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Old 3rd September 2019, 05:23 PM   #1
William Parcher
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Another Noose and Hate Crime Charges

University of Illinois Student Charged With Hate Crime After Noose Found Hanging in Dorm Elevator: Officials

Originally Posted by The Daily Beast
A University of Illinois student has been charged with a hate crime after a noose was found hanging in an elevator at a residence hall, school officials said Tuesday. Andrew M. Smith, a 19-year-old student at the Urbana-Champaign campus, was arrested and charged with a misdemeanor count of disorderly conduct and a felony count of committing a hate crime. The university said that at about 1 a.m. on Sunday, staff members of the residence building Allen Hall reported the discovery of a rope tied into a noose inside an elevator. “After investigating, Smith was identified as the offender,” the university said, adding that Smith was arrested inside the residence hall Monday night. According to the Champaign County Sheriff’s Office, Smith is scheduled to be arraigned Tuesday afternoon in Champaign County Circuit Court. The incident comes just months after black employees filed a class-action lawsuit against the campus, alleging they faced racial harassment and were “exposed to threats of racial violence, such as nooses, swastikas, KKK garb, racist graffiti, and confederate flags.”
https://www.thedailybeast.com/univer...ator-officials


Black Mascara White Supremacist...
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Old 3rd September 2019, 05:52 PM   #2
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The Smollett Effect on the hoof

Speaking of on the hoof, if hommes was going for a sultry lip pursing in the left pic, we can safely say that's also been put out to pasture.

Eta: though I note the quote does not ascribe a gender pronoun to Andrew.

eta II: Illinois nazis? Illinois nazis!
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Old 3rd September 2019, 06:30 PM   #3
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Old 3rd September 2019, 06:58 PM   #4
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Is this going to be like the Boeing thing where even though they actually found the perpetrator people are going to insist he's a scapegoat and there was no noose and/or the university knowingly framed an innocent person as part of a conspiracy to avoid bad press, etc etc etc?
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Old 3rd September 2019, 07:06 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Is this going to be like the Boeing thing where even though they actually found the perpetrator people are going to insist he's a scapegoat and there was no noose and/or the university knowingly framed an innocent person as part of a conspiracy to avoid bad press, etc etc etc?
Take another gander at that pic before rolling out the assumed 'he'

Cis-hets. SMH.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 07:18 PM   #6
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That radical comb-over hairdo is a tribute to Trump who is the hero of Andrew Smith. This is just another Trump supporter taken down by hate crime charges. I bet Smith wishes it was a milkshake to the head instead of criminal charges.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 07:20 PM   #7
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There are plenty of people who identify as male who have long, flowing hair.

*tosses hair dramatically*
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Old 3rd September 2019, 07:26 PM   #8
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...but presumably have better taste in eyeliner. I mean that shade with that top? Christ. Might as well be working the door at Sephora's.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 08:28 PM   #9
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Another story:
https://www.courant.com/ct-universit...scm-story.html

This one refers to Smith with male pronouns. I'll assume he identifies as male until told otherwise.

I'm glad they caught the perpetrator (alleged perpetrator; he pleaded not guilty to the charges). Will they be able to prove the hate crime charges, which make it a felony rather than just a misdemeanor?

It's being treated as self-evident that leaving a noose around is intended to intimidate African Americans.

I do think that it's more than enough to expel him from the University. I just don't know if they can prove the felony charges. The act seems pretty obvious, but what motivated the act? I'd like to know more about the individual from people who knew him personally.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 08:53 PM   #10
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More pictures.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 09:04 PM   #11
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Anyone taking bets that this turns out to be autoerotic asphyxiation gone south?
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Old 3rd September 2019, 09:24 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Another story:
https://www.courant.com/ct-universit...scm-story.html

This one refers to Smith with male pronouns. I'll assume he identifies as male until told otherwise.

I'm glad they caught the perpetrator (alleged perpetrator; he pleaded not guilty to the charges). Will they be able to prove the hate crime charges, which make it a felony rather than just a misdemeanor?

It's being treated as self-evident that leaving a noose around is intended to intimidate African Americans.

I do think that it's more than enough to expel him from the University. I just don't know if they can prove the felony charges. The act seems pretty obvious, but what motivated the act? I'd like to know more about the individual from people who knew him personally.
Because it is. Using a symbol publicly associated with intimidation of minorities makes it such.

