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Old 19th April 2020, 01:56 AM   #361
Giordano
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
If I may ask:

How did the CDC director's unorthodox ideas delay the CDC's response to coronavirus testing?

How did Trump's proposed budget cuts delay the CDC's response to coronavirus testing?
Gee, I donít know... Do you think that maybe someone who handled a prior epidemic, AIDS, incompetently (driven not by science but ideology) would be the wrong person to place in charge of the CDC? Which under his watch indeed has handled the current epidemic, covid-19, incompetently?

Taking another wild guess, do you think that the Presidentís repeated attempts at implementing big budget cuts for the CDC might be an indication of how little he understands and values their work? Which now manifests as his failure to support their work, to prioritize appropriately the number and standardization of these tests at the federal level, and to understand that his ďopeningĒ of the USA requires having appropriate testing in place first?
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Old 19th April 2020, 02:07 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Gee, I donít know... Do you think that maybe someone who handled a prior epidemic, AIDS, incompetently (driven not by science but ideology) would be the wrong person to place in charge of the CDC? Which under his watch indeed has handled the current epidemic, covid-19, incompetently?

Taking another wild guess, do you think that the Presidentís repeated attempts at implementing big budget cuts for the CDC might be an indication of how little he understands and values their work? Which now manifests as his failure to support their work, to prioritize appropriately the number and standardization of these tests at the federal level, and to understand that his ďopeningĒ of the USA requires having appropriate testing in place first?
That and he is an narcissistic buffoon makes me also think he wasnít an ideal leader in a major crisis.
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Old 19th April 2020, 02:25 AM   #363
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Trump somehow induces 180 degree turns in conservatives from their life-long prior beliefs. Conservatives used to believe in assigning responsibility appropriately. But now appointing incompetent people in charge of an important agency, repeatedly attempting to undermine its work, and actually seeing that agency deteriorate in its function without doing anything, is none of Trump’s responsibility. None at all.

How was he even to know this was a problem? Other than what is obvious to any intelligent person? Well, what if he had perhaps made less of an effort to ignore the concerns and recommendations expressed by experts trying to get his attention during this whole process?

“Submarine commander places questinable officer in charge of navigation for ideological reasons despite recommendations of expert navigators and repeatedly expresses distain for the value of navigation. Submarine begins to miss intended destinations by tens of miles. Submarine hits reef and 10 sailors die.” And yet we are asked how is this the responsibility of the commander?!?

Last edited by Giordano; 19th April 2020 at 02:26 AM.
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Old 19th April 2020, 02:27 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The flaw in this argument seems to be -- in all these arguments -- my county is on shutdown and the numbers are fairly low. Therefore we should relax the shutdown. If you think about it, that really doesn't make too much sense.
It's like saying, "Meh, this parachute has slowed my fall enough, I'll go ahead and release it early."
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Old 19th April 2020, 02:44 AM   #365
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OC beaches have been mostly deserted under California State rules, and business closures/social distancing have been enforced as in the rest of the State. Orange County covid-19 cases and deaths are currently somewhat higher than those in San Francisco and many other counties.

What is the anomaly we are supposed to explain? How do these facts indicate the restrictions are unnecessary in this “special” county?

BTW: Temperatures in Orange County have largely been on the cool side this February to April until this last week: 50s F most nights and in the 60s F max during the days.

Last edited by Giordano; 19th April 2020 at 02:48 AM.
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Old 19th April 2020, 03:36 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Who in the CDC and FDA was this information passed to and when did they inform someone in the Trump administration who was in a position to pass it on to someone who could do something about it?
I presume this information was being passed up through the normal channels. Why would you assume not? But Trump was independently told by his medical advisors how crucial these tests were, and he must have been aware of repeated complaints by doctors all the way up to his medical advisors that the number of tests available were still woefully low.

All these problems were also prominently covered by multiple news sources and Trump even was repeatedly asked about these concerns at news conferences (which he angrily denied were problems). Trump was somehow determined to ignore and deny all this. To the point he stated glibly that tests were available to anyone who wanted them when surrounded by people such as Dr. Fauci who knew better and had told him the truth. That is willful ignorance.

All this was done in public. And covered in the news. Perhaps you have forgotten.

Last edited by Giordano; 19th April 2020 at 03:44 AM.
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Old 19th April 2020, 04:01 AM   #367
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Here's the science on how effective UV is or is not at rendering viruses inert
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Old 19th April 2020, 04:36 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post

This topic briefly came up in one of the other threads. Good for disinfecting water, not so good for people.

