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Old 14th August 2020, 10:23 AM   #201
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Fine. You're right. It's a nascent fascist regime led by a wannabe fascist. Whew, that's a relief.
Please explain why it is nascent fascism and not other forms of authoritarianism.
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Old 14th August 2020, 10:31 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Please explain why it is nascent fascism and not other forms of authoritarianism.
I think it's the ism that best fits.
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Old 14th August 2020, 10:31 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Cool story.

Hey, isn't it odd that the DOJ is laying the ground works to call the nebulously defined "antifa" a foreign linked terrorist organization in order to authorize extraordinary domestic surveillance.
Oh, so now you're worried about extraordinary domestic surveillance? You didn't seem to care when such surveillance was abused against the Trump campaign.
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Old 14th August 2020, 10:34 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, so now you're worried about extraordinary domestic surveillance? You didn't seem to care when such surveillance was abused against the Trump campaign.
Whataboutism, more trolling.

If Trump did something wrong and other people also did something wrong, Trump still did something wrong.
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Old 14th August 2020, 10:36 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I think it's the ism that best fits.
To exalt something is to hold it in very high regard. Please demonstrate it is very high regard and not simply regard or high regard.
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Old 14th August 2020, 10:40 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, so now you're worried about extraordinary domestic surveillance? You didn't seem to care when such surveillance was abused against the Trump campaign.
Law enforcement surveilling a corrupt political official for engaging in corruption is not the same thing as law enforcement surveilling masses of individuals for expressing an opinion the leader of the government disagrees with.
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Old 14th August 2020, 10:42 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
To exalt something is to hold it in very high regard. Please demonstrate it is very high regard and not simply regard or high regard.
No thank you. If you wish to propose a better descriptor, be my guest.
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Old 14th August 2020, 10:46 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
No thank you. If you wish to propose a better descriptor, be my guest.
I think this definition is useful:

Quote:
In general, fascism can best be understood as bringing the methods of imperial rule in the colonies into the metropole.
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27/074.html

Militarized police are using the tactics of counter-insurgency on the streets of America, including the use of DHS goons that learned their trade brutalizing immigrants.
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Old 14th August 2020, 10:47 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again this is one of their core argumentative trolling tactics. Until it happens you're "just being dramatic" and when it happens well it's too late to do anything.
As opposed to your tactic: you're being dramatic, and when your doomsday scenario doesn't come to pass, you claim that it didn't because you were dramatic.

Make a testable prediction. I've made multiple ones, for example, Trump won't cancel the elections, he won't run for a third term, he won't try to stay in office if he loses the election (contesting in court like Bush v Gore is part of the election process). Where's yours?
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Old 14th August 2020, 10:48 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Law enforcement surveilling a corrupt political official
Carter Page wasn't a corrupt political official. You have failed.
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Old 14th August 2020, 10:48 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
As opposed to your tactic: you're being dramatic, and when your doomsday scenario doesn't come to pass, you claim that it didn't because you were dramatic.
I would like you to quote Joe doing the second part of what you claim he does.
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Old 14th August 2020, 10:49 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Carter Page wasn't a corrupt political official. You have failed.
This might blow your mind, but I'm actually not a huge fan of the national security apparatus.
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Old 14th August 2020, 10:49 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Whataboutism, more trolling.
This entire thread is trolling. Nothing in it is serious. Why should I take it seriously?
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Old 14th August 2020, 10:50 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This might blow your mind, but I'm actually not a huge fan of the national security apparatus.
And yet, you still tried to make excuses for it. I wonder why?

Oh, that's right: because they targeted the Trump campaign. So not only was what they did OK, but people can lie about what they did too in order to justify it.
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Old 14th August 2020, 11:40 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
No thank you. If you wish to propose a better descriptor, be my guest.
It is the criteria you used. You need to describe how it it is exalting rather than other levels of regard.

If I tell you something is extreme, but can't actually articulate why it is extreme rather than a lesser degree, I haven't defended my position.
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Old 14th August 2020, 11:50 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This entire thread is trolling. Nothing in it is serious. Why should I take it seriously?
See my sig line. Read it over and over until it sticks. Or don't and keep trolling.
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Old 14th August 2020, 05:16 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, so now you're worried about extraordinary domestic surveillance? You didn't seem to care when such surveillance was abused against the Trump campaign.
"Extraordinary" and "predicated" are not the same.
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Old 14th August 2020, 06:40 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This entire thread is trolling. Nothing in it is serious. Why should I take it seriously?
But you are taking it seriously.

Quote:
Oh, that's right: because they targeted the Trump campaign. So not only was what they did OK, but people can lie about what they did too in order to justify it.
Why should it bother you? Nothing in this thread is serious.
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Old 14th August 2020, 06:41 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is the criteria you used. You need to describe how it it is exalting rather than other levels of regard.