My uneducated guess would be edgelord prank gone wrong, for the prankster. But given that trolling as a racist for edginess is indistinguishable from being a racist for realsies, I'm not sure his actual intent will or even should matter.

Is there a functional difference between "I hung the noose to make people uneasy, and it happens to be a symbol associated with intimidation of minorities" and "I hung the noose to intimidate the darkies" or is it just semantics?

If he did it and is convicted I'm sure the difference should come in during mitigation, but for the charge beforehand if the effect is the same why shouldn't the charge be?
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Old 3rd September 2019, 09:26 PM   #13
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"I found the noose in the dorm building and figured that someone had lost it. I hung it in the dorm elevator because that would be the best way for the owner to quickly get it back. Everybody rides that elevator. I would have done the exact same thing if it were a sock or a glove. You now arrest me for doing that? You are totally full of crap."
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Old 3rd September 2019, 09:28 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
"I found the noose in the dorm building and figured that someone had lost it. I hung it in the dorm elevator because that would be the best way for the owner to quickly get it back. Everybody rides that elevator. I would have done the exact same thing if it were a sock or a glove. You now arrest me for doing that? You are totally full of crap."
Is this an actual quote from the suspect or just riffing?
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Old 3rd September 2019, 09:29 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by TalosMarr View Post
Is this an actual quote from the suspect or just riffing?
In the full quote, Andrew prefaces with 'Darling' and ends with 'bitch, please'
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Old 3rd September 2019, 09:42 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by TalosMarr View Post
Is this an actual quote from the suspect or just riffing?
I am serious. And don't call me Shirley.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 09:44 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by TalosMarr View Post
Is this an actual quote from the suspect or just riffing?
I think it's just Bill imagining an excuse.

If I were to give any legal advice to the suspect it would be to shut the hell up and let your lawyer do the talking. Saying something like Bill suggested might seem like a clever defense, but I doubt it would work and might just make things worse. Trying to explain yourself to the police is almost always a bad idea and just gives them more material to hang you with (no joke intended).

You said earlier that "I'm not sure his actual intent will or even should matter" but although I'm not a lawyer, I suspect that the actual intent does matter for legal reasons.

Here's the statute, fwiw:
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/publ...?Name=100-0197

ETA: the fact that the crime was committed in a college dorm is an aggravating factor:
Quote:
(3) in a school or other educational facility,
including an administrative facility or public or private
dormitory facility of or associated with the school or
other educational facility;
That bumps it up from a class 4 felony to a class 3 felony.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 10:09 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Take another gander at that pic before rolling out the assumed 'he'
The Boeing perpetrator was a he.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 10:25 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I think it's just Bill imagining an excuse.

If I were to give any legal advice to the suspect it would be to shut the hell up and let your lawyer do the talking. Saying something like Bill suggested might seem like a clever defense, but I doubt it would work and might just make things worse. Trying to explain yourself to the police is almost always a bad idea and just gives them more material to hang you with (no joke intended).

You said earlier that "I'm not sure his actual intent will or even should matter" but although I'm not a lawyer, I suspect that the actual intent does matter for legal reasons.

Here's the statute, fwiw:
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/publ...?Name=100-0197

ETA: the fact that the crime was committed in a college dorm is an aggravating factor:

That bumps it up from a class 4 felony to a class 3 felony.
I suppose my question was more in the light of using a known racist symbol, doubly so at this school which is currently in the throes of legal action regarding the use of such symbols to intimidate minority staff. If you use such a symbol, in such an environment, even if play acting as I suspect would and should it matter in the eyes of the law?

From the statute provided;
Quote:
A person commits hate crime when, by reason of the
actual or perceived race, color, creed, religion, ancestry,
gender, sexual orientation, physical or mental disability, or
national origin of another individual or group of individuals,
regardless of the existence of any other motivating factor or
factors
, he or she commits assault, battery, aggravated
assault, intimidation, stalking, cyberstalking, misdemeanor
theft, criminal trespass to residence, misdemeanor criminal
damage to property, criminal trespass to vehicle, criminal
trespass to real property, mob action, disorderly conduct,
transmission of obscene messages, harassment by telephone, or
harassment through electronic communications as these crimes
are defined in ...
To me it looks that if using a publicly acknowledged symbol of racism qualifies as fulfilling the "by reason of the actual or perceived race" part, a "just trolling yo" defense wouldn't matter.

