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Old 29th July 2019, 06:17 AM   #321
uke2se
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Why? I'm a biochemist. This is the biochemical reality of what's being done to transgender people, once you strip away all the flowery "brave and stunning and authentic" rhetoric that's used to conceal this reality.

Healthy bodies are being made unhealthy in order to treat a mental condition. (And health professionals who say, "hold on a minute, might it not be better to explore whether the patient can be reconciled with their healthy body before taking such a drastic step?" are being shouted down, accused of hate crimes and sacked.) If you can't cope with finding out that this is the reality, it's not my problem.
Bio-chemistry isn't the end-all-be-all, and you're not a ******* expert on everything.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
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Last edited by zooterkin; 2nd August 2019 at 04:27 AM.
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Old 29th July 2019, 06:25 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Interesting, but also very irrelevant or at least confusing in the discussion about restrooms and showers unless female students in the USA are actually required to touch each other's genitalia in the restrooms, which I doubt.
I don't know whether you understood the reference, so I will apologize in advance if I'm describing something you already knew.

The reference was to a Canadian transwoman, fully male bodied, who has been presenting "herself" at female salons requesting Brazilian wax treatments, and suing the ladies who refuse. "She" has successfully managed to shut down a couple of businesses so far. The case was in court in British Columbia on Friday.

Now, you might say that this has nothing to do with female high school students in the USA, and once again, I wish you were correct. Sadly, though, it all stems from the same idea, and it's a simple, logical, extension of the exercise of anti-discrimination laws which are very similar in Canada and in some states in the USA. According to those laws, transwomen are women, and it is illegal to treat a transwoman differently than any other woman, so when a transwoman shows up at a waxing parlor and requests a Brazilian wax, the only way for the salon keeper to avoid the anti-discrimination penalties is to provide the services requested, which does indeed require touching the guy's balls. By exactly the same reasoning, refusing to take your clothes off in front of a biological male, when you would be willing to do so in front of a biological female, is discrimination.


A practical solution in this case would be to allow salon keepers to say that a Brazilian wax cannot be applied to someone with testicles, regardless of their gender, but so far that argument has failed in the legal system.


So far, the dude has been successful, but he is such an incredible creep and has raised such an extreme amount of negative publicity through his various antics that it's possible some judge might actually say that enough is enough and he, or she, or whatever, is not entitled to humiliate salon keepers for fun, but we'll have to wait and see what the court says.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 29th July 2019 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 29th July 2019, 06:27 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Bio-chemistry isn't the end-all-be-all, and you're not a ******* expert on everything.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

When the subject is steroid hormones and the endocrine system, biochemistry is a pretty damn important part of it. I'm sorry you have so little concern for people whose mental distress is driving them to demand body modifications that damage their bodies and markedly increase their risk of serious disease that you want to sweep it under the carpet, but each to his own.
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Old 29th July 2019, 06:30 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't know whether you understood the reference, so I will apologize in advance if I'm describing something you already knew.

The reference was to a Canadian transwoman, fully male bodied, who has been presenting "herself" at female salons requesting Brazilian wax treatments, and suing the ladies who refuse. "She" has successfully managed to shut down a couple of businesses so far. The case was in court in British Columbia on Friday.

Now, you might say that this has nothing to do with female high school students in the USA, and once again, I wish you were correct. Sadly, though, it all stems from the same idea, and it's a simple, logical, extension of the exercise of anti-discrimination laws which are very similar in Canada and in some states in the USA. According to those laws, transwomen are women, and it is illegal to treat a transwoman differently than any other woman, so when a transwoman shows up at a waxing parlor and requests a Brazilian wax, the only way for the salon keeper to avoid the anti-discrimination penalties is to provide the services requested, which does indeed require touching the guy's balls. By exactly the same reasoning, refusing to take your clothes off in front of a biological male, when you would be willing to do so in front of a biological female, is discrimination.


A practical solution in this case would be to allow salon keepers to say that a Brazilian wax cannot be applied to someone with testicles, regardless of their gender, but so far that argument has failed in the legal system.


