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Tags obituaries , Robert Mugabe , Zimbabwe incidents , Zimbabwe politics

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Old 5th September 2019, 10:03 PM   #1
angrysoba
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Robert Mugabe has snuffed it

I don't have a link.

But he is dead.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:21 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I don't have a link.

But he is dead.
If I was religious and betting man, I would put a $1 k on which way he is going.

And the lift has no up buttons.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:55 PM   #3
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I'd be prepared to celebrate the disgusting prick's death, but it's about 30 years too late for that.
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:07 PM   #4
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And the world has just become a better place.....
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:29 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I don't have a link.

But he is dead.
Yay.

He's with his country now, in hell (or the atheist equivalent).

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Old 5th September 2019, 11:29 PM   #6
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I'm pretty sure at some point on this forum I have said "Hurry up and die, Mugabe".

And now he has.

Dead link.
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:43 PM   #7
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Now he is MUCH more use to his country...as fertiliser.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:08 AM   #8
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Yet another case of The Don getting it utterly wrong - though in my defence I was only 12 at the time.

The Smith regime in Rhodesia was so unpopular in the UK (presumably as a result of UDI) that when Zimbabwe became (officially) independent and held elections in 1980 I was really optimistic. Even in the first few years I had hopes that Zimbabwe would manage to be a multi racial country with a good economy - boy was I wrong

Not only has Mugabe ruined a country when he was alive and President, I believe that he has sown the seeds for its continued destruction for decades afterwards
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:17 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yet another case of The Don getting it utterly wrong - though in my defence I was only 12 at the time.

The Smith regime in Rhodesia was so unpopular in the UK (presumably as a result of UDI) that when Zimbabwe became (officially) independent and held elections in 1980 I was really optimistic. Even in the first few years I had hopes that Zimbabwe would manage to be a multi racial country with a good economy - boy was I wrong

Not only has Mugabe ruined a country when he was alive and President, I believe that he has sown the seeds for its continued destruction for decades afterwards

It is often said (with much truth) that Mugabe turned the bread-basket of Africa into the basket-case of Africa.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:20 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yet another case of The Don getting it utterly wrong - though in my defence I was only 12 at the time.

The Smith regime in Rhodesia was so unpopular in the UK (presumably as a result of UDI) that when Zimbabwe became (officially) independent and held elections in 1980 I was really optimistic. Even in the first few years I had hopes that Zimbabwe would manage to be a multi racial country with a good economy - boy was I wrong

Not only has Mugabe ruined a country when he was alive and President, I believe that he has sown the seeds for its continued destruction for decades afterwards
Don't worry, you are not alone. The history repeated itself twenty years later in Venezuela. Millions of people around the world still adore Hugo Chavez who did the same for his country, using the same methods, with the same reasons, yielding the same results. Both are venerated as perfect leaders by varying groups of people (African supremacists / Fanatical Marxists).

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Old 6th September 2019, 01:03 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
It is often said (with much truth) that Mugabe turned the bread-basket of Africa into the basket-case of Africa.
Compare the state of the country with that of neighbouring Botswana.
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Old 6th September 2019, 02:41 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by BillC View Post
Compare the state of the country with that of neighbouring Botswana.
Hmm.

From what I can see, Botswana's rise to become one of Africa's richest countries has been a mirror image of Zimbabwe's decline.
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Old 6th September 2019, 03:43 AM   #13
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Mugabe's first mistake was to believe that capitalist agriculture would improve conditions for Zimbabweans:

Quote:
He announced a policy of reconciliation and invited whites to help rebuild the country.
“If yesterday I fought you as an enemy, today you have become a friend,” he told them. “If yesterday you hated me, today you cannot avoid the love that binds me to you.”
Zimbabwe's intellectual despot: how Mugabe became Africa's fallen angel (Guardian, Sep. 6, 2019)

That was when the West still loved him for having given up on Marxism and therefore also wasn't really bothered by "the vicious ethnic cleansing that ensued in the mid-80s":

Quote:
Few in the west noticed, or wanted to. They preferred to see an economy that was growing as agriculture boomed ...

And at that time Mugabe actually did do something for ordinary people in Zimbabwe who loved him, too:

Quote:
... and Mugabe built clinics and schools, turning Zimbabwe into one of the healthiest, best-educated and most hopeful countries in Africa.

But!