Interesting that being on a campus is an aggravating factor.

ETA - I would like to reiterate that I'm talking mostly out of my hat here. Just spitballing based on my own speculation.

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Old 3rd September 2019, 10:34 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by TalosMarr View Post
To me it looks that if using a publicly acknowledged symbol of racism qualifies as fulfilling the "by reason of the actual or perceived race" part, a "just trolling yo" defense wouldn't matter.

Interesting that being on a campus is an aggravating factor.
Yeah, and I'm not sure what the actual defense will be, but I imagine if he has a competent lawyer, it won't be "I was just trolling the libtards, lol."

The thing is though, that the burden of proof is supposed to be on the prosecution, not the defense. The prosecution needs to provide positive proof of the reason for the act; the defense only needs to argue that there is room for reasonable doubt: that the prosecution has not proven (not the fact of the act itself, but the reason for the act, the reason being what makes it a felony rather than a misdemeanor) beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 11:07 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Yeah, and I'm not sure what the actual defense will be, but I imagine if he has a competent lawyer, it won't be "I was just trolling the libtards, lol."

The thing is though, that the burden of proof is supposed to be on the prosecution, not the defense. The prosecution needs to provide positive proof of the reason for the act; the defense only needs to argue that there is room for reasonable doubt: that the prosecution has not proven (not the fact of the act itself, but the reason for the act, the reason being what makes it a felony rather than a misdemeanor) beyond a reasonable doubt.
Agreed, though I think a "it was just an edgy prank" may be a possibility.

Maybe the question I have would be the defense, e.g. does using a symbol publicly known as being used to intimidate minorities meet the burden of proof for intent on its own just by nature of being a racist symbol that caused intimidation.

If it does, just a prank is no excuse per the regardless of other motivations clause, if it doesn't, acquittal. I guess we'll see at trial, assuming it gets that far and I'm right about the whole prank thing.

I haven't even been thinking about the friend who reported him to the police that is mentioned in the Courant article. It's not clear if she was with him when the noose was found or when it was put up, but she certainly felt the need to tell the police that Andrew had something to do with it.

Bleh, now I feel bad for speculating. I do genuinely want to know if using a hate symbol meets the burden of proof for intent on its face though.

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Old 3rd September 2019, 11:07 PM   #22
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I would go for the obvious diversion defence.

"Everyone knows how high suicide attempts are with trans people. People were teasing me about my eye-line and I was going to kill myself in the lift, but changed my mind. Should have taken the rope down, I have just had my finger nails done and didn't want to damage them untying knots...So technically I am the victim"
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Old 3rd September 2019, 11:22 PM   #23
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Okay, stop.

There is no suggestion that this person is trans. And even if they are, it has nothing to do with whether they are guilty of a hate crime or not.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 11:46 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Okay, stop.

There is no suggestion that this person is trans. And even if they are, it has nothing to do with whether they are guilty of a hate crime or not.
It was a joke in answer to William Parcher's post.

Should have quoted it.
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Old 4th September 2019, 12:42 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
It was a joke in answer to William Parcher's post.

Should have quoted it.
You were the one who introduced their assumed transgender status into the joke. But you are not the only one doing this.

There is no suggestion that they are trans. Several people, including you, have been assuming, based on hair, eyeliner and duckface alone, that they are transgender.

Don't assume you know their gender. Wait for evidence.
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Old 4th September 2019, 01:53 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There are plenty of people who identify as male who have long, flowing hair.

*tosses hair dramatically*

Damn right

*tosses what's left of hair somewhat less dramatically*
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Old 4th September 2019, 01:54 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You were the one who introduced their assumed transgender status into the joke. But you are not the only one doing this.

There is no suggestion that they are trans. Several people, including you, have been assuming, based on hair, eyeliner and duckface alone, that they are transgender.

Don't assume you know their gender. Wait for evidence.
The whole point of the joke was the assumption is the cops would assume they are trans from the look of them, like posters on this thread if they said they were as an alibi.

Geesh lighten tfu
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Old 4th September 2019, 05:16 AM   #28
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I'm curious if a federal hate crime charge has ever been brought in tandem with a disorderly conduct misdemeanor before. Usually hate crime charges are brought when a targeted crime has been committed, whereas this noose was just left in a public place as a general threat. Leaving a noose somewhere doesn't even qualify as vandalism, and leaving it in a public place for anyone to find probably isn't specific enough to be considered a criminal threat against an individual.