If I tell you something is extreme, but can't actually articulate why it is extreme rather than a lesser degree, I haven't defended my position.
When have you ever defended your position?
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Old 14th August 2020, 07:04 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
When have you ever defended your position?
When was the last time I had a position?
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Old 14th August 2020, 07:25 PM   #221
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Hey Siri, post the eye roll emoticon.
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Old 14th August 2020, 09:55 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again this is one of their core argumentative trolling tactics. Until it happens you're "just being dramatic" and when it happens well it's too late to do anything.
Yep, it's an argument from extreme position. Just like they say racism isn't racism unless there is lynching involved.
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Old 14th August 2020, 09:58 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This might blow your mind, but I'm actually not a huge fan of the national security apparatus.
I'm not a big fan, but Carter Page is corrupt. Also, these people in the Trump campaign weren't the target of surveillance, the government was spying on Russians. They just happened upon Trump's people committing crimes with the Russians.
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Old 15th August 2020, 05:31 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Hey Siri, post the eye roll emoticon.
... but your stream of non-communative posts here would be an exception.
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Old 18th August 2020, 06:25 AM   #225
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Er, I think I misinterpreted you carlitos. Sorry about that.

Anyway... It was incredibly thoughtful of the president to pull the brazen fascist move of trying to destroy the postal service, right in the middle of this lively discussion. A moment of clarity.
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Old 18th August 2020, 06:28 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Er, I think I misinterpreted you carlitos. Sorry about that.

Anyway... It was incredibly thoughtful of the president to pull the brazen fascist move of trying to destroy the postal service, right in the middle of this lively discussion. A moment of clarity.
If Trump doesn't actually plan to steal the election by challenging late ballots due to USPS sabotage, he's really shooting himself in the foot. Nothing motivates voters like the perception that their voting rights are in danger of being stripped. Democratic voters are in absolute panic to ensure their votes are cast early, and that energy is almost surely driving turnout to some degree.

Making these moves to undermine the post office and not actually following through on the scheme to steal the election seems like the least optimal strategy for Trump personally. Given Trump's tendency to waffle and float absurd trial balloons, I could easily see this being the case.
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Old 19th August 2020, 05:23 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Carter Page wasn't a corrupt political official. You have failed.
True. He was a corrupt campaign advisor. The senate report negates the right wing talking points that you're parroting here.
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Old 19th August 2020, 07:44 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
True. He was a corrupt campaign advisor. The senate report negates the right wing talking points that you're parroting here.
Who's Kevin Clinesmith? Never heard of him.
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Old 19th August 2020, 08:34 AM   #229
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I fear that a software bug is causing posts to bleed over from unrelated threads.



I posted the damning summary concerning Page in the Trump + Russia thread.

And for whatever other whataboutisms you may wish to post, there is probably a thread better suited.
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Old 19th August 2020, 08:37 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I fear that a software bug is causing posts to bleed over from unrelated threads.



I posted the damning summary concerning Page in the Trump + Russia thread.

And for whatever other whataboutisms you may wish to post, there is probably a thread better suited.
That's what you consider damning? Wow. That's just... pathetic.
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Old 19th August 2020, 08:46 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's what you consider damning? Wow. That's just... pathetic.
Obama, on the other hand, consuming Dijon mustard... Now that's damning!
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Old 19th August 2020, 08:53 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Obama, on the other hand, consuming Dijon mustard... Now that's damning!
I never said it was.
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Old 19th August 2020, 09:16 AM   #233
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I don't object to calling something fascist. And I don't object to the criteria provided. And I don't object to qualitative criteria. But you just can't list the criteria to make the point.

Two listed earlier had the criteria that the government "exalted" some ideas.

To exalt is to hold something in very high regard.

Then, a government that held those things in merely high regard is not fascist.

So how are we supposed to know what is high regard and what is very high regard?
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Old 19th August 2020, 09:42 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's what you consider damning? Wow. That's just... pathetic.
Yeah, I mean he didn't even murder anyone. And even if he did...
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Old 19th August 2020, 08:27 PM   #235
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Obama's speech was powerful and pertinent to this thread. He conveyed a somber, no nonsense sense of urgency, as the situation demands.
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Old 20th August 2020, 06:27 AM   #236
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From Obama's speech last night:

Originally Posted by Obama
You can give our democracy new meaning. You can take it to a better place. You’re the missing ingredient — the ones who will decide whether or not America becomes the country that fully lives up to its creed.

That work will continue long after this election. But any chance of success depends entirely on the outcome of this election. This administration has shown it will tear our democracy down if that’s what it takes to win.
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Old 20th August 2020, 08:21 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Obama's speech was powerful and pertinent to this thread. He conveyed a somber, no nonsense sense of urgency, as the situation demands.
so get out and vote, or by mail, if Dems are complacent like they were with hillary, they will have screwed America.
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Old 20th August 2020, 08:55 AM   #238
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I will vote by mail per usual, because that's the only way to vote here in WA.

Even though the outcome here is predetermined, it's uniquely important in US history that everyone who values democracy cast their vote. The margin of victory matters when a wannabe fascist is working at stealing the election.
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Old 20th August 2020, 10:29 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I never said it was.
I had hoped it wasn't required to spell out that I was supplying an extreme example of what the Right *at large* considered shocking where the opposition was concerned, as juxtaposed against what is fine and dandy for their guy to do.

Hypocrisy rubs my fur the wrong way.
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Old 20th August 2020, 06:34 PM   #240
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Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 31,292
Not only is it crucial to get Trump out, but we need more Republicans out of power because Trump is a result of their contempt of government.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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