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Old 16th April 2020, 03:20 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Speaking of the WWE, Trump has appointed Vince McMahon to an advisory group dedicated to re-starting the economy

In the mean time, Vince's response to the pandemic has been to fire a bunch of employees.
Great ratings. Not as good as The Apprentice.
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Old 16th April 2020, 04:03 AM   #162
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pfffft...... I'm waiting for Corona 37

I mean this isn't Corona 1 people.

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Old 16th April 2020, 04:20 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Speaking of the WWE, Trump has appointed Vince McMahon to an advisory group dedicated to re-starting the economy

In the mean time, Vince's response to the pandemic has been to fire a bunch of employees.
Who's writing this ******? Least funny mockumentary I've ever seen.
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Old 16th April 2020, 04:27 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
A bit of a loose fit for this thread, but probably better here than anywhere else: 60,000 protest Michigan stay-at-home order with a rally. Many were armed, and all were ignoring social distancing.
The 60,000 number seems very large and doesn't seem consistent with the published story:

Quote:
Hundreds of people, some openly carrying rifles and handguns, have been protesting against restrictions aimed at stopping the spread of coronavirus in the US state of Michigan.
...unless the 60,000 figure includes anyone who expressed an opinion online or something.
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Old 16th April 2020, 05:04 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Surely simpler to just say 'He's Jesus, therefore he didn't inherit 'cos he's special - he is the Messiah after all.' Religion is nuts...
But that would leave Mary being less special. Catholicism has a thing about Mary. She's got to be perfect, or else she's not good. Paging Father Freud, needed urgently in the theology department!
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Old 16th April 2020, 05:14 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The 60,000 number seems very large and doesn't seem consistent with the published story:



...unless the 60,000 figure includes anyone who expressed an opinion online or something.
They seem like Trump supporters. Hopefully they'll be the only ones to get the virus and die. Michigan is a swing state after all. The danger of course here is that the Trumptrash from the rally could spread it to Americans. Scientist strongly suspect the virus is capable of zoonotic transmission.
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Old 16th April 2020, 05:17 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The 60,000 number seems very large and doesn't seem consistent with the published story:



...unless the 60,000 figure includes anyone who expressed an opinion online or something.
The first sentence of the article:
"Hundreds of people, some openly carrying rifles and handguns, have been protesting against restrictions aimed at stopping the spread of coronavirus in the US state of Michigan."
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Old 16th April 2020, 05:27 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
When many people hear the term "Immaculate Conception," they think it refers to the conception of Jesus. It doesn't—it refers to the conception of his mother Mary. Christian theology states every person is born with what's referred to as "original sin," which could be problematic for a young woman who is supposed to be carrying the Son of God. So Roman Catholic (and others? don't know) theology states that Mary herself was immaculately conceived, and thus did not carry the burden of original sin, and therefore was a pure vessel for the Son of God.

ETA: Ninja'd by two others!
Minor nitpick, but it seems to be the thread for it
It's a Catholic doctrine. Most Protestant versions of Christianity deny the concept of Original Sin, based on the various verses where Jesus says something like "be like the little kids, believing any nonsense your parents say without question to enter the kingdom of Heaven" (note: some editorial comments removed).
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Old 16th April 2020, 05:45 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The 60,000 number seems very large and doesn't seem consistent with the published story:



...unless the 60,000 figure includes anyone who expressed an opinion online or something.
It's not completely clear. I thought perhaps that the hundreds referred to the people who actually marched on the capital and the 60,000 was people all over the state who staged the "gridlock" protest. This source suggests that 3-4,000 engaged in the gridlock protest in the capital, and 150 got out of their cars and marched. This source suggests that the 60,000 figure may have come from the number of additional people who signed an online petition.
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Old 16th April 2020, 05:55 AM   #170
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There were enough people to block access to a hospital and get in the way of ambulance during a global pandemic.

So that's too many.
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Old 16th April 2020, 06:00 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
The first sentence of the article:
"Hundreds of people, some openly carrying rifles and handguns, have been protesting against restrictions aimed at stopping the spread of coronavirus in the US state of Michigan."
I know, I quoted it in my post which is why I though the 60,000 seemed high
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Old 16th April 2020, 06:01 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There were enough people to block access to a hospital and get in the way of ambulance during a global pandemic.

