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Old 26th July 2019, 11:06 AM   #241
Mycroft
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think that for some people actually transitioning is the best way to go. I have several transsexual friends who have come through it very well, feel settled and happy, and would do it all again if they had their lives over. They're also (mostly) absolutely horrified both by the concept of self-ID and by the current craze for transing children, for what it's worth.
I'm curious to learn what is it that exempts your transsexual friends from being mentally ill or having "autogynaephilia"?
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Old 26th July 2019, 11:11 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
You're basically just saying what I said in a different way. You think medical science is wrong based on your feelings, that trans-women aren't really women and trans-men aren't really men.
Well, are trans-neptunian objects neptunian? The reason why they're called trans-X is because they're not X. Otherwise the prefix would be redundant.
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Old 26th July 2019, 11:32 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I have no idea what you mean by that, can you explain?
I'm referring to the same thing, or something closely related, to the current discussion about gender dysphoria and mental illness.

Of course gender dysphoria is real. No one would say it is not. (Well, "no one" covers a lot of ground. No thinking person would say that it is not real.) However, a lot of people would deny that it is a mental...….illness? condition? People will dance around and apply all sorts of mental gymnastics to avoid labelling it anything all.

It's a psychological condition characterized by anxiety, depression, or other "dysphoric" symptoms associated with not wanting to identify as the sex that they actually are. It's a problem, and for some people the issues are sufficiently severe that the best way to treat the symptoms is to actually alter the body so that they are more like their preferred sex.

However, it doesn't mean that they are actually their preferred sex.

In many cases, most of us are willing to go along, even then. We'll pretend that they are their preferred sex, in many cases. In some cases, we'll go farther depending on how far the transperson has gone to try to appear as the opposite sex. Moreover, we'll enthusiastically support the idea that we should very rarely treat the two sexes differently anyway, so that the situations where it matters are very rare. The debate is about how many situations are left, where we will insist that a transperson is someone who experiences gender dysphoria, a psychological condition, rather than actually being a person of the sex they would prefer, and where we cannot or should not just pretend that the difference is unimportant.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 26th July 2019 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 26th July 2019, 11:35 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
They're mentally ill or they're perverts, and if we allow them to use the bathrooms of their choice they will take the opportunity to ogle, molest or assault young boys or girls and take the opportunity to go through the trash bins for used tampons.
<...>
Serious question, not a setup :

I'm 100% cis, straight male. Say one day I were to decided to use the ladies'. Not because I want to ogle, not because I have any ill intent, I just decide that the ladies' is more convenient for me for whatever reason. Should female reaction to me being in there be any different to the presence of the boy in the OP (assuming as claimed he's made no effort to transition other than self-identification)? I'm not trying to creep on people or rummage through waste bins - it's just me and my penis using the women's facilities to relieve myself. What's the functional difference between me and someone who simply identifies as female and takes no further steps? And does whatever that difference is warrant expecting the women in there to react differently?

This is always the sticking point for me in these threads : what precisely is being communicated by "I identify as <gender>", if all it takes to qualify is to make that statement? Like back in the 'a man gives birth' thread - what exactly is different that makes you [generic] say you're a man who gave birth vs a woman who gave birth, and if all it is is an internal frame of mind why should that cause the external world to put you in a different bucket?

And just to be clear up front, I'm all for people dressing an acting as they wish and affording them respect due all humans. Guy wants to wear a dress and not bother to shave - sure, you should have that freedom.
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Old 26th July 2019, 12:04 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, are trans-neptunian objects neptunian? The reason why they're called trans-X is because they're not X. Otherwise the prefix would be redundant.
If you want to base an argument on a group of experts who understand how adjectives work, I don't think you want to pick astronomers. The whole 'dwarf women' thing could get very messy.
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Old 26th July 2019, 12:05 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
And just to be clear up front, I'm all for people dressing an acting as they wish and affording them respect due all humans.
I really hate that we have to say this repeatedly, as if not saying it means we're bigots for disagreeing with some of the other posters here on aspects of the topic.
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Old 26th July 2019, 12:06 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
If you want to base an argument on a group of experts who understand how adjectives work, I don't think you want to pick astronomers. The whole 'dwarf women' thing could get very messy.
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Old 26th July 2019, 12:07 PM   #248
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Old 26th July 2019, 12:16 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, are trans-neptunian objects neptunian? The reason why they're called trans-X is because they're not X. Otherwise the prefix would be redundant.
The prefix is needed only when clarification is needed. One can talk of lunar orbit or for further precision use Translunar orbit or Cislunar orbit.
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Old 26th July 2019, 12:16 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I really hate that we have to say this repeatedly, as if not saying it means we're bigots for disagreeing with some of the other posters here on aspects of the topic.