So far, the dude has been successful, but he is such an incredible creep and has raised such an extreme amount of negative publicity through his various antics that it's possible some judge might actually say that enough is enough and he, or she, or whatever, is not entitled to humiliate salon keepers for fun, but we'll have to wait and see what the court says.
There are waxing places that don't handle male waxing? It's the 2010s! I thought they all saw clients of both sexes. Hell, when it comes to depiliation men need it more than women!
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Old 29th July 2019, 06:42 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
She's apparently fooling me. I haven't read a word in a long time from her that I disagreed with.
You also believe men pretend to be transgender so they can steal used tampons from public ladies rooms?
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Old 29th July 2019, 06:43 AM   #326
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"Why would anyone want to enter a women's locker room?"

"Because they're a woman."

"Or a pervert."

"Come on! The perverts aren't real!"

"Here's evidence that the perverts are real."

"Yeah, but why would a pervert claim to be a woman?"

"So they can enter a women's locker room."

"Why would they want to do that?"

"Because they're a pervert."

"But they aren't doing it now?"

"It hasn't really been an option up until now."

"So?"

"So maybe we should consider not making it an option."

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Old 29th July 2019, 06:52 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
There are waxing places that don't handle male waxing? It's the 2010s! I thought they all saw clients of both sexes. Hell, when it comes to depiliation men need it more than women!

On the off-chance that this was a serious question, there appear to be plenty waxing places in Yaniv's city that will wax any configuration of genitalia you want to flash at them. Yaniv wasn't interested in patronising any of these places.

He sought out one-woman enterprises, small single trader operations which were simply one woman trying to make a bit of extra housekeeping money by waxing other women's bikini lines. They either worked at home (the word "salon" is misleading here) sometimes with small children around, or they drove to their clients' homes and did the procedure there.

He insisted that they treat him, despite his male body and male bodies requiring different training and different actual wax (it's a lot easier to injure a male due to the thinner skin). He called this "gender affirming therapy" and said they weren't allowed to deny it to him. Basically he wanted to be waxed by a woman who only waxed women for a psychological boost to his desire to be treated as a woman.

One woman had only been treating friends and family, but decided to open for general business to make a little bit of money from her skill. Yaniv was the first person who responded to her advertisement. She has shut down her nascent operation. So have one or two other women. Some have actually paid Yaniv money to get him to go away because they were afraid of being taken to court for discrimination.

So that's the dilemma. Are these women bigots for only being prepared to deal with female genitals, or is Yaniv an entitled crybully demanding an entirely unreasonable service in order to validate his delusion? Judgement in a few weeks I believe.
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Old 29th July 2019, 06:55 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You also believe men pretend to be transgender so they can steal used tampons from public ladies rooms?

I didn't say that. I said there are some autogynaephiles who have a tampon fetish and these men sometimes take used tampons from bins in ladies' toilets. I didn't say anything about them pretending to be trans. In fact I question whether "pretending to be trans" is even a meaningful concept these days, since the definition of trans is "everyone who says they are".
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:01 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You also believe men pretend to be transgender so they can steal used tampons from public ladies rooms?

One of the things that happens incredibly frequently in forum conversations is that people reject simple, common sense, arguments, and they deny the reality of common occurrences. At that time, people sometimes scrape for bizarre extremes trying to make their points. I've gotten trapped by this myself on occasion.


When that happens, "the other side" will seize on the statements regarding those bizarre extremes like a terrier on a rat, and won't let it go. They'll act as if those statements were representative of or significant to the primary arguments of the speaker.


It's a variation of the straw man argument. It's not an extreme, pure, straw man argument, because it does reference something that the speaker actually said, but by insisting that the statements are somehow crucial to the argument, that minor point is substituted for the actual argument. It is claimed that somehow, because one point of discussion can be refuted, the whole argument falls apart.


Furthermore, that minor point is often misrepresented. In forum conversations, these things often happen as one person makes a statement as part of an argument, and another person replies to that statement as a standalone statement, outside the context of the argument, and there's a bit of thread drift on that topic. After a while, then, the thread drift gets stitched back into the original argument, but condensed into a single statement which isn't representative of what was actually said.


