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Tags protest incidents , protest issues , Seattle incidents

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Old 20th July 2020, 06:22 AM   #41
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then as a skeptic, I recommend you reject your own claim until you have evidence to support it.
I have no evidence that you are a skeptic. And must reject your premise
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Old 20th July 2020, 06:22 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Have they asked for federal assistance if they lack the means?
I didn't mean me.
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Old 20th July 2020, 06:24 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Have they asked for federal assistance if they lack the means?
I don't presume either way.
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Old 20th July 2020, 06:35 AM   #44
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I seem to recall from history class that some American protesters became rather rowdy in the year 1775. Perhaps the government at the time would have profited from a more lenient approach than the one they chose?
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:04 AM   #45
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Reason had a good headline today saying feds send in outside agitators.

There could be a case that a softer touch reduces rioting more than other strategies.
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:07 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Reason had a good headline today saying feds send in outside agitators.

There could be a case that a softer touch reduces rioting more than other strategies.


At least in Portland, is there really an argument that they are being too lenient? What's really left for the Portland cops and the feds on the ground to do? They are already deploying most of the non-lethal tools at their disposal. Seems pretty well understood by the protesters that they are going to get gassed and beaten, yet they still come.

Short of declaring some sort of martial law and curfew, mass arrests, or using lethal force, what else can the cops do to beat the city into submission?

Edit: I haven't spent much time on Reason in a few years. The comments section are quite interesting. Seems that a few honest-to-god libertarians are disgusted by the many fair-weather libertarians that have outed themselves as conservative authoritarians over the course of the Trump years and hastily abandoned Libertarian principles. Bob, as our resident Libertarian-ish person, have you observed any such Libertarian inter-ideology anguish?
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:22 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Who said it's acceptable?
At a minimum, those involved seem to think it's a legitimate form of protest.
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:25 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
At least in Portland, is there really an argument that they are being too lenient? What's really left for the Portland cops and the feds on the ground to do? They are already deploying most of the non-lethal tools at their disposal. Seems pretty well understood by the protesters that they are going to get gassed and beaten, yet they still come.

Short of declaring some sort of martial law and curfew, mass arrests, or using lethal force, what else can the cops do to beat the city into submission?

Edit: I haven't spent much time on Reason in a few years. The comments section are quite interesting. Seems that a few honest-to-god libertarians are disgusted by the many fair-weather libertarians that have outed themselves as conservative authoritarians over the course of the Trump years and hastily abandoned Libertarian principles. Bob, as our resident Libertarian-ish person, have you observed any such Libertarian inter-ideology anguish?
Perhaps the residents of Portland should be asked what they prefer.
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:34 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't think its ok. I don't think you're going to find many on the left that thinks it is ok. The problem is hooligans too often co-opt protests.
I remember when I learned this, I was a teenager in the 80s.

The example then was a bunch of guys who were arrested for throwing molotov cocktails at police in a United riot, a few weeks after being arrested for throwing molotov cocktails at police in a City riot.

They had no real agenda or loyalty, just needed an excuse to get into a crowd fight where they're less likely to be personally identified.

We *have* seen a few false flags, though, performing minor vandalism, such as MAGAs spraypainting BLM slogans in weird places to embarrass protest supporters. But I haven't seen anything major along those lines so far.
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:34 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Strangely enough, the cities that didn't take an iron fist approach to breaches of public order have been the most successful in keeping things peaceful.

Many major cities in the US had outbreaks of protests that turned into riots in the immediate aftermath of the George Floyd murder.

Now, only a select few are still having ongoing, if not escalating, bouts of public disorder and opportunistic looting. It should be noted that these cities have also seen some of the most robust police responses since day 1.

Doing nothing, or using a very light touch, is often the best tactic if the goal is reducing violence or property damage. Sending out the riot cops to gas and beat crowds practically guarantees continued unrest.

Portland has had 50+ days of continuous unrest in the streets. The cops are out in full force, using everything short of just opening fire with lethal weapons into the crowd. It's a real-time natural experiment in the effectiveness of jack-boot tactics to quell riots and is failing miserably.
Are you condoning this?

What do you think of the people in the the video?
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:38 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Are you condoning this?

What do you think of the people in the the video?
What do I think of them?