So that's too many.
A bunch of you ain't the boss of me whiners is just what the doctor ordered.
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Old 16th April 2020, 06:03 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
A bunch of you ain't the boss of me whiners is just what the doctor ordered.
Yeah things got worse when the "It's not da guberment's job to ban sharp sticks!" crowd started poking themselves in the eye with sharp sticks just to teach the government a lesson.
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Old 16th April 2020, 06:05 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It's not completely clear. I thought perhaps that the hundreds referred to the people who actually marched on the capital and the 60,000 was people all over the state who staged the "gridlock" protest. This source suggests that 3-4,000 engaged in the gridlock protest in the capital, and 150 got out of their cars and marched. This source suggests that the 60,000 figure may have come from the number of additional people who signed an online petition.
One opinion I read suggested the majority of the protesters were cowards for protesting without leaving their cars: they want other people to stop isolating and return to normal life despite the disease, but aren't willing to risk leaving their cars and exposing themselves. I think I agree with this assessment. Let those who want to "open the economy" gather together, without face masks, and see how well the gods favor their proposal.
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Old 16th April 2020, 06:06 AM   #175
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I've praised Gretchen Whitmer's response to Covid-19. She jumped on it quickly and did everything she could. However, her most recent stay at home order really did go too far. It literally made it illegal to visit your family, not to mention friends and lovers, unless you had a good excuse. That goes too far.

I wouldn't go to a protest, for fear of catching the disease, but an order like that really does need to be rolled back.
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Old 16th April 2020, 06:08 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
One opinion I read suggested the majority of the protesters were cowards for protesting without leaving their cars: they want other people to stop isolating and return to normal life despite the disease, but aren't willing to risk leaving their cars and exposing themselves. I think I agree with this assessment. Let those who want to "open the economy" gather together, without face masks, and see how well the gods favor their proposal.
The reason for staying in their cars is that it was illegal for them to get out of their cars. Of course, some of them did anyway, but protests are like that. Part of a good protest involves braking a few laws and daring the police to arrest you.
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Old 16th April 2020, 06:08 AM   #177
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Now stepping back a little further.

For a while now my go-to retort to every reason given why Trump is sure to lose in 2020 was "No. You ain't beating an incumbent President with record low unemployment in Ohio. No I don't care that it's a house of cards smoke and mirror act of stagnant wages, underemployment, and a billion other valid factors, he has a number he can point out that voters love."

Well... that's changed obviously. That's why he's so gung-ho to "restart the economy" (either literally or in narrative.) The economy has always been his strongest Trump Card, no pun.

Again standard caveat the rules and trends apply to Trump only some of the time so... no nothing is certain but I don't think Trump wants to roll into the meat of the campaign cycle with a bunch of really bad unemployment numbers in the news.
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Old 16th April 2020, 06:14 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The reason for staying in their cars is that it was illegal for them to get out of their cars. Of course, some of them did anyway, but protests are like that. Part of a good protest involves braking a few laws and daring the police to arrest you.
Wasn't the entire protest breaking the law by defying the stay-at-home order in the state? So they're willing to break one law, but not another. And it just works out that the one they're willing to break inconveniences others, while the one they're not willing to break protects themselves alone. Hmmm. What noble protesters they are, just like MLK and the civil rights era.
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Old 16th April 2020, 06:45 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I've praised Gretchen Whitmer's response to Covid-19. She jumped on it quickly and did everything she could. However, her most recent stay at home order really did go too far. It literally made it illegal to visit your family, not to mention friends and lovers, unless you had a good excuse. That goes too far.
I don't think it's illegal. It's a civil fine.

But it's not too far. Michigan currently has 193 deaths per million population. If Michigan were a country that would make it the 8th highest per capita death rate in the world, joint with the Netherlands. It's 5th highest in the States.

The UK has had the same rules for 3 weeks now, and the UK is generally recognised as being an absolute ******** at the moment, with a government that hasn't done enough quickly enough. Yet the UK's per capita death rate is below Michigan's, although admittedly not by much (190 per million).

