was stupid or didn't know how things worked in the Navy. I suspect he did try and go through proper channels first but got nowhere. Somehow I think there is more to this story than we know.
In that case, the rear admiral did not become a captain of a carrier strike group after commanding fighter squadrons and carrier air wings because he was stupid or didnt know how things worked in the Navy. I suspect he did try and ....etc
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Old 7th April 2020, 03:02 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
In that case, the rear admiral did not become a captain of a carrier strike group after commanding fighter squadrons and carrier air wings because he was stupid or didnt know how things worked in the Navy. I suspect he did try and ....etc
When my father was in the Navy the common consensus was you could only get as high as captain without needing to play golf with the right people. To make admiral you had to schmooze the already-admirals. Golf. Dinner parties. Thoughtful gifts. Admiral isn't a rank that commands immediate respect from everybody, and perhaps it shouldn't.
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Old 7th April 2020, 03:05 PM   #240
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
In that case, the rear admiral did not become a captain of a carrier strike group after commanding fighter squadrons and carrier air wings because he was stupid or didnt know how things worked in the Navy. I suspect he did try and ....etc
Heh....

Quote:
Navy officials acknowledged on Sunday that tensions between Captain Crozier and his immediate boss, Rear Adm. Stuart P. Baker, the commander of a multiship task force including the Roosevelt, most likely complicated the Navy’s response to the viral outbreak and prompted the captain to send a four-page letter pleading for help. Officials said the letter, sent as an unclassified email, went only to other Navy personnel, but it leaked to the news media last week.

Indeed, the Navy hinted at such tensions in a statement on Sunday that the findings of the investigation into what happened aboard the Roosevelt and the chain of command in the Pacific, including its “command climate,” would be submitted to Admiral Gilday on Monday.

According to those who have known Captain Crozier for more than three decades, the picture Mr. Modly paints of their friend and classmate is not one they recognize.
Quote:
Captain Crozier appealed to his superiors for help and Navy officials began responding, but that apparently was not enough.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/05/u...t-crozier.html
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