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Old 26th April 2019, 04:01 PM   #41
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by Daily Mail
...Most of the dismissed cases involved drug charges, according to the records, obtained by the Dallas Morning News.

Four of the cases were connected to two men Guyger and another officer arrested for drug-related offenses after a January 25 traffic stop.

James Thomas and Thirley Lewis were pulled over for failure to signal that day. A sworn affidavit shows Guyger was the officer who searched the men's car and found a clear plastic bag with 'suspected marijuana' on the front passenger floorboard and a baggie of 'suspected crack cocaine' on the front passenger seat.

Former district attorney Faith Johnson dropped seven of the cases involving Guyger. She asked a judge to dismiss the felony cocaine charge against Thomas in November, stating, 'After further investigation, the State has decided not to proceed with prosecution,' court records show, according to the Dallas Morning News.

Newly-elected district attorney John Creuzot, who promised to reform the city's criminal justice system during his campaign, dismissed the other two cases involving Guyger after he took office in January.

Only one of the cases that were dismissed specifically cited Guyger's criminal charges as the reason with an unnamed county prosecutor stating he or she was declining to move forward because Guyger had been accused of 'murdering an innocent man in his own home.'

Dallas defense attorney Chris Knox told the Dallas News dismissing cases involving indicted officers is normal because their criminal charges against cops make put prosecutors in a bind when deciding whether or not to use their testimony for criminal trials involving suspects they've arrested.

'It is entirely normal for the district attorney's office to be wary of calling that officer as a witness against another defendant,' Knox said...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...allas-cop.html
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Old 26th April 2019, 10:40 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I find this really strange. One for the fact that she is still innocent of any crime in the eyes of the criminal justice system and two what bearing does her charges have on the past arrests?
I think the fact that she was fired by the police department would be a major hiccup with her testimony in the eyes of any judge or jury. That she has some pretty serious charges against her would also be an issue.
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Old 26th April 2019, 11:51 PM   #43
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Thanks for the replies. I can understand the reasoning now.
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Old 30th April 2019, 06:31 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by WFAA 8 ABC News
For the first time, the public can now hear the 911 call Amber Guyger made moments after she shot Botham Jean. WFAA-TV obtained a copy, which until now, not even the family has heard...

"This is an off duty officer," Guyger tells the operator. "Can I get, I need to get EMS."

"Do you need police as well or just EMS?" the operator responds.

"Yes, I need both," Guyger says, heavily breathing.

When the operator asks her where she's at, it sounds like she is checking the apartment number and realizes she's not in hers.

"What’s going on?" the operator asks.

"I thought I was in my apartment and I shot a guy thinking he was, thinking it was my apartment," Guyger says.

"You shot someone?" the operator asks.

"I thought it was my apartment. I'm ******," Guyger responds. "Oh my God. I'm sorry."...
https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/sp...6-141ffabb44a1
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Old 30th April 2019, 07:08 AM   #45
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I literally bought a new deadbolt because of this bizarre story. Not because I specifically think a confused, sleepy cop is going to come in and shoot me, but just because it seems like freaking anything is possible. Best have more than one deadbolt.
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Old 30th April 2019, 07:16 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I literally bought a new deadbolt because of this bizarre story. Not because I specifically think a confused, sleepy cop is going to come in and shoot me, but just because it seems like freaking anything is possible. Best have more than one deadbolt.
You missed the point of the story. Buy a gun, and keep it pointed at the door at all times. Fire at the first jiggle and say you were tired, but actually in your own home. Done and done.

