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Tags donald trump , lying charges

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Old 12th May 2020, 05:52 PM   #1
acbytesla
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Why does Trump lie about EVERYTHING?/Commander in Cheat

My question is this. Why does Trump feel the need to lie about everything and why do some people ignore this?

Trump is so used to exaggerating, it has become his standard approach to anything. Most people lie from time to time, but they aren't compelled to make things up when there is little reason to.

Any theories?
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Old 12th May 2020, 06:15 PM   #2
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See the Trump has a mental illness thread. It explains things well.
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Old 12th May 2020, 06:16 PM   #3
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I think it is more likely that he knows absolutely nothing at all about anything, and will simply make **** up that he thinks sounds good.

His head is basically empty, but for the basic reptilian instincts. If it wasn't for his thick skull, the vacuum would drag his ears in. And he has been determined to be profoundly ignorant since childhood. Nobody has ever said NO to him, or forced him to actually pay attention and learn, or made him own up to his mistakes. His narcissism has been fed juicy red meat for all his life.

So his ability to reason out problems and avoid pitfalls based on prior knowledge is zero because he doesn't retain any prior knowledge. Having never experienced negative feedback means he believes anything he says is gospel and profound. So any resistance, any kickback, any questioning is an assault on his narcissistic castle, leading to towering anger and bitter denial.

So it is not so much that he lies all the time so much as he lives in a fairy tale land in his head. He thinks he is all-knowing and thus his truths are the only ones he accepts. When reality bites and shows him he is profoundly wrong, he continues to insist he is right because he has never learned to learn otherwise.
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Old 12th May 2020, 06:24 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
See the Trump has a mental illness thread. It explains things well.
You think it all comes down to a mental illness?
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Old 12th May 2020, 06:41 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You think it all comes down to a mental illness?
I know it wasn't addressed to me, but I want to add a voice of support to what I'm confident SG will say.

I think she has made a pretty good case for it. Yes, I think our president is nuts, and that explains his need to lie about everything. Of course, he doesn't lie about everything, really. He only lies about things that he thinks make him look bad, or make his enemies look good, or make his friends look good if it would make them look better than him. I think SG will state it, and I think she's right.
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Old 12th May 2020, 06:43 PM   #6
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50% mental illness, 50% the actual desire to live in a post-truth world.

I'm not kidding or exaggerating when I say we are staring down the barrel of sizeable number of people desiring to abandon factualness as a concept.
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Old 12th May 2020, 06:51 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I know it wasn't addressed to me, but I want to add a voice of support to what I'm confident SG will say.

I think she has made a pretty good case for it. Yes, I think our president is nuts, and that explains his need to lie about everything. Of course, he doesn't lie about everything, really. He only lies about things that he thinks make him look bad, or make his enemies look good, or make his friends look good if it would make them look better than him. I think SG will state it, and I think she's right.
Maybe not everything, but damn close.
A lot of people will lie when backed ito a corner. And people will often attempt to put a positive spin on things. But Trump lies about so many things without a decent reason.

For example, Instead of saying that the companies are working on getting enough tests available, he lies about it. What does he think it will buy him when the words are demonstrably false?
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Old 12th May 2020, 06:54 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
For example, Instead of saying that the companies are working on getting enough tests available, he lies about it. What does he think it will buy him when the words are demonstrably false?
Continued social and political support driven largely by a core base of nihilist driven 100% by spite and revenge.

Trump lying triggers the libs. It gets them angry.

That's the answer to everything Trump does. Does it make sane, rational, good people angry? Then that's why he's doing it.

Trump lying, even to the point he's constantly contradicting himself. Trump being a hypocrite 100% of the time about everything. Trump going down the checklist of everything that liberals support and crapping on it. It's all done for the same reason, trolling.
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Old 12th May 2020, 06:55 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You think it all comes down to a mental illness?
Pretty much, yes.

His pathologic narcissism.

He cannot admit he is wrong.

He has to make up the world to keep his fragile ego from bursting.

