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Old 11th September 2019, 08:58 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I think it's more common for meat-eaters to cast judgment in a vegan discussion than it is for vegans to cast judgment in a meat-eating discussion.
This has been my experience.

If you think vegans are pushy and judgmental, all I can say is that you should try putting the shoe on the other foot. I can't tell you how many times I've had somebody lecture me about their half-memories of some Discovery Channel diegesis, when all I'm trying to do is eat my lunch.

Originally Posted by Pterodactyl
"Nutritional yeast" oh joy. When fortified in a lab/factory somewhere, it can replace some of the vitamins found in actual food. What's not to love?
Well, for one thing you don't have to assert some woolly anti-modern distinction between food and actual food. It's also pretty tasty. Great for sauces. Oh, and it's nutritious.

More lab food, please.
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:32 AM   #82
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Puhleeze, if you want to hear judgey listen to people who feel the need to lecture you on eating fewer meals than they do. I got an earful from a coworker the other day, who got nosey about what I had for lunch. I don't eat lunch. So this 300 pound woman who can't lurch without gasping for breath and eats garbage junk food all day lectured me on nutrition. She ate a cupcake the size of her head last week and thinks I'm the one with unhealthy eating habits.
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:40 AM   #83
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[/quote]Itís not crazy to eat only plants and with a little planning, you donít need supplements-itís nutritionally complete. B12 is available from nutritional yeast and many vegan friendly foods are fortified with it.[/quote]


What's the plant based source of B12?
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:42 AM   #84
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That's a quote from xjx388. Quoting and editing don't seem to be working on that post/text.


ETA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitami...ants_and_algae


Options seem limited for vegan friendly B12, but at least some seem to exist.
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:11 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Options seem limited for vegan friendly B12, but at least some seem to exist.
Naturally occurring sources are limited. But it's trivial to synthesize and fortify/supplement, and the aversion to doing so is irrational. Some people might have noticed that our milk is routinely fortified with vitamin D, orange juice with calcium, breakfast cereal with almost every vitamin under the sun. There's no reason foods which tend to be consumed disproportionately by vegans shouldn't be fortified as well, and they are. I probably get enough B12 from the soy milk in my tea.
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:26 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Naturally occurring sources are limited. But it's trivial to synthesize and fortify/supplement, and the aversion to doing so is irrational.
Disagree.

In the first place it's not irrational to question whether synthetic vitamins are adequate. For B12 in particular, the evidence based recommendations are not to depend on the synthetic source alone. There are definite differences between the two although I'm not aware of any harmful differences.

So are there any fortifications and supplements that are vegan friendly and don't depend entirely on the synthetic form?
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:32 AM   #87
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But yeasts are animals too, vegans can't eat their product any more than they can eat cheese.
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:34 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
But yeasts are animals too...

No.
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:35 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
In the first place it's not irrational to question whether synthetic vitamins are adequate.
Yes it is, if they're chemically identical.

Quote:
There are definite differences between the two although I'm not aware of any harmful differences.
Can you name some of those differences?

Quote:
So are there any fortifications and supplements that are vegan friendly and don't depend entirely on the synthetic form?
There is no B12 anywhere in the world that isn't synthesized by bacteria. It's just a matter of whether that happens in an animal's gut or a fermentation tank.
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:59 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Yes it is, if they're chemically identical.
It's known that they are not.
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Can you name some of those differences?
Methylcobalamin vs. Cyanocobalamin for one relevant to B12.

You should spend some time reading Wikipedia on this matter. Vitamins come in many forms, many (most?) are families of chemicals. The concept of a synthetic form being identical to the natural form is fairly naive. Natural vitamins aren't even chemically identical to themselves if you classify them by their usual "vitamin" names. We are fairly sure we don't even know what all the forms are.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:07 AM   #91
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I pick my vitamins raw from the vine. The B12 is growing all the way up the trellis, quite lovely.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:10 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
There is no B12 anywhere in the world that isn't synthesized by bacteria. It's just a matter of whether that happens in an animal's gut or a fermentation tank.
But vegans/vegetarians make me feel uncomfortable so I feel obliged to point out flaws in their diet - even though hundreds of million of people manage quite happily on a vegan/vegetarian diet.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:16 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
It's known that they are not.
No it isn't.

Both cyanocobalamin and methylcobalamin are produced for fortification and supplementation (the B12 in my soy milk is cyanocobalamin, in my B12 supplement it's methylcobalamin).

There is no difference between naturally occuring methylcobalamin and synthetic methylcobalamin.

Further, there is no evidence of a difference in bioavailability between the two. Cyanocobalamin is readily converted to methylcobalamin.

Quote:
You should spend some time reading Wikipedia on this matter. Vitamins come on many forms, many (most?) are families of chemicals.
You shouldn't assume that I haven't. You should probably also read your own source.