Ultraviolet germicidal irradiation

Quote:
For human beings, skin exposure to germicidal wavelengths of UV light can produce rapid sunburn and skin cancer. Exposure of the eyes to this UV radiation can produce extremely painful inflammation of the cornea and temporary or permanent vision impairment, up to and including blindness in some cases. UV can damage the retina of the eye.
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Old 19th April 2020, 05:01 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
This topic briefly came up in one of the other threads. Good for disinfecting water, not so good for people.

Ultraviolet germicidal irradiation
That's specifically talking about UVC. The article I posted also goes in to what is or is not known about UV A & B.
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Old 19th April 2020, 05:59 AM   #370
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Texas will open up Monday?

Unbelievable.
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Old 19th April 2020, 06:07 AM   #371
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Cult leader and Trump supporters really believe in the infallibility of their Chosen One, that the Leader has ultimate Power, but that he be always absolved of responsibility. It's *always* an underling who who is lax, or incompetent, or a wrecker.

The buck *never* stops at the top.
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Old 19th April 2020, 06:31 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Not to drag this thread off topic, but I can't help myself and I need to prove a point: there were hundreds of thousands of reports all over the news saying Trump colluded with Russia to win the election Ė they were all wrong. A popular lie is still a lie.
1) That many? Huh.

2) Word games.
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Old 19th April 2020, 06:39 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I think Gov. Cuomo's daily briefings have been pretty interesting and straightforward, but I can't get past the impression that he makes the words "...tests..." and "...masks..." (always with a pause on either side) sound like epithets.
That's because he knows where the gaps in the Trump's armor are.
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Old 19th April 2020, 06:42 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Being President is a tough job. Not many of us could do it well. Donald Trump is one of those people who doesn't have what it takes.
As has been said before, Trump wanted to ďbe presidentĒ; he didnít want the job.
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Old 19th April 2020, 06:43 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
I won't dismiss the source but I will ask you to quote and highlight where it says Trump banned coronavirus tests from other countries.


Not to drag this thread off topic, but I can't help myself and I need to prove a point: there were hundreds of thousands of reports all over the news saying Trump colluded with Russia to win the election Ė they were all wrong. A popular lie is still a lie.
This is not correct Trump colluded with Russia. Read the Mueller Report. It says no such thing. The lie is that Trump didn't collude with Russia

Tell me though, how many N-95 masks did the stupid bitch in chief order in February? How many ventilators? Why the dumb **** wait until nearly all the airlines stopped flying in and out of China to initiate his ban?
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Old 19th April 2020, 06:45 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Texas will open up Monday?

Unbelievable.
I hope the American voters stay in and the Trumptrash go out. Biden is inside the margin of error in Texas.
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Old 19th April 2020, 07:14 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Texas will open up Monday? Unbelievable.
It is unbelievable. I looked online for a chart, a simple line graph showing new cases/total hospitalized for Texas but I couldn't find anything like that. That's troubling. In the Northeast various news sources publish those everyday. You can easily see how the virus is trending. I did find this news article on the KXAN website in Austin, which is the local NBC affiliate.
Quote:
AUSTIN (KXAN) — At least 14 people have died so far this week in Central Texas, doubling the region’s death toll in just six days. It’s been by far the deadliest week since the first case was reported in Travis County back on March 13. The grim news comes even as protestors clamor for cities and counties to end their stay-at-home orders. Many gathered Saturday morning at the Governor’s Mansion.

March 13-March 14 -4 new cases
March 15-March 21 - 76 new cases
March 22-March 28 - 162 new cases
March 29-April 4 - 376 new cases
April 5-April 11 - 392 new cases
April 12-April 18 - 425 new cases so far Link
The numbers indicate very clearly the virus is not yet contained in Texas. As health officials warn, there are a significant number of asymptomatic people out there that are unaware they are infected and are highly contagious. But our president has worked to politicize the response to the pandemic and I guess -- for political reasons I'd bet -- Governor Abbott in Texas feels he has to downplay the pandemic and be seen as pro-business as usual.

Truly unbelievable. Deadliest week so far in Central Texas and the governor responds by loosening the shutdown. What can you say?