Quote:
The optimism began to sour in 1997, when Mugabe gave in to pressure from war veterans waging violent protests for pensions.

This is something that any leader of an African nation should know: "an economy that was growing" does not go hand in hand with pensions for impoverished Africans! If the purpose of economic growth is to enrich white farmers, money for clinics and schools is a waste, which is why white farmers got the idea to pay trade unions and political activists to put a stop to Mugabe:

Quote:
Trade unions and political activists began organising what would become the first viable political threat to Mugabe, the Movement for Democratic Change (MDC). But it was partly bankrolled by white farmers

Which led to Mugabe turning against the white farmers who he had initially hoped would help him turn Zimbabwe into an affluent nation that could also sustain its indigenous population and not just the white upper classes:

Quote:
In 2000 Mugabe began a land reform programme, billed as an attempt to correct the unresolved colonialist legacy by giving white-owned farms to landless black people.

And that is how Mugabe became the epitome of a black African dictator in the West.
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Old 6th September 2019, 04:11 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Mugabe's first mistake was to believe that capitalist agriculture would improve conditions for Zimbabweans:


...snip...


And that is how Mugabe became the epitome of a black African dictator in the West.
No. His first mistake (and becoming the epitome of a dictator) was in 1982, after just 2 years in power, when he started the Matabeleland massacres of dissenters.
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Old 6th September 2019, 04:14 AM   #15
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Always strange how gaining dictatorial powers change saints to demons. He was always a nasty piece of work, just because for a time he was aligned with what was right didn't make him a good person.
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Old 6th September 2019, 09:34 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yet another case of The Don getting it utterly wrong - though in my defence I was only 12 at the time.

The Smith regime in Rhodesia was so unpopular in the UK (presumably as a result of UDI) that when Zimbabwe became (officially) independent and held elections in 1980 I was really optimistic. Even in the first few years I had hopes that Zimbabwe would manage to be a multi racial country with a good economy - boy was I wrong

Not only has Mugabe ruined a country when he was alive and President, I believe that he has sown the seeds for its continued destruction for decades afterwards
Don't feel too bad, lots of people had high hopes at the time. Norman Beaton once gave an outstanding performance as Mugabe in an unusual drama documentary from Channel 4's Dispatches back in the day, that took a very positive line. I expect that it hasn't aged well.
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Old 6th September 2019, 10:08 AM   #17
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He was 95.

The good die young.
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Old 6th September 2019, 10:09 AM   #18
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Good Riddance.
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Old 6th September 2019, 01:02 PM   #19
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Mugube is the ultimate textbook example of "Power Corrupts;Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely".
Sadly, he not the only example of the leader of a anti colonial movement becoming a tryant once the colonial power is kicked out; that seems to be a common scenario.
Algeria,Vietnam (which managed to spawn 2 corrupt and dictatorial regimes for a while) The Congo,the list goes on.

And if you really want a contrast, compare him with Nelson Mandela....
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Old 6th September 2019, 01:11 PM   #20
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But Mugabe is now a dead insane corrupt ex dictator.
He has passed on, he has ceased to be, he is a stiff, bereft of life....
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Old 6th September 2019, 01:20 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Mugube is the ultimate textbook example of "Power Corrupts;Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely".
Sadly, he not the only example of the leader of a anti colonial movement becoming a tryant once the colonial power is kicked out; that seems to be a common scenario.
Algeria,Vietnam (which managed to spawn 2 corrupt and dictatorial regimes for a while) The Congo,the list goes on.

And if you really want a contrast, compare him with Nelson Mandela....
One could also (noting contrast pointed out earlier) compare him to Seretse Khama.
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Old 6th September 2019, 01:37 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Mugube is the ultimate textbook example of "Power Corrupts;Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely".
Sadly, he not the only example of the leader of a anti colonial movement becoming a tryant once the colonial power is kicked out; that seems to be a common scenario.
Algeria,Vietnam (which managed to spawn 2 corrupt and dictatorial regimes for a while) The Congo,the list goes on.

