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Tags protest incidents , protest issues , Seattle incidents

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Old 15th September 2020, 01:08 PM   #1521
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm surprised neolib types haven't kicked the can of responsibility by requiring police get malpractice insurance from the free market.

There are huge numbers of cops that would be unemployable because no one would be willing to insure them given their record of brutality, and it wouldn't require a single DA having the courage to press charges. Insurance companies might make "Don't violate civil rights" training mandatory as a condition of carrying a policy.

Come on technocrats, do your thing!
Huh. That's... not a bad idea. Not a complete fix, but would probably have some efficacy.
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Old 15th September 2020, 01:10 PM   #1522
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Deleted, wrong thread
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Old 15th September 2020, 06:54 PM   #1523
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
There's a person standing on my car without my permission who does not immediately jump off my car is a valid reason for me to remove that person by whatever means necessary--including accelerating in reverse quickly so they lose their footing and fall off and then accelerating quickly in the opposite direction in order to injure them seriously enough so they are unable to jump back on my car.
I doubt that would fly as self defense.
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Old 15th September 2020, 10:05 PM   #1524
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Other solution: take the money for settling with victims of police violence out of the cops' pension fund.
Cops would kick out loose cannons as soon as they see themz.
Either that or right out of the police department's budget.

Louisville Will Pay $12 Million to Settle Lawsuit by Breonna Taylor's Family

This would effectively be a way to "defund the police" but only if you really mean it. Provides an economic incentive for the police to not violate people's rights because the costs of that will come out of their own budget.
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Old 15th September 2020, 10:26 PM   #1525
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Either that or right out of the police department's budget.

Louisville Will Pay $12 Million to Settle Lawsuit by Breonna Taylor's Family

This would effectively be a way to "defund the police" but only if you really mean it. Provides an economic incentive for the police to not violate people's rights because the costs of that will come out of their own budget.
They would just cut everything but pay - not really an incentive.
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Old 16th September 2020, 06:33 AM   #1526
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm surprised neolib types haven't kicked the can of responsibility by requiring police get malpractice insurance from the free market.


There are huge numbers of cops that would be unemployable because no one would be willing to insure them given their record of brutality, and it wouldn't require a single DA having the courage to press charges. Insurance companies might make "Don't violate civil rights" training mandatory as a condition of carrying a policy.

Come on technocrats, do your thing!
Oh, it has been brought up here or there.

Really, it already works this way. There is plenty of money out there willing to defend police misconduct. Unions, local governments, and so on.

It isn't like the officer is the one peeling off the cash to pay lawyers in a QI case that goes to the supreme court. Someone is paying for this.

Making it insurance would provide a profit center for insurance companies and little else, which, yeah, hard to see why this isn't a centrist Democratic position.
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Old 16th September 2020, 06:36 AM   #1527
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Oh, it has been brought up here or there.

Really, it already works this way. There is plenty of money out there willing to defend police misconduct. Unions, local governments, and so on.

It isn't like the officer is the one peeling off the cash to pay lawyers in a QI case that goes to the supreme court. Someone is paying for this.

Making it insurance would provide a profit center for insurance companies and little else, which, yeah, hard to see why this isn't a centrist Democratic position.
Sure, but the big difference is that the police union wouldn't be able to wield political power to coerce the insurance companies to cover high liability cops. A private insurance company will not keep on expensive liabilities the way a city government might.

There are plenty of examples of cops on the force that everyone knows are huge liabilities because of past records of misconduct and lawsuit payouts. The city won't dump them because they are beholden to the police unions.
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Old 16th September 2020, 06:57 AM   #1528
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sure, but the big difference is that the police union wouldn't be able to wield political power to coerce the insurance companies to cover high liability cops. A private insurance company will not keep on expensive liabilities the way a city government might.

There are plenty of examples of cops on the force that everyone knows are huge liabilities because of past records of misconduct and lawsuit payouts. The city won't dump them because they are beholden to the police unions.
The insurance companies won't refuse to insure individual cops for the exact same reason. The Union will negotiate the contracts and this all gets priced in and will eventually through some mechanism come out of our pockets anyway as part of police compensation. At best this transfers some costs to private donors.

Plus, now you have the for profit insurers enthusiastically joining the police in lobbying for ways to make it harder to redress harm. Want to see QI expanded and non-federal remedies further hollowed out? Have the insurance industry have a ton of skin in the game.
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Old 16th September 2020, 07:04 AM   #1529
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
The insurance companies won't refuse to insure individual cops for the exact same reason. The Union will negotiate the contracts and this all gets priced in and will eventually through some mechanism come out of our pockets anyway as part of police compensation. At best this transfers some costs to private donors.