That's why we so often end up arguing about whether or not someone said something. An original conversation is chopped up into bits, and then reassembled, but each individual bit may have a different context, and the pieces don't make sense when reassembled together into a statement that requires the same context.


In short, what she actually said describes some bizarre, but not unknown, behavior, and what she actually said is not what you have presented above. When it comes to what she actually said, I think there was a very good point that was being made, but she made it in such a way that it was easily misunderstood, or easily misrepresented.
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:01 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
On the off-chance that this was a serious question, there appear to be plenty waxing places in Yaniv's city that will wax any configuration of genitalia you want to flash at them. Yaniv wasn't interested in patronising any of these places.

He sought out one-woman enterprises, small single trader operations which were simply one woman trying to make a bit of extra housekeeping money by waxing other women's bikini lines. They either worked at home (the word "salon" is misleading here) sometimes with small children around, or they drove to their clients' homes and did the procedure there.

He insisted that they treat him, despite his male body and male bodies requiring different training and different actual wax (it's a lot easier to injure a male due to the thinner skin). He called this "gender affirming therapy" and said they weren't allowed to deny it to him. Basically he wanted to be waxed by a woman who only waxed women for a psychological boost to his desire to be treated as a woman.

One woman had only been treating friends and family, but decided to open for general business to make a little bit of money from her skill. Yaniv was the first person who responded to her advertisement. She has shut down her nascent operation. So have one or two other women. Some have actually paid Yaniv money to get him to go away because they were afraid of being taken to court for discrimination.

So that's the dilemma. Are these women bigots for only being prepared to deal with female genitals, or is Yaniv an entitled crybully demanding an entirely unreasonable service in order to validate his delusion? Judgement in a few weeks I believe.
I'm betting it'll end up hinging on licensing. Isn't that how things like this usually play out legally? Licensing indicates state regulation, and state regulation implies public accommodation. But if it's not a field where licenses are required the expectations may be different. Legal cases frequently turn out to be decided on much less exciting points than the original affairs that start them.

And I don't see that there has to be only one "bad" or "good" side to any conflict. Both the customer and the waxers have good points and bad in their actions.
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:04 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
One of the things that happens incredibly frequently in forum conversations is that people reject simple, common sense, arguments, and they deny the reality of common occurrences. At that time, people sometimes scrape for bizarre extremes trying to make their points. I've gotten trapped by this myself on occasion.


When that happens, "the other side" will seize on the statements regarding those bizarre extremes like a terrier on a rat, and won't let it go. They'll act as if those statements were representative of or significant to the primary arguments of the speaker.


It's a variation of the straw man argument. It's not an extreme, pure, straw man argument, because it does reference something that the speaker actually said, but by insisting that the statements are somehow crucial to the argument, that minor point is substituted for the actual argument. It is claimed that somehow, because one point of discussion can be refuted, the whole argument falls apart.


Furthermore, that minor point is often misrepresented. In forum conversations, these things often happen as one person makes a statement as part of an argument, and another person replies to that statement as a standalone statement, outside the context of the argument, and there's a bit of thread drift on that topic. After a while, then, the thread drift gets stitched back into the original argument, but condensed into a single statement which isn't representative of what was actually said.


That's why we so often end up arguing about whether or not someone said something. An original conversation is chopped up into bits, and then reassembled, but each individual bit may have a different context, and the pieces don't make sense when reassembled together into a statement that requires the same context.