Quote:
The concept of a synthetic form being identical to the natural form is fairly naive.
The assumption would be naive.

I was not making that assumption. I'm giving you an informed perspective, rather than reading wikipedia after the fact to try to justify an incorrect claim.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:21 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I pick my vitamins raw from the vine. The B12 is growing all the way up the trellis, quite lovely.
What do you do in the winter?
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:27 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
What do you do in the winter?
Holiday by the vitamin C side.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:32 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
There is no difference between naturally occuring methylcobalamin and synthetic methylcobalamin.
Completely ignoring the point that methylcobalamin isn't Vitamin B12. It is one of the vitamers in the B12 family.

Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Further, there is no evidence of a difference in bioavailability between the two. Cyanocobalamin is readily converted to methylcobalamin.
Wrong and doesn't even begin to address the whole issue.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25117994/
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition...cyanocobalamin
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:42 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
But yeasts are animals too, vegans can't eat their product any more than they can eat cheese.
Nope.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:44 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Puhleeze, if you want to hear judgey listen to people who feel the need to lecture you on eating fewer meals than they do. I got an earful from a coworker the other day, who got nosey about what I had for lunch. I don't eat lunch. So this 300 pound woman who can't lurch without gasping for breath and eats garbage junk food all day lectured me on nutrition. She ate a cupcake the size of her head last week and thinks I'm the one with unhealthy eating habits.
Was she vegan?
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:51 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Was she vegan?
She once ate a family-size platter of bbq chicken wings at 7:30 a.m. at her desk so I'm guessing no.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:56 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
She once ate a family-size platter of bbq chicken wings at 7:30 a.m. at her desk so I'm guessing no.
Fixed that for you.
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:00 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Completely ignoring the point that methylcobalamin isn't Vitamin B12. It is one of the vitamers in the B12 family.
Not so much ignoring it as treating it as uncontroversial. It's not like I claimed otherwise.

Quote:
Wrong and doesn't even begin to address the whole issue.
Nothing in either of your sources supports your claim: "For B12 in particular, the evidence based recommendations are not to depend on the synthetic source alone."

The healthline.com article would suggest that it is people who rely on naturally occuring B12 vitamers who might want to rethink things, if there's a difference in bioavailability at all, since there is no natural source of cyanocobalamin.

Your pubmed source argues for the importance of adenosylcobalamin in treating B12 deficiency. Treating a B12 deficiency is, of course, a different problem than ensuring an adequate dietary source, and isn't necessarily caused by an insufficient dietary source, so I'm going to treat that as irrelevant.

I'm more than satisfied, given that I have absurd quantities of both methylcobalamin and cyanocobalamin in my diet, that there's nothing further I need to do.

I'm a little bit worried about people who eat meat, though. You should check that you're getting enough synthetic cyanocobalamin in your diet.
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:28 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Not so much ignoring it as treating it as uncontroversial. It's not like I claimed otherwise.
Originally Posted by mumblethrax
Yes it is, if they're chemically identical.
We've established they aren't chemically identical.
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:45 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
We've established they aren't chemically identical.
No, we haven't. You've confused sythetic with cyanocobalamin--in fact, all four vitamers can be synthesized, and three of them routinely are, for the purpose of fortification and supplementation.

Synthetic methylcobalamin is, in fact, bio-identical to naturally occuring methylcobalamin.

There's no difficulty in getting bioavailable B12 in a vegan diet, and no good reason to prefer naturally-occuring sources to supplemental sources. If anything, synthetic sources should be preferred, since the naturally occurring forms are protein-bound, and will be less bioavailable for someone who has difficulty with chewing or digestion.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:32 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Naturally occurring sources are limited. But it's trivial to synthesize and fortify/supplement, and the aversion to doing so is irrational. Some people might have noticed that our milk is routinely fortified with vitamin D, orange juice with calcium, breakfast cereal with almost every vitamin under the sun. There's no reason foods which tend to be consumed disproportionately by vegans shouldn't be fortified as well, and they are. I probably get enough B12 from the soy milk in my tea.
I quoted someone earlier who said supplements were unnecessary for vegans.

Letting a food processor add vitamins and other nutrients to your food is no different than taking the pills, powder or whatever, yourself.

The fact that breakfast cereal is fortified with almost every vitamin under the sun, is a clue to just how healthy those whole grains are...
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:38 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Not so much ignoring it as treating it as uncontroversial. It's not like I claimed otherwise.


Nothing in either of your sources supports your claim: "For B12 in particular, the evidence based recommendations are not to depend on the synthetic source alone."

The healthline.com article would suggest that it is people who rely on naturally occuring B12 vitamers who might want to rethink things, if there's a difference in bioavailability at all, since there is no natural source of cyanocobalamin.