Alternatively, B&E guys on the forum should pack one when burglarizing. Say you were tired after a long day of robbing, yada yada yada.
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Old 30th April 2019, 07:32 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You missed the point of the story. Buy a gun, and keep it pointed at the door at all times. Fire at the first jiggle and say you were tired, but actually in your own home. Done and done.
Also try really, really, really hard to not be black while doing any of that.
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Old 30th April 2019, 07:39 AM   #48
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The 911 call will certainly help her case.
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Old 30th April 2019, 08:42 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The 911 call will certainly help her case.
not really. it proves negligence at the least. the time to check the apartment number was before even putting a hand on the gun. especially while standing on a red mat that your own apartment doesn't have.
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Old 30th April 2019, 08:56 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
1/ Criminal prosecutions, especially in high-profile cases, take a long time in the U.S. Both sides get to conduct thorough investigations, question witnesses, hire experts, examine evidence etc. before trial. 2/ The past arrests require her testimony at trial. The fact that she's charged with murder certainly raises doubts about her judgment and integrity.
And of course as no longer employed as a police officer it might be harder to get her to testify when it is not part of her job. So the defense doesn't take the first plea deal and it is too much hassle for minor possession cases to prosecute them.
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Old 30th April 2019, 10:09 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The 911 call will certainly help her case.
How?
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Old 30th April 2019, 10:11 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I literally bought a new deadbolt because of this bizarre story. Not because I specifically think a confused, sleepy cop is going to come in and shoot me, but just because it seems like freaking anything is possible. Best have more than one deadbolt.
Remember to use it and the door viewer (get one of those, too, if you don't have one). Her account is that she just pushed on the door and it opened. The alternate account is that he heard noises at his door and opened it himself. Either way, an unlocked deadbolt wouldn't have saved him.
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Old 30th April 2019, 10:18 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
How?
It does help assuage the argument that she went their deliberately to kill him. But I don't think that was a very commonly held belief.

On the other hand, it supports the contention that she mistakingly went to the wrong apartment and killed the person who lived there. Then again, I think that is generally stipulated by everyone involved, so not a whole lot learned there.

She went to an apartment that was not hers, and when the door opened, she shot the guy that lived there.

"These are the facts, and they are not disputed."
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Old 30th April 2019, 10:23 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
It does help assuage the argument that she went their deliberately to kill him.
That only matters to the In Mens Rea fetishist who think it's not murder/manslaughter/crime unless you submit a notarized "Intent to Murder" form with the city 30 days out.

The fact that she freaked out after she did what she did means less then nothing to me.

As you say, it's more a confession than an excuse.
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Old 30th April 2019, 10:42 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That only matters to the In Mens Rea fetishist who think it's not murder/manslaughter/crime unless you submit a notarized "Intent to Murder" form with the city 30 days out.

The fact that she freaked out after she did what she did means less then nothing to me.

As you say, it's more a confession than an excuse.
Subject for discussion: If she had stepped out of the apartment and pulled the door closed after she shot him, would she ever have been caught? How long would it have taken? There were no security cameras, and even if neighbors had heard shots, they didn't see anything. She could have claimed that she went home to her unit, heard "what sounded like shots," and went upstairs to investigate. If neighbors peered out they would have seen a uniformed police officer investigating a suspicious noise. I suspect that we could be in a different place today if she had kept her wits about her. (Of course, if she had any wits she wouldn't have shot anybody in the first place.)
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Old 30th April 2019, 10:45 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Subject for discussion: If she had stepped out of the apartment and pulled the door closed after she shot him, would she ever have been caught?
Assuming no other majors facts (for instance that the police department doesn't keep track of individual rounds and she wouldn't have to account for the two missing rounds in her service sidearms) probably not.
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Old 30th April 2019, 10:48 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Subject for discussion: If she had stepped out of the apartment and pulled the door closed after she shot him, would she ever have been caught? How long would it have taken? There were no security cameras, and even if neighbors had heard shots, they didn't see anything. She could have claimed that she went home to her unit, heard "what sounded like shots," and went upstairs to investigate. If neighbors peered out they would have seen a uniformed police officer investigating a suspicious noise. I suspect that we could be in a different place today if she had kept her wits about her. (Of course, if she had any wits she wouldn't have shot anybody in the first place.)
I think she might have to explain shells fired from her weapon and residue on her hands. Ballistics on the bullet would match her weapon, which would be dirty and missing a couple rounds.

