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Old 8th June 2016, 07:03 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
The analogy of stealing a car is insulting; people are not inanimate objects or possessions with no issues of consent about who enters them. If a woman or a man is incapable of consent, that means there is no consent.
You have misunderstood the analogy. Nobody is comparing the victim to the car; the comparison is between a rape victim and a theft victim. In both cases there is a lack of consent and the ensuing event is criminal behavior. And in both cases (parking a car unlocked in a bad neighborhood, getting black-out drunk at a frat party), the victim did something stupid that people who do not want to be victims should not do.

The argument was about whether telling people "this is stupid, don't do this" is blaming the victim for the crime, which it is not. The criminal still gets the blame for the crime. The victim only gets the blame for being stupid - which is not a crime, and does not mean that you deserve to get victimized.

I once had my GPS stolen out of my car in a parking garage. Guess what was the most repeated response I got when bringing it up.

Yes, it was about whether I left the doors unlocked, and the importance of locking your doors when parking anywhere downtown (even in a controlled lot like a parking garage). That wasn't victim-blaming either; nobody told me I should have had my GPS stolen or wanted me not to catch the guy who stole it and get it back. It was an acknowledgement that I had behaved irresponsibly, and an admonishment not to do so again. That doesn't shift the blame for the bad act away from the bad actor.
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Old 8th June 2016, 07:09 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It certainly achieved its goal of shifting the discussion away from them into how it was her fault.
Why do you think it was her fault? Isn't that victim-blaming?
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Old 8th June 2016, 07:14 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Rape is not about sex its about violence and control.
Feminists keep saying that, but I've yet to see convincing evidence of this. It's just the narrative they peddle because it serves their purposes. Besides, having sex with an unconscious person is about control? That makes little sense.

Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I disagree 100%. This case is TOTALLY about control.

You said it yourself. He was looking for sex, and couldn't get it. However, this unconscious gave him the opportunity, because he was in control. He could control her, and do what he wanted with her, without having to worry about silly things like whether she agreed to it.
That is a pretty broad and silly definition of "control". He wanted sex and took the opportunity.
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Old 8th June 2016, 07:16 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
She didn't go to the party alone; she went with her sister. And though getting so drunk was not her best decision (assuming she realised how strong the alcohol was), the only consequence anybody should expect from drinking is a hangover.
That sounds very naive. I don't know about you, but I'm always aware that people around me might take advantage of me one way or another, which is why I lock my doors.

Quote:
The analogy of stealing a car is insulting; people are not inanimate objects or possessions
Now it just seems like you're missing the point of the analogy and skipping right to the outrage circus. Personally, I compare pretty much everything to cars. It doesn't mean that everything is literally a car. It's an analogy, for ****'s sake.
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Old 8th June 2016, 07:20 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Oh, so all men are rapists and it's no use having laws against it, then? I mean we're all so rapey, right?
It is clearly pointless to try to lock up rapists like this guy, so why bother treating it as a big deal that he was raping her? It is better for society to not ruin his career right?
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Old 8th June 2016, 07:21 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
We?

Just you, own it.
Plenty of people seem more concerned about her actions than those of the rapist or the judge that didn't want to ruin his life just because he raped a irresponsible woman like that.
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Old 8th June 2016, 07:25 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Why do you think it was her fault? Isn't that victim-blaming?
So you would rather talk about how you don't feel raping someone is a good reason to derail the felons life?
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Old 8th June 2016, 07:33 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I disagree 100%. This case is TOTALLY about control.

You said it yourself. He was looking for sex, and couldn't get it. However, this unconscious gave him the opportunity, because he was in control. He could control her, and do what he wanted with her, without having to worry about silly things like whether she agreed to it.

In contrast to your statement, this case of rape is COMPLETELY about control. Yes, he is using that control to get sex. That's why it is rape, and not assault, or theft. But make no mistake, it was about him being able to do what he wanted.
Surely, by the same reasoning, armed robbery isn't about money but about control. Yes, the robber is using control to get money, but it is about being able to do what one wants (namely, forcing the other person to give you his money).