In short, what she actually said describes some bizarre, but not unknown, behavior, and what she actually said is not what you have presented above. When it comes to what she actually said, I think there was a very good point that was being made, but she made it in such a way that it was easily misunderstood, or easily misrepresented.
Yes, yes, if someone's on your side in an argument they get a pass on crazy statements. Let's establish a limit, though, to prevent disorder. Shall we say three crazy statements per thread per person? And one racist remark, for good measure. I'll use mine now: the Swiss are terrible people.
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:05 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I didn't say that. I said there are some autogynaephiles who have a tampon fetish and these men sometimes take used tampons from bins in ladies' toilets. I didn't say anything about them *pretending* to be trans. In fact I question whether "pretending to be trans" is even a meaningful concept these days, since the definition of trans is "everyone who says they are".
No doubt these used tampon scroungers, who cause so many women so much discomfort these days, would be discouraged from their sick behavior only because it said "only biologically females may use these facilities".

Like no man would ever think about raping someone in a public bathroom were there explicit signing declaring that "only biological females were permitted".
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:14 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
In short, what she actually said describes some bizarre, but not unknown, behavior, and what she actually said is not what you have presented above. When it comes to what she actually said, I think there was a very good point that was being made, but she made it in such a way that it was easily misunderstood, or easily misrepresented.

If I recall correctly the point about the tampon fetishists was in parentheses, in the course of an argument that covered such commonplace things as menstrual cups and the occasional need to wash bloodstained panties. Nobody has really picked up the points about the menstrual cups and the panty-washing problem.

I honestly have no idea how common menstruation fetish is in autogynaephile men, but some time ago someone pointed me to an internet site selling rubber fetish gear designed to make a male body appear as if it was a menstruating female and there really isn't enough brain bleach in the world. So it's common enough that businesses have sprung up to service this fetish. The contraptions on sale were supposed to be used with fake stage blood and I have no idea what proportion of these fetishists actually raid bins for the real thing but it's fairly well-known that some do.

I don't know why men with fetishes choose to discuss these openly on the internet rather than in some private closed groups, but they do, and some people have noted these discussions and shown them to a wider audience. It happens. I make no claim to have any idea how common it is. But the fact is that the existence of the fetish is now becoming more widely known thanks to the indiscretion of the fetishists themselves, and women are finding out about this and going "ewwww, that's gross, that's just one more reason I don't want men in the public bathrooms I use."

Don't shoot the messenger.
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:15 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm not insulting anyone. I'm telling Rolfe, and apparently you, that your behavior is disgusting, and I hope you will be able to feel ashamed some day.

Have a Great day!
A cop ranting slurs at feminist biochemists...how unexpected. ACAB
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:17 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
No doubt these used tampon scroungers, who cause so many women so much discomfort these days, would be discouraged from their sick behavior only because it said "only biologically females may use these facilities".

Like no man would ever think about raping someone in a public bathroom were there explicit signing declaring that "only biological females were permitted".

Maybe you should stop locking your car and your house because of course no thief would ever think about going into someone else's property.
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:17 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yes, yes, if someone's on your side in an argument they get a pass on crazy statements. Let's establish a limit, though, to prevent disorder. Shall we say three crazy statements per thread per person? And one racist remark, for good measure. I'll use mine now: the Swiss are terrible people.
And one misrepresentation. You have also used up that one.
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:18 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
One foolproof way to see that Rolfe is talking bollocks is that she's only ever talking about Trans-women "invading" women's spaces. Trans-men don't factor into this equation, so she simply pretends like they don't exist. This line of argument makes it clear that Rolfe is talking from a misandrist trans-exclusionary - in other words, bigoted - perspective.

Transmen hardy ever come into the debate. Gosh I wonder why? Part of the reason (though far from the entire reason) is that this is in no way a symmetrical situation.
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:19 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
One foolproof way to see that Rolfe is talking bollocks is that she's only ever talking about Trans-women "invading" women's spaces.
Isn't that because she's a woman? And thus women's spaces are what she's interested in?
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:20 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Isn't that because she's a woman? And thus women's spaces are what she's interested in?
She's also human. I think.
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:21 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
She's also human. I think.
Yes, but people are still allowed to be more interested in one aspect of human behaviour than every other aspect. And it doesn't necessarily make them bigoted to do so.
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:22 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
One foolproof way to see that Rolfe is talking bollocks is that she's only ever talking about Trans-women "invading" women's spaces. Trans-men don't factor into this equation, so she simply pretends like they don't exist. This line of argument makes it clear that Rolfe is talking from a misandrist trans-exclusionary - in other words, bigoted - perspective.
Those damn feminists are standing up for women's rights, how dare they?! Damn misandrist bigots, every last one of them!
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:23 AM   #342
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I'm actually a bit confused at this point. Are people saying there is no such thing as tampon fetishism at all? If so I fear you're wrong.