This is just one of those issues I think. There are in fact some serious bigots on either side of the issue (not confining it to posters here), but also people who are either uncertain or respectfully disagree that 'trans women are women, period!'. And there are a lot of people with opposing views who can and will engage respectfully, as well as a small number of people who will, say, call a lesbian a horrible bigot for not wanting to have sex with someone packing a LadyPenis.

I'd like to think that overall the reasonable people on either side are in the majority, and it's only the lunatic fringe who get all the press. If it were to turn out that Twitter was really a representative cross section of humanity today then might as well try and summon the Great Old Ones and just be done with it all.

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Old 26th July 2019, 12:39 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
First, I don't know why you're suddenly using "marinating" as if it means something bad is going on. Second, while men and women are very different in a number of ways, our biologies are not incompatible, so I fail to see how my body is not "designed" to accomodate estrogen, for instance.

I didn't intend the word marinating in a pejorative sense, but there is indeed something bad going on. Male cells aren't designed (or didn't evolve, rather) to experience female-typical concentrations of oestrogen and progesterone. Steroid hormones are all interrelated and the balance of metabolism is very fine.

I think a lot of people in this debate don't realise that adding a bunch of steroid hormones that shouldn't be there doesn't simply make cells behave as if they were the opposite sex. The effects are wide-reaching and include an increased risk of heart disease, stroke, brittle bones and several sorts of cancer. When a very large study showed about a 25% increase in the risk of breast cancer from HRT prescribed for menopausal women, doctors pretty much stopped prescribing it. No similar large-scale studies have been done for cross-sex hormones but smaller studies put the increased risk of cancer at in women taking testosterone, for example, at 400%.

Now maybe this is still the lesser of two evils, for some people at least, but it's not a good thing to do to yourself and I totally fail to see why it should be encouraged and even celebrated.
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Old 26th July 2019, 12:47 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
There does seem to be some (and that's again my personal observations so have a go at it if you want) undercurrent of discrimination against mental illnesses with a lot of trans activists - "How dare you think that I have a mental illness!" - as if having a mental illness makes someone less valuable as some sort of value judgement.

THIS! I was talking to a transwoman friend of mine yesterday and she was expressing absolute horror at the idea of people simply being prescribed hormones and even surgery without psychological counselling and evaluation. She said the role of mental health professionals was invaluable when she transitioned back in the 1990s. She credited her psychiatrist for her coming through the whole process and becoming a stable personality at the end of it.

The howls of outrage, How dare you say I have a mental illness, that's stigmatising!" are not helpful. This is not a lifestyle choice like deciding to take up bodybuilding or lose some weight.
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Old 26th July 2019, 12:49 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post

I think a lot of people in this debate don't realise that adding a bunch of steroid hormones that shouldn't be there doesn't simply make cells behave as if they were the opposite sex. The effects are wide-reaching and include an increased risk of heart disease, stroke, brittle bones and several sorts of cancer. When a very large study showed about a 25% increase in the risk of breast cancer from HRT prescribed for menopausal women, doctors pretty much stopped prescribing it. No similar large-scale studies have been done for cross-sex hormones but smaller studies put the increased risk of cancer at in women taking testosterone, for example, at 400%.
I remember the anti-anabolic steroid campaigns targeted at teen boys in the 1990's. Now society encourages teenagers to pump themselves with dangerous synthetic steroids. How times have changed.
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Old 26th July 2019, 01:00 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
They're mentally ill or they're perverts, and if we allow them to use the bathrooms of their choice they will take the opportunity to ogle, molest or assault young boys or girls and take the opportunity to go through the trash bins for used tampons.

Some of them are. That's indisputable. Some people who genuinely think they're trans will be like that and will do that. We have seen examples. These self-ID laws have no built-in gatekeeping to screen out the problematic ones. Do you think that's OK? That the feelings of trans people are so important that it's essential to mandate that women and girls have to accept these problematic elements in their single-sex spaces?

These laws are being written on the assumption that all trans people are well-intentioned and would never do anything to make a woman embarrassed, or harm her. Your arguments seem to come from the same place. It's outrageous. Any large demographic will have problematic individuals and if they can't be screened out then the whole thing needs a re-think.


Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
It's also true that human understanding increases over time, and just because you feel one way to be correct and self-evident doesn't mean that medical science will agree with you.

Medical science knows perfectly well that male mammals cannot change into females or vice versa. We'll see where preteding biology doesn't exist to pander to the delicate feelings of the trans lobby gets them.
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Old 26th July 2019, 01:03 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
You're basically just saying what I said in a different way. You think medical science is wrong based on your feelings, that trans-women aren't really women and trans-men aren't really men.

Doesn't that about sum it up?

Transwomen aren't really women and transmen aren't really men. That ought to be self-evident. The only way you can make a ludicrous statement like that is by unilaterally changing what words mean. Medical science does not believe what you seem to think it believes.
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Old 26th July 2019, 01:04 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I'm curious to learn what is it that exempts your transsexual friends from being mentally ill or having "autogynaephilia"?

Why would you think they're exempt?
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Old 26th July 2019, 01:50 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
You're basically just saying what I said in a different way. You think medical science is wrong based on your feelings, that trans-women aren't really women and trans-men aren't really men.

Doesn't that about sum it up?
Trans women aren't really women and trans men aren't really men. That's according to medical science, your feelings may differ.
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Old 27th July 2019, 04:43 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Trans women aren't really women and trans men aren't really men. That's according to medical science, your feelings may differ.

According to science, do trans women think that they are really women? (i.e. that they can (or could at one point) get pregnant?) Do trans men think that they are really men?! (i.e. that they can produce sperm and impregnate a fertile woman.)
According to science, are trans men and women aware of the fact that all they can achieve with operations and hormone treatments is an approximation to or in the most successful cases the appearance of the opposite sex?
Does science do its utmost to make them 100% aware of this fact before they undergo treatment?

So what was your point again?!
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Old 27th July 2019, 04:51 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
According to science, do trans women think that they are really women? (i.e. that they can (or could at one point) get pregnant?) Do trans men think that they are really men?! (i.e. that they can produce sperm and impregnate a fertile woman.)
According to science, are trans men and women aware of the fact that all they can achieve with operations and hormone treatments is an approximation to or in the most successful cases the appearance of the opposite sex?
Does science do its utmost to make them 100% aware of this fact before they undergo treatment?

So what was your point again?!
Apparently now we are supposed to think so. Or be labelled "transphobe"

We are supposed to think Trans women are women

But at the end of the day Trans women aren't women and Trans men aren't men (though there seems to be such a low % amongst the extremely low % of Trans men who go on about it, who cares)
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Old 27th July 2019, 05:13 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
According to science, do trans women think that they are really women? (i.e. that they can (or could at one point) get pregnant?) Do trans men think that they are really men?! (i.e. that they can produce sperm and impregnate a fertile woman.)
According to science, are trans men and women aware of the fact that all they can achieve with operations and hormone treatments is an approximation to or in the most successful cases the appearance of the opposite sex?
Does science do its utmost to make them 100% aware of this fact before they undergo treatment?

So what was your point again?!
My point was that trans women aren't really women and trans men aren't really men. It's not rocket science, just basic biology.
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Old 27th July 2019, 05:26 AM   #261
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Geezes these threads get a bit repetitive

End of the day, it boils down to some people think trans women are women, some don't.

I'm a don't

When someone who thinks trans women are women can actually show how get back to me.
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Old 27th July 2019, 05:33 AM   #262
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Honestly, that's probably not what this case boils down to. It's something more like everyone knows trans women aren't literally women but to a greater or lesser degree pass for women in social situations. This situation is an outlier which puts, to my mind, an unacceptable burden on a group of young women to suppress their own discomfort and pretend everything's fine.
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Old 27th July 2019, 07:05 AM   #263
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Isn't it marvelous how the problem of this "group of young women to suppress their own discomfort and pretend everthing is fine" seems to exist in the USA and doesn't exist at all in many other countries?
I don't think that it's because we have found an ingenious practical as well as simple solution to the problem of the bigotry of these girls. I am convinced that it's because the bigotry of these little snowflakes is encouraged by all the other, powerful, right-wing Christian bigots that nobody thinks of the simple practical solution. The simple solution is not thought of because it's unwanted! It would rob them of this opportunity to pick on the poor LGBTQ kids.
Oh, the alleged "unacceptable burden" on the young women who allegedly have to "suppress their own discomfort" as if their self-righteousness isn't something that they enjoy!
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Old 27th July 2019, 07:10 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
My point was that trans women aren't really women and trans men aren't really men. It's not rocket science, just basic biology.