For example, he imagined the pandemic would go away. When it didn't he imagined he acted to address it and he blames China (projection of his own lack of acting).

It's always someone else's fault, again projecting.

All his constant lies focus around his ego.


Name something you don't think his mental illness explains.
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Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 12th May 2020, 06:56 PM   #10
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You know how American English and British English are different yet similar enough to allow for communication? Trump speaks BS English.

As an American, I can toss together a few “cheerios” and “blimeys” and “what’s all this thens” just like I can BS here and there. But none of it is authentically me.

Trump can, just barely and only rarely, manage to sound like he speaks genuine American English. But his pure native dialect is BS.
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Old 12th May 2020, 07:06 PM   #11
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I think this article sheds some light on the topic:
The Styrofoam Presidency
A normal liar still sees value in the truth, just as a general concept, and it is important for them to differentiate between truth and lies but I don't think that makes any difference to Trump.
Quote:
Trump had no use for any of it: the magnanimity, the generosity, the awe (unless it’s inspired by him personally), the pride (unless it’s his own), the aspiration. Indeed, the single quality he displayed repeatedly was his lack of aspiration. Take his speech. Better yet, take the cake. On Saturday it emerged that the inaugural-ball cake that Trump and Vice President Mike Pence cut with a sword was a knock-off of President Obama’s 2013 inaugural-ball cake. Obama’s was created by celebrity chef Duff Goldman. Trump’s was commissioned from a decidedly more modest Washington bakery than Goldman’s, and the transition-team representative who put in the order explicitly asked for an exact copy of Goldman’s design—even when the baker suggested creating a variation on the theme of Goldman’s cake. Only a small portion of Trump’s cake was edible; the rest was Styrofoam (Obama’s was cake all the way through). The cake may be the best symbol yet of the incoming administration: much of what little it brings is plagiarized, and most of it is unusable for the purpose for which presidential administrations are usually intended. Not only does it not achieve excellence: it does not even see the point of excellence
What is the difference between a styrofoam cake and a real cake if they look the same?
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Old 12th May 2020, 07:06 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Maybe not everything, but damn close.
A lot of people will lie when backed ito a corner. And people will often attempt to put a positive spin on things. But Trump lies about so many things without a decent reason.

For example, Instead of saying that the companies are working on getting enough tests available, he lies about it. What does he think it will buy him when the words are demonstrably false?
Understanding that is the key to realizing it really is a mental illness. Lots of people lie, but usually it's a scheme to gain something. Part of the decision to lie is assuming you can get away with it and not get caught. I don't think Trump ever gets to that point. He isn't trying to get away with telling a lie. He's altering reality to make it fit his needs. That's why he lies even when his claims are demonstrably false. He has shifted his world view to make them true in his head.

That's why it's a mental illness. I think he actually believes almost everything he says, and the next day, when something else would be more convenient, but it contradicts what he said yesterday, he believes that, too.
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Old 12th May 2020, 07:12 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
You know how American English and British English are different yet similar enough to allow for communication? Trump speaks BS English.

As an American, I can toss together a few “cheerios” and “blimeys” and “what’s all this thens” just like I can BS here and there. But none of it is authenticity me.

Trump can, just barely and only rarely, manage to sound like he speaks genuine American English. But his pure native dialect is BS.
Trump reminds me of the not so smart football player running for Student Body President who cracks jokes during his campaign speech. And the American electorate has turned into High School Students that God forbid don't want to listen to the smart guy or girl running against them so they don't.
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Old 12th May 2020, 07:16 PM   #14
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I read somewhere recently that when trump is just privately talking -- this was from someone who had listened to recordings of calls between trump and Michael Cohen -- trump sounds like a different person. Everything was different, the inflections, the cadence, even the sound of his voice. They said he actually sounded like a halfway normal human being. For trump that is VERY surprising.
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Old 12th May 2020, 07:31 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

He cannot admit he is wrong.
Certainly possible.