Someone was recording her making the 911 call, so were evidently out in the hall fast. How quickly she got up there without being seen would cause enough suspicion to check her weapon.
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Old 30th April 2019, 12:30 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I literally bought a new deadbolt because of this bizarre story. Not because I specifically think a confused, sleepy cop is going to come in and shoot me, but just because it seems like freaking anything is possible. Best have more than one deadbolt.
BREAKING NEWS:

Man burns in apartment, unable to open 3rd deadbolt, blames Amber Guyger.
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Old 30th April 2019, 02:25 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
BREAKING NEWS:

Man burns in apartment, unable to open 3rd deadbolt, blames Amber Guyger.
No kidding, I have had to fight with customers about putting a deadbolt in which requires a key from both sides. I ask them to envision trying to escape from a fire and yelling out 'honey, have you seen my keys?'
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Old 30th April 2019, 02:38 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
How?
It totally supports her story of being tired and going to the wrong apartment.

I think an objective jury will be influenced in her favor by the 911 recording.

If there was any doubt that Guyger made a mistake, the 911 call will erase it for most people.

However, I still don't know how much leeway the jury will have regarding murder/manslaughter/etc.

I have forgotten what the law is in Texas around a murder charge..
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Old 30th April 2019, 02:40 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No kidding, I have had to fight with customers about putting a deadbolt in which requires a key from both sides. I ask them to envision trying to escape from a fire and yelling out 'honey, have you seen my keys?'
That's crazy.
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Old 30th April 2019, 02:47 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
That's crazy.
Its usually doors with decorative glass inserts. They theorize that someone will break through two layers of glass and reach in to turn the deadbolt by hand. Some worry about toddlers locking people out. Both are possible, but getting trapped inside during an emergency trumps those concerns, IMO
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Old 30th April 2019, 03:18 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
It totally supports her story of being tired and going to the wrong apartment.
well, of course it does. that's her story.
if she really thought she was in her own apartment and being robbed, when asked, her immediate response should have been 1378. not, hold on let me look. as far as she knew, she shot a perp in her own apartment. for no reason since she had the ability to retreat.
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Old 30th April 2019, 03:26 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
well, of course it does. that's her story.
if she really thought she was in her own apartment and being robbed, when asked, her immediate response should have been 1378. not, hold on let me look. as far as she knew, she shot a perp in her own apartment. for no reason since she had the ability to retreat.
Nope.

She knows she is not in her apartment by the furniture she can now see with the lights on. She immediately knows it's not 1378, before she calls 911.

She does not know which number it is until she looks at the door, prompted by the dispatcher.
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Old 30th April 2019, 03:39 PM   #65
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I believe that she thought she was in her apartment. I also believe she shot him dead because she wanted to, not because she was even a little bit in fear of anything. Murder 2
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Old 30th April 2019, 03:47 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Nope.

She knows she is not in her apartment by the furniture she can now see with the lights on. She immediately knows it's not 1378, before she calls 911.

She does not know which number it is until she looks at the door, prompted by the dispatcher.
by that count she would have know by the red mat in a lit hallway as opposed to furniture in a dark room.
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Old 30th April 2019, 04:06 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
...Someone was recording her making the 911 call, so were evidently out in the hall fast...
You are talking about Bunny filming Guyger on the phone. It wasn't fast at all. By the time Bunny started filming the medics and police were already inside the apartment working on Jean. At that point I don't see why Guyger would still be on the phone to 911. Instead she is probably calling family and maybe close friends. That's why she's pacing in the hallway instead of being still inside Jean's apartment.

My estimate would be that Bunny starts filming about 6-8 minutes after the shots are fired.
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Old 30th April 2019, 04:11 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
by that count she would have know by the red mat in a lit hallway as opposed to furniture in a dark room.
She doesn't notice until after the shooting, when she turns the lights on, imo.

Prior to that, she was still loopy from lack of sleep and did not notice the door number or mat.

The "burglar in her home", woke her up and she was focused on him at that point.

She's still guilty though.

She'll still do many years in jail.
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Old 30th April 2019, 04:13 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You are talking about Bunny filming Guyger on the phone. It wasn't fast at all. By the time Bunny started filming the medics and police were already inside the apartment working on Jean. At that point I don't see why Guyger would still be on the phone to 911. Instead she is probably calling family and maybe close friends. That's why she's pacing in the hallway instead of being still inside Jean's apartment.