I think that everyone agrees that control is an aspect of rape, but the controversy is whether (every) rape is fundamentally about violence and control and not about sex, as smartcooky explicitly claimed.
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Old 8th June 2016, 07:36 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I disagree 100%. This case is TOTALLY about control.

You said it yourself. He was looking for sex, and couldn't get it. However, this unconscious gave him the opportunity, because he was in control. He could control her, and do what he wanted with her, without having to worry about silly things like whether she agreed to it.

In contrast to your statement, this case of rape is COMPLETELY about control. Yes, he is using that control to get sex. That's why it is rape, and not assault, or theft. But make no mistake, it was about him being able to do what he wanted.
This is not how the "control" concept is generally used. Presumably, if he had been successful at talking one of the earlier girls into bed, he would not have resorted to taking advantage of one who was barely conscious at the end of the night.
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Old 8th June 2016, 07:45 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So you would rather talk about how you don't feel raping someone is a good reason to derail the felons life?
Your entire contribution to the conversation is Rule of So strawman JAQing off.

Not one of your posts in this thread has made any point I consider worthy of response, discussion or contemplation.


Have a nice day.
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Old 8th June 2016, 07:49 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Your entire contribution to the conversation is Rule of So strawman JAQing off.
I now have a disturbing image in my head of the Scarecrow from Wizard of Oz doing something inappropriate.
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Old 8th June 2016, 07:50 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Control was a means to the end. The goal was sex.
But the crime was in the controlling part, and doing it without consent. That it involved sex is what makes it rape, but this was all about being able to do what he wanted.

He couldn't get what he wanted consensually, so he took it by force.
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Old 8th June 2016, 08:00 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Surely, by the same reasoning, armed robbery isn't about money but about control. Yes, the robber is using control to get money, but it is about being able to do what one wants (namely, forcing the other person to give you his money).

I think that everyone agrees that control is an aspect of rape, but the controversy is whether (every) rape is fundamentally about violence and control and not about sex, as smartcooky explicitly claimed.
Sex and power are way to interlinked to say that they are only ever about one or the other.
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Old 8th June 2016, 08:00 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is clearly pointless to try to lock up rapists like this guy, so why bother treating it as a big deal that he was raping her? It is better for society to not ruin his career right?
It seems that you and I fundamentally disagree as to how to run a society. You think rape isn't a big deal and is the victim's fault, and that diminishing crime is not an important endeavour.
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Old 8th June 2016, 08:01 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Your entire contribution to the conversation is Rule of So strawman JAQing off.

Not one of your posts in this thread has made any point I consider worthy of response, discussion or contemplation.


Have a nice day.
Why is it most important to criticize her behavior about how she should have acted and not the rapist or the judge?
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Old 8th June 2016, 08:02 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It seems that you and I fundamentally disagree as to how to run a society. You think rape isn't a big deal and is the victim's fault, and that diminishing crime is not an important endeavour.
And you have been clear that punishing rapists is bad for society, because who knows maybe they will change with out any legal issues involved. But you then run away from the implications of your own ideas. Embrace them.
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Old 8th June 2016, 08:05 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why is it most important to criticize her behavior about how she should have acted and not the rapist or the judge?
Nobody ever said that. That's entirely a figment of your imagination.
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Old 8th June 2016, 08:06 AM   #218
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I was raised semi-Orthodox Hippy so perhaps I can shed some light on a subtle bit of history.

"Rape is a crime of violence" arose as a feminist movement reaction to rape cases just like this one. If it were strictly an event of sex, the trial might go like this:

Judge: "what's the going rate for sex behind a dumpster?"
Bailiff: "Twenty bucks, your honor."
Judge: "Assailant owes victim twenty bucks restitution. Case closed" *Bangs Gavel*

Seriously. This is not exaggerating.