Are they saying that it happens so rarely the point shouldn't be brought up at all because it won't affect most people? My answer to this is that I have no idea how rare it is and probably neither have you, however it's something that happens and I don't see why declarations that it's really rare should be a valid reason for excluding the point.

Are they saying that it doesn't matter whether it's rare or common, the taking of the used tampons and towels is done surreptitiously and if women don't know their discarded products have been taken in this way why does it matter to them? The only answer to this is, ewwwww, again. I think you'll find most women don't shrug this off with "what I don't know won't hurt me."
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:23 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Yes, but people are still allowed to be more interested in one aspect of human behaviour than every other aspect. And it doesn't necessarily make them bigoted to do so.
Misogynists have always accused feminists of being misandrists because they specifically defend women's rights, nothing new there.
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:25 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Isn't that because she's a woman? And thus women's spaces are what she's interested in?

That's part of it of course. I don't presume to tell men what boundaries they ought to have as regards their own single-sex spaces. But mainly, as I said, it's not a symmetrical situation.
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:30 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That's part of it of course. I don't presume to tell men what boundaries they ought to have as regards their own single-sex spaces. But mainly, as I said, it's not a symmetrical situation.
Why not? You already presume the authority to dictate who is and who isn't a woman, and who can and cannot enter the ladies room. You may as well go an inch further and command all the sexes, not just the one.
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:40 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm sorry, but as a card-carrying biochemist with over 40 years experience I have to tell you you're wrong. Homo sapiens is sexually dimorphic and the endocrine system matches that. Male cells have not evolved to cope with female concentrations of female reproductive hormones, or vice versa. Providing them with such hormones doesn't make them act like female cells. It causes problems with everything from skeletal structure to blood pressure to cancer risk.
What I mean is that the two sexes did not evolve independantly. They're not separate species.

Quote:
It's a shift in the social opinions of some people.
Yes, of course. But whether or not it becomes mainstream my point remains.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:04 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
No, it didn't evolve to cope with that hip replacement, but the replacement hip even with the problems it introduces may well be better than the alternative.

That is how transsexuals feel about their hormone treatments and surgery, too. They would rather have been born as the sex they identify with, but they consider the approximation, which is all they can achieve, better than the alternative.

Quote:
Similarly for some patients giving them unnatural concentrations of certain hormones may well be the best way to manage their mental illness. However, we shouldn't be pretending that the delaterious side-effects don't exist, or imagining that male cells can become female cells just by exposing them to a female endocrine environment.

I haven't heard of hormones being used to treat mental illness. You do know that hormones are given to transsexuals because they impact their bodies, don't you? The mood changes that accompany this treatment, i.e. the psychological impact of the hormones, are a side effect.

Quote:
A particular point is that nobody does a hip replacement operation on a healthy body. They wait until the joint has deteriorated to the point where it's justified, and especially they try to wait until the patient is old enough to be unlikely to outlive the natural lifespan of the artificial joint.

Do you have a point? Does it make it any more natural? By the way, I did notice that you've replaced the nature argument with the health argument. But if you tried to argue consistently, you would notice that it doesn't change much: In both cases, the doctors and psychiatrists involved examine their patients and decide what is the better solution for them. In the case of transsexuals: to live with a body that they don't feel comfortable with or one that they can live with.
By the way, since you insist on treating it as a mental illness, you might be able to tell us about the successful therapies for transsexuals that cure them of their mental disorder. You know, transsexual conversion therapy. It's not something I've heard about, but it ought be out there somewhere, right?!

