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Old 27th July 2019, 09:42 AM   #281
dann
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Clearly to some people Marx, Engles, Gramsci and others are considered to be prophets and their writings to be scripture, but to others who do not share that religion, citing these people has no weight in forming or altering their opinions.

The analogy with religion. That is so convincing.
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Old 27th July 2019, 09:44 AM   #282
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Clearly to some people Marx, Engles, Gramsci and others are considered to be prophets and their writings to be scripture, but to others who do not share that religion, citing these people has no weight in forming or altering their opinions.
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Old 27th July 2019, 10:08 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So in each and "every single situation" you have to look at the specific problem and come up with a specific solution. It only becomes an impossible task if the whole point of listing them is to make it seem impossible to solve: 'But there are so many of them!'

Spoken like a Dane. Here in America, we have lawsuits. "Creative solutions" result in large legal fees. We have policies. You follow the policy, or you get sued.*


I wish you were right, but you aren't.




Quote:
So could you tell us again what the actual argument is?!
The actual argument is that girls do not want to be seen by males when the girls are undressed, partially or fully. One could make an argument that that rarely happens in bathrooms, or that bathrooms could be easily modified so that it never happens. Apparently, that has solved that problem in Denmark, and maybe some other problems as well. So, great, it could solve one of the problems in America, too.

What about the locker rooms? And the shared hotel rooms? Because those are covered by the policy as well. See above.


Quote:
The trans girls, by the way, already know not only that they are different from the other girls, they also know how they are different. See my recent posts. The trans girls also know that and how they are different from the boys, which is what you seem to be in denial about.
Hilited word added. Your post was discriminatory the way it was written.

No, I am not exaggerating.


******************
*ETA: I want to emphasize that I'm not speaking hypothetically. You can google the lawsuits.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 27th July 2019 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 27th July 2019, 10:24 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
End of the day, it boils down to some people think trans women are women, some don't.
It would be somewhat simpler if we stopped saying "women" and unpacked the essential characteristics of the group in question. Even simpler if we limited ourselves to a particular case, e.g. "women's reproductive health."
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Old 27th July 2019, 01:35 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It seems to become locker rooms mainly because it's so difficult to maintain that bathrooms pose any real problem. Much the same way that Creationism turned into Intelligent Design ...





So in each and "every single situation" you have to look at the specific problem and come up with a specific solution. It only becomes an impossible task if the whole point of listing them is to make it seem impossible to solve: 'But there are so many of them!'




So could you tell us again what the actual argument is?!




Again we have "every single situation" as if it were an argument in and of itself against practical solutions and policies. (I have travelled with high-school teenagers abroad, including several times to the USA, and a policy that involves "every single situation" doesn't exist! As a teacher you sometimes have to be extremely creative to solve some of the problems that may arise. And I never had to deal with problems involving transsexuality.)
The trans girls, by the way, already know not only that they are different from the girls, they also know how they are different. See my recent posts. The trans girls also know that and how they are different from the boys, which is what you seem to be in denial about.

Why are you so uncomfortable trying to justify your arguments with changing rooms and communal showers and have to keep switching it to toilet cubicles. I don't think anyone is worried about toilet cubicles?

And why is this even still being argued when I posted pages back that the school has a gender neutral bathroom/shower facilities the people with dangly bits they think they shouldn't have can use?
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Old 27th July 2019, 01:40 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
It would be somewhat simpler if we stopped saying "women" and unpacked the essential characteristics of the group in question. Even simpler if we limited ourselves to a particular case, e.g. "women's reproductive health."
If someone is transgender and genuinely believes they are a woman and they aren't a jerk, then I am perfectly happy referring to them as a women, purely out of respect.

But at the end of the day referring to someone as a woman and thinking they are a woman are two different things.

And the later ain't gonna happen
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 27th July 2019, 02:48 PM   #287
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Round and round and round we go where it stops...well actually we do know: right here. this conversation never moves.

But still...a couple observations:

Can we stop arguing over what the terms woman, man, male and female mean? We all know that people on either side have different definitions and what those definitions are:

One side: Woman = female
Other side: Woman = socially woman (gender role strongly (but not 100%) correlated with female
Both sides: Female = biological term indicating XX, uterus, etc.

There's no point trying to convince the other side your definitions are correct. And it does nothing to resolve the argument.