Your pubmed source argues for the importance of adenosylcobalamin in treating B12 deficiency. Treating a B12 deficiency is, of course, a different problem than ensuring an adequate dietary source, and isn't necessarily caused by an insufficient dietary source, so I'm going to treat that as irrelevant.

I'm more than satisfied, given that I have absurd quantities of both methylcobalamin and cyanocobalamin in my diet, that there's nothing further I need to do.

I'm a little bit worried about people who eat meat, though. You should check that you're getting enough synthetic cyanocobalamin in your diet.
And vitamin C. And D.

Last I heard, the government still mandates vitamin supplementation into the food supply, because the typical omnivore diet is deficient.

Classic whattaboutism IMO.

Vegan products have followed the omnivore model of supplementation in the overall food supply. Common risk vitamin deficiencies are fortified in nut milks and nutritional yeast. There is debate about seaweed, since it is usually colonized by bacteria and has B12 variants - but does that make it a good source (my answer: no).

None of this is unknown to or overlooked by registered dieticians (or even personal fitness trainers like myself) that construct and monitor vegan diets.

I made it to olympic trials in the 80s on a vegan diet. It's not a big deal.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:39 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
No, we haven't. You've confused sythetic with cyanocobalamin--
No, I haven't.
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Synthetic methylcobalamin is, in fact, bio-identical to naturally occuring methylcobalamin.
This is an unsupported assertion I'm going to take with a grain of salt for the moment.
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
There's no difficulty in getting bioavailable B12 in a vegan diet,...
Yes, there is.
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
and no good reason to prefer naturally-occuring sources to supplemental sources.
This is debatable.
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
If anything, synthetic sources should be preferred, since the naturally occurring forms are protein-bound, and will be less bioavailable for someone who has difficulty with chewing or digestion.
Unless there are other differences that mean they shouldn't be preferred.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:43 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I quoted someone earlier who said supplements were unnecessary for vegans.

Letting a food processor add vitamins and other nutrients to your food is no different than taking the pills, powder or whatever, yourself.

The fact that breakfast cereal is fortified with almost every vitamin under the sun, is a clue to just how healthy those whole grains are...
They're rarely whole grains, is the issue. They're almost all 'highly processed'. Otherwise they'd go bad in a few weeks. (whole grains contain oils that go rancid pretty quickly). Breakfast cereal is a pretty good example of an industrial product masquerading as 'food'.

And it's also a marketing gimmick. Many of the vitamins put in cereals would never be found in the raw ingredients in the first place and don't even have the excuse of being processed out. Like Vitamin C... they're included because marketers have led the population to believe that more vitamins is better. Put it in the cereal instead of Flintstones.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:46 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I quoted someone earlier who said supplements were unnecessary for vegans.
Well, that's wrong, if they weren't allowing for fortification.

Quote:
The fact that breakfast cereal is fortified with almost every vitamin under the sun, is a clue to just how healthy those whole grains are...
It's a better clue as to how healthy standard diets are. Nobody assumes you're eating breakfast cereal for every meal.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:50 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
This is dumb too, probably only 5-10% of vegans go around proselytizing, the rest of them you never even know about.
It's a truism of any diet, unfortunately.

eg: "First rule of Paleoclub - TELL EVERYBODY you're in Paleoclub"

Note... I've seen all the fads come and go and come back and go and come back again and go... 30 years of personal fitness training - my job was a lightning rod for compete strangers telling me they were on the ONE TRUE DIET THAT EVERYBODY SHOULD BE ON.

No two alike.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:51 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No, I haven't.
You did.

Quote:
This is an unsupported assertion I'm going to take with a grain of salt for the moment.
It's literally the same molecule. What magic do you think is happening when it's in food?

Quote:
Yes, there is.
No there isn't. Supplements are cheap. Fortified foods are everywhere. We're pissing out more B12 than we need.

Quote:
This is debatable.
Not by informed people.

Quote:
Unless there are other differences that mean they shouldn't be preferred.
Such as?
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:57 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
You did. [other unsupported assertions clipped]

I just reread every post I have in this thread. I did not confuse them in anything I posted and I'm certainly don't have that confusion.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:58 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
It's literally the same molecule. What magic do you think is happening when it's in food?
There's an overall good body of literature that suggests 'nutritionism' (assuming chemicals consumed in supplements and fortification are absorbed the same way as in the original food) is incorrect.

B12 is not strongly implicated, though. And it has the extra benefit of being storable, which is unusual for a water soluble vitamin. So periodic deficiencies can maybe be coasted over. But a Vegan diet is not a periodic deficiency, it's chronic. It's a scenario where I'd like to just support fortification in commonly consumed products, like store-bought rice milk, &c.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:06 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
There's an overall good body of literature that suggests 'nutritionism' (assuming chemicals consumed in supplements and fortification are absorbed the same way as in the original food) is incorrect.
Yes, there's good evidence of interactions that increase or decrease the bioavailability of certain nutrients, but as you say, B12 is not one of them.

