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Old 1st September 2019, 11:47 PM   #41
cullennz
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Kiwi parrots can be the nastiest

Our Kea like trying to kill people in car crashes

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And destroying cars. They even rip out the rain seal, knowing full well it is raining

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Old 2nd September 2019, 12:56 AM   #42
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This is old news. The comparison with a SUV is from a 2009 study!
See this link for more information
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcm.../#72b94fe113a6
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Old 2nd September 2019, 12:59 AM   #43
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We are a long way away.

News takes awhile to get here.

I only heard about it while out shopping for the album by that new band The Beatles everyone is going on about.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 2nd September 2019, 07:37 AM   #44
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If herds were actually smaller without the need for pet food, and if the catches of wild seafood, etc. were smaller, then that would be the impact.

But I think the statistic is poor. I'm sure that pets do contribute to a degree of environmental harm, but in this case the question ought, I think, to be what would be the overall result to the environment if there were no pets. If, as some presume, a large percentage of the meat consumed by pets is unfit for human consumption, it would make more sense to ask what would be different if pets were not in the equation.

Looking at this in terms of percentage alone produces a dilemma. In terms of pure percentage of harm from pets, the more we humans do to decrease our own carbon footprint the greater the percentage of harm our pets will appear to do. If we all became vegetarians, our cats would be the meat demons of the planet. We could counter that to some degree by switching to more edible pets (I hear pigs can be quite charming), but if we're to stick with the ones we have, we can decrease the percentage of their harm by eating more meat ourselves.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 09:20 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
The worst of these is the Permian event. Are any scientists really saying that 96% of species will die out?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction

I don't know of any scientist predicting how bad this will eventually be. Wouldn't there have to be some way of knowing when it's going to stop, or even slow down, or even stop accelerating?

Quote:
...also, the current rate of extinction is 10 to 100 times higher than in any of the previous mass extinctions in the history of Earth.
That alone would seem to justify "rates with the worst in the history".
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Old 2nd September 2019, 09:29 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction

I don't know of any scientist predicting how bad this will eventually be. Wouldn't there have to be some way of knowing when it's going to stop, or even slow down, or even stop accelerating?


That alone would seem to justify "rates with the worst in the history".
I don't think so. Wasn't the Meteorite Winter a lot faster?

Plus, dunno how many fossils we have to count the past extinctions, but I'll bet our current count of species is 10x? 100x? 1,000x? that.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 09:33 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I don't think so. Wasn't the Meteorite Winter a lot faster?
I just posted a link that says it wasn't.

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Plus, dunno how many fossils we have to count the past extinctions, but I'll bet our current count of species is 10x? 100x? 1,000x? that.
What do you mean by "current count of species"? We have not yet driven as many species to extinction as prior extinction events if that's what you're asking.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 11:59 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I've been looking for something reputable to back the claim in wiki that "the current rate of extinction is 10 to 100 times higher than in any of the previous mass extinctions", and I can't find anything. The link they give to source the claim doesn't contain the claim at all.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 12:06 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
There are five mass extinction events. It is pretty clear how they rank. Where does the sixth rank? We donít know. So donít make the claim!
It does appear that nobody yet knows how bad it'll end up being compared to the other extinction events.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 03:53 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I don't think any rancher is producing "pet food". The pet food industry depends on the off-cuts from meat prepared for human consumption. Eaten any kidney, spleen, uterus, intestine, heart, blood vessel,.. lately? Or a 20 year old milk cow? Brood sow? YOU won't eat it, and it has no other use than feeding pets.

Anybody google the lead author? Is he a Vegan or on the board of PETA? They usually have a political bias.
I agree with you that the pet food industry is probably more of a plus than a minus in that it increases the efficient utilization of animals that are raised or caught first for human consumption. I doubt very many animals are expressly raised or fished primarily for pets, even for high end commercial pet foods. This does not invalidate the numbers in the study but does affect any interpretation of which, if any, policy decisions should be made. And I do know some pet lovers who do buy fresh fancy cuts for their animals but there are only a few of them.

On the other hand your discussion of acceptable meat parts comes from the same 1st world perspective as my own. I donít like those cuts much either but their are many people in the world who view them as special treats in what is overall a very impoverished diet. In fact many continue to be important in ethnic cuisines even as cuisine evolved from poverty to fancy restaurants.

Finally a lot of these secondary cuts do go into human foods, not only pet foods. Sausages, burgers, meat sauces, etc. Frozen and canned meat products can often be expanded by inclusion of these items. Very little meat of any kind goes down the trash even if not diverted to dog food. Plus some is recycled as bone and meat meals to raise more meat animals.