Next, this has nothing to do, really, with how people dress. Being a trans-woman, to my limited understanding, is not a desire to wear dresses and makeup. It is having an internal image of themselves as women that does not match their physical body. the reason for the (often hyper) feminine dress and behavior is so they are perceived by others as much as possible in a way that matches their self-image. (Contrapoints addresses this in her youtube video "Gender Critical.)

There are several issues that can and should be addressed separately, but neither side seems to want to do so: sports, social interaction, bathrooms, changing rooms, swimming areas (Rolfe brought this one up in another thread.) If there is a workable solution for bathrooms, it should be pursued regardless of a solution for locker rooms or anything else. And not everything has to have the same solution. Sports for example has different concerns than social interaction.

Lost in all of this is the "self-ID" issue. It's a legitimate concern that should not be dismissed. In a video I linked to earlier, Blaire White noted that some common sense should be used by trans people. She suggests that trans people should use the restroom that matches their appearance as opposed to their identity. The implication is that at some point in transition a trans-woman would reach a point where they appear female to others. At that point they would start using the women's room. In another video, Blaire notes that she doesn't change at the gym because she will make people uncomfortable regardless of which she uses. (If she had bottom surgery, I think this would be less of an issue.

Accommodations can be made as long as BOTH sides respect and don't trivialize the concerns of the other.

One last thing: there are sick men out there. there are also sick women out there. Some of these people are going to be trans. Policy decisions should not be made because there are a few sick people out there. Dangerous predators should be identified and handled with regard to their own actions and not color any subgroups they might happen to be a member of. I bet there are a few janitors out there with dangerous fetishes. Or physicists, doctors, lawyers, housewives, construction workers...etc.
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Old 27th July 2019, 03:02 PM   #288
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
One side: Woman = female
Other side: Woman = socially woman (gender role strongly (but not 100%) correlated with female
Both sides: Female = biological term indicating XX, uterus, etc.

There's no point trying to convince the other side your definitions are correct. And it does nothing to resolve the argument.

Next, this has nothing to do, really, with how people dress. Being a trans-woman, to my limited understanding, is not a desire to wear dresses and makeup. It is having an internal image of themselves as women that does not match their physical body. the reason for the (often hyper) feminine dress and behavior is so they are perceived by others as much as possible in a way that matches their self-image. (Contrapoints addresses this in her youtube video "Gender Critical.)
That's incoherent.
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Old 27th July 2019, 03:05 PM   #289
Lithrael
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
That's incoherent.
I disagree. I think it’s a pretty good post.
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Old 27th July 2019, 06:59 PM   #290
cullennz
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Round and round and round we go where it stops...well actually we do know: right here. this conversation never moves.

But still...a couple observations:

Can we stop arguing over what the terms woman, man, male and female mean? We all know that people on either side have different definitions and what those definitions are:

One side: Woman = female
Other side: Woman = socially woman (gender role strongly (but not 100%) correlated with female
Both sides: Female = biological term indicating XX, uterus, etc.

There's no point trying to convince the other side your definitions are correct. And it does nothing to resolve the argument.

Next, this has nothing to do, really, with how people dress. Being a trans-woman, to my limited understanding, is not a desire to wear dresses and makeup. It is having an internal image of themselves as women that does not match their physical body. the reason for the (often hyper) feminine dress and behavior is so they are perceived by others as much as possible in a way that matches their self-image. (Contrapoints addresses this in her youtube video "Gender Critical.)

There are several issues that can and should be addressed separately, but neither side seems to want to do so: sports, social interaction, bathrooms, changing rooms, swimming areas (Rolfe brought this one up in another thread.) If there is a workable solution for bathrooms, it should be pursued regardless of a solution for locker rooms or anything else. And not everything has to have the same solution. Sports for example has different concerns than social interaction.

Lost in all of this is the "self-ID" issue. It's a legitimate concern that should not be dismissed. In a video I linked to earlier, Blaire White noted that some common sense should be used by trans people. She suggests that trans people should use the restroom that matches their appearance as opposed to their identity. The implication is that at some point in transition a trans-woman would reach a point where they appear female to others. At that point they would start using the women's room. In another video, Blaire notes that she doesn't change at the gym because she will make people uncomfortable regardless of which she uses. (If she had bottom surgery, I think this would be less of an issue.

Accommodations can be made as long as BOTH sides respect and don't trivialize the concerns of the other.

