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Old 17th April 2020, 08:04 AM   #321
The Don
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
This is one of your most transparent attempts at starting a "let's go down the rabbit hole" side track. I ain't Alice.
Alice ? Who the **** is Alice ?

It would be interesting if the Captain were reinstated but if that was to happen, the Admirals doing the reinstating would, IMO, be risking their own positions. The Commander in Chief has repeatedly shown that he does not like to be contradicted, that he doesn't like others in the spotlight and he absolutely cannot brook anyone acting against him.
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Old 17th April 2020, 11:29 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Is there a way I can challenge the assertion that his treatment was "deplorable" that is acceptable?
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Old 17th April 2020, 11:42 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Must be pretty advantageous to declare your position exempt from challenge. That is a lot easier than defending your claim.
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Old 17th April 2020, 11:53 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Alice ? Who the **** is Alice ?

It would be interesting if the Captain were reinstated but if that was to happen, the Admirals doing the reinstating would, IMO, be risking their own positions. The Commander in Chief has repeatedly shown that he does not like to be contradicted, that he doesn't like others in the spotlight and he absolutely cannot brook anyone acting against him.
Normally, I'd agree because Trump did initially state he supported Crozier's firing "100%". However, later he backed off a bit:
Quote:
He’s the captain of a ship. He’s a very important person of a very expensive ship, a nuclear-powered ship. He shouldn’t be writing letters like that. But it happens. Sometimes I’ll write a letter that I’ll say 'I wish I didn’t send it.' Not too often, but it happens," he said.

Trump later added, "I am going to look into it, and I’m going to see maybe we can do something because I’m not looking to destroy a person’s life, who’s had an otherwise stellar career, as I understand it. I looked at his file just now because I’ve been seeing what’s going on. If we can save a person’s career — I don’t mind going after a person when they did something wrong, but this was a mistake."
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...navirus-letter


Interestingly, it appears that Modly grossly overstated how many people were included in Crozier's email:

Quote:
An email containing a now-famous memo from the captain of the USS Theodore Roosevelt aircraft carrier was sent to fewer people than the Navy said it was when officials justified firing him, The Washington Post reported Thursday.

The email from Capt. Brett Crozier was sent to three admirals and copied to seven other captains, according to a copy obtained by the Post, contradicting former acting Navy Secretary Thomas Modly’s assertion it was sent to “20 or 30” people.

Attached to the email was the letter Crozier wrote pleading for help with a coronavirus outbreak aboard the Roosevelt. The letter has now been widely reported, but the email it was attached to had not been released before the Post’s report.
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4...alleged-report


Hopefully, Crozier will be reinstated.
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Old 17th April 2020, 12:01 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Must be pretty advantageous to declare your position exempt from challenge. That is a lot easier than defending your claim.
Try reading the thread. It's been explained. On the other hand, my experience with your assertion that (on the ship) "...social distancing was not virtually impossible. It was actually easy to do," and your digging in on such a position leads me to avoid another such rabbit hole with you. There's a reason the term "being bobbed" has been coined.
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Old 17th April 2020, 12:09 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Try reading the thread. It's been explained. On the other hand, my experience with your assertion that (on the ship) "...social distancing was not virtually impossible. It was actually easy to do," and your digging in on such a position leads me to avoid another such rabbit hole with you. There's a reason the term "being bobbed" has been coined.
And others agreed with me that I was correct that social distancing was possible in that scenario....the issue was if it was worth doing, which I didn't claim.

I read the thread. And you don't defend your claim why that makes something deplorable. You are not articulating your point by saying read the thread.
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Old 17th April 2020, 01:05 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
If seems logical to me that any decisions being made concerning the ship would have been made known to Crozier ASAP as it was an emergency situation. If he'd been informed that steps were being made to address the emergency, he wouldn't have felt compelled to sent the letter.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That ^.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
If this doesn't make my position clear for you then nothing more I say will. I'm done with this part of the conversation.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And others agreed with me that I was correct that social distancing was possible in that scenario....the issue was if it was worth doing, which I didn't claim.