Plus, now you have the for profit insurers enthusiastically joining the police in lobbying for ways to make it harder to redress harm. Want to see QI expanded and non-federal remedies further hollowed out? Have the insurance industry have a ton of skin in the game.
I hadn't considered that. Yeah, the unions would group negotiate and eventually make the city responsible for the premiums. I suppose this idea sucks and does little, other than adding a private group that can skim out a profit from the deal.

I meant this largely as a joke. The real solution is prosecution. Criminal charges cut through all the nonsense of HR-union negotiated discipline, blah blah blah. Let them complain to their union steward in jail.

The problem of police is political, and political will is required to change the toxic culture.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:06 AM   #1530
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Fox News.

Gingrich: "The number 1 problem in almost all these cities is George Soros elected left-wing antipolice pro-criminal DAs"

Francis: "I'm not sure we need to bring Soros into this"

G: "He paid for it, why can't we discuss that"

Harf:"No, he didn't"

G: "OK, so it's verboten?"
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:18 AM   #1531
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Up until about a week ago that was the standard line from the MSM and the Joe and the Ho fanboys
You lie. Try again.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:18 AM   #1532
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I hadn't considered that. Yeah, the unions would group negotiate and eventually make the city responsible for the premiums. I suppose this idea sucks and does little, other than adding a private group that can skim out a profit from the deal.

I meant this largely as a joke. The real solution is prosecution. Criminal charges cut through all the nonsense of HR-union negotiated discipline, blah blah blah. Let them complain to their union steward in jail.

The problem of police is political, and political will is required to change the toxic culture.
Really, a massive part of the problems are police unions and "benevolence" societies that actively work to avoid penalties for unprofessional conduct.

I've noted before that police "unions" are not at all like normal unions - anyone who knows the early days of the union movement, as well as the outlawing of drugs will recognize that police were then, as they are now, inflictors of state violence against whoever the wealthy dislike. So, yes, a part of this involved campaign finance and the like. But make no mistake that this is a long-running and fundamental issue with US policing, and the US in general, as often seen in, for example, the use of barriers to prevent homeless people from sleeping...well, anywhere, because "they're dirty and drive down the value of empty apartments and condos".

Basically, rather than protectors, US police often act as violent street goons, particularly in poor, and especially in black and indigenous, areas. That must end. Break up their unions and "benevolence" societies, refuse to negotiate. Stop pushing minority police as a solution - they aren't, this is like relying on Candace Owens for "African-American outreach", the black person who volunteers is often even worse than white ones. Drastically reduce what police are responsible for, move towards social work instead - reserve police, particularly well-armed police, for potentially violent situations, actual violence, and crime investigation. SWAT teams should be reserved for extreme situations, rather than for routine warrants (many of which should not be illegal in the first place). Military surplus should be state-level, only, and use against nonviolent protestors should result in confiscation (rather than failure to use such equipment, which only serves to incentivize it's misuse). Yes, lightly-armed police will be needed for some nonviolent matters, such as DUIs and the like This is a general blueprint, not a full-on detailed analysis.

And stop drumming it into cops' heads that every situation is life-or-death. They aren't.

People who are, somehow, shocked by the small group of people cheering the shooting of two cops in Compton seem to have forgotten the *decades* of loud and clear complaints against this exact police force, which predates NWA and runs straight through today. When you're bad enough to spawn numerous internationally popular songs about what horrible people your local city group is, you may want to consider that you might just be the baddies. None of this is new.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:21 AM   #1533
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The blue wall of silence is built on a foundation of white supremacy grouted with the police union. They consider the general public the enemy, especially people of color.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:23 AM   #1534
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Fox News.

Gingrich: "The number 1 problem in almost all these cities is George Soros elected left-wing antipolice pro-criminal DAs"

Francis: "I'm not sure we need to bring Soros into this"

G: "He paid for it, why can't we discuss that"

Harf:"No, he didn't"

G: "OK, so it's verboten?"
I have yet to meet a person who has received a Soros paycheck for protesting police brutality - particularly as some sort of prearranged agreement.

However!

If Soros is somehow helping finance these, then good for him, he's a vastly better humanitarian than Newt Gingrich - and also a better historian, simply by refusing to write about history, just as an aside.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:25 AM   #1535
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I have yet to meet a person who has received a Soros paycheck for protesting police brutality - particularly as some sort of prearranged agreement.

However!