So you don't really have a point, but that's OK. That's what I thought.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th July 2019, 07:30 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So you don't really have a point, but that's OK. That's what I thought.
You think girls who don't want to undress in front of boys are bigoted and being put up to it by Christian fundies. You also think such girls only exist in America.

You and​ reality obviously have only a passing acquaintance, as is normal with the trans rights fundies.
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Old 27th July 2019, 07:52 AM   #266
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You appear to enjoy the delusion that this is a case about girls being forced to undress in front of boys so much that you don't even want to consider practical as well as simple solutions to the alleged problem.
We have girls who don't want to undress in front of boys in Denmark, too. So how come nobody in my country seems to have the problem that you (allegedly) have in the USA, the one that this whole thread is about? NOBODY has a problem with bathrooms being for all sexes, genders, sizes, ages and races in Denmark.
And why does your alleged point about trans and real seem to have completely evaporated in this, your latest post?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th July 2019, 07:58 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You appear to enjoy the delusion that this is a case about girls being forced to undress in front of boys so much that you don't even want to consider practical as well as simple solutions to the alleged problem.
We have girls who don't want to undress in front of boys in Denmark, too. So how come nobody in my country seems to have the problem that you (allegedly) have in the USA, the one that this whole thread is about? NOBODY has a problem with bathrooms being for all sexes, genders, sizes, ages and races in Denmark.
And why does your alleged point about trans and real seem to have completely evaporated in this, your latest post?
We're not talking about bathrooms here, we are talking about girls not wanting a boy in the girls changing room. Is this because a) the girls are bigoted, or b) being a trans woman is not the same as being a real woman and the girls know it?
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Old 27th July 2019, 08:18 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Isn't it marvelous how the problem of this "group of young women to suppress their own discomfort and pretend everthing is fine" seems to exist in the USA and doesn't exist at all in many other countries?
Is it okay to tell a country their culture is crap so long as it's a big enough country that it feels like you're punching up and not down? Are there any countries where you would feel less comfortable to tell them they needed to get over their cultural hang-ups and adopt a culture more like yours?

(Lest there be any misunderstanding on my motive for asking the question, I'm neither American nor Christian. I just have an old rule of thumb which is along the lines of when I'm tempted to say this aspect of your culture is invalid and you should get rid of it and be like us, would I feel like a dick saying the same to some tiny remote Amazonian tribe?)

PS This response is supplied to provide the thread with variety. The expected parry "why is it always the women who have to yield to what the men want?" will probably follow shortly.
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Old 27th July 2019, 08:36 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
We're not talking about bathrooms here, we are talking about girls not wanting a boy in the girls changing room.

We're not talking about bathrooms anymore?! Why not?! That seemed to be the major problem that started this thread.

Quote:
Is this because a) the girls are bigoted, or b) being a trans woman is not the same as being a real woman and the girls know it?

a) Yes, to some extent, and as I've mentioned already, prudery hasn't been entirely abolished in Denmark.
b) As I've made clear already in one or two of my latest posts, everybody knows that. So why aren't you trying to find a practical solution to the problem? Could it be because bickering about gender-dysphorics is your whole point?!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th July 2019, 08:40 AM   #270
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
According to science, do trans women think that they are really women? (i.e. that they can (or could at one point) get pregnant?) Do trans men think that they are really men?! (i.e. that they can produce sperm and impregnate a fertile woman.)
According to science, are trans men and women aware of the fact that all they can achieve with operations and hormone treatments is an approximation to or in the most successful cases the appearance of the opposite sex?
Does science do its utmost to make them 100% aware of this fact before they undergo treatment?

So what was your point again?!
The first time I participated in a JREF (it was still JREF) thread about transgenders, it took me a while to wrap my head around the positions of the mainstream trans rights advocates. What you don't seem to understand is that the answer to your first question above is "yes". That's not an exaggeration. That's not a misunderstanding. The answer is yes. They believe that trans women are really women, and trans men are really men. There's no asterisk. Let that sink in for a minute, because if you don't just take that at face value, you just won't understand the conversation. I know when I read those words the first time, I kept substituting something else in my head, because I couldn't even make sense out of those words, but I gradually realized that these people were serious.