I read the thread. And you don't defend your claim why that makes something deplorable. You are not articulating your point by saying read the thread.
Please provide link to those you say agreed with you regarding social distancing. I looked through the thread and couldn't find any.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 17th April 2020 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 17th April 2020, 01:30 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
If this doesn't make my position clear for you then nothing more I say will. I'm done with this part of the conversation.



Please provide link to those you say agreed with you regarding social distancing. I looked through the thread and couldn't find any.
Last point first. I wrote a long response to your first point, and accidently deleted it....so a response will have to wait until I'm sufficiently motivated to write it again.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post

But it was the comments that social distancing is not possible when it is obvious to you that social distancing was possible in the video.
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It is equally obvious that it was also completely pointless in that situation, which I think was everyone else's point.
Equally obvious....to my point that social distancing was possible in the video.
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Old 17th April 2020, 01:54 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Please provide link to those you say agreed with you regarding social distancing. I looked through the thread and couldn't find any.
Did you miss where he repeatedly agreed with himself?
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Old 17th April 2020, 04:07 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Last point first. I wrote a long response to your first point, and accidently deleted it....
Maybe you should take that as an omen.

Quote:
so a response will have to wait until I'm sufficiently motivated to write it again.
Don't bother. I won't read or respond to it. What part of "I'm done with this part of the conversation," are you not getting?




Quote:
Equally obvious....to my point that social distancing was possible in the video.
Um....no:

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
They cannot engage in social distancing while serving aboard the ship. Your scrutiny of their behavior at this few-minutes-long incident is misplaced and unreasonable; what difference would it have made for everyone to ensure a six-foot distance at this event, when they would have to immediately violate this separation once the event was over in order to get back to their quarters or serve at their stations?
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Which is why if you were the first reply with this I would have agreed with you. I'm not arguing I'm reasonable and I'm not arguing it would make a difference.

But it was the comments that social distancing is not possible when it is obvious to you that social distancing was possible in the video.
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It is equally obvious that it was also completely pointless in that situation, which I think was everyone else's point.
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Old 17th April 2020, 04:43 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Maybe you should take that as an omen.



Don't bother. I won't read or respond to it. What part of "I'm done with this part of the conversation," are you not getting?






Um....no:
The part you highlighted was not my claim.
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Old 17th April 2020, 05:15 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The part you highlighted was not my claim.
I have no opinion on that.
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Old 17th April 2020, 05:33 PM   #333
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The event was on the ship. The ship on which social distancing is impossible. This is a fairly Aristotelian concept.
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Old 17th April 2020, 05:37 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The event was on the ship. The ship on which social distancing is impossible. This is a fairly Aristotelian concept.
My claim was social distancing was possible in the video.

You wrote

Quote:
It is equally obvious that it was also completely pointless in that situation
Which indicates you agree that social distancing in the video (while pointless) was possible, correct?
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Old 17th April 2020, 05:41 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
People have a lot of creative ways to wrote, "no Bob, I don't have evidence to assess if the Navy's response to the outbreak was appropriate or not."

I really don't know how to answer your question about what seems more likely. I haven't researched the relevant management studies to assess what seems more likely.

ETA: I do know from the video of sailors wishing the captain good bye for taking dramatic action to protect them from a virus are not practicing social distancing to protect themselves from that same virus.
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The part you highlighted was not my claim.
Oh, come on, Bob. The entire discussion was that social distancing at the particular event was irrelevant as the sailors could not practice it either before or after. It's like wearing a face mask at dinner with your family but not wearing it while playing games together at the same table before dinner or afterward when you're all cuddled up on the couch watching TV after dinner. Your belaboring this is just more bobbing.
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Old 17th April 2020, 05:50 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Oh, come on, Bob. The entire discussion was that social distancing at the particular event was irrelevant as the sailors could not practice it either before or after. It's like wearing a face mask at dinner with your family but not wearing it while playing games together at the same table before dinner or afterward when you're all cuddled up on the couch watching TV after dinner. Your belaboring this is just more bobbing.
I agree. I have already said a few times in earlier posts that it is irrelevant


But if we are going to discuss if people agreed with my claim, we have to get the claim right even though that claim was pedantic. We can't just turn it into a broader point. And in your analogy, my point was you could wear a facemask at dinner.
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Old 17th April 2020, 10:41 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
My claim was social distancing was possible in the video.

