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Tags donald trump , Mueller investigation , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , William Barr

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Old 12th February 2020, 09:53 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You're drowning in a rip-tide. Two lifeguards spot you. One starts sprinting toward you (In slow-mo while the theme song from Baywatch plays I'm assuming) but when he reaches the water's edge decides he'd rather let you drown. That's Susan Collins.

The other one starts to turn toward you, but when they reach the water's edge they remember they don't know how to swim and have to stand there and watch you drown. That's Nancy Pelosi.
If I may correct your analogy, since a lifeguard who can't swim is pretty silly, he tries his best to reach you but the tide takes you too far and he can't reach you before you drown. That's Nancy Pelosi.

Would you not rather have the one who tried, just in case they succeed?
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Old 12th February 2020, 09:53 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No, it's failing to remove him form office that is derelict. Impeaching him has turned out to be a waste of time that has also contributed to winning the next election and keeping him in office. Impeachment, at least at the moment, appears to have been worse than a waste of time.
Oh noes but we're just not allowed to say that even though... I mean it didn't remove him from office and made his popularity go up.

People keep acting like the Impeachment worked and we're pretending it didn't and not the other way around.
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Old 12th February 2020, 09:54 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If I may correct your analogy, since a lifeguard who can't swim is pretty silly, he tries his best to reach you but the tide takes you too far and he can't reach you before you drown. That's Nancy Pelosi.

Would you not rather have the one who tried, just in case they succeed?
If she tries her best every time and still doesn't succeed it in ever saving a drowning person, at a certain point you just stop paying her to be a lifeguard, fault or no fault, good intentions or bad.
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Old 12th February 2020, 09:54 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No, it's failing to remove him form office that is derelict. Impeaching him has turned out to be a waste of time that has also contributed to winning the next election and keeping him in office. Impeachment, at least at the moment, appears to have been worse than a waste of time.
Can someone explain why it contributes to his re-election?
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Old 12th February 2020, 09:56 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If she tries her best every time and still doesn't succeed it in ever saving a drowning person, at a certain point you just stop paying her to be a lifeguard, fault or no fault, good intentions or bad.
So what's the solution? **** lifeguards?

I'm sorry but I can't subscribe to your defeatist idea, here. One's got to stand for something even if others don't.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:01 AM   #366
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The believe that the incomplete Impeachment has made a Trump re-election more likely doesn't seem to be founded on much.
Plenty of voters believe that Washington is broken, and the fact that a legitimate Impeachment can get shut down along party lines is very much in line with this.
Only the voters who want the Federal Government to stay paralysed will think that the Impeachment was a failure.
The others will consider it a rallying cry to flip the Senate.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:05 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No, it's failing to remove him form office that is derelict. Impeaching him has turned out to be a waste of time that has also contributed to winning the next election and keeping him in office. Impeachment, at least at the moment, appears to have been worse than a waste of time.
Nonsense. Impeachment is what the electorate wanted and the electorate will make the Senate pay the price for the sham trial they held to protect Trump.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:09 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Nonsense. Impeachment is what the electorate wanted and the electorate will make the Senate pay the price for the sham trial they held to protect Trump.
Careful now. That's almost a definitive claim with a fixed specific point in time instead of the constantly being pushed back floating "at some point in the future that's never now something is going to happen we're going to start winning."

The Republicans keep control of the Senate in 2020, which is statistically likely to happen, what happens then?

At what point do we admit what we are doing is not working?
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:11 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So what's the solution? **** lifeguards?

I'm sorry but I can't subscribe to your defeatist idea, here. One's got to stand for something even if others don't.
I'll never understand why "X is going to happen" is defeatist but "X is going to happen but it's vitally important to pretend it's not and fight to the end" is not.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:13 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Careful now. That's almost a definitive claim with a fixed specific point in time instead of the constantly being pushed back floating "at some point in the future that's never now something is going to happen."

The Republicans keep control of the Senate in 2020, which is statistically likely to happen, what happens then?

At what point do we admit what we are doing is not working?
The other option of non-impeachment definitely wouldn't have worked as it would have demotivated the electorate to vote at all in the next election. The only way Republicans win is to cheat at this point, and that's exactly what they are doing. All we can do is try to get enough people to vote to overcome it.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:14 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'll never understand why "X is going to happen" is defeatist but "X is going to happen but it's vitally important to pretend it's not and fight to the end" is not.
Considering the definition of the word "defeatist", I would think that is obvious. Plus X is going to happen IF WE DO NOTHING. At least if you try to do something about it, the odds are marginally better.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:20 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Can someone explain why it contributes to his re-election?
Because it raised his popularity as measured by his approval rating. This has been said multiple times.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:22 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Because it raised his popularity as measured by his approval rating. This has been said multiple times.
He's still very unpopular and we don't know if the ratings went up because of impeachment.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:25 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Nonsense. Impeachment is what the electorate wanted and the electorate will make the Senate pay the price for the sham trial they held to protect Trump.
Sorry, you appear to be reading polls from another planet. Even those polls that showed a slim majority didn't show enough to be outside the margin of error. And seriously, do you think the Senators that voted against removal from office live in the state where the people who wanted Trump removed live? That's simply deranged if you think that.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/impeachment-polls/

