ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 8th June 2016, 12:26 PM   #281
AdamSK
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,952
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And given the nature of frat parties that means women shouldn't drink at all at frat parties. Or only drink things that come in sealed containers. Any kind of punch or mixed drink is right out.
Or have friends who keep track of you and haul you off if you collapse. Which is what we did in college.
AdamSK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 12:30 PM   #282
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,816
Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
No, trust me - when I actually warn women not to go get drunk at frat parties, I send them studies (if they're science-minded) or newspaper accounts of incidents (if they are science-challenged).
Excellent. So, we'll be seeing these studies anytime now. My breath will remain bated.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 12:31 PM   #283
GodMark2
Master Poster
 
GodMark2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon, USA
Posts: 2,073
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So how do you measure your alcohol intake precisely at parties? Mixing drinks that are stronger than they seem is a college tradition after all.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And given the nature of frat parties that means women shouldn't drink at all at frat parties. Or only drink things that come in sealed containers. Any kind of punch or mixed drink is right out.
Answering his own questions before he's asked them, and then asking them anyway?
__________________
Knowing that we do not know, it does not necessarily follow that we can not know.
GodMark2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 12:32 PM   #284
AdamSK
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,952
Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Excellent. So, we'll be seeing these studies anytime now. My breath will remain bated.
Is that your way of asking for evidence to back up some specific claim I've made?

Perhaps a more direct and less sarcastic request? Perhaps be specific about what correlations you would like confirmed?
AdamSK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 12:39 PM   #285
rwguinn
Penultimate Amazing
 
rwguinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes
Posts: 11,104
Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Drinking enough to have a 0.24 BAC.
How many falling-down drunk males are assaulted sexually after parties?
Why should females of the species be required to behave in a more mature manner than their male counterparts?
Why do drunk males get dragged off and covered with a blanket in a spare room by their buddies, while drunk women get dragged off behind a dumpster and covered with a male sometimes while their buddies cheer, watch, or ignore?
__________________
"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
"
I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275
rwguinn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 12:39 PM   #286
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,816
Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Is that your way of asking for evidence to back up some specific claim I've made?

Perhaps a more direct and less sarcastic request? Perhaps be specific about what correlations you would like confirmed?
The ones you mentioned in your post would be fine, thanks.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 12:52 PM   #287
AdamSK
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,952
Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
How many falling-down drunk males are assaulted sexually after parties?
I am personally acquainted with three.

I didn't let my male friends go alone to these parties in college, either.
AdamSK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 12:53 PM   #288
AdamSK
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,952
Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
The ones you mentioned in your post would be fine, thanks.
If you can't be arsed to ask for specifically what you want, I can't be arsed to give you studies that you will immediately goalpost away.
AdamSK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 01:10 PM   #289
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,929
Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
How many falling-down drunk males are assaulted sexually after parties?
I don't have numbers (and you don't have numbers for women), but it's not zero.

Quote:
Why should females of the species be required to behave in a more mature manner than their male counterparts?
There is no requirement here. There is a question of advisability, though. It's advisable that neither men nor women get black-out drunk. It's more dangerous for women than for men, partly because in general women are physically weaker than men. This reality may be uncomfortable, but denying it is not wisdom, but folly.

Quote:
Why do drunk males get dragged off and covered with a blanket in a spare room by their buddies, while drunk women get dragged off behind a dumpster and covered with a male sometimes while their buddies cheer, watch, or ignore?
What happened to the woman's buddies?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 01:11 PM   #290
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,816
Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
If you can't be arsed to ask for specifically what you want, I can't be arsed to give you studies that you will immediately goalpost away.
I will? Do you have evidence of that supposition as well?

Oh well, I'll just quote a couple more posts.
Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Are you disputing the variety of studies that strongly correlate alcohol use with sexual assault?
Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
No, trust me - when I actually warn women not to go get drunk at frat parties, I send them studies (if they're science-minded) or newspaper accounts of incidents (if they are science-challenged).
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 02:00 PM   #291
AdamSK
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,952
That's specific enough. How about three?
AdamSK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 02:00 PM   #292
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 12,138
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Okay, fair enough. Perhaps I was being defensive.
No worries. I could have done a better job of making myself clear.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 02:02 PM   #293
Corsair 115
Penultimate Amazing
 
Corsair 115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,519
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Take it up with those so quick to go after her for "bad decisions".