And if you really want a contrast, compare him with Nelson Mandela....
The tragedy of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe is that due to the white governments intransigent refusal in the early days to treat with moderate black leaders, the only full on challengers to white supremacy were mugabe (backed by communist China) and Nkomo (backed by the USSR). With those kinds of backers, is a bad result surprising?
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Old 6th September 2019, 03:31 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The tragedy of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe is that due to the white governments intransigent refusal in the early days to treat with moderate black leaders, the only full on challengers to white supremacy were mugabe (backed by communist China) and Nkomo (backed by the USSR). With those kinds of backers, is a bad result surprising?
Not an unsusual scenario. France ignored the more moderate Arab leaders in Algeria, who might have been satisfied with reforms to give the Arab Majority in Algeria fair representation in the French Parliament and left the door open to the more radical FLN.
Or the British in their North American Colonies, come to think of it....they ignored the moderates and enabled the radicals.
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Old 6th September 2019, 03:38 PM   #24
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SOme of the attempts I am seeing in some comments section to make a great leader out of Mugabe are just plain pathetic.
One said he is a hero to most Africans. IMHO he is more of a negative example.
Same thing happened a few years ago when Idi Amin kicked the bucket....
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Old 6th September 2019, 03:40 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yet another case of The Don getting it utterly wrong - though in my defence I was only 12 at the time.

The Smith regime in Rhodesia was so unpopular in the UK (presumably as a result of UDI) that when Zimbabwe became (officially) independent and held elections in 1980 I was really optimistic. Even in the first few years I had hopes that Zimbabwe would manage to be a multi racial country with a good economy - boy was I wrong

Not only has Mugabe ruined a country when he was alive and President, I believe that he has sown the seeds for its continued destruction for decades afterwards
Zimbabwe ain't gonna be Wakanda any time soon, thanks to Mugabe....
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Old 7th September 2019, 06:42 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Not an unsusual scenario. France ignored the more moderate Arab leaders in Algeria, who might have been satisfied with reforms to give the Arab Majority in Algeria fair representation in the French Parliament and left the door open to the more radical FLN.
Or the British in their North American Colonies, come to think of it....they ignored the moderates and enabled the radicals.
Hell, the British in North America managed to turn the moderates into radicals.
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Old 8th September 2019, 03:13 AM   #27
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Old 8th September 2019, 04:57 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Zimbabwe ain't gonna be Wakanda any time soon, thanks to Mugabe....

No country in Africa is gonna be Wakanda any time soon, thanks to colonialism and imperialism.
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Old 8th September 2019, 05:01 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
No. His first mistake (and becoming the epitome of a dictator) was in 1982, after just 2 years in power, when he started the Matabeleland massacres of dissenters.

His belief that capitalist agriculture would improve the conditions for ordinary Zimbabweans started before that. That's why the West loved him and wasn't too concerned about the massacres.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th September 2019, 06:25 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'd be prepared to celebrate the disgusting prick's death, but it's about 30 years too late for that.
I'm kind of thinking he won. Dying in your bed is pretty much the best a big man of Africa can hope for.
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Old 9th September 2019, 02:30 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No country in Africa is gonna be Wakanda any time soon, thanks to colonialism and imperialism.
Not defending colonialism at all, but the colonial period ended over 50 years ago, and bad and stupid leadership in Africa no longer can use it as a excuse.
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Old 9th September 2019, 02:31 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
His belief that capitalist agriculture would improve the conditions for ordinary Zimbabweans started before that. That's why the West loved him and wasn't too concerned about the massacres.
Yeah, like the Marxist system of agriculture worked so great. It managed to turn Russia from a food exporting nation into a food importing one, and CHins still has not fully recovered from Mao's Great Leap Forward.....
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Old 9th September 2019, 02:35 PM   #33
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I am not trying to deny the horrid impacts of imperialism in Africa, but am saying enough time has passed for that to no longer be an excuse for bad management and just plain stupidity.
And the decision by many African leaders in the days after indepdence to model their economies after the Soviet/Maoist model was truly a disasterous one.
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Old 10th September 2019, 12:10 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Not defending colonialism at all, but the colonial period ended over 50 years ago, and bad and stupid leadership in Africa no longer can use it as a excuse.

No, you're just defending imperialism, colonialism's younger brother. That is the wonderful thing about partisan thinking. Partisan thinkers don't even notice when they contradict themselves:

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Yeah, like the Marxist system of agriculture worked so great. It managed to turn Russia from a food exporting nation into a food importing one, and CHins still has not fully recovered from Mao's Great Leap Forward.....

