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Old 2nd September 2020, 05:21 AM   #281
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It may still be at the transitional stage, but there's no better word for it.



Renegade Cut (Aug. 25, 2020): MAGA and Fascism
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I AGREE
Your quote has the same issue as a list earlier. If the criteria is ultra nationalist then things that are very nationalist is not it. How does one know it is ultra and not very?
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Old 2nd September 2020, 05:58 AM   #282
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There are two good reasons to label Trump a fascist, or nascent fascist if you prefer.

1. Applicability / accuracy.
2. Non verbosity. The word encapsulates right wing, racist, nationalist, violent, anti-democratic cult leader -- traits that Trump doesn't merely possess. He runs them up a flag pole.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 06:37 AM   #283
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
There are two good reasons to label Trump a fascist, or nascent fascist if you prefer.

1. Applicability / accuracy.
2. Non verbosity. The word encapsulates right wing, racist, nationalist, violent, anti-democratic cult leader -- traits that Trump doesn't merely possess. He runs them up a flag pole.
This seems to come down to you saying it is a good reason to use the term because it is the right term. I don't think many are saying to not use the term despite it being correct (though you do see that in the occasional op-ed).
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Old 2nd September 2020, 06:51 AM   #284
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I reject your hypothesis that this animal is a duck. Your argument rests on the simple assertion that its appearance, behavior and sound resemble that of historical animals which were (rightly or wrongly) also called ducks. What you have not done is provide a definition of "duck" specific enough to apply to this animal and therefore we cannot conclude that it is a duck.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 06:57 AM   #285
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
I reject your hypothesis that this animal is a duck. Your argument rests on the simple assertion that its appearance, behavior and sound resemble that of historical animals which were (rightly or wrongly) also called ducks. What you have not done is provide a definition of "duck" specific enough to apply to this animal and therefore we cannot conclude that it is a duck.
No one is disputing it is a duck. People are claiming it is a specific species of duck. And that is a harder exercise that requires a greater degree of precision.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 07:03 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
No one is disputing it is a duck. People are claiming it is a specific species of duck. And that is a harder exercise that requires a greater degree of precision.
I am. I'm disputing it's a duck. In fact I'm disputing ducks even exist. In fact I'm disputing that

- Ducks
- Me
- You
- The very concept of "disputing"
- This discussion
- That things can be proved

All exist. Please stop what you are doing and prove all of them to me before continuing the discussion.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 07:14 AM   #287
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I am. I'm disputing it's a duck. In fact I'm disputing ducks even exist. In fact I'm disputing that

- Ducks
- Me
- You
- The very concept of "disputing"
- This discussion
- That things can be proved

All exist. Please stop what you are doing and prove all of them to me before continuing the discussion.
This may come as a shock to you...I'm going to keep posting and not answering your question. I'm not required to do the latter to do the former.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 08:15 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
There are two good reasons to label Trump a fascist, or nascent fascist if you prefer.

1. Applicability / accuracy.
2. Non verbosity. The word encapsulates right wing, racist, nationalist, violent, anti-democratic cult leader -- traits that Trump doesn't merely possess. He runs them up a flag pole.
Did the Chinese sign off on that before you said it?

1) Dubious claim
2) Left Wing, sjw twits, anarchist, violent, antifa losers, traits endorsed by the Chinese apparently enabling whiney Leftie starbucks patrons who wallow in hypocrisy

But remember, BOTH sides suck.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 08:40 AM   #289
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I've only heard the "chinese" or "Chicoms" nonsense from nuts on Alex Jones' show. Is this idiocy migrating into mainstream right-wing media as well?
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Old 2nd September 2020, 08:46 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Did the Chinese sign off on that before you said it?

1) Dubious claim
2) Left Wing, sjw twits, anarchist, violent, antifa losers, traits endorsed by the Chinese apparently enabling whiney Leftie starbucks patrons who wallow in hypocrisy

But remember, BOTH sides suck.
I will not allow this defamation to stand. We all have limits, and enough is enough.