You wrote

Which indicates you agree that social distancing in the video (while pointless) was possible, correct?
No. It was a retort, not a Wikipedia edit.
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Old 17th April 2020, 11:45 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
No. It was a retort, not a Wikipedia edit.
In other words, BtC's claim that 'others agreed with him' turns out to be false.
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Old 18th April 2020, 05:01 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Oh, come on, Bob. The entire discussion was that social distancing at the particular event was irrelevant as the sailors could not practice it either before or after. It's like wearing a face mask at dinner with your family but not wearing it while playing games together at the same table before dinner or afterward when you're all cuddled up on the couch watching TV after dinner. Your belaboring this is just more bobbing.

Maybe if you're only having soup (and a straw), but otherwise ...
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Old 18th April 2020, 05:35 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
In other words, BtC's claim that 'others agreed with him' turns out to be false.
And then you backed into an agreement that the sailors could social distance in the video as demonstrated by your analogy. Funny how that works.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 18th April 2020 at 05:38 AM.
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Old 18th April 2020, 05:37 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
No. It was a retort, not a Wikipedia edit.
So you are saying the sailors in the video could not have practiced social distancing in the moment by not gathering for that event?

Is your position now that both are not equally obvious? In confused on that part, because both points seem obvious.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 18th April 2020 at 05:44 AM.
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Old 18th April 2020, 05:55 AM   #342
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Here was the other person who agreed they could social distance in the video.

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Again, going from working side by side to social distancing and immediately being side by side doesn't make any sense. You are just looking to distract from Trump shooting the messenger.
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Old 18th April 2020, 08:38 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And others agreed with me that I was correct that social distancing was possible in that scenario....the issue was if it was worth doing, which I didn't claim.

I read the thread. And you don't defend your claim why that makes something deplorable. You are not articulating your point by saying read the thread.

Keeping to the required 2m, how long would it have taken for the sailors to move from their enforced less than 2m accommodation to the deck?
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Old 18th April 2020, 08:53 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Keeping to the required 2m, how long would it have taken for the sailors to move from their enforced less than 2m accommodation to the deck?
Anything more than the length of the video would have been impossible. That is why tried I limiting my claim to the people in the video who formed a crowd.

ETA
Here is one definition I found...
Quote:
Social distancing: Social distancing involves avoiding large gatherings. If you have to be around people, keep 6 feet (2 meters) between you when possible.
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/c...in-a-pandemic/

If I understand that, one is social distancing when they are keeping six feet apart when possible. When not possible, they are still social distancing because they are still keeping six feet apart when possible. So, watchstanders are social distancing even when shoulder to shoulder.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 18th April 2020 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 18th April 2020, 09:17 AM   #345
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give it a ******* rest!
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Old 18th April 2020, 09:27 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
give it a ******* rest!
I did it came back up when someone misstated the position that I rested.
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Old 18th April 2020, 09:54 AM   #347
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Not just you, the whole thing.
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Old 18th April 2020, 11:54 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Not just you, the whole thing.
Agreed.

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Old 21st April 2020, 01:25 PM   #349
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This article from The Navy Times gives a scathing criticism of Trump's politicizing of the military.

Quote:
Now it appears that Modly misrepresented the dissemination of Crozier’s e mail as being significantly more careless than the distribution list implied. It was addressed to Crozier’s commanding officer, Rear Adm. Stuart Baker, U.S. Pacific Fleet commander Adm. John Aquilino, and Naval Air Forces commander Vice Adm. DeWolfe Miller, thus invalidating Modly’s claim that Crozier had bypassed his chain of command. Nevertheless, Modly relieved Crozier of his duties.
Quote:
Then, in a bizarre sequel, Modly, apparently angered by this display of loyalty and determined to stay in the good graces of the White House, flew to Guam and addressed the ship’s crew in a terms that were at best intemperate and at times insulting to their former commanding officer.
Quote:
Unfortunately, this astonishing episode was no isolated incident, but rather another disturbing manifestation of the current administration’s drive to politicize the military. The skipper’s relief and the secretary’s self-immolation were interesting grist for the news cycle, but this dismal story points at a darker problem.