This might be a difficult stretch, but maybe it's just a gambit for a guilty plea for reduced charges. If the accusation is true, this guy is a real scumbag, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with the legal reach here. Disorderly conduct is already a real catch-all charge used to punish generic bad-behavior that isn't otherwise a crime, tacking on a felony gets a little to close to punishing "wrong-speak" for my comfort. Wonder what the ACLU might make of this.
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Old 4th September 2019, 05:45 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm curious if a federal hate crime charge has ever been brought in tandem with a disorderly conduct misdemeanor before.
These are state charges, not federal.
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Old 4th September 2019, 05:52 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There are plenty of people who identify as male who have long, flowing hair.

*tosses hair dramatically*
Male with long hair here, there are other little clues this person is making a turn in life.

Not that it matters in a men's prison. The criminal justice system doesn't nicely ask which he will prefer.

That aside, things have changed since I was in school. We used to be able to carry pocket knives and tie nooses without having hateful ideas. This brave new world isn't quite right.
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Old 4th September 2019, 05:56 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
These are state charges, not federal.

Thanks for the correction. Looks like Illinois law explicitly lists disorderly conduct in its hate crime statute.

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs...050k12-7.1.htm

Disorderly conduct always makes me a bit uncomfortable, as it's a very broad law that is often abused, often as a means of criminalizing protected expression. All that said, it seems like an appropriate charge here given the facts, as hanging a noose is generally understood as a threat.

This country has wide protections of free speech and it's not illegal to be a racist. It's nice when the racists are kind enough step on rakes and screw themselves over like this.
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Old 4th September 2019, 06:28 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
That aside, things have changed since I was in school. We used to be able to carry pocket knives and tie nooses without having hateful ideas. This brave new world isn't quite right.
In all honesty, without sounding as dick-ish as possible, why would you? I'm an older individual and I don't think I've tied a noose...ever. I can't imagine a scenario I actually would tie a noose. Are you sure it wasn't your old school world that wasn't quite right, if you're the ones going around tying nooses for totes fun?
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Old 4th September 2019, 07:35 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
In all honesty, without sounding as dick-ish as possible, why would you? I'm an older individual and I don't think I've tied a noose...ever. I can't imagine a scenario I actually would tie a noose. Are you sure it wasn't your old school world that wasn't quite right, if you're the ones going around tying nooses for totes fun?
Decorating the yard at Halloween called for nooses and dummys in my old hometown, in addition to tombstones and the other 'we don't have the cash for decorations but damned if we aren't gonna have fun' low-tech displays.

A noose makes a convenient knot for tying on to things you want to be able to reloosen. Can be handy, like other boy-scout knot-tying skills.

I think it was on the Boeing noose thread, I mentioned that I hadn't learned about racial lynching till I was in high school. A noose didn't have the race hate murder connotations it has now. Maybe because I grew up in a Union State, I dunno.
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Old 4th September 2019, 07:41 AM   #34
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These were the days of the old Clint Eastwood films, Josey Wales, The good, The bad and the ugly....

Kids seen it and had to try to tie one. Now every kid is trying to turn a Toyota into a high performance race car.
I didn't knowingly hang out with haters of any sort at that time. I am not sure it was even much of a social factor in our lives.

It was just something a kid did and others copied. And it was a phase we all passed to get into real life stuff.

No big deal then.
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Old 4th September 2019, 08:24 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Leaving a noose somewhere doesn't even qualify as vandalism, and leaving it in a public place for anyone to find probably isn't specific enough to be considered a criminal threat against an individual.
Remember where you are. This is the ISF.

The noose represents white supremacy and therefore represents and encourages the killing of blacks and other non-whites, Jews, homosexuals and lesbians and trans, gypsies, et al. White supremacy is equated with neo-Nazi. All of that is domestic terrorism. The hanging of a noose is an act of domestic terrorism. The hanger of the noose is a domestic terrorist.

Remember where you are. This is the ISF.
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Old 4th September 2019, 08:35 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Remember where you are. This is the ISF.