I don't form opinions of people based on a few seconds of video. I'm bigger than that.
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:39 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Who said it's acceptable?
Who has clearly and unequivocally condemned it? The mayor of Seattle? Anyone who isn't a republican?
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:39 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I wish that they understood that this sort of thing helps Donald Trump.
My impression is that some people aren't worried about that, because they're too cynical on two levels:

* they believe trump will steal the election no matter what the public votes (Clinton got the majority in the last election, it didn't matter)

* they believe Biden will be just as indifferent to their exclusion from the system (Republicans and Democrats have been in power all their lives and built everything we see, why would the next president being a Democrat matter?)

If the system's gonna crush you, might as well get a working toaster to ride it out.
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:41 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What do I think of them?

I don't form opinions of people based on a few seconds of video. I'm bigger than that.
See the OP
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:41 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
See the OP
I saw the video. I don't form judgements of people based on so little.
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:41 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Martin Luther King, Jr
Certain conditions continue to exist in our society, which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots. But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation’s summers of riots are caused by our nation’s winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention
TL;DR riots are a problem, but if you're getting riots, you've got bigger problems.
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:46 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Who has clearly and unequivocally condemned it? The mayor of Seattle? Anyone who isn't a republican?
You're asking for evidence of unacceptance to prove acceptance? How does that work?
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:59 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You're asking for evidence of unacceptance to prove acceptance? How does that work?
Well I've certainly seen a lot of signs at these protests claiming that "Silence is Violence" (or complicity). So according to such logic, not publicly condemning something is equivalent to being complicit in it.
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Old 20th July 2020, 09:03 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
They sometimes do it because their local sports team won the championship. I'm not sure if that qualifies as "content", but it is certainly not discontent.
I agree.

One thing that was baffling to some people (not to me) about the Vancouver riots, which were triggered by the Canucks losing (1994) and the Canucks winning (2011), respectively, was that so many of the looters and vandals were just middle class asshats who didn't even live here.

Basically dudes sitting at home in the suburbs turn on the TV and see a huge crowd is getting ugly, grab their riot go-bag, jump on the SkyTrain and get off at Granville.

In the 2011 riot, the judges were hearing defenses like, "I can't get convicted for vandalism, it might impact my medical residency assignment yer honour. Also, my flight to Edmonton leaves in an hour can we move this along please?"
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Old 20th July 2020, 09:07 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Are you condoning this?

What do you think of the people in the the video?
No. But as others have already posted, riots and opportunistic crime are unintended and predictable consequences of a complete breakdown of the social contract that has been precipitated by police brutality and impunity.

It sucks that people are rioting and looting. I don't see this as a legitimate reason to allow the cops to violently suppress a genuine uprising against their tyrannical authority.

The fact that looting and opportunistic crime is worse in cities where the cops are going hog-wild with violence, and that these cops have no plans to change their tactics, shows that cops don't care about the looting either.
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Old 20th July 2020, 09:21 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Well I've certainly seen a lot of signs at these protests claiming that "Silence is Violence" (or complicity). So according to such logic, not publicly condemning something is equivalent to being complicit in it.
Have you or have you not seen anyone claim that looting is acceptable?
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Old 20th July 2020, 09:26 AM   #62
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If you want to see what's going to happen to Minneapolis, Portland, San Francisco and Seattle over the next few years, just look at what happened to Baltimore after the Freddie Gray riots. In 2014, Baltimore had 211 murders. In 2015? 344 (and it's been 300+ ever since). And that kind of outcome might optimistic this time; Baltimore did not dramatically defund its police department.

Black lives matter only when they are being snuffed out by a cop; when it's non-cops nobody cares.
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Old 20th July 2020, 09:29 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Why does the city government allow this? Where are the police? How on earth can Seattle be considering getting rid of half of its police force at a time like this?
Because it can. The simple fact is the vast majority of calls that police respond to are not criminal in nature. And people are fed up with the police out of control. We've seen police gun down innocent people in broad daylight. We've seen police officers acting like out of control linebackers which resulted in brain damage and the need for full time care fo the rest of a young man's life. We saw a police officer punch a 16 year old girl. We saw an off duty officer pull s gun on a motorcyclist and not fired.