Getting drunk to the point of passing out is a bad decision. Now, a bad decision doesn't mean someone deserves something bad happening to them as a result. But that bad decision nevertheless places one at greater risk of encountering a bad outcome (of various types, up to potentially death).
__________________
"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve
to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and
one which we intend to win."

Last edited by Corsair 115; 8th June 2016 at 02:05 PM.
Corsair 115 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 02:05 PM   #294
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 12,138
Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
How can I possibly dispute that which has not been presented?

What I am in dispute with are the condescending, evidence-free "warnings" you and yours are so kind to offer women in an effort to prevent rapists from attacking them.

This new temperance movement with the sole intention to reduce rape is admirable...even if it will do little to nothing to reduce rape.
This whole disturbing line of debate pre-supposes that the rapist in question wouldn't have committed the rape regardless of how drunk or sober his victim was.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 02:09 PM   #295
Caper
Philosopher
 
Caper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,729
Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
How many falling-down drunk males are assaulted sexually after parties?
Why should females of the species be required to behave in a more mature manner than their male counterparts?
Why do drunk males get dragged off and covered with a blanket in a spare room by their buddies, while drunk women get dragged off behind a dumpster and covered with a male sometimes while their buddies cheer, watch, or ignore?
Mother nature is not fair.
Caper is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 02:13 PM   #296
Jrrarglblarg
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,673
Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
How many falling-down drunk males are assaulted sexually after parties?
Why should females of the species be required to behave in a more mature manner than their male counterparts?
Why do drunk males get dragged off and covered with a blanket in a spare room by their buddies, while drunk women get dragged off behind a dumpster and covered with a male sometimes while their buddies cheer, watch, or ignore?
In my experience, males foolish enough to pass out at frat parties wake up with dicks drawn all over their face in Sharpie.
Jrrarglblarg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 02:15 PM   #297
Caper
Philosopher
 
Caper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,729
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
This whole disturbing line of debate pre-supposes that the rapist in question wouldn't have committed the rape regardless of how drunk or sober his victim was.
Can you clairify what you mean.
Caper is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 02:22 PM   #298
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 12,138
Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Can you clairify what you mean.
The argument is that the victim shouldn't have gotten blackout drunk, with the implication being that she bears partial responsibility for her rape.

There is no reason to believe that had she been less drunk or even sober that the rapist who targeted and raped her wouldn't have raped her anyway.

Therefore, her level of intoxication is irrelevant.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 02:33 PM   #299
Corsair 115
Penultimate Amazing
 
Corsair 115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,519
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
The argument is that the victim shouldn't have gotten blackout drunk, with the implication being that she bears partial responsibility for her rape.

Repeating: Getting drunk to the point of passing out is a bad decision. Now, a bad decision doesn't mean someone deserves something bad happening to them as a result. But that bad decision nevertheless places one at greater risk of encountering a bad outcome (of various types, up to potentially death).


Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Therefore, her level of intoxication is irrelevant.

It is relevant in that someone conscious and in reasonable possession their faculties can take action to prevent the situation from unfolding. Yelling for help, fighting back, attempting to flee, all are actions that come to mind. An unconscious person is incapable of doing any of these. An unconscious person has placed themselves at greater risk, and is essentially is relying on the goodwill of others—that is something of a crapshoot.

(Once again, a bad decision doesn't mean someone deserves something bad happening to them as a result. But that bad decision nevertheless places one at greater risk of encountering a bad outcome. From a purely personal safety standpoint, getting drunk to the point of passing out is simply not a good idea.)
__________________
"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve
to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and
one which we intend to win."
Corsair 115 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 02:36 PM   #300
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 11,741
Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
How many falling-down drunk males are assaulted sexually after parties?
Why should females of the species be required to behave in a more mature manner than their male counterparts?
Why do drunk males get dragged off and covered with a blanket in a spare room by their buddies, while drunk women get dragged off behind a dumpster and covered with a male sometimes while their buddies cheer, watch, or ignore?
With due respect, women shouldn't have to behave differently than men. That is, were the world ideal, this wouldn't be the case. As it is (at least, according to those to whom you are responding[1]), the world is less than ideal and a drunk woman is much more likely to get assaulted than a sober woman or a drunk man.

[1] I tend to think that what I've said is perfectly true. I'm not sure the odds are so bad that I'd call a woman stupid for getting drunk among strangers, but I do think that the probability of a drunk woman getting raped is much higher than that of either a sober woman or a drunk man. It is, of course, a situation that we should work to change, but that's how it is now.