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Old 2nd September 2019, 04:06 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I agree with you that the pet food industry is probably more of a plus than a minus in that it increases the efficient utilization of animals that are raised or caught first for human consumption. I doubt very many animals are expressly raised or fished primarily for pets, even for high end commercial pet foods. This does not invalidate the numbers in the study but does affect any interpretation of which, if any, policy decisions should be made. And I do know some pet lovers who do buy fresh fancy cuts for their animals but there are only a few of them.

On the other hand your discussion of acceptable meat parts comes from the same 1st world perspective as my own. I donít like those cuts much either but their are many people in the world who view them as special treats in what is overall a very impoverished diet. In fact many continue to be important in ethnic cuisines even as cuisine evolved from poverty to fancy restaurants.

Finally a lot of these secondary cuts do go into human foods, not only pet foods. Sausages, burgers, meat sauces, etc. Frozen and canned meat products can often be expanded by inclusion of these items. Very little meat of any kind goes down the trash even if not diverted to dog food. Plus some is recycled as bone and meat meals to raise more meat animals.
For some reason this thread is beginning to remind me of a Mark Helprin novel, Memoir from Ant-proof Case, whose protagonist, when he falls out of corporate favor, finds he keeps being served kosher turkey anuses.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 04:09 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
For some reason this thread is beginning to remind me of a Mark Helprin novel, Memoir from Ant-proof Case, whose protagonist, when he falls out of corporate favor, finds he keeps being served kosher turkey anuses.
Chickens and turkeys are fairly efficient converters of grain to meat so maybe this idea is a fairly green one.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 04:17 PM   #53
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Has the fact that Greta Thunberg owns a dog come up in the other thread?
gulting people for driving or owning a dog or for flying isn't going to work but finding ways to make these endeavors have less impact on the environment will work.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 11:20 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It does appear that nobody yet knows how bad it'll end up being compared to the other extinction events.
Does it matter whether it is the worse ever mass extinction event or only the 2nd worse or the least worse mass extinction event?
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Old 2nd September 2019, 11:23 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Does it matter whether it is the worse ever mass extinction event or only the 2nd worse or the least worse mass extinction event?
It probably depends on what species you are.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 06:08 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I agree with you that the pet food industry is probably more of a plus than a minus in that it increases the efficient utilization of animals that are raised or caught first for human consumption. I doubt very many animals are expressly raised or fished primarily for pets, even for high end commercial pet foods. This does not invalidate the numbers in the study but does affect any interpretation of which, if any, policy decisions should be made. And I do know some pet lovers who do buy fresh fancy cuts for their animals but there are only a few of them.

On the other hand your discussion of acceptable meat parts comes from the same 1st world perspective as my own. I donít like those cuts much either but their are many people in the world who view them as special treats in what is overall a very impoverished diet. In fact many continue to be important in ethnic cuisines even as cuisine evolved from poverty to fancy restaurants.

Finally a lot of these secondary cuts do go into human foods, not only pet foods. Sausages, burgers, meat sauces, etc. Frozen and canned meat products can often be expanded by inclusion of these items. Very little meat of any kind goes down the trash even if not diverted to dog food. Plus some is recycled as bone and meat meals to raise more meat animals.
Without the additional revenue that can be generated by turning the unwanted portions of the dead animals into food for pets, doesn't meat production become a lower-margin enterprise?
Seems that if the slaughterhouses have to deal with disposing of the unwanted portions instead of making a profit from them they become an unwanted business expense which is either passed on to the consumer or reflected by lower profit- either way resulting in less meat production.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 07:23 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I've been looking for something reputable to back the claim in wiki that "the current rate of extinction is 10 to 100 times higher than in any of the previous mass extinctions", and I can't find anything. The link they give to source the claim doesn't contain the claim at all.
They didn't contain the claim or you couldn't open them to check? I asking because some of the links are to paywalled scholarly articles.

ETA: BTW we've gotten to 7% of species extinct in 12,000 years. That's damn fast.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 07:31 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Currently, the environmental cost of the tiger is rapidly heading down to zero.
Maybe our ancestors killing off the pre-historic megafauna wasn't such a bad thing after all...
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Old 3rd September 2019, 07:48 AM   #59
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I have several dogs with tubes connected from them, to a natural gas collection tank.

I burn the gas to create steam to turn my turbine powered generator.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 07:49 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
My understanding is that cats are but dogs are not.
Dogs are certainly not obligate carnivores. Compared to wolves, dogs have much better ability to digest starch, meaning that they are far better equipped to survive on diet comparable to humans.