Also possible is it’s learned behavior. Hardfast rules first gleaned from Roy Cohn, and later refined by Roger Stone. Never admit you’re wrong. Take credit for everything good, blame others for everything bad. Praise those who are useful to you. Belittle and mock and caricature anyone who dare oppose you.

I think a sane person could just make a conscious effort to follow those rules. Which, we have to admit, got a very small man all the way to the White House. But I suspect over the years these rules have been internalized to the extent they are indistinguishable from a mental disorder. And as such, may have actually become a mental disorder.
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Old 12th May 2020, 07:42 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Certainly possible.

Also possible is it’s learned behavior. Hardfast rules first gleaned from Roy Cohn, and later refined by Roger Stone. Never admit you’re wrong. Take credit for everything good, blame others for everything bad. Praise those who are useful to you. Belittle and mock and caricature anyone who dare oppose you.

I think a sane person could just make a conscious effort to follow those rules. Which, we have to admit, got a very small man all the way to the White House. But I suspect over the years these rules have been internalized to the extent they are indistinguishable from a mental disorder. And as such, may have actually become a mental disorder.
I really wish a Democratic politician would bluntly and repeatedly refer to him as the Liar in Chief. I'm so sick of people not taking it to him. I'd make it damn clear that while decorum should be how politicians treat each other, it's ridiculous to play nice while Trump has broken all the rules.
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Old 12th May 2020, 07:46 PM   #17
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I agree with SG: Trump is a full-fledged, unabashed, cream of the crop malignant narcissist and pathological liar. It's a severe personality disorder.

I think the primary reason Trump hates Obama so much is because, deep down, he knows Obama is everything he isn't and never can be. He hate him for that.
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Old 12th May 2020, 07:51 PM   #18
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Trump lies as a matter of policy, to cover his other lies, because he can, because he always has, because he has never suffered for his lies, because he flatters himself, and because he likes it. He lies because he is nuttier than squirrel ****, though only half as smart.
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Old 12th May 2020, 07:51 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I read somewhere recently that when trump is just privately talking -- this was from someone who had listened to recordings of calls between trump and Michael Cohen -- trump sounds like a different person. Everything was different, the inflections, the cadence, even the sound of his voice. They said he actually sounded like a halfway normal human being. For trump that is VERY surprising.
That would have been from a few years ago. I'm certain he has lost a lot of his facility since then.
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Old 12th May 2020, 08:01 PM   #20
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You might enjoy this:

https://youtu.be/69r1SxxPnaI?t=64
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Old 12th May 2020, 08:02 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Certainly possible.

Also possible is it’s learned behavior. Hardfast rules first gleaned from Roy Cohn, and later refined by Roger Stone. Never admit you’re wrong. Take credit for everything good, blame others for everything bad. Praise those who are useful to you. Belittle and mock and caricature anyone who dare oppose you.

I think a sane person could just make a conscious effort to follow those rules. Which, we have to admit, got a very small man all the way to the White House. But I suspect over the years these rules have been internalized to the extent they are indistinguishable from a mental disorder. And as such, may have actually become a mental disorder.
Supporting facts not in evidence.

Yeah, sure, devise any hypothetical you want.

That ignores everything we know about this *******.
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Old 12th May 2020, 08:27 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Understanding that is the key to realizing it really is a mental illness. Lots of people lie, but usually it's a scheme to gain something. Part of the decision to lie is assuming you can get away with it and not get caught. I don't think Trump ever gets to that point. He isn't trying to get away with telling a lie. He's altering reality to make it fit his needs. That's why he lies even when his claims are demonstrably false. He has shifted his world view to make them true in his head.

That's why it's a mental illness. I think he actually believes almost everything he says, and the next day, when something else would be more convenient, but it contradicts what he said yesterday, he believes that, too.
This. It's reality control. The ultimate exercising of power. If you dictate what is real, you control the world.

You know, or delude yourself into thinking you do.
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Old 12th May 2020, 08:33 PM   #23
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Remember how kids will claim the most outrageous things to impress their peers?