If Soros is somehow helping finance these, then good for him, he's a vastly better humanitarian than Newt Gingrich - and also a better historian, simply by refusing to write about history, just as an aside.
(((George Soros)))

God they want to say it so bad. Champing at the bit to go mask off.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:45 AM   #1536
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The Newt started this "making the others lose is more important than winning" strategy and finds himself at the predictable endpoint: blaming the Jooos.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:28 PM   #1537
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
-Somebody who is not Andy Ngo curates a list of Antifa bad people and according to this blogger, does a pretty crappy job of going about doing that
-Andy Ngo publishes this crappy list on a website to the public, the public includes Atomwaffen. Also: Atomwaffen may, or may not exist.
-Conclusion: Andy Ngô is a threat to our communities and provides kill lists to Atomwaffen
Cool story bro!
Looks like Andy Ngo has a new trick. He posts mugshots and personal info for every protester arrested in the Portland area.

Quote:
Twelve nights later, on Aug. 19, a man showed up on the doorstep of Gray's mother's eastside home. "He was sweaty and nervous looking, and he asked for Ragina by name," says Lucinda Fisher, Gray's mom. "He mentioned [Gray's] son, and I noticed he had a gun in his hand." Fisher slammed the door and called the police.
Quote:
The Wenzels alerted their employers. On Aug. 18, three days after Ngo posted the mug shot, Phillip Wenzel's boss at Elizabeth Christy Law Firm sent him a letter that the firm had received 50 threatening or harassing communications since his arrest.
Andy Ngo, terrorist whisperer.

https://www.wweek.com/news/2020/09/1...itter-account/
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:33 PM   #1538
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Looks like Andy Ngo has a new trick. He posts mugshots and personal info for every protester arrested in the Portland area.





Andy Ngo, terrorist whisperer.

https://www.wweek.com/news/2020/09/1...itter-account/
Remember when Trumpanzees complained about "doxxing"?
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:34 PM   #1539
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Looks like Andy Ngo has a new trick. He posts mugshots and personal info for every protester arrested in the Portland area.





Andy Ngo, terrorist whisperer.

https://www.wweek.com/news/2020/09/1...itter-account/
Just a little Cancelling.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:35 PM   #1540
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Remember when Trumpanzees complained about "doxxing"?
Antifa doxxing is bad, because neo-confederates and neo-nazis sometimes lose their jobs.

Doxxing so that the same nazis can show up with a gun to murder a 9 year old boy because the mother got a disorderly conduct charge at a protest, that's a-ok.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:38 PM   #1541
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Antifa doxxing is bad, because neo-confederates and neo-nazis sometimes lose their jobs.

Doxxing so that the same nazis can show up with a gun to murder a 9 year old boy because the mother got a disorderly conduct charge at a protest, that's a-ok.
I sense you are on the verge of a breakthrough. Hang in there, growth can be a painful experience.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:41 PM   #1542
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I sense you are on the verge of a breakthrough. Hang in there, growth can be a painful experience.
I suppose it's some consolation that posting public mugshots from his home is about the only "journalism" that Andy Ngo can do these days, since he'd probably be murdered on sight if he ever went anywhere near these protests.

There's a real "who shaves the barber" conundrum here. Who's gonna post the mugshot of whoever beats Ngo to death?
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Old 16th September 2020, 02:18 PM   #1543
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
The insurance companies won't refuse to insure individual cops for the exact same reason. The Union will negotiate the contracts and this all gets priced in and will eventually through some mechanism come out of our pockets anyway as part of police compensation. At best this transfers some costs to private donors.

Plus, now you have the for profit insurers enthusiastically joining the police in lobbying for ways to make it harder to redress harm. Want to see QI expanded and non-federal remedies further hollowed out? Have the insurance industry have a ton of skin in the game.
I don't know if that's a valid assumption. Medical Malpractice isn't collectively bargained, and varies based on the risk related to the individual doctor. It's not insurance for the hospital as a whole (they usually have umbrella protections too), but is coverage for the specific doctor.
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Old 16th September 2020, 02:20 PM   #1544
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Doxxing is bad. No additional qualifiers needed.
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Old 17th September 2020, 04:05 AM   #1545
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Doxxing is bad. No additional qualifiers needed.
Do you really think so?

Recently "Vic Mackey" was doxxed by antifascists. He's the head of a podcast called "Bowl Patrol", named after the bowl haircut of convicted multiple murderer Dylan Roof, who shot defenseless black people at church in the name of white supremacy. They lionize people like Roof and others as "saints".

Mackey has bragged about vandalizing a synagogue under his alias and has encouraged acts of racial violence. Since being doxxed, his firearms were confiscated under an emergency order in California. None of this is possible without doxxing by antifascists. The state authorities admit as much in their filings. Without doxxing by amateur antifa sleuths, none of this would have happened to "Vic".