My estimate would be that Bunny starts filming about 6-8 minutes after the shots are fired.
Has she said how long she or anyone else was in the hall before filming? I'm not confident the halls remained deserted right after the shots
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Old 30th April 2019, 04:19 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Has she said how long she or anyone else was in the hall before filming? I'm not confident the halls remained deserted right after the shots
It doesn't appear that the shots were heard by very many people?

Did anyone other than Guyger call 911?

Guyger would only need to be slightly past the doorway to have the sound of the gunshots greatly reduced. as far as the outside world is concerned.

I think shots fired two feet outside the doorway would be heard by a lot more people than shots fired two feet inside the doorway.
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Old 30th April 2019, 04:30 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Has she said how long she or anyone else was in the hall before filming? I'm not confident the halls remained deserted right after the shots
She claims to be the only person who filmed Guyger at all. That is probably true. Her film doesn't show anyone other than Guyger, and you don't hear anyone else (witnesses) speaking either.

My opinion is that Bunny never heard the gunshots or Guyger yelling to Jean. Of all the witnesses, she lives the furthest from Jean and isn't even on the same floor.
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Old 30th April 2019, 05:22 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No kidding, I have had to fight with customers about putting a deadbolt in which requires a key from both sides. I ask them to envision trying to escape from a fire and yelling out 'honey, have you seen my keys?'
Are there glass panels in the door or next to it? That would be a pretty common reason to use a double cylinder deadbolt, and keeping a spare key near the door.
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Old 30th April 2019, 05:29 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Are there glass panels in the door or next to it? That would be a pretty common reason to use a double cylinder deadbolt, and keeping a spare key near the door.
Usually, and as I said, other customers are worried that a toddler will lock them out inadvertently. IME, bad guys don't go through glass at the front door. Too noisy and obvious. There are usually many easier ways to get in quietly and inconspicuously. Can't even remember the last time I dealt with a glass break in (repair on my end), but back door kick-ins and pry-ins galore
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Old 30th April 2019, 08:03 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The 911 call will certainly help her case.
It may be more harmful than it initially appears.


Beneficial for her:

She called 911. Apparently right away. She didn't try to hide anything.

It reinforces that she really believed she was in her own apartment. She has to hold on to give the apartment number. You can hear in her voice when she says the apartment number the second time that she realizes that she is in the apartment immediately below hers. She says over and over again that she thought she was in her apartment. She thought she parked on the third floor. Near the end of the call she is obviously trying to figure out how her key opened the door if it wasn't her apartment.

At the end she says that she is so tired, supporting suspicions that it was exhaustion that caused her to miss otherwise noticeable details that resulted in her going to the wrong apartment.

She's distraught. She's remorseful. She keeps saying she is sorry.

The call appears to support her claim that she was attempting to render aid.


Unfavorable for her:

She doesn't says that the gun went off accidentally. She has never publicly made that claim and I don't think anyone believes that was the case, but the call would probably take that claim fully out of the picture.

She seems more concerned with how this will affect her than the man she shot. She keeps saying "I'm" ******, "I'm" going to lose my job, "I'm" done. She seems more sorry for herself than her victim.

Most important is what she didn't say. Although she says over and over and over that she thought she was in her apartment, she never says anything about why she actually shot him. She doesn't say that she thought he had a gun or that he was reaching for a weapon or that he was coming at her or even that the was not obeying commands. She gives no reason why deadly force would have been justified. She repeatedly says she thought she was in her apartment, which is her mind racing trying to "justify" or "explain" why this occurred. If Jean had done something that would have justified lethal force, we would expect that Guyger would have mentioned that while rationalizing her actions during the call. She did not.
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Old 1st May 2019, 05:13 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
It reinforces that she really believed she was in her own apartment.
Oh so it reinforces that thing that doesn't actually matter. Got it.
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Old 1st May 2019, 05:20 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
It may be more harmful than it initially appears.


Beneficial for her:

She called 911. Apparently right away. She didn't try to hide anything.