Trump is a kid on a playground desperate to be respected by everyone, especially the Rich Kids, the Cool Kids, the Smart Kids and, of course, the Girls.
And since he isn't very good at anything, he blows himself up like a pufferfish to look more impressive.
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Old 12th May 2020, 08:34 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
My question is this. Why does Trump feel the need to lie about everything

Because he is profoundly stupid, astonishingly ignorant, wholly unaware about his stupidity and ignorance -- intellectually more like an animal than a human being -- combined with a very high opinion of his non-existent qualities, a singular lack of integrity, and a compulsion to air his ridiculous opinions. A dishonest windbag who loves the sound of his own voice.


Quote:
and why do some people ignore this? ...

We're probably programmed to becoming inured to anything and everything over time, no matter how wholly monstrous at first blush. A survival trait, probably?


What is astonishing to me is how so MANY people STILL continue to SUPPORT this ... this unbelievable monstrosity. What this says about 'us' is what is very, very disturbing.
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Old 12th May 2020, 08:37 PM   #25
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At the core, Trump has based his life on a misunderstanding of the phrase:" fake it till you make it".
He thinks it means that once you are able to fake doing something it's just like actually doing it.
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Old 12th May 2020, 08:44 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Certainly possible.

Also possible is it’s learned behavior. Hardfast rules first gleaned from Roy Cohn, and later refined by Roger Stone. Never admit you’re wrong. Take credit for everything good, blame others for everything bad. Praise those who are useful to you. Belittle and mock and caricature anyone who dare oppose you.

I think a sane person could just make a conscious effort to follow those rules. Which, we have to admit, got a very small man all the way to the White House. But I suspect over the years these rules have been internalized to the extent they are indistinguishable from a mental disorder. And as such, may have actually become a mental disorder.
Yes, a sane person could follow the rules, but I don’t know if a sane person could ever do it as forcefully, as confidently, and as quickly as Chief Lies-a-Lot.


ETA
A sane person playing a game could have handled the press briefing with the why-is-it-a-competition question. But that question was beyond POTUS.

MORE ETA:
The line on the weather map is the best example of a mental disorder.
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Old 12th May 2020, 08:59 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Maybe not everything, but damn close.
A lot of people will lie when backed ito a corner. And people will often attempt to put a positive spin on things. But Trump lies about so many things without a decent reason.

For example, Instead of saying that the companies are working on getting enough tests available, he lies about it. What does he think it will buy him when the words are demonstrably false?


Demonstrably false to whom?
You will have a devil of a time convincing his followers that his claims can easily be demonstrated to be false with widely-accepted and well-documented facts.

The guy spends 20-60 minutes every day and 50-70 minutes every rally hammering home the message that everyone but him is a liar. The US press, the foreign press, foreign leaders - they are all liars. FFS, he has even convinced his followers that the CIA, the NSA, DHS, the FBI are all liars out to get him (OMG, the Deep State is After me!!11!).
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Old 12th May 2020, 09:06 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
What is astonishing to me is how so MANY people STILL continue to SUPPORT this ... this unbelievable monstrosity. What this says about 'us' is what is very, very disturbing.
It stuns me. I haven't liked a single Republican president of my life time. But I understood their appeal. Trump is truly a despicable human being absent of any redeeming character I can see. I have never seen a single person in my entire life more self centered, more rude and more dishonest.

A very distant second was one of my older brothers who lied and exaggerated a lot. The difference being, my brother went to prison and deserved it. Trump is much worse and the country made him President.

I don't get it.
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Old 12th May 2020, 09:19 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Demonstrably false to whom?
You will have a devil of a time convincing his followers that his claims can easily be demonstrated to be false with widely-accepted and well-documented facts.

The guy spends 20-60 minutes every day and 50-70 minutes every rally hammering home the message that everyone but him is a liar. The US press, the foreign press, foreign leaders - they are all liars. FFS, he has even convinced his followers that the CIA, the NSA, DHS, the FBI are all liars out to get him (OMG, the Deep State is After me!!11!).
Yes he does. But that doesn't mean that his lies are not demonstrably false.