Yes, time is a wonderful excuse for colonialism and imperialism, but not for (allegedly) socialist countries. As an industrialized country, Russia was able to become a food importing nation, quite an accomplishment, actually, considering their starting point, and China seems to have recovered pretty well, economically, unlike the majority of colonialized countries. (But the majority of the Chinese haven't.)
Quote:
Continued population and/or income increase have pushed the United States, China, Germany, Japan and the United Kingdom up the list of the Countries Who Import the Most Food.
Countries Most Dependent On Others For Food (World Atlas)

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am not trying to deny the horrid impacts of imperialism in Africa, but am saying enough time has passed for that to no longer be an excuse for bad management and just plain stupidity.
And the decision by many African leaders in the days after indepdence to model their economies after the Soviet/Maoist model was truly a disasterous one.

"enough time has passed" for denying the impacts of imperialism in Africa, apparently. But enough time will never pass for the initial mistakes of the USSR or China to be forgotten. But let's just pretend that African nations are all poor because they modeled their economies after the Soviet/Maoist model, even though Zimbabwe certainly didn't. Even though Mugabe pretended to be a Marxist (which had some people in the West worried, at first), he put his complete trust in the capitalist agriculture run by white farmers, and they certainly thrived even though the rest of Zimbabwe didn't, which is why you resort to your fall-back argument: mismanagement!

And that is how you "deny the horrid impacts of imperialism in Africa" while pretending that it isn't so. Congratulations! What a fine accomplishment from a pretend moderate.

By the way, how many years did it take the USA to not get proper health care? How many years did it take for the USA to not eradicate poverty? What is the time frame we should consider? 50 years? 100 years?


ETA: Why are so many people in developing countries poor?

ETA: Modern imperialism in Africa (but in German)
Why Mugabe has to be removed (Also in German)
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Last edited by dann; 10th September 2019 at 12:28 AM.
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Old 10th September 2019, 07:53 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Don't feel too bad, lots of people had high hopes at the time. Norman Beaton once gave an outstanding performance as Mugabe in an unusual drama documentary from Channel 4's Dispatches back in the day, that took a very positive line. I expect that it hasn't aged well.
As did Stevie Wonder in Plaster Blaster. "Peace has come to Zimbabwe".
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Old 10th September 2019, 10:07 PM   #36
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There was a deadline back in 2016 for the last day you could turn in your 100 trillion dollar bills.

There was a point when the inflation rate hit 79 billion percent.

If it weren't for the bodies, you could look at it almost as performance art!
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:49 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
There was a deadline back in 2016 for the last day you could turn in your 100 trillion dollar bills.

There was a point when the inflation rate hit 79 billion percent.

If it weren't for the bodies, you could look at it almost as performance art!
IIRC, those notes had a greater value sold as novelty items on eBay than they did as currency.
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Old 14th September 2019, 07:52 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No country in Africa is gonna be Wakanda any time soon, thanks to colonialism and imperialism.
Huh? It was colonialism that brought civilization to Africa. There had been people living in Africa for 10 of thousands of years. Are you saying that Africa would have just magically taken off in the last few centuries if Europeans didn't show up?? Africa took off because of European colonialism. As the best leader Rhodesia ever had, Ian Smith, stated,

"To those who say derogatory things about colonialism, I would say colonialism is a wonderful thing. It spread civilization to Africa. Before it they had no written language, no wheel as we know it, no schools, no hospitals, not even normal clothing."
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Old 14th September 2019, 08:03 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Not only has Mugabe ruined a country when he was alive and President, I believe that he has sown the seeds for its continued destruction for decades afterwards
It seems very likely, but at least with him dead there is a slim possibility that things might get better.
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Old 14th September 2019, 10:10 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Don't worry, you are not alone. The history repeated itself twenty years later in Venezuela. Millions of people around the world still adore Hugo Chavez who did the same for his country, using the same methods, with the same reasons, yielding the same results. Both are venerated as perfect leaders by varying groups of people (African supremacists / Fanatical Marxists).

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Mugabe and Chavez; true BFF's:

Quote:
Caracas, Venezuela - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez praised Zimbabwe's embattled President Robert Mugabe as a "freedom fighter," bestowing the visiting African leader with a replica of South American independence hero Simon Bolivar's sword.

"I give you a replica of liberator Simon Bolivar's sword," Chavez said Thursday after the two leaders signed an energy co-operation agreement.

"For you, who like Bolivar, took up arms to liberate your people. For you, who like Bolivar, are and will always be a true freedom fighter," Chavez said. "He continues, alongside his people, to confront the pretensions of new imperialists."
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