Last edited by newyorkguy; 19th April 2020 at 07:30 AM. Reason: Two 'ts' in Abbott.
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Old 19th April 2020, 07:18 AM   #378
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While I really don't want people in Texas to suffer, if TX lifts restrictions, we'll see what happens to the numbers of cases.
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Old 19th April 2020, 07:29 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
It's like saying, "Meh, this parachute has slowed my fall enough, I'll go ahead and release it early."
The shutdown seems to be working so let's end it. This reminds me of stories you read about people with mental or emotional illnesses that are prescribed drugs which work well in controlling their illness. Patients decide 'I'm okay now,' stop taking the drugs and then become ill again. As with those medications, doctors warn, the drugs are not a CURE. They help control the illness. The shutdown is not a CURE for Covid-19, it is only helping to control it. Some people won't let themselves see that. If you end the shutdowns -- which I don't like either (who does?) -- you take away the control. Guess what happens next?

At least people who are emotionally or mentally ill -- like Donald Trump -- have an excuse for their behavior.
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Old 19th April 2020, 07:31 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
It is unbelievable. I looked online for a chart, a simple line graph showing new cases/total hospitalized for Texas but I couldn't find anything like that. That's troubling. In the Northeast various news sources publish those everyday. You can easily see how the virus is trending. I did find this news article on the KXAN website in Austin, which is the local NBC affiliate.


The numbers indicate very clearly the virus is not yet contained in Texas. As health officials warn, there are a significant number of asymptomatic people out there that are unaware they are infected and are highly contagious. But our president has worked to politicize the response to the pandemic and I guess -- for political reasons I'd bet -- Governor Abbot in Texas feels he has to downplay the pandemic and be seen as pro-business as usual.

Truly unbelievable. Deadliest week so far in Central Texas and the governor responds by loosening the shutdown. What can you say?
Well, at least we'll have some experimental data on the effectiveness of mandatory social distancing soon.
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Old 19th April 2020, 07:40 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
It is unbelievable. I looked online for a chart, a simple line graph showing new cases/total hospitalized for Texas but I couldn't find anything like that. That's troubling.
You can find death rates here.

Deaths are a better indication than cases, really, because the number of cases is more heavily dependent on the amount of testing.
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Old 19th April 2020, 07:52 AM   #382
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Another guide the Trump administration's catastrophic failures.
Quote:
Thousands continue to die each day in the United States from COVID-19, and there's no sign yet that the virus will fully retreat anytime soon. But new analysis from two epidemiologists published in the New York Times on Thursday showed that it didn't have to be this way. Had the country acted sooner, it could have dramatically decreased the death toll.
https://www.salon.com/2020/04/19/sho...risis_partner/

Quote:
On March 16, the White House issued initial social distancing guidelines, including closing schools and avoiding groups of more than 10. But an estimated 90 percent of the cumulative deaths in the United States from Covid-19, at least from the first wave of the epidemic, might have been prevented by putting social distancing policies into effect two weeks earlier, on March 2, when there were only 11 deaths in the entire country. The effect would have been substantial had the policies been imposed even one week earlier, on March 9, resulting in approximately a 60 percent reduction in deaths.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/o...istancing.html
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Old 19th April 2020, 07:56 AM   #383
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Thanks for the link. Looking at cases, and I understand the testing issue, Texas' numbers are beginning to level off. But they're still high.

What I don't get is, this idea, 'The shutdown has been pretty effective in controlling this, so why continue it?' I don't get it except, you see that kind of logic all the time.
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File Type: jpg Texas Coronavirus case count 04182020.jpg (19.1 KB, 10 views)
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Old 19th April 2020, 08:05 AM   #384
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More on how we got here:
Quote:
That the pandemic occurred is not Trumpís fault. The utter unpreparedness of the United States for a pandemic is Trumpís fault. The loss of stockpiled respirators to breakage because the federal government let maintenance contracts lapse in 2018 is Trumpís fault. The failure to store sufficient protective medical gear in the national arsenal is Trumpís fault. That states are bidding against other states for equipment, paying many multiples of the precrisis price for ventilators, is Trumpís fault. Air travelers summoned home and forced to stand for hours in dense airport crowds alongside infected people? That was Trumpís fault too. Ten weeks of insisting that the coronavirus is a harmless flu that would miraculously go away on its own? Trumpís fault again. The refusal of red-state governors to act promptly, the failure to close Florida and Gulf Coast beaches until late March? That fault is more widely shared, but again, responsibility rests with Trump: He could have stopped it, and he did not.

The lying about the coronavirus by hosts on Fox News and conservative talk radio is Trumpís fault: They did it to protect him. The false hope of instant cures and nonexistent vaccines is Trumpís fault, because he told those lies to cover up his failure to act in time. The severity of the economic crisis is Trumpís fault; things would have been less bad if he had acted faster instead of sending out his chief economic adviser and his son Eric to assure Americans that the first stock-market dips were buying opportunities. The firing of a Navy captain for speaking truthfully about the virusís threat to his crew? Trumpís fault. The fact that so many key government jobs were either empty or filled by mediocrities? Trumpís fault. The insertion of Trumpís arrogant and incompetent son-in-law as commander in chief of the national medical supply chain? Trumpís fault.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ilures/609532/
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Old 19th April 2020, 08:05 AM   #385
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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/17/u...gtype=Homepage
NYT articles on corona virus are open access.