Last edited by phiwum; 8th June 2016 at 02:47 PM.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 02:43 PM   #301
Corsair 115
Penultimate Amazing
 
Corsair 115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,519
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
...but I do think that the probability of a drunk woman getting raped is much higher than that of either a sober woman or a drunk woman. It is, of course, a situation that we should work to change, but that's how it is now.

Criminals, like most people, prefer the path of least resistance, and will select, all other factors being equal, the easiest target. A very drunk or incapacitated person is obviously a very easy target.
__________________
"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve
to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and
one which we intend to win."
Corsair 115 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 02:44 PM   #302
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 11,741
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
The argument is that the victim shouldn't have gotten blackout drunk, with the implication being that she bears partial responsibility for her rape.

There is no reason to believe that had she been less drunk or even sober that the rapist who targeted and raped her wouldn't have raped her anyway.

Therefore, her level of intoxication is irrelevant.
With due respect, I find the highlighted bit hard to believe. I don't mean to deny that what the rapist did was a horrible thing. It was a very bad thing to do, and his drunkenness does not excuse the act.

But how can we determine whether or not he would have done the same thing to a sober woman? Surely, there were many women at the party less drunk than the woman he attacked. There were many conscious, though intoxicated, women I'm sure. Why would you suggest that he would have been equally likely to have raped her had she been sober?

Such remarkable counterfactual reasoning surely requires some argument, don't you think?
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 02:50 PM   #303
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 11,741
Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Criminals, like most people, prefer the path of least resistance, and will select, all other factors being equal, the easiest target. A very drunk or incapacitated person is obviously a very easy target.
I've edited my post from its previous incoherence, which you quoted. I meant to say that both sober (and less drunk) women and very drunk men are less at risk than a very drunk woman.

It's not fair and it's something that ought to change, but that is currently how it is. It is not misogyny to point out this unfortunate fact, nor is it an excuse for rape.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 02:58 PM   #304
Corsair 115
Penultimate Amazing
 
Corsair 115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,519
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I've edited my post from its previous incoherence, which you quoted.

I was only adding what I think is rather relevant point. Criminals will, all other things being equal, select the easiest target. Very drunk or incapacitated people are the easiest target for a crime, be that crime robbery, assault, or sexual assault.


Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I meant to say that both sober (and less drunk) women and very drunk men are less at risk than a very drunk woman.

Depends on which (crime) risk you are talking about. (Presumably, given the topic of this thread, you mean sexual assault.)
__________________
"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve
to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and
one which we intend to win."
Corsair 115 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 02:58 PM   #305
Sabrina
Wicked Lovely
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 9,810
Someone posted this article on my Facebook wall, and it rather starkly highlights the utter hypocrisy of the judge in Brock Turner's case:

The facts: a 19 year old young man, Corey Batey, who was a standout football player at Vanderbilt, raped an unconscious woman in a dorm room. There was a ton of evidence of his guilt (much like Turner's case where there were eyewitnesses to his crime); security footage of the woman being carried into the room, as well as cellphone photos and video of the actual assault. Both Batey and his victim were so drunk neither of them (supposedly) remembers the actual assault. Batey was sentenced to a minimum sentence of 15 to 25 years in prison, unlike Turner's pathetic six month sentence. Both men were the same age, both were standout athletes, both attending prestigious schools, and yet their sentences were very different. Their main difference? Turner is white, and Batey is black.

There you go, all you doubters that race never affects sentencing in cases like this. Batey and Turner have almost identical cases, were the same age when they committed their crime, and were star athletes at their respective schools, yet Batey gets 15-25 years while Turner gets SIX MONTHS? How some of you can continue to deny that Turner's case was a travesty of justice is utterly beyond me.
Sabrina is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 03:02 PM   #306
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 11,741
Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
I was only adding what I think is rather relevant point. Criminals will, all other things being equal, select the easiest target. Very drunk or incapacitated people are the easiest target for a crime, be that crime robbery, assault, or sexual assault.
Right, your response was consistent with my correction. I was merely pointing out that the quoted portion of my post was incoherent and that I had fixed the incoherence.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 03:05 PM   #307
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 11,741
Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
There you go, all you doubters that race never affects sentencing in cases like this. Batey and Turner have almost identical cases, were the same age when they committed their crime, and were star athletes at their respective schools, yet Batey gets 15-25 years while Turner gets SIX MONTHS? How some of you can continue to deny that Turner's case was a travesty of justice is utterly beyond me.
To be perfectly fair, you have not shown that race affected either sentence. Different judges, different decisions.