Seriously, you should be questioning whether she's done enough.
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Old 16th April 2020, 06:47 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Wasn't the entire protest breaking the law by defying the stay-at-home order in the state? So they're willing to break one law, but not another. And it just works out that the one they're willing to break inconveniences others, while the one they're not willing to break protects themselves alone. Hmmm. What noble protesters they are, just like MLK and the civil rights era.
Probably merely travelling to the protest was illegal, but it's a lot harder to be arrested in a car.

In some of the calls for protest, the organizers said to stay in your car so that you couldn't be accused of violating the social distancing guidelines. Actually, as far as compliance to the law is concerned, that wouldn't matter. Leaving the house was illegal, except for certain defined purposes, one of which was not "engaging in protest".

But, think about that for a minute. It's literally illegal to leave your house, according to an executive decree. it wasn't even a law. It was a pronouncement by the governor. The legislature didn't pass it.

In practice, the cops aren't running around arresting people for visiting their moms, and I see groups of teenagers in our neighborhoods sitting on lawns, six feet apart, so I don't feel like we are living under a dictatorship. However, the decree went too far. You shouldn't have to hope that the cops will exercise discretion and not arrest you for visiting a friend, lover, or relative. If it's really, really, important, then you ought to be able to get the legislature to agree. That's too much power to be in the hands of a single person.
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Old 16th April 2020, 06:50 AM   #181
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Yes. George Orwell was totally talking about a government not letting you go to Auntie Mildred's house and infect her with the Andromeda Strain because of "But Mah Rights!" when he was writing 1984.

Again there's a difference between libertarianism and "Just who the hell do you think you are to dare tell me what to do"-ism. Nobody is winning when you poke yourself in the eye with a sharp stick to get back at the government for their restrictions on sharp sticks being broader then you like.
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Old 16th April 2020, 06:51 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Now stepping back a little further.

For a while now my go-to retort to every reason given why Trump is sure to lose in 2020 was "No. You ain't beating an incumbent President with record low unemployment in Ohio. No I don't care that it's a house of cards smoke and mirror act of stagnant wages, underemployment, and a billion other valid factors, he has a number he can point out that voters love."

Well... that's changed obviously. That's why he's so gung-ho to "restart the economy" (either literally or in narrative.) The economy has always been his strongest Trump Card, no pun.

Again standard caveat the rules and trends apply to Trump only some of the time so... no nothing is certain but I don't think Trump wants to roll into the meat of the campaign cycle with a bunch of really bad unemployment numbers in the news.
He has a perfect set of scapegoats for the economic downturn:
  • Coronavirus
  • The Democrats
  • The WHO
  • China
  • Democratic governors

FOXNews and talk radio will be a foghorn to blame the economic downturn on those scapegoats.

It's also likely that the recovery will be nearly as sharp as the downturn and even though 25 million may have been put out of work, a significant proportion of those may quickly be back in work. Donald Trump will likely be able to boast of some of the best job numbers of all time - and he'll simply ignore the fact that's because he had some of the worst job numbers of all time. Kinda like him boasting about recent DJIA gains and completely ignoring the losses.
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Old 16th April 2020, 06:52 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Probably merely travelling to the protest was illegal, but it's a lot harder to be arrested in a car.

In some of the calls for protest, the organizers said to stay in your car so that you couldn't be accused of violating the social distancing guidelines. Actually, as far as compliance to the law is concerned, that wouldn't matter. Leaving the house was illegal, except for certain defined purposes, one of which was not "engaging in protest".

But, think about that for a minute. It's literally illegal to leave your house, according to an executive decree. it wasn't even a law. It was a pronouncement by the governor. The legislature didn't pass it.

In practice, the cops aren't running around arresting people for visiting their moms, and I see groups of teenagers in our neighborhoods sitting on lawns, six feet apart, so I don't feel like we are living under a dictatorship. However, the decree went too far. You shouldn't have to hope that the cops will exercise discretion and not arrest you for visiting a friend, lover, or relative. If it's really, really, important, then you ought to be able to get the legislature to agree. That's too much power to be in the hands of a single person.
An interesting splatter of words you emitted there, to attempt to weasel out of acknowledging the hypocrisy of these protestors whose cause you apparently briefed yourself to defend. I urge you to put your principles into action and go forth! live your freedom! Because if you are isolating at home in obedience to these dreadful dictators who don't want you to kill Grandma by visiting her with the plague then you would be a hypocrite.
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Old 16th April 2020, 06:54 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes. George Orwell was totally talking about a government not letting you go to Auntie Mildred's house and infect her with the Andromeda Strain because of "But Mah Rights!" when he was writing 1984.