You really have to do a reality check when someone says everybody, but you are lying. Trump has often contradicted a lie he told earlier in the same press conference. You don't need "fake news" to tell you Trump lies, you can view many many of his the lies on video.

Big trouble on day one when he grotesquely talked about the crowds at his inauguration and the pictures contradicted him. His own staff contradicts him. We've watched it over and over during this pandemic.
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Old 12th May 2020, 10:27 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Understanding that is the key to realizing it really is a mental illness. Lots of people lie, but usually it's a scheme to gain something. Part of the decision to lie is assuming you can get away with it and not get caught. I don't think Trump ever gets to that point. He isn't trying to get away with telling a lie. He's altering reality to make it fit his needs. That's why he lies even when his claims are demonstrably false. He has shifted his world view to make them true in his head.

That's why it's a mental illness. I think he actually believes almost everything he says, and the next day, when something else would be more convenient, but it contradicts what he said yesterday, he believes that, too.
I agree. For him there is no such thing as reality (and no such thing as morality). He just says what he believes, or wants to believe at that moment and in his head it becomes reality.

A little like Shiva, as Lord Nataraja, dances the world into existence, Trump’s thoughts create his world as he thinks them.

Okay that was a reach. Trump is more like the demon of confusion and ignorance on which Shiva stands during the dance.
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Old 12th May 2020, 10:54 PM   #31
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I don't believe Trump is insane. Not at all. But he is mentally ill. The two are not synonymous.

Interestingly, a study was done concerning the acceptance of lying. Unsurprisingly, people with a right-wing authoritarian mindset are much more accepting of politicians lying:

Why So Many Trump Supporters Are OK With the President's Lies

Quote:
The research, published in the journal Personality and Individual Differences, finds Republicans are more likely than Democrats or independents to consider overt lying on the part of a politician morally acceptable behavior. This difference is largely driven by Trump supporters' endorsement of authoritarianism.
Quote:
In addition, self-declared Republicans were significantly more tolerant of overt lying or paltering than Democrats (and slightly more tolerant of lying by omission). The researchers found this could be traced to their much higher levels of right-wing authoritarianism.
Quote:
The results provide new evidence that our current political polarization reflects deep-seated differences that extend far beyond individual issues. "Right-wing authoritarianism captures the tendency to defer to legitimized authority," the researchers write. If, in your mind, your leader can do no wrong, it follows that he can lie with impunity.
I think this also explains Evangelicals' support of Trump even though he breaks the Ninth Commandment several times a day.
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Old 13th May 2020, 12:12 AM   #32
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Another trait of his is that he is always accusing others of doing things that he has already done or of things he wants to do.

I suppose it could be something that he is consciously doing. But I suspect (with no medical qualifications at all) that he is rather incapable of understanding that other people might have a moral code that prevents them from considering these actions.

Also, his attitude about loyalty also indicates a self-centeredness that may rise to the level of a mental disorder. He expects everyone to be loyal to him and to display that loyalty by agreeing with him unquestioningly. But that loyalty is a one way street. He never displays loyalty to others if it inconveniences him in any way.
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Old 13th May 2020, 01:52 AM   #33
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Pathological lying: Psychopathy (Wikipedia)
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Old 13th May 2020, 02:18 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
50% mental illness, 50% the actual desire to live in a post-truth world.

I'm not kidding or exaggerating when I say we are staring down the barrel of sizeable number of people desiring to abandon factualness as a concept.
Yes, damn facts and their useful reproducibility.
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Old 13th May 2020, 03:38 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm not kidding or exaggerating when I say we are staring down the barrel of sizeable number of people desiring to abandon factualness as a concept.
Oh, absolutely. There's always been those who forego facts to achieve some goal, with a kind of "the end justifies the means" approach, but this is the first time in modern times we've had such a person as POTUS, and he seems to have caused a heck of a lot of them to come out of the woodwork.
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Old 13th May 2020, 04:33 AM   #36
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People seem to forget that Trump was elected!!