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy
I just reread every post I have in this thread. I did not confuse them in anything I posted and I'm certainly don't have that confusion.
You did, with this: "For B12 in particular, the evidence based recommendations are not to depend on the synthetic source alone."

There is no one synthetic source of B12. They can all be synthesized, and they all are.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:13 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Yes, there's good evidence of interactions that increase or decrease the bioavailability of certain nutrients, but as you say, B12 is not one of them.
You just cited a large difference a few posts back.

Just for the record, bioavailabity isn't the only issue concerning whether there are good reasons to want natural vitamins or not.

Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
You did, with this: "For B12 in particular, the evidence based recommendations are not to depend on the synthetic source alone."

There is no one synthetic source of B12. They can all be synthesized, and they all are.
Where did I say there was one synthetic source of B12? I certainly don't think that.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:31 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
You just cited a large difference a few posts back.
I'd call it a minor difference--irrelevant to most of us. But one that favors synthetic B12, if it favors anything at all. If you do develop a B12 deficiency, your doctor won't treat it with food.

Quote:
Just for the record, bioavailabity isn't the only issue concerning whether there are good reasons to want natural vitamins or not.
So provide some. Why would you prefer "natural" methylcobalamin to synthetic methylcobalamin?

Quote:
Where did I say there was one synthetic source of B12? I certainly don't think that.
In the quote I just provided. Also in this exchange:

Quote:
In the first place it's not irrational to question whether synthetic vitamins are adequate.
Quote:
Yes it is, if they're chemically identical.
Quote:
It's known that they are not.
I mean, it's like pulling teeth. I should be getting paid to do this.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:35 PM   #116
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None of those things say that I think B12 has one synthetic source. And, again, I don't think that so it's an uninteresting thing for me to talk about.


ETA: And I certainly don't think that natural B12 is just one thing either, just in case you have that confusion too.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:37 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
But vegans/vegetarians make me feel uncomfortable so I feel obliged to point out flaws in their diet - even though hundreds of million of people manage quite happily on a vegan/vegetarian diet.
My understanding is that Buddhist are not necessarily vegetarians, but Buddhist priests are. Where are these hundreds of millions of whence you speak?
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:43 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
None of those things say that I think B12 has one synthetic source. And, again, I don't think that so it's an uninteresting thing for me to talk about.
If you say the synthetic source, it does in fact imply that there's only one--that being synthetic is a distinguishing feature. That's just basic pragmatic competence that nobody should have to explain to a native English speaker. If I we see two birds and I ask you which one you which one is a cardinal, answering with "The red one" would imply that you think there's only one red bird. And would be a strange thing to do if they were both red.

I agree, however, that this is totally uninteresting. The whole exercise is just an effort to hold vegans to absurd standards that nobody else is held to.

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Old 11th September 2019, 02:52 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
My understanding is that Buddhist are not necessarily vegetarians, but Buddhist priests are. Where are these hundreds of millions of whence you speak?
Buddhists aren't necessarily vegetarians, but my understanding is that the majority are anyway. Depends on the region, since they obtain food through 'begging' and pretty much have to take what they get.

Not mentioned above is Hindus, something like over a third of whom are lacto-vegetarian, not just avoiding beef, but all meat. So Including Buddhists, India is overall 31% lacto-vegetarian. That's a little over 400 million just in India. There is about the same proportion in Bangladesh, Burma, &c, so globally maybe a billion total.

ie: at the moment, about one in six earthlings is vegetarian. It's pretty common and ordinary outside the West.

I think a lot of the reaction to vegetarianism is that it's perceived as strange. It's spent many generations in the west being a sign of getting roped into some Oriental Cult, rather than recognized as just ordinary behavior in unfamiliar civilizations.

I think it's easier for me because I had the benefit of exposure to lots of cultures when I was young. One of the foster families I lived with were Rastas, and they were vegetarian. I spent a few childhood years eating delicious West Indies dishes, all vegetarian. And all of us were very healthy competitive athletes, it wasn't an issue until the occasional jackass heard about it and decided to make changing our ways the hill s/he was going to die on.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:55 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
If you say the synthetic source...[snip]...
Since I've made it clear that I understand vitamins are families of substances that doesn't seem a reasonable assumption.
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
The whole exercise is just an effort to hold vegans to absurd standards that nobody else is held to.
I have not said a single word about holding vegans to any standard.

You clearly have a bias you can't get past here.

I think it's fine for vegans to supplement in any form. I also learned (when answering my own question in this thread) that vegans can probably get enough B12 from plant based sources. I think veganism can be done in a healthy fashion.

The point that started all this was me saying I don't think it's irrational to want to get vitamins in their natural form. The point applies to omnivores and carnivores too FFS.
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