One last thing: there are sick men out there. there are also sick women out there. Some of these people are going to be trans. Policy decisions should not be made because there are a few sick people out there. Dangerous predators should be identified and handled with regard to their own actions and not color any subgroups they might happen to be a member of. I bet there are a few janitors out there with dangerous fetishes. Or physicists, doctors, lawyers, housewives, construction workers...etc.
I agree

And I have zero issue with "sex - female or male or in extremely rare cases who knows" and "gender - woman or man or in less rare cases only their head knows"

The problem is that there is a movement from one side trying to make the later the former

They try to equate gender with biological sex.

Being freely able to actually change the sex on your birth certificate now is a blatant example

It doesn't help that for hundreds of years the words "sex" and "gender" were interchangable

It is only relatively recently the have actually been used properly
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Old 27th July 2019, 10:38 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Spoken like a Dane. Here in America, we have lawsuits. "Creative solutions" result in large legal fees. We have policies. You follow the policy, or you get sued.*

I wish you were right, but you aren't.

I'm not right about the practical solutions? Yes, I am. If instead of simply saying, 'But there are so many!', you would list and describe them one by one, we could go through them and look for solutions.
Lawsuits exist in Denmark, too, but it's true that the legal system here doesn't encourage litigiousness to the same extent. But the major difference is that we don't have the number of aggressive Evangelicals that you have in the USA.

Quote:
The actual argument is that girls do not want to be seen by males when the girls are undressed, partially or fully. One could make an argument that that rarely happens in bathrooms, or that bathrooms could be easily modified so that it never happens. Apparently, that has solved that problem in Denmark, and maybe some other problems as well. So, great, it could solve one of the problems in America, too.

What about the locker rooms? And the shared hotel rooms? Because those are covered by the policy as well. See above.

What about them?! What is your argument for the impossibility of solving problems that might arise in those situations? I have had groups of boys and girls (17-18-year-old high school students) sharing rooms in New York, and it was no problem. I have had problems with students who couldn't go on a plane on a Saturday because of their religion (Jewish), and we found a solution. I have heard of problems with Muslims in the showers at public pools here as well as in Germany, and from what I understand, solutions were found to that problem as well. (Loincloths, I think, so you could still wash your private parts but without anybody seeing them.*)
Kids (as well as grownups) here appear to be much more sensible than in the USA, which seems to be the major obstacle to finding solutions over there. And many posters here, too, seem to be obsessed with inventing obstacles that only serve the purpose of making solutions impossible. (Like the one about hand-washing knickers in the bathroom.)

Quote:
Hilited word added. Your post was discriminatory the way it was written.

No, it wasn't. They know about the difference between themselves and girls who were born as girls. They may wish that there weren't any difference, but they are very much aware of the fact that the difference is there.

Quote:
No, I am not exaggerating.

******************
*ETA: I want to emphasize that I'm not speaking hypothetically. You can google the lawsuits.

I don't have to. We all know about the litigiousness of the USA. However, in this context it appears to be just another of those obstacles that serve the purpose of rendering practical solutions impossible.

- - - -
* I was right: From the local public swimmingpool:

Quote:
Lån evt. et lændeklæde – så står du ikke nøgen under bruseren, men overholder vores retningslinjer
Hvis du ikke vil stå nøgen under bruseren, kan du altid låne et nyvasket lændeklæde af os. Du finder dem i alle vores omklædningsrum. For mænd dækker de af rundt om lænden, og kvinder kan låne et lidt større, der også dækker brystet.
Du kan også købe et lændeklæde i vores billetkontor.
Hygiene (Frederiksberg Svømmehal)
"You may borrow a loincloth - then you won't be naked in the shower and will live up to our guidelines.
If you don't want to be naked in the shower, you can always borrow a clean loincloth from us. You can find them in all our restrooms. For men, they cover the area below the waist, and women can borrow ones that are larger so that they also cover the chest area.
You can also buy a loincloth at the ticket sale."



See??!!! ******* practical solutions!!! And this is neither brain surgery nor rocket science! Solutions are there if you are at all interested in finding them. Which many of you don't appear to be. That is the actual problem.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 27th July 2019 at 10:39 PM.
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Old 27th July 2019, 10:50 PM   #292
cullennz
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I'm not right about the practical solutions? Yes, I am. If instead of simply saying, 'But there are so many!', you would list and describe them one by one, we could go through them and look for solutions.
Lawsuits exist in Denmark, too, but it's true that the legal system here doesn't encourage litigiousness to the same extent. But the major difference is that we don't have the number of aggressive Evangelicals that you have in the USA.