Ok. I hope that's clear. Let's move on to your i.e. clause.

Quote:
(i.e. that they can (or could at one point) get pregnant?)

What you have to understand is that according to the orthodox trans rights position in America today, your i.e. above is erroneous. The ability to get pregnant is not a definitive characteristic of women. Men can get pregnant, too. No, I am not making this up and I am not exaggerating. According to modern American trans rights orthodoxy, men can give birth to babies.


What you are doing, according to the official position of the modern view is "conflating sex and gender". Of course, someone who is of the male biological sex cannot give birth to a baby, and someone of the female biological sex cannot impregnate a female, but that's merely biological sex. That has nothing to do with gender. The definitive characteristic of a woman is not their biological sex. The definitive characteristic is their gender. So, a person of male gender, i.e. a man, can give birth.


Again, that's not an exaggeration. That's not a straw man. That's not a misrepresentation. People really believe that, and really want the law to recognize that.


If you don't understand that, you won't understand this debate.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 27th July 2019 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 27th July 2019, 08:56 AM   #271
Strawberry
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
We're not talking about bathrooms anymore?! Why not?! That seemed to be the major problem that started this thread.




a) Yes, to some extent, and as I've mentioned already, prudery hasn't been entirely abolished in Denmark.
b) As I've made clear already in one or two of my latest posts, everybody knows that. So why aren't you trying to find a practical solution to the problem? Could it be because bickering about gender-dysphorics is your whole point?!
No we are not talking about bathrooms here. The girls in this situation are not complaining about a boy peeing in the next cubicle to them, they are complaining about a boy who self identifies as a girl being allowed into their changing room and communal shower.

And yes, there is a very obvious solution to the issue - tell the boy to use the boys changing room and shower and respect the girls privacy.
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Old 27th July 2019, 09:07 AM   #272
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
We're not talking about bathrooms anymore?! Why not?! That seemed to be the major problem that started this thread.

You've bought into the straw man. (See this post: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post12765508 )


No need to feel bad about that. It's always presented that way by trans rights supporters, and it's almost always reported that way by the media.

Dig a little bit deeper into every single case where I've followed. It's locker rooms.



In this particular case, i.e. the Council Bluffs, Iowa case, I have seen exactly two quotes from students. Those two quotes originally appeared in a WOWT newscast, and neither one was specific to the exact type of facility being referred to and those referred to bathrooms, but the policy involves all sex segregated facilities. i.e. it involves bathrooms, and locker rooms, and shared hotel rooms on overnight field trips, and sports teams, and every single situation where boys and girls are separated.
(ETA: Note correction above. I had conflated a different quote regarding school policy, which referred to all facilities including restrooms and locker rooms, with the students' quotes. Meadmaker regrets the error.)

In this specific case, I do not know if the transgender student actually requested the right to use the girls' locker room. That hasn't been reported. However, in lawsuits and protests all around the country, that's what always comes up, and that is what the girls always complain about. No, that isn't always reported by the media, or if it is, it is often listed as a secondary concern. That's why it is a straw man. The actual argument is replaced by a considerably weaker argument.


And of course, the policy must involve every single situation where girls and boys are separated. If there were any exceptions at all, then that would be saying that trans girls aren't really and truly girls. See my previous post.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 27th July 2019 at 09:36 AM.
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Old 27th July 2019, 09:10 AM   #273
dann
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Is it okay to tell a country their culture is crap so long as it's a big enough country that it feels like you're punching up and not down? Are there any countries where you would feel less comfortable to tell them they needed to get over their cultural hang-ups and adopt a culture more like yours?

1) Yes, if the culture is crap, I think it's OK to say so. I don't see why the size of the country matters.
2) In many ways, the culture of 'my' country isn't my culture. In comparison to American Evangelical culture or Trumpian Republicanism I find it acceptable in most respects, but in general, I probably wouldn't use Danish culture as something to emulate. However, religious bigotry has become fairly insignificant in Denmark, which is an aspect of Danish culture that I can definitely recommend. For a number of years, there seemed to be reason to fear that the bigotry of some Muslim immigrants might influence the relaxed Danish attitude, but most Muslims seem to adapt pretty well to Danish culture and distance themselves from religious fundamentalism. One example (Wikipedia). It was a slow process for Christian fundamentalism, so it's no surprise that it takes time for Muslim immigrants, too.