How else are they to be held accountable?
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Old 20th July 2020, 09:56 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Because it can. The simple fact is the vast majority of calls that police respond to are not criminal in nature. And people are fed up with the police out of control. We've seen police gun down innocent people in broad daylight. We've seen police officers acting like out of control linebackers which resulted in brain damage and the need for full time care fo the rest of a young man's life. We saw a police officer punch a 16 year old girl. We saw an off duty officer pull s gun on a motorcyclist and not fired.

How else are they to be held accountable?
If the murder rate went up in Seattle by, say, 20% after this and persisted like Baltimore for (5 years so far), would that be a sign that this hadn't been worth it? I'm wondering what would the downside have to look like for you to agree with Brainster that the negatives outweigh the positives?
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Old 20th July 2020, 10:46 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If the murder rate went up in Seattle by, say, 20% after this and persisted like Baltimore for (5 years so far), would that be a sign that this hadn't been worth it? I'm wondering what would the downside have to look like for you to agree with Brainster that the negatives outweigh the positives?
What city would you use as a control? I would argue that crime rate is more closely related to factors like the local economy than policing.

And by the same logic, what metrics would you use to admit that it was a success? A reduction in use of force complaints?
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Old 20th July 2020, 11:08 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
What city would you use as a control? I would argue that crime rate is more closely related to factors like the local economy than policing.
We never get controls. Are you arguing that there is never any way to tell whether any social policy has been good, indifferent, or entirely counter productive?

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
And by the same logic, what metrics would you use to admit that it was a success? A reduction in use of force complaints?
For sure. If they can reduce the complaints without crime going up and without vastly increasing the budget, then that sounds pretty good to me.
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Old 20th July 2020, 11:15 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Black lives matter only when they are being snuffed out by a cop; when it's non-cops nobody cares.
Conservatives who refuse to address the underlying socio-economic issues that lead to high crime rates certainly don’t.
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Old 20th July 2020, 11:16 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
What city would you use as a control? I would argue that crime rate is more closely related to factors like the local economy than policing.
I am unaware of any local economic changes in Baltimore between 2014 and 2015 that would account for a 63% increase in homicides. And this is not cherry picking; in the years before 2014, the number of homicides was consistently in the 200-230 range, in the years after it has been consistently in the 300-350 range.

Quote:
And by the same logic, what metrics would you use to admit that it was a success? A reduction in use of force complaints?
By that metric Baltimore has been a shining example to us all. Use of force complaints have dropped steadily since the staggering 89 citizen complaints in 2014 to 43 complaints in 2019. So 46 fewer people complaining about being roughed up, versus 130 more people being killed. Seems like a pretty poor trade-off to me.
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Old 20th July 2020, 11:47 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Conservatives who refuse to address the underlying socio-economic issues that lead to high crime rates certainly don’t.
Understood, but at what level of government should people be focusing on? Protesting towards addressing the local police force's use of violence is direct. Addressing socio-economic issues through protest doesn't seem focused enough to accomplish anything.

It leads to something like a chicken or egg argument, where conservatives seem more focused on one aspect of what can be done to fix it and liberals on the other. I am sure there is a good amount of study on methods that work, but obviously this isn't some simple question or else these solutions would be more widespread.

I don't like to make simple observations as if they explain anything besides the obvious, but cities tend to skew liberal. It is not conservatives that are stopping the implementation of plans to address this stuff. If you live in a Democrat controlled state, with a governor, senators, mayors, assemblymen all majority Democrat, the finger pointing about ideological roadblocks by Republicans seem less true.
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Old 20th July 2020, 01:14 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
If you want to see what's going to happen to Minneapolis, Portland, San Francisco and Seattle over the next few years, just look at what happened to Baltimore after the Freddie Gray riots. In 2014, Baltimore had 211 murders. In 2015? 344 (and it's been 300+ ever since). And that kind of outcome might optimistic this time; Baltimore did not dramatically defund its police department.