Just like with humans, one must make sure that a vegetarian diet for a dog fulfills their nutritional needs, of which dogs have some specific differences compared with humans. But there's certainly no need to include food based upon meat as there is with a cat.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 07:51 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The elephant in the room is kids

I am guessing having one kid would have a larger foot print than 6 medium size dogs in NZ.

Given average life span of a dog is 10-13 and humans are 82

Parents eh? Planet killers
But each kid will have an SUV eventually, plus a dog of their own.

OH DEAR
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Old 3rd September 2019, 08:35 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Dogs are certainly not obligate carnivores. Compared to wolves, dogs have much better ability to digest starch, meaning that they are far better equipped to survive on diet comparable to humans.

Just like with humans, one must make sure that a vegetarian diet for a dog fulfills their nutritional needs, of which dogs have some specific differences compared with humans. But there's certainly no need to include food based upon meat as there is with a cat.
Coyote scat is typically composed of berries, seeds and grass, with some mouse fur thrown in. At least here in Michigan.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 05:52 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
They didn't contain the claim or you couldn't open them to check? I asking because some of the links are to paywalled scholarly articles.
It initially looks paywalled, but it's really not. Here's the PDF:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...01-1-9010124.x
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Old 3rd September 2019, 07:30 PM   #64
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Do you happen to know which citation that is from the Wikipedia article?
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Old 4th September 2019, 01:38 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Currently, the environmental cost of the tiger is rapidly heading down to zero.
Actually it's trending upward:

https://www.worldwildlife.org/magazi...rending-upward
Quote:
For the first time in a century, the number of tigers living in the wild is going up. According to the latest date, around 3,900 tigers now exist across Asiaóup from an estimated 3,200 in 2010.
Certainly still very low, but your "heading down to zero" is inaccurate.
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Old 4th September 2019, 01:46 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I've been looking for something reputable to back the claim in wiki that "the current rate of extinction is 10 to 100 times higher than in any of the previous mass extinctions", and I can't find anything. The link they give to source the claim doesn't contain the claim at all.
One problem is that it's very difficult to estimate the rate at which past extinction events took place. We just don't have that kind of precision.

There may be ways around this problem that I'm unaware of, but it seems to me that at best we can get a lower bound on the rate which could have been many orders of magnitude higher.
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Old 4th September 2019, 02:00 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Actually it's trending upward:

https://www.worldwildlife.org/magazi...rending-upward

Certainly still very low, but your "heading down to zero" is inaccurate.
That's a very depressing article. It uses phrases and words like "ambitious", "greatest win" yet the goal is only to double the number of tigers. So if they are successful they will change the past century from a 97% loss of the species to a 94% loss.

What are the prospects for restoring the population to it's 1900 level of 100,000? And 1900 was presumably depressed compared to 10,000 years ago.
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Old 4th September 2019, 02:06 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
That's a very depressing article. It uses phrases and words like "ambitious", "greatest win" yet the goal is only to double the number of tigers. So if they are successful they will change the past century from a 97% loss of the species to a 94% loss.


What are the prospects for restoring the population to it's 1900 level of 100,000? And 1900 was presumably depressed compared to 10,000 years ago.
I agree that it's depressing. I think the prospects are pretty small. When humanity is using 30% of the planet's primary production for it's own purposes that doesn't leave all that much space for other species. I think there's quite a lot of room for improvement from the current state but to get back to the numbers of 1900 is, I think, very unlikely.
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Old 4th September 2019, 10:03 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I haven't read the article, and I don't have a dog, and and and....but I just wonder if they compared the carbon footprint of a dog to that of any other critters. How does the carbon footprint of a dog compare to that of, say, a tiger? I think it's fine to think hard about the environmental cost of pets, and perhaps even to use that thinking to decide how to balance the benefit with the cost, but I suspect the arithmetic.
Even if a tiger (for example) has a bigger carbon footprint than a dog, I'm not sure if the comparison is relevant.

Wild animals usually live in balance with the environment... disease and starvation kill off many individuals, and over-population usually corrects itself. (Well, assuming humans aren't around to mess things up.)

On the other hand, a pet dog not only consumes resources, but it does not have to contend with pressures like disease and starvation that a tiger would.