What about them?! What is your argument for the impossibility of solving problems that might arise in those situations? I have had groups of boys and girls (17-18-year-old high school students) sharing rooms in New York, and it was no problem. I have had problems with students who couldn't go on a plane on a Saturday because of their religion (Jewish), and we found a solution. I have heard of problems with Muslims in the showers at public pools here as well as in Germany, and from what I understand, solutions were found to that problem as well. (Loincloths, I think, so you could still wash your private parts but without anybody seeing them.*)
Kids (as well as grownups) here appear to be much more sensible than in the USA, which seems to be the major obstacle to finding solutions over there. And many posters here, too, seem to be obsessed with inventing obstacles that only serve the purpose of making solutions impossible. (Like the one about hand-washing knickers in the bathroom.)




No, it wasn't. They know about the difference between themselves and girls who were born as girls. They may wish that there weren't any difference, but they are very much aware of the fact that the difference is there.




I don't have to. We all know about the litigiousness of the USA. However, in this context it appears to be just another of those obstacles that serve the purpose of rendering practical solutions impossible.

- - - -
* I was right: From the local public swimmingpool:



"You may borrow a loincloth - then you won't be naked in the shower and will live up to our guidelines.
If you don't want to be naked in the shower, you can always borrow a clean loincloth from us. You can find them in all our restrooms. For men, they cover the area below the waist, and women can borrow ones that are larger so that they also cover the chest area.
You can also buy a loincloth at the ticket sale."



See??!!! ******* practical solutions!!! And this is neither brain surgery nor rocket science! Solutions are there if you are at all interested in finding them. Which many of you don't appear to be. That is the actual problem.
The answer is pretty simple

Get the biologically male boys who think they should have been born female , but still have male genitalia to use the gender neutral bathroom at the school.
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 28th July 2019, 12:27 AM   #293
dann
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You didn't read Meadmaker's post 284, did you?!
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Old 28th July 2019, 12:39 AM   #294
cullennz
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You didn't read Meadmaker's post 284, did you?!
Yes I did

It has no relevance to the point


Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Spoken like a Dane. Here in America, we have lawsuits. "Creative solutions" result in large legal fees. We have policies. You follow the policy, or you get sued.*


I wish you were right, but you aren't.






The actual argument is that girls do not want to be seen by males when the girls are undressed, partially or fully. One could make an argument that that rarely happens in bathrooms, or that bathrooms could be easily modified so that it never happens. Apparently, that has solved that problem in Denmark, and maybe some other problems as well. So, great, it could solve one of the problems in America, too.

What about the locker rooms? And the shared hotel rooms? Because those are covered by the policy as well. See above.




Hilited word added. Your post was discriminatory the way it was written.

No, I am not exaggerating.


******************
*ETA: I want to emphasize that I'm not speaking hypothetically. You can google the lawsuits.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 28th July 2019 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 28th July 2019, 01:13 AM   #295
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
I disagree. I think it’s a pretty good post.
Then maybe you can explain how this isn't just incoherent rambling (as Contrapoints is known for producing), I've helpfully applied the definitions given in highlights:

Originally Posted by TomB View Post
One side: Woman = female
Other side: Woman = socially woman (gender role strongly (but not 100%) correlated with female
Both sides: Female = biological term indicating XX, uterus, etc.

There's no point trying to convince the other side your definitions are correct. And it does nothing to resolve the argument.

Next, this has nothing to do, really, with how people dress being a woman. Being a trans-woman, to my limited understanding, is not a desire to wear dresses and makeup be a woman. It is having an internal image of themselves as women performing the female gender role that does not match their physical body. the reason for the (often hyper) feminine dress and behavior being a woman is so they are perceived by others as much as possible in a way that matches their self-image. (Contrapoints addresses this in her youtube video "Gender Critical.)
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Old 28th July 2019, 05:54 AM   #296
Lithrael
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It does require allowing a flexible idea of what it is to socially be a woman, which I don’t find strange because in practice that’s how it is for cisgender women anyway. You don’t lose your woman card if you don’t wear dresses etc.
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Old 28th July 2019, 07:01 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Then maybe you can explain how this isn't just incoherent rambling (as Contrapoints is known for producing), I've helpfully applied the definitions given in highlights:
You didn’t actually replace terms with definitions. You know that right?

Dress is not gender and no one thinks it is. However dress can be used to create the visual cues typically associated with a gender. That’s why trans women tend to dress, if anything, in clothes more stereotypically feminine than biological women do. They don’t want people to think “ is that a man or a woman?” They want to be instantly identified as women by the people they encounter. Obviously, this is not easy.