Quote:
Cross-sex hormones are being given to people with healthy bodies, making them unhealthy, in order to treat a mental condition. I'm not saying that's never justified, but face the realities. False analogies with treatments used to address unhealthy bodies aren't helpful.

No, it's not at all in order to treat a mental condition. If it were, it would correspond to operations for people with delusion of grandeur to make them look like Jesus or Napoleon.
If the transsexuals are depressed because they feel like they are the wrong sex, it may actually end their depression, but that is only because the condition that makes them depressed, i.e. their body, has changed. It's not really a change of mind.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:04 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Seriously, stop posting. You aren't fooling anyone.
Are you saying that Rolfe is pretending to have these opinons?

Quote:
You know that transgenderism isn't considered a mental disorder, and that pisses you off, so you keep treating it as one anyway.
"Deep down, you agree with me."

Quote:
You simply can't abide that people you consider pretty much less than human
That's a lie. Nowhere has Rolfe said or implied anything of the sort.

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are finally being treated as your equal and listened to.
Per Meadmaker's example, that one person seems to be treated as a special class, actually.

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One day, your kind will die out.
Ah, hubris. You can't manage to convince someone of your ideas so you proclaim that one day, history will side with you. It's a conceit. You don't know. For all we know, in 200 years slavery will be back on the table. I sure hope not, but I don't know with any sort of confidence. Stop acting as if your opinions are based on objective truth and anybody else's is based on hate and stupidity.

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I'm not insulting anyone.
No, sure. Being told that you consider people to be less than human is not insulting at all.

Quote:
I'm telling Rolfe, and apparently you, that your behavior is disgusting, and I hope you will be able to feel ashamed some day.
Again, you only are willing to consider your own opinion as true.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:12 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'm betting it'll end up hinging on licensing. Isn't that how things like this usually play out legally? Licensing indicates state regulation, and state regulation implies public accommodation. But if it's not a field where licenses are required the expectations may be different. Legal cases frequently turn out to be decided on much less exciting points than the original affairs that start them.

And I don't see that there has to be only one "bad" or "good" side to any conflict. Both the customer and the waxers have good points and bad in their actions.
What are the bad points in the waxers' actions, here?
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:12 AM   #350
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, it's not at all in order to treat a mental condition. If it were, it would correspond to operations for people with delusion of grandeur to make them look like Jesus or Napoleon.
It does correspond to operations for people who are transabled - ie those who identify as disabled. Sometimes surgical operations are performed (for example amputating a leg) as an attempt to ease the mental distress.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:14 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Why? I'm a biochemist. This is the biochemical reality of what's being done to transgender people, once you strip away all the flowery "brave and stunning and authentic" rhetoric that's used to conceal this reality.

Healthy bodies are being made unhealthy in order to treat a mental condition. (And health professionals who say, "hold on a minute, might it not be better to explore whether the patient can be reconciled with their healthy body before taking such a drastic step?" are being shouted down, accused of hate crimes and sacked.) If you can't cope with finding out that this is the reality, it's not my problem.
I'm also a biologist, since we are apparently presenting credentials.

Yes, there is some truth in the difference in male and female cells. There are genes on the Y chromosome that have no match on the X chromosome and there are genes on the X chromosome that have stronger expression when there are two X chromosomes. There are a hell of a lot of hormones and other chemicals involved and we don't have a complete understanding. So you are correct that we can't at this point change someone's sex at a cellular level.

But we can manipulate some of those chemicals to alter gene expression in many ways thus altering the phenotype of a person. And yes, that has side effects. Just about every medication has side effects, some quite serious. For example, under hormone therapy, the risk of breast cancer increases 46x. (But it's still lower than in in cis women.) Not a surprising result, really.