I ******* hate Swillbucks coffee.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 09:15 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I've only heard the "chinese" or "Chicoms" nonsense from nuts on Alex Jones' show. Is this idiocy migrating into mainstream right-wing media as well?
I'm not sure rockysmith counts as "mainstream right-wing media". I'm also not sure the increasingly insular and marginal population of this forum can be used to infer anything about mainstream anything.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 09:32 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not sure rockysmith counts as "mainstream right-wing media". I'm also not sure the increasingly insular and marginal population of this forum can be used to infer anything about mainstream anything.
I'm actually curious, though. Are Hannity Limbaugh Carlson etc. talking about the Chinese funding protests in the US?
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Old 2nd September 2020, 09:43 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I'm actually curious, though. Are Hannity Limbaugh Carlson etc. talking about the Chinese funding protests in the US?
Ah. I have no idea.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if if the Chinese government is funding protests, though. But I'm content to wait and see if any evidence actually emerges.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 10:07 AM   #294
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Ok, so when is the point reached to call something facism?

And, more importantly, if that point is reached, are the citizens still able to do something to prevent the facism to get even more serious?
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Old 2nd September 2020, 10:27 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by carlosy View Post
Ok, so when is the point reached to call something facism?

And, more importantly, if that point is reached, are the citizens still able to do something to prevent the facism to get even more serious?
No. That's always been the game.

"You can't call it this until it's too late to do anything about."

The nihilistic trolls only recognize two states of discourse, being over-dramatic and being past the point of no-return.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 10:27 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I'm actually curious, though. Are Hannity Limbaugh Carlson etc. talking about the Chinese funding protests in the US?
The Trump administration forced a change in several intel reports to draw an equivalency between Chinese and Iranian actions and Russian actions where none exists.

One doesn't have to like or trust China to know they simply aren't doing the same things or to the same extent Russia is. Because they aren't. That doesn't mean they aren't a danger, but they just aren't using those specific kinds of attacks. This isn't surprising given their huge 'don't interfere with our internal stuff because we won't with yours' attitude and the free pass Trump has been giving them on concentration camps and Hong Kong.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 10:35 AM   #297
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I'd say that fascism has to be the actual implementation of a fascist system of government. People can have fascist tendencies or fascist ideology, but that doesn't make what they're actually doing fascism.

Bernie Sanders could be the most communistic communist who ever communi... cated? But even if he were elected president it wouldn't make the US a communist state.

Trump's "regime", to the extent that it's a regime at all, is functionally the same as every other presidential administration, and well within the context of the representative republic that is our actual system of government.

ETA: I don't think Trump is a fascist simply because I don't think Trump is particularly ideological. Mussolini articulated a specific form of government, and set about intentionally making it a reality. Hitler likewise developed, published, and preached an ideological system; and sought to impose it on Germany and the world.

Trump doesn't really seem to believe in anything other than Donald Trump. And while a cult of personality seems to be a typical characteristic of a fascist regime, being self-centered is not itself evidence of fascist ideology. I think Trump honestly doesn't give enough of a **** about ideology or systems of government, or even rulership, to bother with fascism, or conservatism, or any other kind of -ism other than Trump-ism.

I think as far as Trump is concerned, his "regime" is more like a super successful reality TV show than anything else. And I think that as far as Trump is concerned, that's all he's looking for anyway.

I think it's probably impossible to turn America into a fascist state. And I don't see anyone really even trying.

Last edited by theprestige; 2nd September 2020 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 11:25 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
ETA: I don't think Trump is a fascist simply because I don't think Trump is particularly ideological.
I've made this point before. It falls on deaf ears. Nobody wants to hear it, because it doesn't confirm what they already believe.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 11:37 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I've made this point before. It falls on deaf ears. Nobody wants to hear it, because it doesn't confirm what they already believe.
How is it functionally different if someone acts like a fascist without believing in it versus acts like a fascist while believing in it?

Emperor Claudius believed himself to be devoted to republican principles his entire life, including during his reign as monarch and dictator. It made no difference at all in how his state was run.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 11:40 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The Trump administration forced a change in several intel reports to draw an equivalency between Chinese and Iranian actions and Russian actions where none exists.