Was doxxing this terrorist propagandist bad, without qualifiers?

Andrew Casarez of Orangevale, California, btw.

https://accollective.noblogs.org/pos...of-orangevale/
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Old 17th September 2020, 05:29 AM   #1546
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I'm not going to lose a single second of sleep if the internet outs the fact that a cop is a Nazi or a KKK member for instance, lest not in the abstract.

However I don't exactly have a huge amount of trust in the internet's ability to always get this right.

I'm still reminded of the incident where the guy ran down the protestors in Charlottesville. The internet sleuths took it upon themselves to track him down via his license plate.

Except the guy they had sold the car to a dealer almost a year prior to (hey information on the internet isn't always real time up to date) the incident and a guy who's only crime was having owned a Dodge Charger over a year ago had to put under police protection.

See also Reddit almost getting some people killed for IDing the wrong Boston Marathon Bombers.

So it's not a moral question to me, just one of reliability I guess you'd say.
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Old 17th September 2020, 07:23 AM   #1547
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Do you really think so?

Recently "Vic Mackey" was doxxed by antifascists. He's the head of a podcast called "Bowl Patrol", named after the bowl haircut of convicted multiple murderer Dylan Roof, who shot defenseless black people at church in the name of white supremacy. They lionize people like Roof and others as "saints".

Mackey has bragged about vandalizing a synagogue under his alias and has encouraged acts of racial violence. Since being doxxed, his firearms were confiscated under an emergency order in California. None of this is possible without doxxing by antifascists. The state authorities admit as much in their filings. Without doxxing by amateur antifa sleuths, none of this would have happened to "Vic".

Was doxxing this terrorist propagandist bad, without qualifiers?

Andrew Casarez of Orangevale, California, btw.

https://accollective.noblogs.org/pos...of-orangevale/
I'm fine with doxxing lawbreakers. Which is what Ngo is doing.
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Old 17th September 2020, 07:26 AM   #1548
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I'm fine with doxxing lawbreakers. Which is what Ngo is doing.
Hmm... I wonder if you’ve ever gotten a parking ticket...
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Old 17th September 2020, 07:29 AM   #1549
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I'm fine with doxxing lawbreakers. Which is what Ngo is doing.
The problem is, sometimes it works to a good end and sometimes it doesn't. Doxxing may give authorities a valid lead, but sometimes innocents end up on the death-threats/assault end of the stick. I'd rather not trust too many randoms to be in charge of that.

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Old 17th September 2020, 08:12 AM   #1550
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I don't know if that's a valid assumption. Medical Malpractice isn't collectively bargained, and varies based on the risk related to the individual doctor. It's not insurance for the hospital as a whole (they usually have umbrella protections too), but is coverage for the specific doctor.
The doctors do not have a union at all, much less one that is dedicated to making sure that doctors do not suffer consequences for their bad acts.
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Old 17th September 2020, 10:08 AM   #1551
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The problem is, sometimes it works to a good end and sometimes it doesn't. Doxxing may give authorities a valid lead, but sometimes innocents end up on the death-threats/assault end of the stick. I'd rather not trust too many randoms to be in charge of that.

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Ngo isn't providing leads and he isn't identifying the wrong people. He is simply posting on his twitter account the names and mug shots of the people arrested in the Portland riots. Public information in other words.
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Old 17th September 2020, 10:10 AM   #1552
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Hmm... I wonder if you’ve ever gotten a parking ticket...
That I never paid. Yes, IIRC it was June or July of 1980, and it was in front of Penn Station on a Saturday around noon.
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Old 17th September 2020, 10:25 AM   #1553
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
That I never paid. Yes, IIRC it was June or July of 1980, and it was in front of Penn Station on a Saturday around noon.
Cool. Open season on doxxing you, right?
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Old 17th September 2020, 10:37 AM   #1554
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Ngo isn't providing leads and he isn't identifying the wrong people. He is simply posting on his twitter account the names and mug shots of the people arrested in the Portland riots. Public information in other words.
Andy has a bad reputation when it comes to publishing lists of "bad guys." I highly recommend that you do more research on him before assuming anything approaching good intentions on his part.
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Old 17th September 2020, 10:42 AM   #1555
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I don't know if this is going to broaden the discussion too much and if it does we can ask for a threadspin off and I won't get offended.

The whole "Well it's public information, all I'm doing it putting it all in one place LOL my hands are clean not my fault if anything happens" doesn't sit well with me.