That's not to say that race is irrelevant, but rather that the only way to make the case you want to make is by statistical evidence (which, I think, is in your favor). Or, perhaps, to find two judgements by the exact same judge and in which the only difference is race, but of course that is extraordinarily unlikely.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 03:12 PM   #308
Corsair 115
Penultimate Amazing
 
Corsair 115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,519
Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
There you go, all you doubters that race never affects sentencing in cases like this.

Who has claimed that in this thread?

(Also, will you continue your analysis to find cases where women got a more lenient sentence than men for comparable crimes?)


Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
How some of you can continue to deny that Turner's case was a travesty of justice is utterly beyond me.

Someone sentenced to what many consider a lenient sentence for a crime is not something new, nor is it limited to sexual assault cases. Have we already forgotten the Ethan Couch case? He killed four people in a drunk driving accident, but on the basis of an 'affulenza' defence he was given a sentence of ten years' probation. I remember quite a few people saying at the time that was a travesty of justice as well.
__________________
"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve
to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and
one which we intend to win."
Corsair 115 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 04:25 PM   #309
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,379
Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
No need to read minds. Yes he wanted sex, but he got it through violence and cobtrol. If it weren't for violence and control he wouldn't have had sex.

THIS, in spades!!
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 04:40 PM   #310
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 11,741
Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
No need to read minds. Yes he wanted sex, but he got it through violence and cobtrol. If it weren't for violence and control he wouldn't have had sex.
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
THIS, in spades!!
Yes, isn't this obvious? This is more or less a definition of rape.

Surely, no one doubts that rape involves sex without consent and hence an element of control. I should think that every native speaker of English agrees with that.

(The notion of violence is a little more vague, but I'm certainly willing to call sticking one's fingers inside an unwilling and unconscious person an act of violence.)

ETA: smartcooky, is this all you meant when you claimed, "Rape is not about sex its about violence and control"? That is, that rape necessarily involves control and (arguably) violence? Of course, it necessarily involves something of a sexual nature, too.

Last edited by phiwum; 8th June 2016 at 04:42 PM.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 05:38 PM   #311
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,379
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
ETA: smartcooky, is this all you meant when you claimed, "Rape is not about sex its about violence and control"? That is, that rape necessarily involves control and (arguably) violence? Of course, it necessarily involves something of a sexual nature, too.

Yes.

Violence and control are a key part of it. Rape is quite simply is not possible without the offender controlling the victim in some way, and if they resist that control, then violence (whether it be physical, emotional or psychological) is needed to gain compliance. The argument that the victim in this case was blacked-out drunk and therefore there was no control or violence simply doesn't wash. The Law is clear on this, if a person is unable to consent, that means there is NO consent, and the offender has full control.

Also, those who say its just feminists making this claiming are wrong. Pretty much any reputable clinical or criminal psychologist will tell you the same thing.
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

Last edited by smartcooky; 8th June 2016 at 05:41 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 05:47 PM   #312
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 11,741
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yes.

Violence and control are a key part of it. Rape is quite simply is not possible without the offender controlling the victim in some way, and if they resist that control, then violence (whether it be physical, emotional or psychological) is needed to gain compliance. The argument that the victim in this case was blacked-out drunk and therefore there was no control or violence simply doesn't wash. The Law is clear on this, if a person is unable to consent, that means there is NO consent, and the offender has full control.

Also, those who say its just feminists making this claiming are wrong. Pretty much any reputable clinical or criminal psychologist will tell you the same thing.
It is obvious that lack of consent is an essential part of rape, just as it is obvious that sexual activity is also an essential part of rape. If that's all you meant, then your statement was half right (up to the not about sex part).
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 05:47 PM   #313
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19,318
How much leeway do judges have in cases like this? Six months does seem awfully lenient, but how does it compare to others?


I look at this case and see a pretty serious crime, but, as rapes go, it could be a lot worse. In other words, if the law allows for a six month sentence for rape, I'm trying to imagine what sort of rape case would be appropriate for such a light sentence. I think the best answer would be that rape should never be punished so lightly, but if you were to accept the premise, which is apparently present in the law, that it ever could be punished so lightly, this one seems a candidate for light sentencing.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 05:52 PM   #314
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 11,741
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
How much leeway do judges have in cases like this? Six months does seem awfully lenient, but how does it compare to others?