By the way, I’m not quoting contrapoints here. I’m just pointing to video in which she briefly explains this particular point. The video covers s lot more ground.
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Old 28th July 2019, 07:48 AM   #298
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
You didn’t actually replace terms with definitions. You know that right?
Sure did.

Quote:
Dress is not gender and no one thinks it is. However dress can be used to create the visual cues typically associated with a gender. That’s why trans women tend to dress, if anything, in clothes more stereotypically feminine than biological women do. They don’t want people to think “ is that a man or a woman?”
Ok then, if dressing, make-up, and other typically feminine behaviour isn't a "gender role" then define "gender role." And it's not true that "no one thinks" that dressing in typically feminine or masculine fashion isn't part of "gender roles" - indeed, if you were to ask people what they understand by "gender roles" then masculine/feminine dressing would be one of the first things they think of.

Quote:
They want to be instantly identified as women people who perform a feminine gender role by the people they encounter. Obviously, this is not easy.
Seems easy enough, if you want to be recognized as someone performing the feminine gender role then all you have to do is...performing the feminine gender role. It's not just easy, it's trivial. What you mean is that it's hard to get people to adopt your special definition of "woman" as "performing the feminine gender role" - which is indeed not easy, as everyone knows that "woman" means "human female."

Quote:
By the way, I’m not quoting contrapoints here. I’m just pointing to video in which she briefly explains this particular point. The video covers s lot more ground.
I know, I've seen the video and instantly recognized the incoherence of the argument.
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Old 28th July 2019, 08:43 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
See??!!! ******* practical solutions!!! And this is neither brain surgery nor rocket science! Solutions are there if you are at all interested in finding them. Which many of you don't appear to be. That is the actual problem.
Perhaps I am being unclear. I agree, 100%, with the above paragraph.

I agree it's fairly easy to find practical solutions, but activists don't want them. Moreover, they go to court to fight them. You noted that the trans girls are of course very aware of the differences between themselves and the other girls, but if a school district takes any step whatsoever to acknowledge those differences and asks the transgirls to behave any differently than any of the other girls, they end up in court.


I wasn't always such a hard liner on this issue. Like a typical denizen of ISF, I'm pretty much a social libertarian. People should be able to do whatever they want in their personal lives. It was only when I realized that there were so many people unwilling to compromise that I decided which line to take. Eventually, a decision has to be made, and someone isn't going to like it. To me, the solution that Cullen suggested seems so obvious and so clear that there ought not be any further discussion. However, this is America, so not only has there been further discussion, those discussions have involved the term "punitive damages".


And since there's no willingness to compromise, I decided I wouldn't support any policy that required a teenage girl to take off her clothes in the presence of a biological male. Apparently, that makes me a bigot. I can live with that.

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Old 28th July 2019, 07:32 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Have you considered why you find the use of the metaphor marinate useful in this context? Is it your belief in a creator with a purpose that makes you think that bodies were meant to experience anything at all?! If not, who meant them to do so? When transexuals receive hormone treatment or undergo surgery, however, it is obviously because they themselves mean to change their bodies into an approximation of the the other sex, the one they weren't born as.
The rest of your post made good points too, but I think this is especially inciteful.

Some people believe we are designed by a creator, a God who had specific intentions on what is right and what it wrong, who specifically separated us into male and female, and who has a wondrous master plan for us all.

Others believe we came to being through a natural process of evolution. A process where life spawns new life in a potentially infinite process of replication, but a process that also involves potentially infinite variation.

If we believe in a God that designed us, then we also have to believe that God's plan includes these people on the fringes, whos biology doesn't quite fit into that stark dichotomy of male and female, or who may feel with all their heart that they really belong in that other camp.

If we don't believe in a God, if we acknowledge the natural system where life replicates life in a never-ending process producing millions of creatures the vast majority of which look like cookie-cutter replicas of their type but where there are always outliers who are a little bit different in their colouration, their shape, or their behavior, or their sexual orientation or even (gasp!) who differ in their gender identity.

These creatures fit into that plan that is not really a plan too! They are just as much a product of nature as are those other creatures who seem like replicas of one another, and when they are human we, as other humans, can choose to use our vaunted moral agency to allow them a place in our society with dignity, and not treat them like the mentally ill, perverts, or predators except for the individuals among them where evidence shows they really are those things.
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Old 28th July 2019, 08:00 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'm referring to the same thing, or something closely related, to the current discussion about gender dysphoria and mental illness.