This might be informative to some. And probably offensive to others.
https://abstractnonsense.wordpress.c...violent-crime/

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Old 8th June 2016, 08:08 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So you would rather talk about how you don't feel raping someone is a good reason to derail the felons life?
That is your position, not mine. Stop projecting.
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Old 8th June 2016, 08:10 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
But the crime was in the controlling part, and doing it without consent. That it involved sex is what makes it rape, but this was all about being able to do what he wanted.

He couldn't get what he wanted consensually, so he took it by force.
Yeah but what he wanted was sex, not control. The thought that rape is about control implies that sex is a means to an end, and that this end is some sort of power game. Though I'm sure that it happens in some cases, it doesn't seem like it most of the time.
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Old 8th June 2016, 08:11 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And you have been clear that punishing rapists is bad for society, because who knows maybe they will change with out any legal issues involved. But you then run away from the implications of your own ideas. Embrace them.
So you think that women are sub-human objects? How regressive of you.
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Old 8th June 2016, 08:12 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why is it most important to criticize her behavior about how she should have acted and not the rapist or the judge?
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nobody ever said that. That's entirely a figment of your imagination.
It's a pretty clever strategy. Start a long argument about whether the victim's behavior was imprudent or not, and then accuse your opponents of focusing solely on the victim's behavior.
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Old 8th June 2016, 08:24 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nobody ever said that. That's entirely a figment of your imagination.
No they just acted that way.
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Old 8th June 2016, 08:26 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That is your position, not mine. Stop projecting.
You started the argument that a long sentence was not warranted in this case because you felt he would be unlikely to offend again for some reason. Then back that up and apply that reasoning consistently.

This fell in with the judges and fathers arguments that this isn't some thing worth ruining such a promising future over. So what is it, how much impact should raping this woman have on this guy?
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Old 8th June 2016, 08:27 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
So you think that women are sub-human objects? How regressive of you.
Would you two just kiss already?

What stands out most here is that you two seem to generally agree, but are rather occupied with snarking at one another's sarcasm.

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Old 8th June 2016, 08:31 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You started the argument that a long sentence was not warranted in this case because you felt he would be unlikely to offend again for some reason.
No I didn't. You made this argument, not I. What I said was that 15 years was not warranted. I _also_ questioned whether he was likely to reoffend if given a lighter sentence, and _also_ questioned whether prison sentences are, as a whole, effective. Perhaps you are just unable to distinguish the three because they are related to the same topic, but that isn't my problem.

You are either deliberately misrepresenting almost everybody in this thread (and every other thread you participate in, it seems) because you think it's fun, or you are doing it inadvertantly because you can't understand that disagreeing on a detail doesn't mean you disagre on the whole. In the latter case, that would mean that you are a fanatic: people either agree with you entirely or are your opponents.

Pick your poison.
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Old 8th June 2016, 08:32 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Tale View Post
Would you two just kiss already?

What stands out most here is that you two seem to generally agree, but are rather occupied with snarking at one another's sarcasm.
You'll notice that it wasn't I who picked a disagreement over a detail and blew it up to accuse other people of ridiculous strawman positions. I've been mocking turtle's posting style but apparently he is unable to even see that.
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Old 8th June 2016, 08:35 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
But the crime was in the controlling part, and doing it without consent. That it involved sex is what makes it rape, but this was all about being able to do what he wanted.

He couldn't get what he wanted consensually, so he took it by force.
Yes, that's the way a lot of violent crimes work. You want X, you can't get it voluntarily, so you use force to take it.

But unlike other violent crimes, there is an old myth that in the case of sexual assault, the force is actually the motivation for the crime rather than X - that what the criminal really wants, their motivation, is the coercion of another person. People don't usually make this claim for other kinds of assault, and in many cases it clearly doesn't hold up for rape, either.
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Old 8th June 2016, 08:52 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No they just acted that way.
Nope, not even that.