Again there's a difference between libertarianism and "Just who are you to tell me what to do"-ism. Nobody is winning when you poke yourself in the eye with a sharp stick to get back at the government for their restrictions on sharp sticks being broader then you like.
Reminds me of the people who defy evacuation orders during hurricanes. They invariably scream for help when they come to grief.
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Old 16th April 2020, 06:55 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Seriously, you should be questioning whether she's done enough.
What more could she do? Carry out food is still legal. I suppose she could ban that. There's not much left that's legal.

Like I said, I praised her for the actions that she did take, initially, but in my opinion this goes too far, and even if you think it's a good idea to take these measures, it ought to be the case that the legislature should have to sign off on it. Having that sort of power invested in the executive branch is too much.
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Old 16th April 2020, 06:57 AM   #186
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Wow it's almost as if people want the government to fail no matter what they do to maintain a "Government can't do anything and we deserve to be punished for depending on them" narrative going.
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Old 16th April 2020, 07:12 AM   #187
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It seems discussion of the doctrine of separation of powers is a bit too abstract for some people in these times.
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Old 16th April 2020, 07:15 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It seems discussion of the doctrine of separation of powers is a bit too abstract for some people in these times.
Your house is burning down and you want to have a talk about the environmental damage done by mining the radium they need to make smoke detectors and increased CO2 emissions from the fire extinguisher. When your house isn't burning down you want to talk about your God Given Right(TM) to juggle balls of oily rags by the fireplace. When your neighbor's house is burning down you're a libertarian, when your house is burning down you're a socialist.

It's not abstraction, it's argumentative levels of convenience and becoming a favored tactic by too many people to get their way.

If the real world isn't going the way you want, argue broad philosophical arguments. If the real world is going the way you want, argue real world.
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Old 16th April 2020, 07:33 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
I should think, we'd expect *something*. There wasn't even one more treated vs untreated person who had a better outcome. The drug hasn't helped at all.
That's why I said "at best."

All the advocates are acting like this is going to be a game changer. As I noted, even with something that works (Tamiflu) the flu still kills thousands a year.

What we need is a vaccine to stop people from getting it in the first place. Even then, it may not be perfect (again see the flu) but we need that exposure.
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Old 16th April 2020, 08:15 AM   #190
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Your house is burning down and you want to have a talk about the environmental damage done by mining the radium they need to make smoke detectors and increased CO2 emissions from the fire extinguisher. When your house isn't burning down you want to talk about your God Given Right(TM) to juggle balls of oily rags by the fireplace. When your neighbor's house is burning down you're a libertarian, when your house is burning down you're a socialist.

It's not abstraction, it's argumentative levels of convenience and becoming a favored tactic by too many people to get their way.

If the real world isn't going the way you want, argue broad philosophical arguments. If the real world is going the way you want, argue real world.

And, when all else fails, make stuff up about people.



In my opinion, allowing one person to impose these kinds of incredibly strict restrictions on every aspect of our lives is too much power to put in one person's hands. If Gretchen Whitmer can do it, then Donald Trump can do it. I don't like that idea.
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Old 16th April 2020, 08:34 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
In my opinion, allowing one person to impose these kinds of incredibly strict restrictions on every aspect of our lives is too much power to put in one person's hands. If Gretchen Whitmer can do it, then Donald Trump can do it. I don't like that idea.
Well I don't like the idea of dying because Billy Bob can't differentiate between stopping a pandemic and the Deep State taking over.

Don't Bob. Don't go "I'm not really loyal to my ideals until I apply them in scenarios, and only in scenarios, where they are counterproductive, self destructive, or outright harmful."
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Old 16th April 2020, 08:44 AM   #192
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
What more could she do?
Insist that people entering Michigan from other states have to self-isolate for 14 days, for a start.