Why did America elect a known liar?

It would be expected that by now his approval rating would be near zero but it is not. His approval rating is almost the same since before he was elected President which means America is satisfied with the known liar?

Why does a known liar appeal to America?

Who has really gone mad- Trump or America??
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Old 13th May 2020, 04:45 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by dejudge View Post
People seem to forget that Trump was elected!!

Why did America elect a known liar?
Because a tipping point, not necessarily a majority but a tipping point of voters localized in areas with out of balance political power due to how our system is set up (electoral college, first past the post voting, gerrymandering, etc) are reliant on facts no longer mattering in order to maintain their core identifies.

You can't think the Earth is younger than 6,000 years, that climate change isn't real, that Hillary Clinton is running a pizza parlor child sex dungeon, that the world is secretly run by a cabal of elite pedophiles, in the "Deep State,"or any of a number of other insane fantasies and be intellectually... whole.

At the end of the day the core of what happened is enough people finally had to choose between retaining their opinion or rejecting the very concept of factual correctness and a lot of them chose the latter.

We're in a very, very weird time because "Well I'm just going to be wrong" still isn't something most people are willing to say; either to other people or themselves. So they are trying, desperately, to find a way to say it without saying it. What we are seeing now is the great masses of factually wrong people trying to agree on a code word, a euphemism, a rationalization they can all agree on.

If we let them solidify a central mentality around "Well I'm not factually correct but that doesn't matter" it will truly be over. Facts will no longer matter.
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Old 13th May 2020, 05:11 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yes he does. But that doesn't mean that his lies are not demonstrably false.

You really have to do a reality check when someone says everybody, but you are lying. Trump has often contradicted a lie he told earlier in the same press conference. You don't need "fake news" to tell you Trump lies, you can view many many of his the lies on video.


Except that, after decades of arguing with conspiracy theorists and truthers, it's become clear that there is a certain percentage of the population who actually, literally, cannot see things that contradict their beliefs, even when it's right in front of them.

I mean this literally. There were several examples of CT videos wherein the video presenter was narrating what was seen on the screen, and their narration was completely at odds with what was being shown in the video. There was one video (I think it was of the Madrid Towers fire), where the truther says something like "...and the steel framing was completely unharmed!" at exactly the same moment the video showed the complete collapse of the steel framing.

And what the election of Trump, and the continued levels of support for Trump, shows is that the CT segment of our population is larger than we ever suspected. We're at a point where 30-40% of the US population actually believes that the entire intelligence apparatus of the US is involved in a plot to take down Trump at the behest of Obama.

This is an argument we cannot win, because the people we are arguing with are literally incapable of understanding arguments.
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Old 13th May 2020, 05:17 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Except that, after decades of arguing with conspiracy theorists and truthers, it's become clear that there is a certain percentage of the population who actually, literally, cannot see things that contradict their beliefs, even when it's right in front of them.
And that's the thing I keep coming back to, how... absolutely not new this is to anyone who's been a skeptic for a while.

You really want an answer to "Why did Trump happen?" Because of a generation of "Oh come on now just let people believe what they want, why do you have to be right all the time, they aren't hurting anybody, just ignore them."
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Old 13th May 2020, 06:35 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And that's the thing I keep coming back to, how... absolutely not new this is to anyone who's been a skeptic for a while.

You really want an answer to "Why did Trump happen?" Because of a generation of "Oh come on now just let people believe what they want, why do you have to be right all the time, they aren't hurting anybody, just ignore them."
It goes deeper than that Trump feeds on a Type of Racist American Nationalism, and Taps into people's fears and conspiracy theories that have been seen even when this Forum was Jref,. Fear of Communist China, Low wage earners taking American Jobs and Out competiting Americans, thieft of intellectual property and other like issues.
There are many reasons Trump can get away with Lying and many people I talk to locally just reply the Deep State and Soros owned media Lie more than Trump.
It's a class if cutures actually, Brains against conspiracy theories.
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