One doesn't have to like or trust China to know they simply aren't doing the same things or to the same extent Russia is. Because they aren't. That doesn't mean they aren't a danger, but they just aren't using those specific kinds of attacks. This isn't surprising given their huge 'don't interfere with our internal stuff because we won't with yours' attitude and the free pass Trump has been giving them on concentration camps and Hong Kong.
China is mainly focused on industrial espionage and things that directly benefit China. Russia is trying to drag others down in the hopes that it looks more attractive by comparison. In the long term, China’s isn’t anywhere near as disruptive but is likely more dangerous.. TBH Russia attacks strike me s little harebrained. They are trying to turn back the clock to a time when they were relevant on the world stage, not unlike Conservatives in the UK trying to turn back the clock to the 1890’s or Conservatives in the US trying to turn back the clock to the 1950’s.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 11:42 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
How is it functionally different if someone acts like a fascist without believing in it versus acts like a fascist while believing in it?
But Trump isn't acting like a fascist. Allegedly he's in a proto-fascist state right now, trying to become an actual fascist. But actual fascism (as opposed to mere authoritarianism) just doesn't happen in the absence of a driving ideology. Without that ideology, Trump will never become what he is alleged to be striving towards.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 11:44 AM   #302
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No, it falls on the ears of people who don't rely on mind-reading, and who instead judge his words and actions.

This is reminiscent of the poster who argued that Trump is not a global warming denier, and that we should pay no heed to the fact that he denies global warming, and pay no heed to the fact he enacts policies in alignment with GW denial.

The inner workings of Trump's brain -- which I suspect is highly oriented towards the glorification and enrichment of Trump as the over-arching principles -- is mostly irrelevant.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 11:46 AM   #303
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OK
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove rule 12 breach
Whatever you say.
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Last edited by Agatha; 4th September 2020 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 11:47 AM   #304
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He's not a fascist; he's just trying to become an actual fascist. Classic.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 12:07 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'd say that fascism has to be the actual implementation of a fascist system of government. People can have fascist tendencies or fascist ideology, but that doesn't make what they're actually doing fascism.
The fascist system of government is a dictatorship with a few trappings of democracy. This is very much consistent with what Trump supports want for the US.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Trump's "regime", to the extent that it's a regime at all, is functionally the same as every other presidential administration, and well within the context of the representative republic that is our actual system of government.
This isn’t even remotely true. Trump’s co-opting the machinery of government to use it for political purposes is unlike anything ever seen before in the US, and unlike anything seen in any functioning democracy. At this particular point in time, the US is as much a Republic as Russia or China.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
ETA: I don't think Trump is a fascist simply because I don't think Trump is particularly ideological..
I don’t see why it would be important if he knows the name of what he's creating.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Mussolini articulated a specific form of government, and set about intentionally making it a reality. Hitler likewise developed, published, and preached an ideological system; and sought to impose it on Germany and the world.
I don’t see why that would matter either. Fascism as a means to an end is still fascism.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 12:12 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
He's not a fascist; he's just trying to become an actual fascist. Classic.
Except he isn't. That's the point. The only people who try to become fascists are ideologically motivated. Trump isn't ideologically motivated, because has has no real ideology.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 12:14 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Except he isn't. That's the point. The only people who try to become fascists are ideologically motivated. Trump isn't ideologically motivated, because has has no real ideology.
I suspect he's more lazy than non-ideological. His actions reveal a preference. The fact that he sucks at consistently applying political pressure to achieve a longer term goal doesn't detract from his affinity towards fascism.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 12:24 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The only people who try to become fascists are ideologically motivated.
False. He doesn’t need to be a true believer in the benefits of fascism to want to be a fascist dictator. Fascism as a means to an end is still fascism.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 12:32 PM   #309
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If Trump trolls/Poes/Performance Arts/Mr Bean's/"LOL lookit the triggered Libs" us into a fascist state then he's still a fascist.

You can't topple a country ironically.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 12:32 PM   #310
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I think of a couple of the mass shooters were murdering ironically.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 12:36 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think it's probably impossible to turn America into a fascist state. And I don't see anyone really even trying.
I predict in 20-30 years this statement will age very, very badly.

If you are thinking "that cannot happen here", you are delusional. Though I think more likely stance is "that won't affect white rich republican like me, so whatever".
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Old 2nd September 2020, 12:52 PM   #312
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Amazing how intelligent people with some grasp of history can still naively say, "It can't happen here."

The GOP has a base wherein a good fraction say Trump never lies. If there is about 40% of a nation's populace that are in such denial of reality, the ground is already frightfully fertile for the co-opting by a capable autocrat. I mean, if Drumpf has got this far, imagine how much more effective a competent Svengali could be.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 02:40 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
False. He doesn’t need to be a true believer in the benefits of fascism to want to be a fascist dictator. Fascism as a means to an end is still fascism.
You can claim that a fascist doesn't need to believe in the ideology he's pushing. But he still has to push an ideology. Fascism doesn't exist in the absence of ideology.