Source:
Quote:
In the 2260 trans women in the cohort, 15 cases of invasive breast cancer were identified (median duration of hormone treatment 18 years, range 7-37 years). This was 46-fold higher than in cisgender men (standardised incidence ratio 46.7, 95% confidence interval 27.2 to 75.4) but lower than in cisgender women (0.3, 0.2 to 0.4). Most tumours were of ductal origin and oestrogen and progesterone receptor positive, and 8.3% were human epidermal growth factor 2 (HER2) positive. In 1229 trans men, four cases of invasive breast cancer were identified (median duration of hormone treatment 15 years, range 2-17 years). This was lower than expected compared with cisgender women (standardised incidence ratio 0.2, 95% confidence interval 0.1 to 0.5).
hthttps://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1652tp://

But apparently the jury is still out on cancer and hormone therapy:
Quote:
Cancer Prevalence Is Not Increased in Transgender Adults Using Hormone Therapy
The overall cancer incidence in transgender men and women did not differ significantly from that in control groups in studies to date. The incidence of breast cancer in transgender individuals taking estrogen is not different from secular trends in males and is lower than secular trends in women. A rare but possible increase prostate cancer (0.04%) has been reported in transgender women, however, the findings are limited by decreased screening and the relative young age (average, 29.3 years) in subjects at the start of therapy.4

Hyperplasia in the female reproductive tract has been reported in studies that are low powered. However, newer data suggest that testosterone therapy in transgender men may be associated with tissue atrophy of the epithelium of the cervix and endometrium, not with malignancy as might have been presumed from the hyperplasia data.

It is also important to follow cancer screening guidelines for transgender individuals’ natal gender.

Mortality Rates Not Altered by Transgender Hormone Therapy Use
Transgender hormone therapy does not have a direct affect on mortality, according to the 3 largest studies to date. While one study found a 51% increase in mortality in transgender women compared to secular data, the differences were linked to factors unrelated to hormone therapy, including an increased incidence of suicide, AIDS, substance abuse, and cardiovascular disease.5
https://www.endocrineweb.com/profess...-certain-risks

Bear in mind that mental health treatment often involves medications that, while helpful for the psychological condition, can have adverse side-effects on the physical body. Some cause liver or kidney damage or reduce immune system function, for example. There is no free lunch. Medication comes with risk.

Also, there are a number of procedures done for cosmetic purposes that cause risk to healthy bodies: Breast implants, liposuction, Botox injections. All can cause serious health problems if things go wrong. We do, actually, perform surgery on healthy bodies on a routine basis for cosmetic purposes. Also, some women have prophylactic mastectomies because their mothers had breast cancer. Christina Applegate and Angelina Jolie, for example.

Bottom line is that, while some risks may be increased, I'm not really seeing evidence that hormone therapy makes a body less healthy in general. At least not any more than any other treatment.

That said, doctors should not take these steps lightly. (I'm not convinced that they do, but that's another topic.) It is a bit disturbing that there are people on forums who advise people on the answers to give to facilitate certain treatments, but dysphoria/trans-genderism is not the only condition where this occurs.

I also think you have a point about self-identification and the potential for abuse. But you might get more traction if you focused on ways to prevent the abuse without also disparaging non-abusers.

As for the "brave and stunning" stuff...yes, I agree it kind of makes my eyes roll. But that's my problem not anyone else's. If someone were saying that about someone who came out as anorexic or some other body image disorder would the language bother you as much? Being publicly trans is, indeed, brave. So is speaking publicly about a lot of other things: anorexia, testicular cancer, homosexuality (though not as much as in the past), substance abuse issues etc. We would have no problem calling these people courageous when they come forward in public. If the treatment is transitioning then the subject has no choice but come forward in public. Given the response of many of the people around them, it would be quite daunting and likely keeps many from pursuing this treatment. It's also a body issue. The result is that the trans-community (and supporters) try to be encouraging and supportive because they know how much negativity and ridicule they had to go through. So yeah, it can be over the top. Big deal.

Damn, that was a long post. My apologies. I didn't mean to write a book.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:14 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Maybe you should stop locking your car and your house because of course no thief would ever think about going into someone else's property.
Are you suggesting that these "tampon fetishists" are somehow a social problem on par with burglars and car thieves?