It reinforces that she really believed she was in her own apartment. She has to hold on to give the apartment number. You can hear in her voice when she says the apartment number the second time that she realizes that she is in the apartment immediately below hers. She says over and over again that she thought she was in her apartment. She thought she parked on the third floor. Near the end of the call she is obviously trying to figure out how her key opened the door if it wasn't her apartment.

At the end she says that she is so tired, supporting suspicions that it was exhaustion that caused her to miss otherwise noticeable details that resulted in her going to the wrong apartment.

She's distraught. She's remorseful. She keeps saying she is sorry.

The call appears to support her claim that she was attempting to render aid.


Unfavorable for her:

She doesn't says that the gun went off accidentally. She has never publicly made that claim and I don't think anyone believes that was the case, but the call would probably take that claim fully out of the picture.

She seems more concerned with how this will affect her than the man she shot. She keeps saying "I'm" ******, "I'm" going to lose my job, "I'm" done. She seems more sorry for herself than her victim.

Most important is what she didn't say. Although she says over and over and over that she thought she was in her apartment, she never says anything about why she actually shot him. She doesn't say that she thought he had a gun or that he was reaching for a weapon or that he was coming at her or even that the was not obeying commands. She gives no reason why deadly force would have been justified. She repeatedly says she thought she was in her apartment, which is her mind racing trying to "justify" or "explain" why this occurred. If Jean had done something that would have justified lethal force, we would expect that Guyger would have mentioned that while rationalizing her actions during the call. She did not.
Confirms what I already suspected. This case won't be one of determining whether Guyger was guilty or not, but of determining what exact crime she is guilty of committing. There isn't any plausible scenario in which the killing was not unlawful. Short of a massive show of incompetence by the prosecutors, Guyger will be a convicted killer by the end of the trial.

That doesn't mean there isn't going to be a contested legal process. Guyger's defense will be working to have her convicted of the least severe form of murder/manslaughter possible given the evidence presented at trial. Parsing between the various charges available involving the unlawful killing of another could be the difference of many years of prison time.

Concepts like mens rea, as perhaps indicated by the 911 call right after the fact, will likely be very important.
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Old 1st May 2019, 05:48 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
You can hear in her voice when she says the apartment number the second time that she realizes that she is in the apartment immediately below hers.
Jean's apartment was actually above hers. She had parked on the 4th floor instead of the 3rd floor.
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Old 1st May 2019, 05:49 AM   #78
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The amusing thing to me for most of these "policeman shoot unarmed non-threat civilians", is that in almost every single one of them, if a civilian would have been the one pulling the trigger, prison time would pretty much be a guarantee.

Forget about holding the police to a higher standard; it's an incredibly hard today just to hold them to our standard.
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Old 1st May 2019, 06:06 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by bignickel View Post
The amusing thing to me for most of these "policeman shoot unarmed non-threat civilians", is that in almost every single one of them, if a civilian would have been the one pulling the trigger, prison time would pretty much be a guarantee.

Forget about holding the police to a higher standard; it's an incredibly hard today just to hold them to our standard.

To be fair, I think this would be much less of a problem if policemen were expected to undertake a higher burden of risk than civilians.
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Old 1st May 2019, 06:11 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
It does help assuage the argument that she went their deliberately to kill him. But I don't think that was a very commonly held belief.
I believe that the Jean Family attorney (Merritt) and claimed witness Bunny both still think that she went to his apartment for the purpose of murdering him knowing that it was his apartment. There have been other people in the press as well who think that it was a pre-planned murder. I don't know if the 911 call transcript would change their thinking.

She did administer first aid, and in her call you can hear her speaking to Jean both as encouraging him to remain alert (stay alive) and apologizing to him. It isn't typical for a murderer to want their victim to stay alive... to be alive... to be able to testify against them in court for what they have done.

The fact that Guyger wanted Jean to be alive is contrary to the theory that she went there to murder him. It could even be argued that wanting him to be alive is contrary to intentional murder with racist intent. We have people in this forum and elsewhere saying that she only pulled the trigger because Jean was black.
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