Thank goodness this is getting out. From the link, scroll down:
Quote:
Prominent conservatives and donors are behind some statehouse protests.

The protests in Michigan, Ohio and elsewhere calling for easing the restrictions were reminiscent of the early days of the Tea Party movement, when angry activists stormed town hall meetings of Democratic members of Congress to protest President Barack Obama’s health care overhaul. Both featured impassioned demonstrators on the ground — and the behind-the-scenes involvement of prominent conservatives and donors.
And Russia was behind some of these organized protests. Now Trump supporters know how to do it themselves.

Quote:
The chairman of one of the groups behind Michigan’s protest on Thursday, the Michigan Freedom Fund, is Greg McNeilly, a close longtime associate of the education secretary, Betsy DeVos. Mr. McNeilly has denied any involvement by Ms. DeVos or others in her family, which has long financed conservative causes in Michigan.

Others organizing protests have been open about the involvement of outside donors. ...
Read the article to see more specifics of Trump people involved.
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Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 19th April 2020 at 08:07 AM.
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Old 19th April 2020, 08:20 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Here you are:
Try again. You said Trump banned use of tests from other countries. That is not what you have highlighted says.
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Old 19th April 2020, 08:25 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Which unorthodox idea of Redfield's allowed lab technicians to break protocol and contaminate the tests?
The CDC screwed up.

The guy in charge of the CDC was appointed by Trump.
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Old 19th April 2020, 08:27 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Try again. You said Trump banned use of tests from other countries. That is not what you have highlighted says.
No, I don't think so. You'll just nitpick some other ******** to keep you imaginary world in order.
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Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 19th April 2020, 08:39 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Gee, I donít know...
Exactly, you don't know.

The employees who contaminated the test kits broke CDC protocol. If Redfield had changed CDC anti-contamination protocol, or allowed it to change under his supervision, then you could point your finger at him for fault, with reason.
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Old 19th April 2020, 08:42 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Exactly, you don't know.

The employees who contaminated the test kits broke CDC protocol. If Redfield had changed CDC anti-contamination protocol, or allowed it to change under his supervision, then you could point your finger at him for fault, with reason.
Redfield is in charge of the CDC.

Everything that happens at the CDC is ultimately his responsibility.

Thatís what it means to be in charge.
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Old 19th April 2020, 08:49 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
The CDC screwed up.

The guy in charge of the CDC was appointed by Trump.
Oh, I see now. Let me try.


The ATF and DOJ screwed up.

Eric Holder was appointed by Obama.

Obama is guilty for Brian Terry's murder.
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Old 19th April 2020, 08:52 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No, I don't think so. You'll just nitpick some other ******** to keep you imaginary world in order.

"Imaginary", says the person who claims Trump banned the use of tests from other countries.
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Old 19th April 2020, 08:58 AM   #393
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It's very simple to understand. This is from a non-U.S. news source, The Guardian, headlined, "The Missing Six Weeks."
Quote:
In the two months since that fateful day [Jan. 25, 2020], the responses to coronavirus displayed by the US and South Korea have been polar opposites....The US response tells a different story. Two days after the first diagnosis in Washington state, Donald Trump went on air on CNBC and bragged: ďWe have it totally under control. Itís one person coming from China. Itís going to be just fine.Ē...A week after that, the Wall Street Journal published an opinion article by two former top health policy officials within the Trump administration under the headline "Act Now to Prevent an American Epidemic."

It was not until 29 February, more than a month after the Journal article and almost six weeks after the first case of coronavirus was confirmed in the country that the Trump administration put that advice into practice. Laboratories and hospitals would finally be allowed to conduct their own Covid-19 tests to speed up the process. Those missing four to six weeks are likely to go down in the definitive history as a cautionary tale of the potentially devastating consequences of failed political leadership. Link
The person currently arguing is employing the same tactic they always employ. As with the Russian investigation, an issue they even raised. Unless you can produce a smoking Howizter -- forget about a gun, it's got to be artillery-sized -- they are going to 'claim' they just don't get it.
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Old 19th April 2020, 09:08 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Oh, I see now. Let me try.


The ATF and DOJ screwed up.