As several commentators have recently observed, the norms of civil military relations have over the last three years have steadily been eroded. When norms are continuously violated without anyone making a stand to defend them, they simply cease to be norms — the exceptions accrete into a new rule. That should be of concern, not just to the US military which has always prided itself on being apolitical, but to the country as a whole, whose democratic values depend in part on a healthy relationship between the military and its civilian leadership.
Quote:
From the beginning of this administration, it became clear that this president didn’t necessarily understand or respect the terms of the implicit contract, grounded largely on Harvard scholar Samuel Huntington’s 1957 classic The Soldier and the State, that has, throughout successive administrations, helped maintain what has been mostly a well-balanced civil military relationship, based on mutual respect and trust.
Quote:
Instead this president never misses an opportunity to shape what should be morale boosting visits to the troops into campaign rallies. He even uses the traditional presidential holiday phone calls to personnel serving overseas as an opportunity to vent about his political opponents and boast about his accomplishments as president. This behavior is more than unseemly. It is dangerous to the health of the republic.
Quote:
The president has inserted himself a number of times into the handling of military justice cases, often undercutting his subordinate commanders by doing so. His granting pardons and clemency to troops accused or convicted of war crimes sent a message that such behavior is acceptable thus undermining a bedrock precept of the U.S. military’s code of professional ethics. During the investigation into war crimes allegedly committed by Navy SEAL Eddie Gallagher, the president maintained a constant running stream of acerbic commentary, and when a botched court martial ended in Gallagher being acquitted on most charges, Trump congratulated him and lambasted the prosecution team.
Quote:
To paraphrase Edmund Burke, all that it will take for this president to succeed in subverting the military will be for its leadership to say nothing.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 21st April 2020 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 21st April 2020, 01:54 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
This article from The Navy Times gives a scathing criticism of Trump's politicizing of the military.
Lamestream media. Inhuman scum.
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Old 21st April 2020, 02:00 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Lamestream media. Inhuman scum.
Fake news!
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Old 21st April 2020, 02:03 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Lamestream media. Inhuman scum.
Fake news. There has never been a Prez more beloved by and popular with the military!
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Old 21st April 2020, 02:16 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Fake news. A general told me, he came up to me and said "Sir you need to hear this: There has never been a Prez more beloved by and popular with the military!"
fifty
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Old 21st April 2020, 02:28 PM   #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs
Fake news. A general A lot of generals and admirals told me, he they came up to me and said "Sir you need to hear this: There has never been a Prez more beloved by and popular with the military!"
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
fifty
FFFY
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Old 21st April 2020, 02:30 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
FFFY
Indeed, my error.
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Old 22nd April 2020, 08:47 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
This article from The Navy Times gives a scathing criticism of Trump's politicizing of the military.
An amazingly thoughtful yet hard hitting article. Trump undermines and sickens everything he touches. What a horror that he and his Lackeys have also done it to our military.

Frankly I can’t think of anyone who has come anywhere close to Trump in damaging the core values of our country.

Last edited by Giordano; 22nd April 2020 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 22nd April 2020, 09:59 PM   #357
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
An amazingly thoughtful yet hard hitting article. Trump undermines and sickens everything he touches. What a horror that he and his Lackeys have also done it to our military.

Frankly I can’t think of anyone who has come anywhere close to Trump in damaging the core values of our country.


The military tends to be conservative but I think even many in the military have had enough of Cadet Bonespurs.
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Old 24th April 2020, 12:30 PM   #358
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Recommended for reinstatement.

Woo! That is awesome!
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Old 24th April 2020, 12:51 PM   #359
plague311
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Recommended for reinstatement.

Woo! That is awesome!
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Old 24th April 2020, 01:02 PM   #360
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Navy Leaders Recommend Reinstating Roosevelt Captain Fired Over Virus Warning
Capt. Brett E. Crozier, who was removed from command after sending a letter pleading for help to fight the coronavirus on his aircraft carrier, was largely cleared after Navy review.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/u...t-crozier.html
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