And Trump isn't pushing any ideology. The closest thing he's got is a very bland and generic populism, but it's a stretch to call Trump's version an actual ideology.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 02:42 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I suspect he's more lazy than non-ideological.
Six of one, half dozen of the other. He may be non-ideological because he's lazy (rather than out of any principled commitment to not be), but that still leaves him non-ideological.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 02:45 PM   #315
JoeMorgue
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Again Trump "doesn't have an ideology so LOL he can't be a fascist".... unless you're black, a woman, gay, a religious minority, a political rival and... oh why am I talking it's not like any of the trolls will even listen.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 03:15 PM   #316
Venom
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I won't call it fascist....yet.

There are some truly awful people in this country who wouldn't mind a fascist regime so long as the undesirables are kept out of their business or even imprisoned or killed off.

I don't think Trump will be the one to flip the switch to full blown fascism.
I think someone like Stephen Miller or Charlie Kirk is more ideologically inclined towards fascism.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 03:58 PM   #317
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This morning, a friend of mine received the following message from some part of the Trump campaign. The reason I say the Trump campaign is involved is that this friend's only interaction with any pro Trump organization was to try to get a couple of tickets to a rally so as to deny them to someone else. Someone involved with that rally must have passed his information on to whoever sent the following:

Quote:
Sleepy Joe FINALLY came out of his basement, only to disappoint the American People yet again.

He went on LIVE TV and REFUSED to condemn (or even mention) Radical Left-wing groups like ANTIFA. He is willing to watch these dangerous THUGS burn our communities to the ground in order to appease his liberal base. How pathetic.

We can’t let him get away with it, fred. I want you to know that as long as I am your President, I will defend the rights of law-abiding citizens and honor the heroes that Keep Americans Safe.

The Liberal Mob will come after you on the streets simply for not agreeing with them. They hate our country and they hate YOU, fred.

The Election is just over 2 MONTHS AWAY, and I need my best supporters to step up to the front lines as we head into November. With your help, I want to send a message to remind Joe Biden that, despite his best efforts (or lack thereof), WE WILL RESTORE LAW AND ORDER.
Trump himself certainly did not write this message, (it is much too coherent for one thing), but someone in or around his campaign did, and someone higher up in that organization approved it. The rhetoric of incitement to violence may not yet have reached Kristalnacht proportions, but it is headed in that direction. It is not necessary that Trump himself have the intellectual wherewithal to bring about fascism in this country, or even to understand what fascism is; it is only necessary that he be willing to use, and to be used by, those around him who do have the brains. If Trump sees himself getting where he wants to go, I doubt that he is capable of caring about what is done to get him there.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 04:12 PM   #318
theprestige
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
How is it functionally different if someone acts like a fascist without believing in it versus acts like a fascist while believing in it?
The most obvious difference is that one is not advancing a fascist ideology, nor implementing a fascist system of government.

Most of the ways that Trump "acts like a fascist" are things that are not unique to fascism. In terms of functional fascism, Trump isn't acting that way at all. Functionally, his administration is in line with previous administrations.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 04:27 PM   #319
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Masque View Post
The Liberal Mob will come after you on the streets simply for not agreeing with them. They hate our country and they hate YOU, fred.
Let's see...

If the "Liberal Mob" is at all like the liberals on this board, then the part about hating conservatives is definitely true.

I'd say the part about hating America is also true.

As for the "Liberal Mob" coming after you on the streets for disagreeing with them?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7WH9V2pZWg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4

https://twitter.com/JFNYC1/status/1299356277806706689

https://twitter.com/AsraNomani/statu...99676710580224

https://twitter.com/rawsmedia/status...55028213678082

Last edited by theprestige; 2nd September 2020 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 04:32 PM   #320
varwoche
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The most obvious difference is that one is not advancing a fascist ideology, nor implementing a fascist system of government.
You're foisting rubbish so twisted, so disconnected from reality, it's the stuff of alternate universes.

Demonizing brown people
Violently attack peaceful protesters
Applauding violence against journalists
Engaging in brazen voter suppression campaign
Embracing dictators, shunning democracies
Encouraging goon squads to perpetrate violence against protesters
Threatening whistleblowers with death
Threatening political opponents with prison, death

All in the name of The Nation.

What a sorry joke.
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