Too many tigers in a given area? Some will die (of disease, starvation, or through competition with other tigers). Too many dogs in a given area? Just import more pet food, take them to the vet to make sure they aren't carrying any diseases, and make sure 'extra' dogs are safely housed in the local animal shelter.
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Old 4th September 2019, 10:27 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Do you happen to know which citation that is from the Wikipedia article?
The wiki says:
Quote:
the current rate of extinction is 10 to 100 times higher than in any of the previous mass extinctions in the history of Earth. One scientist estimates the current extinction rate may be 10,000 times the background extinction rate, although most scientists predict a much lower extinction rate than this outlying estimate.[27]
Clicking on the 27, this is the link in the footnote:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...01-1-9010124.x

Whoever provided the reference in wiki probably made a mistake and meant to link to the actual book and not a review of the book, maybe.
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Old 4th September 2019, 10:30 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Too many tigers in a given area? Some will die (of disease, starvation, or through competition with other tigers). Too many dogs in a given area? Just import more pet food, take them to the vet to make sure they aren't carrying any diseases, and make sure 'extra' dogs are safely housed in the local animal shelter.
Shelter space (in the US, at least) is limited, and "surplus" dogs are euthanized.
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Old 4th September 2019, 10:54 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I trained my corgi, Woofleton, to drive my SUV. He chaffeurs me to and from work, so the SUV pollution and dog pollution cancel each other out to zero. I am saving the Earth and living in style!
Careful: While Woofleton is driving home alone, somebody will offer to trade him a bone for the car. If he's like most dogs, he'll jump at that offer, and think he got a great deal.
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Old 4th September 2019, 10:59 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The wiki says:

Clicking on the 27, this is the link in the footnote:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...01-1-9010124.x

Whoever provided the reference in wiki probably made a mistake and meant to link to the actual book and not a review of the book, maybe.
I'd suggest clicking on some of the other citations in that paragraph.

Is there some reason I'm missing to question that claim? The claim seems perfectly consistent, even frighteningly low balled, based on other numbers in the article.
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Old 4th September 2019, 11:02 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I trained my corgi, Woofleton, to drive my SUV. He chaffeurs me to and from work, so the SUV pollution and dog pollution cancel each other out to zero. I am saving the Earth and living in style!
They only cancel out if your corgi has a fatal crash.
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Old 4th September 2019, 11:04 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Careful: While Woofleton is driving home alone, somebody will offer to trade him a bone for the car. If he's like most dogs, he'll jump at that offer, and think he got a great deal.
Do you imagine I'd employ an ordinary dog? Woofleton is the most sagacious of corgis! He absolutely drips with wisdom from every end! It was Woofleton whom foiled the cunning conspiracy to steal the duchess's emeralds, correctly deduced the secret refuge of the invading Swiss robots, and developed the ritual necessary to placate the Bloodlords. What a busy summer Woofleton had! With all that he still managed to get Star Baker (with handshake!), launch a fashion line, write a bestselling fantasy trilogy about dystopian teenagers, and dig up a medieval Viking graveyard and rebury it on the other side of the yard. Woofleton is a paragon amongst princes, a prince among principals, a principal among patriarchs, and the best damn coffee ever to strangle an errant bishop who crossed the wrong Byzantine emperor.
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Old 4th September 2019, 11:06 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Hey, if you fed the cats to the small dog, then fed the small dog to the St. Bernard, you could significantly reduce your carbon footprint!*

* Legal Disclaimer: We do not seriously propose that you follow this advice. This advice is for (possibly failed) humorous purposes only. Take this advice only with the approval of a qualified veterinarian. We disclaim all responsibility for any adverse outcomes caused by following this advice. Do not try this at home, your mileage may vary, void where prohibited, etc., etc., etc.
IME, after living together for awhile, the dogs and cats like each other too much to eat each other. It is far more likely that, if you quit feeding them, the dogs and cats would gang up and eat you that that any of them will eat another.
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Old 4th September 2019, 11:19 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Quote:
Too many tigers in a given area? Some will die (of disease, starvation, or through competition with other tigers). Too many dogs in a given area? Just import more pet food, take them to the vet to make sure they aren't carrying any diseases, and make sure 'extra' dogs are safely housed in the local animal shelter.
Shelter space (in the US, at least) is limited, and "surplus" dogs are euthanized.
Some areas of the U.S. do have 'no kill' shelters, where euthanasia is reserved only for dogs that are ill and/or dangerous.

And even if animals are put down in shelters, the population level would still be higher than would exist in a strictly wild situation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-kil...#United_States
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Old 4th September 2019, 11:30 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I'd suggest clicking on some of the other citations in that paragraph.
That was the only citation given for that particular claim.
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Old 4th September 2019, 11:33 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It does appear that nobody yet knows how bad it'll end up being compared to the other extinction events.
Everybody talks about extinction events like they're a bad thing. But they provide room for explosive evolution. We wouldn't exist without them.
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Old 4th September 2019, 11:38 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
And even if animals are put down in shelters, the population level would still be higher than would exist in a strictly wild situation.
Of course. None of them would even have existed in the first place in a purely wild situation.

I basically think of Canis familiaris as a part of the extended phenotype of Homo sapiens.
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