Maybe the "sanitary" wastebaskets in restrooms should be under lock and key, so that people can only put things in them and not take anything out? That's at least how they inconvenience toilet paper thieves and hoarders. No doubt women would feel much more at ease knowing that only professionals were able to pilfer their used intimate products...
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:17 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
One foolproof way to see that Rolfe is talking bollocks is that she's only ever talking about Trans-women "invading" women's spaces. Trans-men don't factor into this equation, so she simply pretends like they don't exist. This line of argument makes it clear that Rolfe is talking from a misandrist trans-exclusionary - in other words, bigoted - perspective.
I think there's some good arguments in defense of this focus on Rolfe's part.

Probably the simplest is a rebuttal by reduction to the "absurd". Rolfe is a woman, concerned about women's issues and how women are treated by a patriarchal society. It makes sense that her focus would be transwomen in women's spaces. Men are, by and large, more than privileged enough to fight for transmen out of men's spaces if they want. Rolfe isn't obliged to address that concern, just because she's addressing a women's concern.

By your reasoning, any focused interest group is bigoted. This is a pretty absurd outcome, so the reasoning that produced it is probably bollocks.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:20 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What are the bad points in the waxers' actions, here?
Setting up public businesses without being willing to deal with all the public. Although like I said I think it'll hinge on licensing: just how legit were these operations? If they had storefronts I'd expect them to have to be more accommodating and "real business" than if they're semi-amateurs going around to people's houses or having clients come to their house. Like the difference between someone cutting hair in their kitchen for a few bucks versus having a barbershop, or running a massage parlor versus lugging a massage table around in your car.

I'm not saying I side with the customer in this case, though. I don't have all the facts and those that were given were given in a highly slanted fashion. There strikes me as much to criticize on all parts. Perhaps not equally, but of course everyone understands that not every conflict is between blameless saints and incorrigible devils...right?
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:21 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I didn't say that. I said there are some autogynaephiles who have a tampon fetish and these men sometimes take used tampons from bins in ladies' toilets. I didn't say anything about them pretending to be trans.

Why do you now focus on "autogynaephiles"? They are probably a minority of the minority of people who are tampon fetishists. I think it's a much bigger problem than you imagine, and I'm not even sure that tampon fetichists are all men.
In order to solve the problem, you have to consider not only the autogynaephiles, but also the other male tampon fetichists, the female ones, the ones who aren't tampon fetichists but who steal used tampons to sell them online.
And how do you avoid the problem of ordinary women taking other women's used tampons from public bathrooms? Or cleaners or janitors - of both sexes?
If you really want to solve this problem, you've got your work cut out for you.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:21 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm actually a bit confused at this point. Are people saying there is no such thing as tampon fetishism at all? If so I fear you're wrong.
I think tampon fetishism got promoted from a sidebar to a red herring. I'd try to back out of that conversation if you can. Debating the point isn't necessary to your thesis, and just feeds the lines of argument that are working to avoid your thesis.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:22 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yes, yes, if someone's on your side in an argument they get a pass on crazy statements.
Ah, man. I thought Mead's post was well-written and neutral enough. His point being that the tampon thing isn't really central to Rolfe's point, so asking as if it is is not really helpful. Do you agree?

I mean, I get that it's a good zinger, but...
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:24 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
By your reasoning, any focused interest group is bigoted. This is a pretty absurd outcome, so the reasoning that produced it is probably bollocks.
Compare the crowd ranting about "anti-white bigotry" because anti-racists focus on defending the rights of black people.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:25 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think tampon fetishism got promoted from a sidebar to a red herring. I'd try to back out of that conversation if you can. Debating the point isn't necessary to your thesis, and just feeds the lines of argument that are working to avoid your thesis.
No lets hear this thing out. You are just going to have to deal with it because, before we go any further in this discussion, we need to get the bottom of this.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:28 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think tampon fetishism got promoted from a sidebar to a red herring. I'd try to back out of that conversation if you can. Debating the point isn't necessary to your thesis, and just feeds the lines of argument that are working to avoid your thesis.
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
No lets hear this thing out. You are just going to have to deal with it because, before we go any further in this discussion, we need to get the bottom of this.
Like I said...
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