Black lives matter only when they are being snuffed out by a cop; when it's non-cops nobody cares.
Supposedly, cops can control themselves and are supposed to be the reach of the law, not criminals themselves.
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Old 20th July 2020, 01:17 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If the murder rate went up in Seattle by, say, 20% after this and persisted like Baltimore for (5 years so far), would that be a sign that this hadn't been worth it? I'm wondering what would the downside have to look like for you to agree with Brainster that the negatives outweigh the positives?
I find that highly unlikely. The differences between Baltimore and Seattle are vastly different. There is an issue on the West Coast with Antifa.....and that is the problem that seems to infect the protests. But it isn't a general crime problem. The biggest problem Seattle has been facing over the last 2 decades has been a growing unaffordability of housing...which leads to a growing homeless problem.
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Old 20th July 2020, 01:55 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Why does the city government allow this? Where are the police? How on earth can Seattle be considering getting rid of half of its police force at a time like this?
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Great idea. Let's defund the fire department too. From now on, just let fires burn themselves out. Why fight a fire when you can just let the whole city burn to the ground.
Actual thought experiment: if a city's fire department had way more kit than they could possibly need, and defunding them meant more money to other things like smoke detectors in peoples' homes, awareness campaigns on fire safety and prevention, and more fire hydrants around the city, then yes, I'd be all for defunding the FD in a city plagued by fire.

Likewise, if a city's police department has so much riot gear and guns it's more like an irregular army battalion than a police force, and defunding them means more money to ambulance personell to deal with mentally ill people who are a threat to themselves or others, social workers, and all sorts of preventive campaigns and measures, I'm all for it.

Here in Norway, we've had a debate on how it's unfortunate that if a person needs to be involuntarily committed to a psychiatric facility, it's only the police that can pick them up from their home, meaning a person can be perfectly innocent and only in need of psychiatric help, but their friends and neighbours will still see them be brought away by policemen in handcuffs. I actually honestly do not remember what came of that, but either way, allowing actual paramedics or nurses deal with mentally or physical ill people is one good way to hand police duties over to other agencies, without making society less safe.
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Old 20th July 2020, 01:56 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
They might not be Antifa. In the early days of the protests white-power extremists were arranging lootings and violence to ensure that protesting would be associated with crime.
It's always possible they're not Antifa but Antifa has a well-established history of agitating in Portland. They were causing problems in 2018 and 2019. There is no doubt that far left and far right groups are the main source for the violence and criminal behavior taking place.

I think the point made earlier about the graffiti being sprayed is not something people just interested in material gain (as in looting) would take the time to do.
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Old 20th July 2020, 01:58 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Also, in some areas you already have gangs hitting stores like this. Either way, thugs taking advantage of civil unrest to loot stores and do things they otherwise wouldn't get away with isn't exactly uncommon.
Which might be a good reason to cool it with the protesting. Portlandia is on something like 55 consecutive days and nights of protests. Not saying they don't have the right to continue protesting, but they need to consider whether it's helping or hurting the cause they claim to be supporting.
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Old 20th July 2020, 01:59 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/stat...88892471599104



I'm a loyal Democrat but I don't understand why some people on the left seem to think that this sort of thing is acceptable. Nor why local politicians like mayors would allow their cities to be destroyed like this.

This is obviously not a "peaceful protest".

It's not "political speech" it's a crime.
Graffiti is a crime, yes.

Here is the solution:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Krud-Kut...R226/205552884
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Old 20th July 2020, 02:04 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I am unaware of any local economic changes in Baltimore between 2014 and 2015 that would account for a 63% increase in homicides. And this is not cherry picking; in the years before 2014, the number of homicides was consistently in the 200-230 range, in the years after it has been consistently in the 300-350 range.



By that metric Baltimore has been a shining example to us all. Use of force complaints have dropped steadily since the staggering 89 citizen complaints in 2014 to 43 complaints in 2019. So 46 fewer people complaining about being roughed up, versus 130 more people being killed. Seems like a pretty poor trade-off to me.
Correlation vs causation error.
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Old 20th July 2020, 02:06 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Graffiti is a crime, yes.

Here is the solution:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Krud-Kut...R226/205552884
Doesn't work for ****.
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Old 20th July 2020, 02:20 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
We never get controls. Are you arguing that there is never any way to tell whether any social policy has been good, indifferent, or entirely counter productive?
I'm saying that if you want to science it, this is how it do. "What if a number is X" doesn't mean much by itself, and certainly isn't enough to call a policy evidence-based.