Of course gender dysphoria is real. No one would say it is not. (Well, "no one" covers a lot of ground. No thinking person would say that it is not real.) However, a lot of people would deny that it is a mental...….illness? condition? People will dance around and apply all sorts of mental gymnastics to avoid labelling it anything all.

It's a psychological condition characterized by anxiety, depression, or other "dysphoric" symptoms associated with not wanting to identify as the sex that they actually are. It's a problem, and for some people the issues are sufficiently severe that the best way to treat the symptoms is to actually alter the body so that they are more like their preferred sex.
Okay, let's call it a "mental illness", and agree that fundamentally the difference of opinion is really how to treat the person with that mental illness.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
However, it doesn't mean that they are actually their preferred sex.
Why not?

Here you're basically asserting that we're only allowed to consider one attribute when determining gender. I think it's fair to ask, what gives you that authority?

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
In many cases, most of us are willing to go along, even then. We'll pretend that they are their preferred sex, in many cases. In some cases, we'll go farther depending on how far the transperson has gone to try to appear as the opposite sex.
"Going along with" is how change begins. Later on it becomes acceptance. Eventually it stops being an issue at all. If you feel like you're "going along" with something, consider that your grandchildren might think that's funny and backwards of you.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Moreover, we'll enthusiastically support the idea that we should very rarely treat the two sexes differently anyway, so that the situations where it matters are very rare.
If you think the purpose of the women's movement is to make women indistinguishable from men, then I think you miss the point.

Men and women will always be different and will always treat each other differently. The purpose of the women's movement isn't to make women just like men. It's purpose is to change that being a woman puts a person at disadvantage in making decisions for themselves, and also in having access to employment, advancement, money and power.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The debate is about how many situations are left, where we will insist that a transperson is someone who experiences gender dysphoria, a psychological condition, rather than actually being a person of the sex they would prefer, and where we cannot or should not just pretend that the difference is unimportant.
You think acknowledging the psychological condition somehow excludes us from recognizing transgender people as the gender they prefer. I don't agree with that. I think we should do both.
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Old 28th July 2019, 09:51 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
However, it doesn't mean that they are actually their preferred sex.
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Why not?

Here you're basically asserting that we're only allowed to consider one attribute when determining gender. I think it's fair to ask, what gives you that authority?

The dictionary.


I see you swapped my statement about sex for a different statement about gender. In the modern lexicon, we're told those are two different things. I used the word "sex" because that's what I meant. It's determined by biology.

So, what is a "woman"? Well, that's where the discussion kind of goes funky. If we define "woman" based on biological sex, it's pretty easy. If we use any other criterion, things get confusing. We end up with a lot of circular definitions.

In my humble (or not so humble) opinion, I am not willing to tell a high school girl that the penis-equipped person sharing her locker room is really a girl.


And if my grandchildren find my ideas quaint and old fashioned, I can live with that, but if they agree with me, I will oppose those who would tell them they have to take their clothes off in front of the biological male.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:36 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I agree it's fairly easy to find practical solutions, but activists don't want them. Moreover, they go to court to fight them.
So, the problem is the Terfs and anti-trans activists. Let's find a solution to the actual problem then.
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:15 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
So, the problem is the Terfs and anti-trans activists. Let's find a solution to the actual problem then.
No, the problem is not feminists, no matter what slurs you like to invent for them. The problem is men wanting to force teenage girls to undress in front of them.
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Old 29th July 2019, 02:36 AM   #305
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Good grief, how many times, when people say "this biological organism wasn't meant to do this or that" do they actually mean it wasn't created by God to do this or that? Not often, I'll warrant. As a biologist I use the phrase all the time (and so do my colleagues) as a shorthand for "this organism has not evolved to do this or that or to cope with doing this or that." So, cows aren't meant to eat carrion, or birds aren't meant to walk everywhere.

Male bodies did not evolve to experience or cope with female concentrations of female reproductive hormomes and the physical consequences for the body if for some reason (say a Sertoli cell cancer or exogenous administration of hormones) these hormone concentrations are reached can be seriously detrimental. Same with female bodies and male concentrations of male reproductive hormones. 400% increase in the risks of certain cancers, stroke, heart attack, brittle bones and so on.