Quote:
(Lest there be any misunderstanding on my motive for asking the question, I'm neither American nor Christian. I just have an old rule of thumb which is along the lines of when I'm tempted to say this aspect of your culture is invalid and you should get rid of it and be like us, would I feel like a dick saying the same to some tiny remote Amazonian tribe?)

Again, I would probably never tell anybody to "be like us," but in a case like this one where Evangelical snowflakes are doing their utmost to do as much damage as they can to a very vulnerable minority of youngsters, I find it necessary to point out that the alleged problem is a problem only because the complainers aren't interested in a solution other than the total condemnation and probably expulsion of the sinful minority. And when I'm very familiar with an extremely simple solution to the problem, I don't see why I shouldn't refer to it.
I'm sorry, but I don't speak Amazonian, so I wouldn't be able to tell your remote tribe anything at all. However, if they were as bigoted as American fundamentalist Christians and I had access to an interpreter, I see no reason why I shouldn't tell them so.
You may think of religious bigotry as some kind of culture heritage that it's important to preserve. I don't.

Quote:
PS This response is supplied to provide the thread with variety. The expected parry "why is it always the women who have to yield to what the men want?" will probably follow shortly.

I don't see what your response has to do with variety.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th July 2019, 09:11 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I never compared a transgender person and pedophilia nor made any such inference,
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post12766031

Post #116.

The analogy you use only makes sense if one believes trans-people represent a danger to young people like pedophiles do. You used this analogy to rebut a previous analogy which compare trans-girls to overweight-girls, who may be unpopular and unwelcome but not inherently dangerous.

A common expression of prejudice against trans-people very evident in this thread and other places is to assert that their feelings of gender dysphoria are not sincere but are really just a cover for their secret desire to victimise young cis-girls.
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Old 27th July 2019, 09:14 AM   #275
dann
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
No we are not talking about bathrooms here. The girls in this situation are not complaining about a boy peeing in the next cubicle to them, they are complaining about a boy who self identifies as a girl being allowed into their changing room and communal shower.

And yes, there is a very obvious solution to the issue - tell the boy who self-identifies as a girl to use the boys changing room and shower and respect the girls privacy.

FTFY.

So "Stop being silly!", is your obvious (non-)solution.
I'm not surprised.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th July 2019, 09:24 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post

When someone who thinks trans women are women can actually show how get back to me.
Refer to my post 185 on the distinction between discussing sex and gender. Again, a lot of people dismiss that distinction, but it exists because it's a useful distinction. It wasn't just made up out of the blue to push an agenda, it was introduced to make it possible to discuss how biology interacts with social roles, which is functionally impossible without making that distinction (for example, just look at how many people in this thread are throwing around gendered terms without specifying whether they're talking about biology or social norms - it's a confusing mess). People who make that argument aren't talking about the term "woman" as a biological statement (for reference, "female" is usually reserved for that). The argument that trans women are women is a very simple one: if someone presents as a women, acts as a woman in daily life, and fulfills the roles of a woman, that person is functionally a woman. It has nothing to do with genitalia or chromosomes, it's just about how a person functions in society. This is also just the default for how people handle this in their day to day life anyway. No one checks a person's chromosomes before deciding what pronouns to use, it's always based on social presentation.

If you're the kind of person that doesn't think the distinction between sex and gender is a real thing, then obviously the position will sound like nonsense, and there really isn't much else to talk about.
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Old 27th July 2019, 09:27 AM   #277
Mycroft
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Great! Start with all volumes of Das Kapital, then The German Ideology, and then the Prison Notebooks by Gramsci. No idea how many paragraphs that is, but let me know when you're done.
Clearly to some people Marx, Engles, Gramsci and others are considered to be prophets and their writings to be scripture, but to others who do not share that religion, citing these people has no weight in forming or altering their opinions.
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Old 27th July 2019, 09:33 AM   #278
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post12766031

Post #116.

The analogy you use only makes sense if one believes trans-people represent a danger to young people like pedophiles do. You used this analogy to rebut a previous analogy which compare trans-girls to overweight-girls, who may be unpopular and unwelcome but not inherently dangerous.
Nobody compared trans-girls to pedophiles and nobody compared trans-girls to overweight-girls. You're failing at the most basic level of logic and understanding of actual arguments being made.