It's like if I I'm a well known anti-Left Hander and I start a website that just lists (using all hypothetically "publically available") info that correlates to the homes of Left Handers, the hours they are home, and the location of the nearest gravel quarry where you could hide and body and expect nobody to notice or make any assumptions.

If Person A who is well known, well established, and admitted Anti-Group-B starts making a list about Group B... we can fill in the blanks here people.
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Old 17th September 2020, 11:11 AM   #1556
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Do you really think so?
Yes.

The appropriate thing to do if the person in question is a threat or has engaged in criminal activity is to provide the contact information to the proper authorities. Doxxing ends up getting used to threaten, harass, and endanger people. Even if the alleged transgression is real, it's not the role of vigilante citizens to take the law into their own hands.
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Old 17th September 2020, 11:15 AM   #1557
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yes.

The appropriate thing to do if the person in question is a threat or has engaged in criminal activity is to provide the contact information to the proper authorities. Doxxing ends up getting used to threaten, harass, and endanger people. Even if the alleged transgression is real, it's not the role of vigilante citizens to take the law into their own hands.
There would be no contact information to hand over without antifa types going through the process of doxxing him. Usually it's a distributed operation, where various people collect small bits of information and share, putting them together to discover the ID.

There would be no non-public way to discover his real information, thus no way to privately give it over to the police. Would it have been better had Vic never been ID'd?

What if Vic had done all these things, but not the criminal vandalism? Would you oppose the outing of an overt, but 100% lawful, white nationalist that advocates violence?
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Old 17th September 2020, 11:17 AM   #1558
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't know if this is going to broaden the discussion too much and if it does we can ask for a threadspin off and I won't get offended.

The whole "Well it's public information, all I'm doing it putting it all in one place LOL my hands are clean not my fault if anything happens" doesn't sit well with me.

It's like if I I'm a well known anti-Left Hander and I start a website that just lists (using all hypothetically "publically available") info that correlates to the homes of Left Handers, the hours they are home, and the location of the nearest gravel quarry where you could hide and body and expect nobody to notice or make any assumptions.

If Person A who is well known, well established, and admitted Anti-Group-B starts making a list about Group B... we can fill in the blanks here people.
Agreed. Even if it's publicly available information, there's a nuance in there where aggregating and publishing that information can be a fairly clear threat.

IIRC a whole back (maybe early 2016?) there was a government official in a district who published the names and addresses of everyone in his district who had donated campaign funds to Trump. He published it with some comment about "Here are all the people who helped get Trump elected" or something similar. And yes, technically the donation information is public information. But having an official publish it about people in his own district, who he is supposed to be representing, and calling out those who voted for the other party candidate... that left a terribly bad taste in my mouth.
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Old 17th September 2020, 11:17 AM   #1559
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't know if this is going to broaden the discussion too much and if it does we can ask for a threadspin off and I won't get offended.

The whole "Well it's public information, all I'm doing it putting it all in one place LOL my hands are clean not my fault if anything happens" doesn't sit well with me.

It's like if I I'm a well known anti-Left Hander and I start a website that just lists (using all hypothetically "publically available") info that correlates to the homes of Left Handers, the hours they are home, and the location of the nearest gravel quarry where you could hide and body and expect nobody to notice or make any assumptions.

If Person A who is well known, well established, and admitted Anti-Group-B starts making a list about Group B... we can fill in the blanks here people.
Ignoring the hyperbole of your example, it seems disingenuous to short change the abilities of these people to find victims. Sorry, but if the limiting factor of a guy driving hours in his car, bringing a gun to confront/kill someone in their home is an Andy Ngo post of the publicly available information, that post is not the issue. If these people can find your home address, where you work and form groups to harass you, they can damn well find the info that he does.

"Make it harder for them" should not but something that they can overcome by using google for 5 minutes more.
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Old 17th September 2020, 11:19 AM   #1560
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There would be no contact information to hand over without antifa types going through the process of doxxing him. Usually it's a distributed operation, where various people collect small bits of information and share, putting them together to discover the ID.

There would be no non-public way to discover his real information, thus no way to privately give it over to the police. Would it have been better had Vic never been ID'd?

What if Vic had done all these things, but not the criminal vandalism? Would you oppose the outing of an overt, but 100% lawful, white nationalist that advocates violence?
I'm not going to budge on this. If people want to investigate and share among a small group of people in order to identify someone, and then hand that information over to the authorities, I'm not going to complain. But publishing it to the entire world on the internet is something that I 100% do not approve of, no matter the situation.

I would've thought this was pretty clear by now: I have no tolerance for vigilantism.
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