Quote:
Like I said, I praised her for the actions that she did take, initially, but in my opinion this goes too far, and even if you think it's a good idea to take these measures, it ought to be the case that the legislature should have to sign off on it. Having that sort of power invested in the executive branch is too much.
Allowing people to visit with those outside of their homes encourages the spread of the virus, which will kill people.

I don't know enough about Michigan's legislature, how friendly or hostile it is to Whitmer, or how long it takes to get legislation passed, but I'm pretty sure that she did it the way she did because she thought it was the best way to save the greatest number of lives, rather than because she was on a power-trip or was trying to annoy you personally.
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Old 16th April 2020, 08:51 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I don't know enough about Michigan's legislature.
She's a Democrat. The Michigan State House is Republican Controlled (58 to 52) as is the Michigan State senate (22 to 16.)
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Old 16th April 2020, 08:58 AM   #194
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This article takes a broader view of these protests happening in the dumbest pockets of the populace all over America.

I think the comparison to the Tea Party is apt. Just another group of idiotic and self-entitled hypocrites.

Because we all know that every one of these morons will vote for the guy who created this situation in the first place come November.

Last edited by johnny karate; 16th April 2020 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 16th April 2020, 09:24 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Wow it's almost as if people want the government to fail no matter what they do to maintain a "Government can't do anything and we deserve to be punished for depending on them" narrative going.
... Original Government Sin?
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Old 16th April 2020, 09:25 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
... Original Government Sin?
Pretty much.
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Old 16th April 2020, 09:46 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Who's writing this ******? Least funny mockumentary I've ever seen.
It is so painfully obvious what this is all about: Linda McMahon and her Trump re-election SuperPac fundraiser get special treatment from the Idiot in Chief.
Quote:
‘As a brand that has been woven into the fabric of society, WWE and its Superstars bring families together and deliver a sense of hope, determination and perseverance.’
Jesus on a pogo stick. That is stupid. WWE is staged entertainment as honest as Trump and as much a 'sport' as hopscotch. Why anyone watches that crap is a mystery. To make that an 'essential' business is pure political favoritism.
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Old 16th April 2020, 09:55 AM   #198
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And WWE held a mass firing of a lot of its on-screen and behind the scenes talent yesterday.
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Old 16th April 2020, 09:59 AM   #199
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
A bit of a loose fit for this thread, but probably better here than anywhere else: 60,000 protest Michigan stay-at-home order with a rally. Many were armed, and all were ignoring social distancing.

Two things the article doesn't mention that I've seen reported elsewhere: People were actually travelling from different states to join in, and the "causing gridlock" part of the protest blocked ambulances from getting in to hospitals.

I hope there are criminal charges for as many people involved as possible.
Idiots. When I saw the picture of these idiots I was completely unsurprised: Right wing extremists.

Quote:
But there’s no question these protests are organized. The anti-Whitmer action was stirred up by a group called the Michigan Conservative Coalition. Conservative legislators joined and regaled the Kentucky crowds. Veteran militia leader Ammon Bundy was at the center of civil disobedience in Idaho. And as the Washington Post reported earlier this week, a much broader effort to fight restrictive orders is under way with a powerful group of conservative actors in charge:


[C]onservative groups, meanwhile, are pushing for the White House and GOP lawmakers to push back against health professionals who have urged more caution.

The outside effort from conservative groups is expected to be led by Stephen Moore, a conservative at the Heritage Foundation who is close with White House economic officials; Jenny Beth Martin, co-founder of the Tea Party Patriots; Adam Brandon, president of FreedomWorks, a conservative advocacy organization; and Lisa Nelson, chief executive of the American Legislative Exchange Council, a conservative organization with ties to the Koch brothers, according to the three people, who were granted anonymity to reveal details of an effort that had not been publicly revealed.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020...-movement.html

ETA: ninja'd by johnny karate

Last edited by Stacyhs; 16th April 2020 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 16th April 2020, 10:06 AM   #200
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Surely simpler to just say 'He's Jesus, therefore he didn't inherit 'cos he's special - he is the Messiah after all.' Religion is nuts...
Agreed. The psychology of religion is what's always fascinated me. People are not comfortable with "I don't know". They want answers for everything and are willing to accept almost any explanation, no matter how unfounded on logic, history, science, common sense or how contradictory, rather than accept there is no answer. Religion truly is the opium of the masses.
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