Eric Holder was appointed by Obama.

Obama is guilty for Brian Terry's murder.
Iím all for using that logic.

So thatís 1 for Obama.

35,443 and climbing for Trump.
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Old 19th April 2020, 09:25 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Who in the CDC and FDA was this information passed to and when did they inform someone in the Trump administration who was in a position to pass it on to someone who could do something about it?
This sounds like you are floating a conspiracy theory. Do you have evidence the CDC his this information from it's director or that he failed to pass this along to the Trump administration? This seams really unlikely given the circumstances.


It wouldn't matter anyway, TBH, as this would be just another example of Trump and the people he appointed being too incompetent to run the organizations they were in charge of. A competent president would have been demanding regular updates.
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Old 19th April 2020, 09:29 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
"Imaginary", says the person who claims Trump banned the use of tests from other countries.
This is a typical way to debate dishonestly: nitpick on something and dismiss the whole point.

Technically, yes Trump banned the use of the tests. By ordering or stopping the FDA from approving private and outside tests, no one in healthcare could use them. In this country FDA approval for medical tests is required.

He also made sure private companies' tests were not FDA approved for use until the complaining about test shortages became too public for his liking.

Food and Drug Administration regulations ďcreated barriers to the private industry creating a test quicklyĒ for the coronavirus.

They could have overridden their usual processes sooner like they eventually did.
Quote:
One doctor in a Seattle lab described the process for getting an Emergency Use Authorization from the FDA and said the agency asked for a level of testing that didnít make sense in the context of an emergency, according to a GQ profile.

A doctor in North Carolina told NBC News that she had developed a test using the World Health Organizationís protocol but had yet to receive the use authorization from the FDA, putting the state "way behind" in its ability to test patients.

On Feb. 29, the FDA announced a change in the process: Labs would still need to seek the agencyís approval for their tests, but the labs could begin testing while waiting for the official green light.

On March 16, (three days after Crenshaw made his claim) the FDA announced another change to its policies and put state officials in charge of coronavirus tests developed by laboratories in their states, meaning labs would engage with state officials and not the FDA. It also removes the requirement for these labs to apply for an Emergency Use Authorization for their tests.

The changes also expand which labs and manufacturers are included in FDA guidelines and which kinds of tests can be developed.
So who ordered that change? And why wasn't the emergency provision used sooner?

The article says the WHO test wasn't offered. Well neither was it asked for when it could have been. That would have taken an action by Trump.

Who appointed the Commissioner of the FDA? Trump did, installing a new head of the agency in Dec 2019.

It would be very foolish to think these idiots installed by Trump aren't also doing his bidding.
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Old 19th April 2020, 09:31 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
It's very simple to understand. This is from a non-U.S. news source, The Guardian, headlined, "The Missing Six Weeks."


The person currently arguing is employing the same tactic they always employ. As with the Russian investigation, an issue they even raised. Unless you can produce a smoking Howizter -- forget about a gun, it's got to be artillery-sized -- they are going to 'claim' they just don't get it.
Yep.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 19th April 2020, 09:31 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Oh, I see now. Let me try.


The ATF and DOJ screwed up.

Eric Holder was appointed by Obama.

Obama is guilty for Brian Terry's murder.
Great analogy. Perfect. I have no response. You win.
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Old 19th April 2020, 09:36 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Trump somehow induces 180 degree turns in conservatives from their life-long prior beliefs.
It's not Trump. Conservative have simply become accustomed to being told what to think and believe. The will believe whatever the Right Wing Media and Blastosphere tells them to believe no matter how absurd or contradictory it is. Trump is just the latest example of how goofy the nut-bar right has become.
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Old 19th April 2020, 10:01 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
This is not correct Trump colluded with Russia. Read the Mueller Report. It says no such thing. The lie is that Trump didn't collude with Russia
Technically it says Trumps election campaign colluded with Russia and that Trump obstructed just 12 different times to prevent the law enforcement investigating whether he was directly involved in this collusion. If he went to that length, it's reasonable to assume he was obstructing the investigation because he was directly involved.

The only way he could be completely innocent of the of collusion with Russia is if he was too incompetent to be in charge of an election campaign in the first place. He probably isn't TBH, but that doesn't explain why he put so much effort to hide any evidence that could prove direct involvement.

It also wouldn't explain why he's so subservient to Russia. He basically give Putin anything Putin wants, just wants. Just look at the latest example where he's using US tax dollars to broker an agreement between Russia and Saudi Arabia to drive up the drive up oil prices and ultimately the drive up the price US consumers pay for gas.
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