The noose represents white supremacy and therefore represents and encourages the killing of blacks and other non-whites, Jews, homosexuals and lesbians and trans, gypsies, et al. White supremacy is equated with neo-Nazi. All of that is domestic terrorism. The hanging of a noose is an act of domestic terrorism. The hanger of the noose is a domestic terrorist.

Remember where you are. This is the ISF.
I didn't realize the ******* ISF charged him with the crimes, but totes sweet nonsensical crying. I give it a 7 out of 10. If you would have played into how this guy is the actual victim it would have been a 10 out of 10. Good luck next time.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Decorating the yard at Halloween called for nooses and dummys in my old hometown, in addition to tombstones and the other 'we don't have the cash for decorations but damned if we aren't gonna have fun' low-tech displays.

A noose makes a convenient knot for tying on to things you want to be able to reloosen. Can be handy, like other boy-scout knot-tying skills.

I think it was on the Boeing noose thread, I mentioned that I hadn't learned about racial lynching till I was in high school. A noose didn't have the race hate murder connotations it has now. Maybe because I grew up in a Union State, I dunno.
So during your pre-high school days you would go to school and twist up some nooses for halloween?

Wait a second, people hang things by nooses as Halloween displays? What does a lynching have to do with Halloween? Maybe I'm missing that connection. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it's just not something I've run into I guess. Must be a North Dakota thing where that isn't decor we use. Learn something new every day I guess.

Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
These were the days of the old Clint Eastwood films, Josey Wales, The good, The bad and the ugly....

Kids seen it and had to try to tie one. Now every kid is trying to turn a Toyota into a high performance race car.
I didn't knowingly hang out with haters of any sort at that time. I am not sure it was even much of a social factor in our lives.

It was just something a kid did and others copied. And it was a phase we all passed to get into real life stuff.

No big deal then.
Like I said, this is all news to me, but hey...I love to learn.
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Old 4th September 2019, 08:38 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I didn't realize the ******* ISF charged him with the crimes, but totes sweet nonsensical crying.
The ISF regularly charges people with domestic terrorism. White supremacy is domestic terrorism.

Do you read the ISF?
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Old 4th September 2019, 08:40 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The ISF regularly charges people with domestic terrorism. White supremacy is domestic terrorism.

Do you read the ISF?
The ISF isn't a charging body of any particular consequence so it really doesn't matter. Also, you aren't charging people with domestic terrorism, you're here constantly. So...again, what the hell are you talking about?
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Old 4th September 2019, 08:47 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
So during your pre-high school days you would go to school and twist up some nooses for halloween?

Wait a second, people hang things by nooses as Halloween displays? What does a lynching have to do with Halloween? Maybe I'm missing that connection. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it's just not something I've run into I guess. Must be a North Dakota thing where that isn't decor we use. Learn something new every day I guess.
Nooses to me were from horror movies primarily, and westerns secondarily. Yes, we'd hang homemade dummies fron the trees with an ax handle buried in their heads, tombstones with gloves reaching out of the ground, and any other homemade imagery from the old Hammer Horror flicks from Saturday TV.
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Old 4th September 2019, 08:48 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I didn't realize the ******* ISF charged him with the crimes, but totes sweet nonsensical crying. I give it a 7 out of 10. If you would have played into how this guy is the actual victim it would have been a 10 out of 10. Good luck next time.



So during your pre-high school days you would go to school and twist up some nooses for halloween?

Wait a second, people hang things by nooses as Halloween displays? What does a lynching have to do with Halloween? Maybe I'm missing that connection. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it's just not something I've run into I guess. Must be a North Dakota thing where that isn't decor we use. Learn something new every day I guess.



Like I said, this is all news to me, but hey...I love to learn.
I wouldn't say that a noose is automatically a racist dog whistle in every circumstance. If I saw a noose as part of a Halloween display, that wouldn't automatically translate "black lynching" scene. A noose could probably be considered general macabre in many circumstances. The Hangman with noose character is probably interchangeable with the character of The Executioner with axe. Out west, a noose probably more readily evokes scenarios of frontier justice than that of black lynching.

To be honest, unless the accused runs his mouth, proving racial animus in this case beyond a reasonable doubt would be tough. Personally, I feel comfortable saying that, in the context of the continuing racial harassment of the black staff, a racial taunt is the likeliest explanation, but that's a much lower standard. I am even more comfortable saying that any reasonable person would know that leaving a noose out to find is a pretty open threat, even if the target is not specified.
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