In fact, we've already gotten ahead of ourselves. Why compare Seattle to Baltimore in the first place? Why even mention Baltimore in the first place? It's not in any of the linked news articles. As far as I can tell Brainster's just saying BUT BUT BALTIMORE because he likes how the numbers went up there.
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Old 20th July 2020, 04:51 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Have you or have you not seen anyone claim that looting is acceptable?
Yes. There are people taking that position.

https://news.yahoo.com/black-lives-m...164500490.html

Quote:
A troublingly large line-up of public intellectuals are again providing justifications for violent protest. Wellesley College assistant professor of African studies Kellie Carter Jackson recently wrote, “Violence disrupts the status quo and the possibility of returning to business as usual. . . . The American Revolution was won with violence. The French Revolution was won with violence. The Haitian Revolution was won with violence. The Civil War was won with violence. A revolution in today’s terms would mean that these nationwide rebellions lead to black people being able to access and exercise the fullness of their freedom and humanity.” Northeastern University associate professor of sociology Gordana Rabrenovic argues that the violence that African American people experience in their interactions with state-sponsored individuals and systems leads them to ask, “If they use violence, why shouldn’t we use violence?” American University provost Daniel J. Myers offers another justification: “Violent protest . . . advertise[s] the cause in a uniquely powerful way.” University of Pennsylvania professor, historian, and author of The Loud Minority Daniel Q. Gillion reports, “Nonviolent protest brings awareness to an issue; violent protest brings urgency to an issue. It forces individuals to pay attention to these important discussions of race relations.” Finally, New York Times columnist Charles Blow wrote: “Some of the people now breaking things and burning things and looting things are ironically participating in a storied American tradition. There has long been a penchant for destruction in this country, an insatiable bloodlust, that the country conveniently likes to forget. American violence is learned violence. It is the American way. . . . White riots have often, historically, targeted black people, while black people have rioted to protest injustice. On either side, racism is the root. And we have refused to sufficiently address it. Now, that chicken is coming home to roost.”

As I see it, revolutions are very rare, very hard to bring about, involve large bloodshed, and often are followed by new tyrannies. Moreover, there are prudent reasons to urge protestors not to resort to violence. According to Georgetown Professor Michael Kazin, “[N]on-leftists often see [the left] as a disruptive, lawless force. Violence tends to confirm that view.” Research shows that violent campaigns are less likely to succeed than nonviolent ones, and, conversely, those nonviolent movements have a higher success rate than violent ones.
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Old 20th July 2020, 04:57 PM   #80
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We might not have to wait for results to come in:

Minneapolis as of June 25:

Quote:
The increased number of violent crime in Minneapolis is stark. Year-to-date, there have been 27 homicides reported in Minneapolis, compared to the 15 total people killed this time last year.
Seattle:

According to this article, Seattle had 14 homicides as of June 20, compared to 28 for all of the prior year. Since then they've had 4 more according to the SPD.

New York:

Quote:
According to the NYPD, 178 homicides were reported in New York City so far this year. The statistics include information through June 30. This is a 21 percent increase from the number homicides reported during the same time last year when the city saw 147 homicides.
<snip>
The city has seen 528 shooting incidents and 636 shooting victims this year through June 30. This translates to a 46 percent increase in incidents and a 53 percent increase in shooting victims compared to the same time last year when the city reported 362 incidents and 415 victims.
And note this little detail:

Quote:
The increase comes on the heels of NYPD Commissioner Dermot Shea disbanding an anti-crime plainclothes unit that had focused on stopping people and searching for guns.
I cannot imagine why that might have resulted in an increase in shootings. I think we need to focus on root causes.

Portland:

Homicides were down for the first six months, but the shooting count took a sharp jump in early July:



Quote:
From July 1-13 last year, police responded to 11 shooting incidents. During the same time period this year, there have been 42 shootings, nearly four times as many.

“Five victims of homicide within 24 hours is staggering,” said Portland Police Chief Chuck Lovell, who added, “to the family and friends who lost a loved one, I send my sincere condolences.”

The homicide count for the year is up to 16 now. Eighteen-year-old Shai-India Harris was killed on the street in Southeast Portland's Lents neighborhood last Friday afternoon. Witnesses say she was standing outside a car and arguing with people inside when she was shot.
And, just like New York, there's a pretty obvious reason:

Quote:
The spike across Portland is happening as the police bureau recently ended its Gun Violence Reduction Team. The city council ordered it done, along with other cuts.
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