I look at this case and see a pretty serious crime, but, as rapes go, it could be a lot worse. In other words, if the law allows for a six month sentence for rape, I'm trying to imagine what sort of rape case would be appropriate for such a light sentence. I think the best answer would be that rape should never be punished so lightly, but if you were to accept the premise, which is apparently present in the law, that it ever could be punished so lightly, this one seems a candidate for light sentencing.
In this case, there was no penile penetration. Does that (or should that) make a difference?

I'm not sure that it should.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 06:04 PM   #315
Jules Galen
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
Someone posted this article on my Facebook wall, and it rather starkly highlights the utter hypocrisy of the judge in Brock Turner's case:

The facts: a 19 year old young man, Corey Batey, who was a standout football player at Vanderbilt, raped an unconscious woman in a dorm room. There was a ton of evidence of his guilt (much like Turner's case where there were eyewitnesses to his crime); security footage of the woman being carried into the room, as well as cellphone photos and video of the actual assault. Both Batey and his victim were so drunk neither of them (supposedly) remembers the actual assault. Batey was sentenced to a minimum sentence of 15 to 25 years in prison, unlike Turner's pathetic six month sentence. Both men were the same age, both were standout athletes, both attending prestigious schools, and yet their sentences were very different. Their main difference? Turner is white, and Batey is black.

There you go, all you doubters that race never affects sentencing in cases like this. Batey and Turner have almost identical cases, were the same age when they committed their crime, and were star athletes at their respective schools, yet Batey gets 15-25 years while Turner gets SIX MONTHS? How some of you can continue to deny that Turner's case was a travesty of justice is utterly beyond me.
I'm not saying that race doesn't matter - I certainly think it does. However, what Corey Batey did was a hell of a lot more serious that what happened at Stanford...so, I must disagree that the cases were "almost identical".

http://www.tennessean.com/story/news...ey=&autologin=

Here is a complete list of charges and jury verdicts for Cory Batey:


Count 1: aggravated rape, penetration of vagina with fingers; guilty of aggravated sexual battery

Count 2: aggravated rape, penetration of anus with fingers; guilty

Count 3: aggravated rape, fellatio on mouth; guilty of attempted aggravated rape

Count 4: aggravated rape, penetration of vagina with penis; guilty of attempted aggravated rape

Count 5: criminal responsibility for Brandon E. Banks penetrating anus with object; guilty of facilitation of aggravated rape

Count 6: aggravated sexual battery, criminal responsibility for Banks touching genital area; guilty

Count 7: aggravated sexual battery, Batey placing his buttocks on face; guilty

WTF? Why the Butt in the Face?
Jules Galen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 06:13 PM   #316
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
In this case, there was no penile penetration. Does that (or should that) make a difference?

I'm not sure that it should.
What did he do to her? What was he found guilty of?
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 06:50 PM   #317
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19,318
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
In this case, there was no penile penetration. Does that (or should that) make a difference?

I'm not sure that it should.
I think it should. One of the horrors of rape is that the victim might end up pregnant with the rapist's child. Can't happen in this case. The victim could end up with a sexually transmitted disease. Extremely unlikely without penetration.


ETA: And, apparently, it's pretty important in the eyes of the law, too. Turner wasn't convicted of rape. That charge had been dropped.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 8th June 2016 at 07:09 PM.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 06:51 PM   #318
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,929
Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
Both men were the same age, both were standout athletes, both attending prestigious schools, and yet their sentences were very different. Their main difference? Turner is white, and Batey is black.
Back up a second. I absolutely agree that the difference in sentencing points to an unfairness, but is race really the only factor here? It seems likely to me that wealth might be a major factor as well. Was Batey similarly wealthy as Turner, or was there a wealth disparity? Not that discrimination on the basis of wealth is OK, but if we want to fix the problem, then we ought to make sure we understand what exactly needs fixing.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 06:55 PM   #319
Jules Galen
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Back up a second. I absolutely agree that the difference in sentencing points to an unfairness, but is race really the only factor here? It seems likely to me that wealth might be a major factor as well. Was Batey similarly wealthy as Turner, or was there a wealth disparity? Not that discrimination on the basis of wealth is OK, but if we want to fix the problem, then we ought to make sure we understand what exactly needs fixing.
Wow! You never miss an opportunity to get it wrong!
Jules Galen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2016, 06:58 PM   #320
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,929
Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Wow! You never miss an opportunity to get it wrong!
So how did I get it wrong? Details, please.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:49 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.