Saying "but the mind inside that body wants these hormones so this is meant" doesn't change that the body did not evolve to experience or cope with this and the consequences that may follow.
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Old 29th July 2019, 02:37 AM   #306
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This is an interesting article.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...39/?ref=twtrec
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Old 29th July 2019, 04:21 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I didn't intend the word marinating in a pejorative sense, but there is indeed something bad going on. Male cells aren't designed (or didn't evolve, rather) to experience female-typical concentrations of oestrogen and progesterone. Steroid hormones are all interrelated and the balance of metabolism is very fine.
Wait a minute. Male and female human cells evolved in exactly the same way. The differences between the two sexes are, as I noted, significant, but it has nothing to do with how both evolved relative to one another. That doesn't make sense.

I get what you mean. You just aren't using the terms properly. So feel free to disregard.
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Old 29th July 2019, 04:25 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Transwomen aren't really women and transmen aren't really men. That ought to be self-evident. The only way you can make a ludicrous statement like that is by unilaterally changing what words mean.
And by all means, they can. But they shouldn't pretend that this is always what the word meant, or that the change is due to a new, scientific understanding of sex and gender. It's just a shift in social opinions.
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Old 29th July 2019, 04:29 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Geezes these threads get a bit repetitive

End of the day, it boils down to some people think trans women are women, some don't.

I'm a don't
Unfortunately it doesn't end there, because apparently if you're a don't, you want trans people to be discriminated against and commit suicide. That's one of the main reasons why it keeps repeating itself.
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Old 29th July 2019, 04:36 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Unfortunately it doesn't end there, because apparently if you're a don't, you want trans people to be discriminated against and commit suicide. That's one of the main reasons why it keeps repeating itself.
Indeed

The accept or you are encouraging suicide argument is annoying, but used frequently
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Old 29th July 2019, 04:40 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
Refer to my post 185 on the distinction between discussing sex and gender. Again, a lot of people dismiss that distinction, but it exists because it's a useful distinction.
Yes, but that distinction changed radically in the last few years. What we meant by gender 30 years ago isn't quite what is being discussed in this thread.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Originally Posted by Meadmaker
However, it doesn't mean that they are actually their preferred sex.
Why not?
Because I'm not the one who gets to decide what my objective characteristics are.
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Old 29th July 2019, 05:02 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post

Quote:
If a male bodied person by self-id info can force women into what is effectively sex work (ie touching genitalia) on the basis of identity discrimination that is wholly bad for women.”

Interesting, but also very irrelevant or at least confusing in the discussion about restrooms and showers unless female students in the USA are actually required to touch each other's genitalia in the restrooms, which I doubt.
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Old 29th July 2019, 05:28 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
So, the problem is the Terfs and anti-trans activists. Let's find a solution to the actual problem then.

You have to consider that transsexual activists may also go to extremes in their demands. Other minorities may sometimes do that, too. I once heard a Danish girl bound to her wheelchair insist that the disabled should be made able to do anything that people without disabilities can do. And I'm all for making cities much more easy to move around in for the disabled, but access to the springboards in the public swimming pool and wheelchair ice skating rinks ain't gonna happen. It's a drag that you're disabled so let's see how we can make life not only tolerable for you but also fun (some sports are more suited for wheelchair users than others), but forget about an ideal situation where a disability isn't disabling.

Some transsexual activists should probably be warned against ruining the progress that can be made if everybody tries to be a little sensible instead of insisting that the whole world should be made to accommodate their gender dysphoria. (And it would be a good idea in this thread to distinguish between the sensible transsexuals and the extremists.)

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No, the problem is not feminists, no matter what slurs you like to invent for them. The problem is men wanting to force teenage girls to undress in front of them.

No, the problem isn't "men wanting to force teenage girls to undress in front of them." You can make another thread about that theme.
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Old 29th July 2019, 05:33 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Saying "but the mind inside that body wants these hormones so this is meant" doesn't change that the body did not evolve to experience or cope with this and the consequences that may follow.

But the body didn't evolve to experience or cope with implants and the consequences they may have so I'm afraid you'll have to do without that hip replacement.

Nature is such a brilliant argument!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th July 2019, 05:50 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Wait a minute. Male and female human cells evolved in exactly the same way. The differences between the two sexes are, as I noted, significant, but it has nothing to do with how both evolved relative to one another. That doesn't make sense.

I get what you mean. You just aren't using the terms properly. So feel free to disregard.