You have been wrong at every single step. And yet you never learn. It's almost impressive.
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Old 8th June 2016, 09:25 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I cannot actually manage to articulate just how horrific I find the "prison rape=justice" meme.
Didn't say it was justice. Do consider it to be educational. Support education!!!!!
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Old 8th June 2016, 09:26 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
She didn't go to the party alone; she went with her sister. And though getting so drunk was not her best decision (assuming she realised how strong the alcohol was), the only consequence anybody should expect from drinking is a hangover.
Or death.... or doing something really stupid like driving a car.
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Old 8th June 2016, 09:31 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Tale View Post
Would you two just kiss already?

What stands out most here is that you two seem to generally agree, but are rather occupied with snarking at one another's sarcasm.
These two will regularly take over a thread for the purpose of Winning The Internet. Argumemnon is currently ahead 3 points, but the week is young.
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Old 8th June 2016, 09:32 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Yes, that's the way a lot of violent crimes work. You want X, you can't get it voluntarily, so you use force to take it.

But unlike other violent crimes, there is an old myth that in the case of sexual assault, the force is actually the motivation for the crime rather than X - that what the criminal really wants, their motivation, is the coercion of another person. People don't usually make this claim for other kinds of assault, and in many cases it clearly doesn't hold up for rape, either.
Your understanding of the issue "rape is a crime of violence not passion" is naive and incomplete. Sorry to be honest.
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Old 8th June 2016, 09:33 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You started the argument that a long sentence was not warranted in this case because you felt he would be unlikely to offend again for some reason. Then back that up and apply that reasoning consistently.

This fell in with the judges and fathers arguments that this isn't some thing worth ruining such a promising future over. So what is it, how much impact should raping this woman have on this guy?
Hopefully he will have no future. This" sentence" almost certainly guarantees it as it will likely be long remembered and women will know this guy's "career" is more important to "judge" and father than what was done to the woman. What should have happened to him? The same thing that would happen to an unemployed black guy who did the same thing.
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Old 8th June 2016, 09:34 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
But the crime was in the controlling part, and doing it without consent. That it involved sex is what makes it rape, but this was all about being able to do what he wanted.

He couldn't get what he wanted consensually, so he took it by force.
No it is about the sex part. If it was just the control and say he took her back there and got caught painting a mustache on her face, he probably would not have got in as much (any) trouble.
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Old 8th June 2016, 09:35 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Didn't say it was justice. Do consider it to be educational. Support education!!!!!
I would add that I also find it difficult to express how horrific I find it that some are so very flippant about it.

If punishment is warranted, it is to be meted out by the state, not by 'Bubba'. Worse still, from your terribly bloodthirsty and uncivilised point of view, what if the man you believe requires extra judicial punishment turns out to really get on with Bubba and the criminal never gets the extra punishment you think he deserves.

Yours is a poorly thought out and bloodthirsty position.
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Old 8th June 2016, 09:42 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I cannot actually manage to articulate just how horrific I find the "prison rape=justice" meme.
Actually, it does not equal justice - and I did not say it did. I said I would be happy if it occurred. Justice would be an appropriately long sentence and loss of any chance of being a successful athlete. In other words, something real being taken from him (and his ******* father).

By the by, I am fine with revenge when justice doesn't work - though it annoys me greatly when justice doesn't work. Makes me very unhappy.
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Old 8th June 2016, 09:43 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
These two will regularly take over a thread for the purpose of Winning The Internet. Argumemnon is currently ahead 3 points, but the week is young.
That's not very fair. I don't take well to being deliberatley strawmanned. It's not about winning. It's about setting things straight.
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Old 8th June 2016, 09:45 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Actually, it does not equal justice - and I did not say it did. I said I would be happy if it occurred.
Whatever your motivation, your attitude, to my mind is horrific. For what it's worth (somewhere between very little and nothing, I suspect) I cannot express adequately how broken and unworthy of consideration I consider that view and those that take it.
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Old 8th June 2016, 09:47 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Your understanding of the issue "rape is a crime of violence not passion" is naive and incomplete. Sorry to be honest.
First off, he didn't give a full description of his understanding of rape, so I don't see how you can reach this conclusion. And second, it's an ironic accusation, given that he's pointing out (correctly) that the feminist claim that rape is about power and NOT about sex is itself naive and incomplete.
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