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Old 12th February 2020, 10:25 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
He's still very unpopular and we don't know if the ratings went up because of impeachment.
*Sighs*

"This strengthened Trump."
"No it didn't, show me some evidence that it did."
"Here."
"Oh that don't count."
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:26 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Sighs*

"This strengthened Trump."
"No it didn't, show me some evidence that it did."
"Here."
"Oh that don't count."
Ken's just saying that a causal link has to be established.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:31 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ken's just saying that a causal link has to be established.
Which is true of quite a few polls. Pointing it out here seems to be major head in sand behavior.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:32 AM   #378
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The 538 link does not support the allegation that impeachment strengthened Trump's support.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:34 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The 538 link does not support the allegation that impeachment strengthened Trump's support.
FFS. It supports what I said about the electorate not supporting his removal from office.
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Old 12th February 2020, 11:07 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Quote:
Can someone explain why it contributes to his re-election?
Because it raised his popularity as measured by his approval rating. This has been said multiple times.
True, his approval rating has gone up slightly in some polling. And, Trump has supposedly used the impeachment proceedings as a way to generate additional campaign contributions.

https://time.com/5744415/trump-campa...ook-advantage/

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...wmakers-110770

However, that doesn't necessarily mean the impeachment was a mistake, for a couple of reasons:

- It may have caused Trump supporters to rally around the racist, but it also may help energize Democrats as well. (Many democrats also saw an increase in fundraising during the impeachment proceedings)

- Its hard to know how the alternative might have gone. Ok, so Trump's approval ratings ticked up by a little bit. If they didn't impeach, it may still have gone up. Or it may have stayed the same.

- It may have a secondary benefit on some of the congressional races. Senators like Collins (who was already dealing with low approval ratings) now has the stigma of her "Trump learned a lesson. He didn't? My Mistake". This may play a part in her 2020 senate race.

Overall, I don't think we can say whether there was any net benefit or harm, and we probably won't for some time. Trump's approval ratings increased in some polls, but there is no guarantee that will be sustained. And it should be noted that many polls showing increase in his approval ratings are national, which doesn't mean he benefited at all in battleground states like Florida or Wisc. (For example, his approval rating in Michigan was 42% last summer. After impeachment, his approval is... 42%.) And Trump may have 'survived' impeachment with his support base intact, but between Trump's questionable actions and the possibility of future revelations, he may still get damaged.

https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump-2/
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Old 12th February 2020, 11:10 AM   #381
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https://americanindependent.com/new-...2020-election/

The democratic base is energized.
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Old 12th February 2020, 02:31 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If she tries her best every time and still doesn't succeed it in ever saving a drowning person, at a certain point you just stop paying her to be a lifeguard, fault or no fault, good intentions or bad.
Circumstances beyond a superior lifeguard's control - not the fault of the lifeguard - could prevent a superior lifeguard from saving a person.


And your "every time" condition doesn't really apply to impeachment, as there has been only impeachment of trump.
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Old 12th February 2020, 03:46 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
https://americanindependent.com/new-...2020-election/

The democratic base is energized.
From the link:

Quote:
Trump also claimed 40,000 to 50,000 had shown up to support him, though the venue capacity was less than 12,000 people.
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Old 12th February 2020, 04:06 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And right now I don't care about anything that isn't a practical difference.
And the outcome of someone's actions is the only valid metric by which to determine whether or not they're "weak"?
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Old 12th February 2020, 04:10 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
However, that doesn't necessarily mean the impeachment was a mistake, for a couple of reasons:

- It may have caused Trump supporters to rally around the racist, but it also may help energize Democrats as well. (Many democrats also saw an increase in fundraising during the impeachment proceedings)

- Its hard to know how the alternative might have gone. Ok, so Trump's approval ratings ticked up by a little bit. If they didn't impeach, it may still have gone up. Or it may have stayed the same.

- It may have a secondary benefit on some of the congressional races. Senators like Collins (who was already dealing with low approval ratings) now has the stigma of her "Trump learned a lesson. He didn't? My Mistake". This may play a part in her 2020 senate race.
I also wonder if it's possible (not necessarily probable, Joe, don't jump on this) that the new stuff a further-emboldened Trump is doing might end up having negative consequences for him.
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Old 12th February 2020, 04:11 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If I may correct your analogy, since a lifeguard who can't swim is pretty silly, he tries his best to reach you but the tide takes you too far and he can't reach you before you drown. That's Nancy Pelosi.

Would you not rather have the one who tried, just in case they succeed?
I'd rather have the one who tried. But why does removing me from the water require one hundred politicians to take a vote?
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Old 12th February 2020, 04:38 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If Susan Collins is a weakling so is Nancy Pelosi. They've both had the same actual level of effect on anything Trump has done and the difference between Collin's 'Pretend I want to stop him even though I know in the end I don't" and Pelosi' "Pretend I can stop him even though I know in the end I can't" is meaningless on any practical level.