I'm sorry, but as a card-carrying biochemist with over 40 years experience I have to tell you you're wrong. Homo sapiens is sexually dimorphic and the endocrine system matches that. Male cells have not evolved to cope with female concentrations of female reproductive hormones, or vice versa. Providing them with such hormones doesn't make them act like female cells. It causes problems with everything from skeletal structure to blood pressure to cancer risk.
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Old 29th July 2019, 05:56 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
But the body didn't evolve to experience or cope with implants and the consequences they may have so I'm afraid you'll have to do without that hip replacement.

Nature is such a brilliant argument!

No, it didn't evolve to cope with that hip replacement, but the replacement hip even with the problems it introduces may well be better than the alternative.

Similarly for some patients giving them unnatural concentrations of certain hormones may well be the best way to manage their mental illness. However, we shouldn't be pretending that the delaterious side-effects don't exist, or imagining that male cells can become female cells just by exposing them to a female endocrine environment.

A particular point is that nobody does a hip replacement operation on a healthy body. They wait until the joint has deteriorated to the point where it's justified, and especially they try to wait until the patient is old enough to be unlikely to outlive the natural lifespan of the artificial joint.

Cross-sex hormones are being given to people with healthy bodies, making them unhealthy, in order to treat a mental condition. I'm not saying that's never justified, but face the realities. False analogies with treatments used to address unhealthy bodies aren't helpful.
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Old 29th July 2019, 06:01 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And by all means, they can. But they shouldn't pretend that this is always what the word meant, or that the change is due to a new, scientific understanding of sex and gender. It's just a shift in social opinions.

It's a shift in the social opinions of some people. It's an extremely profound shift, to uncouple our understanding of the terms man and woman from our understanding of biological sex. These people appear to have appointed themselves the language police, and decreed that everyone who continues to use language the way it's been used for hundreds of years is a bigot and a hater and to be reviled and shunned.

This hasn't even been debated in public. Most people have no idea what the transactivists are even talking about. As a study in agenda capture it's quite something.
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Old 29th July 2019, 06:07 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Good grief, how many times, when people say "this biological organism wasn't meant to do this or that" do they actually mean it wasn't created by God to do this or that? Not often, I'll warrant. As a biologist I use the phrase all the time (and so do my colleagues) as a shorthand for "this organism has not evolved to do this or that or to cope with doing this or that." So, cows aren't meant to eat carrion, or birds aren't meant to walk everywhere.

Male bodies did not evolve to experience or cope with female concentrations of female reproductive hormomes and the physical consequences for the body if for some reason (say a Sertoli cell cancer or exogenous administration of hormones) these hormone concentrations are reached can be seriously detrimental. Same with female bodies and male concentrations of male reproductive hormones. 400% increase in the risks of certain cancers, stroke, heart attack, brittle bones and so on.

Saying "but the mind inside that body wants these hormones so this is meant" doesn't change that the body did not evolve to experience or cope with this and the consequences that may follow.
Just... stop.
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Old 29th July 2019, 06:10 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You have to consider that transsexual activists may also go to extremes in their demands. Other minorities may sometimes do that, too. I once heard a Danish girl bound to her wheelchair insist that the disabled should be made able to do anything that people without disabilities can do. And I'm all for making cities much more easy to move around in for the disabled, but access to the springboards in the public swimming pool and wheelchair ice skating rinks ain't gonna happen. It's a drag that you're disabled so let's see how we can make life not only tolerable for you but also fun (some sports are more suited for wheelchair users than others), but forget about an ideal situation where a disability isn't disabling.

Some transsexual activists should probably be warned against ruining the progress that can be made if everybody tries to be a little sensible instead of insisting that the whole world should be made to accommodate their gender dysphoria. (And it would be a good idea in this thread to distinguish between the sensible transsexuals and the extremists.)
That's a pragmatic view on it. Unfortunately, a lot of transactivists are emotionally invested in being treated with respect, and are probably not too keen on being told to simply accept small victories. That said, it's likely that small victories is what it'll come down to in the end, at least until enough time has gone by and the current cluster of Terfs and bigots are all pining for the fjords.
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Old 29th July 2019, 06:13 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Just... stop.

Why? I'm a biochemist. This is the biochemical reality of what's being done to transgender people, once you strip away all the flowery "brave and stunning and authentic" rhetoric that's used to conceal this reality.

Healthy bodies are being made unhealthy in order to treat a mental condition. (And health professionals who say, "hold on a minute, might it not be better to explore whether the patient can be reconciled with their healthy body before taking such a drastic step?" are being shouted down, accused of hate crimes and sacked.) If you can't cope with finding out that this is the reality, it's not my problem.
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