Let P be the powerset of people (ie the set of all subsets of the set of people). Let g ∈ P be the set of schoolgirls.
Let t ∈ P be the set of trans-girls.
Let o ∈ P be the set of overweight-girls.
Let p ∈ P be the set of pedophiles.

The question is: Should t be allowed in the locker rooms of g against the will of g?

Arcade22 argued "yes" on the basis that o is allowed in the locker rooms of g against the will of g. Implicitly arguing that there does not exist an x ∈ P such that x is not allowed in the locker rooms of g against the will of g, therefor t should also be allowed in the locker rooms of g against the will of g.

I pointed out that p is not allowed in the locker rooms of g against the will of g, showing that there does exist an x ∈ P such that x is not allowed in the locker rooms of g against the will of g.

Nobody compared t to p nor compared t to o. Now go learn some basic logic or bother someone else with this nonsense.
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Old 27th July 2019, 09:39 AM   #279
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
Refer to my post 185 on the distinction between discussing sex and gender. Again, a lot of people dismiss that distinction, but it exists because it's a useful distinction. It wasn't just made up out of the blue to push an agenda, it was introduced to make it possible to discuss how biology interacts with social roles, which is functionally impossible without making that distinction (for example, just look at how many people in this thread are throwing around gendered terms without specifying whether they're talking about biology or social norms - it's a confusing mess). People who make that argument aren't talking about the term "woman" as a biological statement (for reference, "female" is usually reserved for that). The argument that trans women are women is a very simple one: if someone presents as a women, acts as a woman in daily life, and fulfills the roles of a woman, that person is functionally a woman. It has nothing to do with genitalia or chromosomes, it's just about how a person functions in society. This is also just the default for how people handle this in their day to day life anyway. No one checks a person's chromosomes before deciding what pronouns to use, it's always based on social presentation.

If you're the kind of person that doesn't think the distinction between sex and gender is a real thing, then obviously the position will sound like nonsense, and there really isn't much else to talk about.
Woman: Adult human female.
Man: Adult human male.
Girl: Female child.
Boy: Male child.
Male: Producing the small type of gametes.
Female: Producing the large type of gametes.

You might want to look up the definitions of these words, none of them refer to gender. The only one conflating sex and gender is you.
"Trans-women are women" -> "Trans-women are adult human females" -> "Trans-women are humans who produce the large type of gametes." This statement is obviously false.
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Old 27th July 2019, 09:39 AM   #280
dann
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
You've bought into the straw man. (See this post: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post12765508 )


No need to feel bad about that. It's always presented that way by trans rights supporters, and it's almost always reported that way by the media.

Dig a little bit deeper into every single case where I've followed. It's locker rooms.

It seems to become locker rooms mainly because it's so difficult to maintain that bathrooms pose any real problem. Much the same way that Creationism turned into Intelligent Design ...


Quote:
In this particular case, i.e. the Council Bluffs, Iowa case, I have seen exactly two quotes from students. Those two quotes originally appeared in a WOWT newscast, and neither one was specific to the exact type of facility being referred to, but the policy involves all sex segregated facilities. i.e. it involves bathrooms, and locker rooms, and shared hotel rooms on overnight field trips, and sports teams, and every single situation where boys and girls are separated.

So in each and "every single situation" you have to look at the specific problem and come up with a specific solution. It only becomes an impossible task if the whole point of listing them is to make it seem impossible to solve: 'But there are so many of them!'

Quote:
In this specific case, I do not know if the transgender student actually requested the right to use the girls' locker room. That hasn't been reported. However, in lawsuits and protests all around the country, that's what always comes up, and that is what the girls always complain about. No, that isn't always reported by the media, or if it is, it is often listed as a secondary concern. That's why it is a straw man. The actual argument is replaced by a considerably weaker argument.

So could you tell us again what the actual argument is?!

Quote:
And of course, the policy must involve every single situation where girls and boys are separated. If there were any exceptions at all, then that would be saying that trans girls aren't really and truly girls. See my previous post.

Again we have "every single situation" as if it were an argument in and of itself against practical solutions and policies. (I have travelled with high-school teenagers abroad, including several times to the USA, and a policy that involves "every single situation" doesn't exist! As a teacher you sometimes have to be extremely creative to solve some of the problems that may arise. And I never had to deal with problems involving transsexuality.)
The trans girls, by the way, already know not only that they are different from the girls, they also know how they are different. See my recent posts. The trans girls also know that and how they are different from the boys, which is what you seem to be in denial about.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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