Someone once referred to Susan Collins as someone who always has to look at the menu for a half hour before always deciding to eat what Mitch McConnell is having. Nancy Pelosi is someone who looks at the menu, knows immediately what she wants, orders it, but realizes after the fact that Mitch McConnell already ordered for the whole table and she still has to eat it. But sometime she can sarcastically clap at him.

Mitch McConnell is still picking both women's meals in both metaphors. The only difference is how much they don't like it and Mitch McConnell don't care.

It isn't right to hold it against people when they don't use a power they don't have; it is right to hold it against people when they don't use a power they do have.

And because it will come up, there are more kinds of weakness than one. Pelosi was not strong enough politically to hold Trump to more account (she's not 'weak' there by any reasonable metric), where Collins is weak personally, lacking the courage to do what is obviously morally and ethically right while also being the best thing for the country and her constituents.
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Old 12th February 2020, 04:39 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'd rather have the one who tried. But why does removing me from the water require one hundred politicians to take a vote?
Because some of populace doesn't take Second Amendment solutions lightly.
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Old 14th February 2020, 01:55 PM   #389
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Putting this here since Flynn was one of the earlier indictments related to Mueller:

https://www.businessinsider.com/barr...nn-case-2020-2
Attorney General William Barr assigned a prosecutor to review the criminal case against Michael Flynn...The unusual move is likely to fuel further speculation of political interference in Department of Justice cases.

So, are we looking at Roger Stone: The sequel?
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:26 PM   #390
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Because it's relevant here...

Mueller Papers: Another 1,400 Pages Released

Some highlights that have already been picked out...

Quote:
"RNC indicated they knew timing of upcoming WIKI releases"...pg 23.

"Sessions: Hopefully we can get the emails...Don Jr. had more contacts with Russian types..." pg 21

"Gates said, based on prior business dealings, Kushner had the best China contacts..." pg 18
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Old 15th February 2020, 01:58 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It isn't right to hold it against people when they don't use a power they don't have; it is right to hold it against people when they don't use a power they do have.

And because it will come up, there are more kinds of weakness than one. Pelosi was not strong enough politically to hold Trump to more account (she's not 'weak' there by any reasonable metric), where Collins is weak personally, lacking the courage to do what is obviously morally and ethically right while also being the best thing for the country and her constituents.
Agree.

Susan Collins is a gutless wonder.. all show and no substance. She claims to have the backs of women everywhere and 100% supports their rights not have bunch old white god-bothering men dictate to them what happens with their bodies, yet she voted Drunky McRapeface, an accused rapist, drunkard and a person KNOWN to want to overturn Roe v Wade, to the SCOTUS.

A rank coward is what she is... and that Murkowski woman is not far behind her.
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Old 5th March 2020, 04:29 PM   #392
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Quote:
Questioning Barr's 'credibility', federal judge requests unredacted Mueller Report

The Department of Justice has been ordered to turn over an unredacted copy of the Mueller report by 30 March, so a judge can assess what can be further released publicly.

The ruling of accuses the attorney general,*William Barr, of misrepresenting the findings of the report before handing it over to Congress.

The court decision is the result of a BuzzFeed News lawsuit seeling to un-redact the report, which details special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential elections.

Mueller report: justice department ordered to turn over unredacted copy – live

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...y_to_clipboard
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Old 9th March 2020, 04:42 PM   #393
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Fox mentioned this but didn't think it was a big problem. There will be an appeal and another court will overrule the decision.
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Old 10th March 2020, 02:17 PM   #394
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Another court loss for Trump:

From: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...tion-case.html
On Tuesday, a panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit issued a 2–1 decision upholding a lower-court ruling that ordered the Department of Justice turn over to Congress the parts of the Mueller report that have until now remained secret.

Apparently the one dissenting judge was one that was nominated by Trump.
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Old 30th May 2020, 01:37 AM   #395
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Another batch of documents released
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Old 30th May 2020, 03:42 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If I may correct your analogy, since a lifeguard who can't swim is pretty silly, he tries his best to reach you but the tide takes you too far and he can't reach you before you drown. That's Nancy Pelosi.

Would you not rather have the one who tried, just in case they succeed?
Being an analogy to politicians, I think the silliness of a lifeguard who can't swim actually works well here. Whether you think it applies to Pelosi is a separate issue.
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Old 11th June 2020, 02:02 PM   #397
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After reading the unredacted Mueller report, a judge has ordered the DoJ to appear in court in order to explain the reasoning behind certain of the redactions
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Old 11th June 2020, 02:46 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I expected this eventually. Good to see.
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Old 11th June 2020, 03:16 PM   #399
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It would be nice but Barr won't show nor will he allow anyone else to show. It would be nice if the judge then simply released the un-redacted report.

It might shut up Lindsay Graham who this morning in committee is still repeating the CT that the FBI was in cahoots with Clinton to get Trump.

I have a great idea, release it near the end of Oct.
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Old 11th June 2020, 03:26 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I have a great idea, release it near the end of Oct.
That would be fitting. Trump deserves to go down in flames -- perhaps more than anyone else in American political history.
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