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Old 9th September 2019, 07:03 PM   #41
wasapi
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After almost my entire adult life, was a vegetarian who ate chicken and fish. Then, recently I found out I am anemic, and changed my diet. I eat meat, grains, vegetables and fruits, nuts and so on.


I believe my risk of heart issues and strokes are equal.

Basically, I eat what tastes good and keep a balance. Not that hard.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:31 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Basically, I eat what tastes good and keep a balance. Not that hard.
Quit being so reasonable. That's no fun at all.
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Old 9th September 2019, 08:26 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
My understanding is that humans grew their brains due to the nutrient-density of animal protein. Also the advent of agriculture led to shorter and less healthy people who were prone to rotting teeth and disease (cf the ancient Egyptians). Also the human body is obviously not adapted to veganism, because it requires that you take supplements to make it work over time. Otherwise you do not thrive.

I don't have an argument with vegetarians, who don't eat meat, but who eat eggs, cheese, etc. I think veganism is an abomination, though.
Unfortunately for you, your "understanding" is based on pseudoscience you've unskeptically swallowed from the Weston Price Foundation.

Last edited by jt512; 9th September 2019 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 9th September 2019, 08:29 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
Unfortunately for you, your "understanding" is based on pseudoscience you've unskeptically swallowed from the Price-Waterhouse Foundation.
Sorry, I don't believe in the vegan stuff.
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Old 9th September 2019, 08:32 PM   #45
jt512
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Sorry, I don't believe in the vegan stuff, and I also don't think that makes me unskeptical.
What makes you unskeptical is that you've swallowed whole-line-and-sinker the Weston Price Foundation paleo-religion.

Last edited by jt512; 9th September 2019 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 9th September 2019, 08:47 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
What makes you unskeptical is that you've swallowed whole-line-and-sinker the Weston Price Foundation paleo-religion.
What makes you a fanatic is that you'll spout tripe like this. I've never heard of the Weston Price Foundation. You could at least point me to Forks Over Knives, though I've seen it already. I've seen a lot of the vegan propaganda films, and I don't find them at all compelling.

Here's a shocker: someone can be skeptical and disagree with you.

I don't want to step on your cheap shots, though.
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Old 9th September 2019, 11:04 PM   #47
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It’s funny how humans are with accepting facts that are contrary to how they want things to be. There is so much evidence that a primarily plant-based diet is the healthiest diet. Look at the Mediterranean diet -it’s mostly plants with meats used sparingly. But no one likes the idea of a plant-based diet so people who embrace it -vegetarians and vegans- get lumped into this category of, “that’s crazy!” Which really means, “I would never do that so anyone who does must be crazy!”

It’s not crazy to eat only plants and with a little planning, you don’t need supplements-it’s nutritionally complete. B12 is available from nutritional yeast and many vegan friendly foods are fortified with it. Vegetarians who eat dairy have no issue. It’s funny to me that people scoff at a vegan diet because of something dumb like “you need supplements,” while their own diets are leading them to heart-disease, diabetes, stroke, etc. Vegans are “sickly looking?” Why, because they are at a healthy weight?

People are funny.
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Old 9th September 2019, 11:52 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Vegans are “sickly looking?” Why, because they are at a healthy weight?
Regarding this point.

Earlier this year I was training for a marathon at the same time as laying off the booze. Immediately before the race my weight was around 72kg (160 lb), I'm 1.87m (6' 2") but I was in the shape of my life).

Even though my weight was comfortably within the "healthy BMI" range, and the fact that I'm a medium/light build pretty much everyone I met felt qualified to tell me that I was unacceptably skinny and looked unhealthy (though I note that they haven't told better upholstered friends that they're too fat and should lose weight).

I guess in the West we're just used to being surrounded by heavier people these days. No doubt a handful are world class strength athletes but most are just overweight.
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Old 10th September 2019, 04:49 AM   #49
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I love all the "X diet is the healthiest one, Y diet is the worst one!" posts. Put your money where your mouth is and provide some evidence in the form of a personal photo. Or admit it's all bluster and despite your religious devotion to eating A and not eating B you're actually not the prime physical specimen you should be, were your theories correct.
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Old 10th September 2019, 05:07 AM   #50
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a)Anybody looked for a Cochrane?

b) the only head to head comparison I know of was high carb, low carb, zone, atkins, whatever and they all came out the same health wise after 2 years. Dunno if veggie/vegan was in there.

c) The cohort in the OP sounds familiar, I suspect today's discussion is based on datamining a bigger study. Because as I said upthread, that study would have covered a LOT of things to compare, like cancer rates or over all death rates. Which makes me suspect bias. I could see this conversation: "We dug and we dug. The only difference we can find is slightly more heart attacks in the one group, slightly more strokes with the other. Let's run with that".
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Old 10th September 2019, 07:54 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Heh.

I'm no more critical of vegans than I am with religious people. There will be disagreements among their group about what constitutes good adherence to their guidelines or what those very guidelines should be; just the nature of the beast. Until there is some Pope of veganism calling the shots, I'll avoid nitpicking them to death about it.
Veganism pretty much is a religion, and a fair number of its adherents really like to proselytize, which is another reason not to engage in such discussions, at least if you're an unrepentant carnivore as I am. If you ask them, they are likely to tell you in far more detail than you really want to hear.
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Old 10th September 2019, 07:56 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
My sister the Vegan makes all kinds of giant health claims. And points me to "The ChIna Study"*. I figure if those claims were half right, we wouldn't need no study to see the advantages. A couple less deaths per 10,000 person/years is NOT what they claim.

* Don't go ggogling "The China Study" without adding "debunk". Was it Harriet? Mary Enig? that shreds the study.
My response to health claims about veganism/vegentarianism is that giving up meat may or may not cause you to live longer, but it will certainly seem longer.
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Old 10th September 2019, 01:56 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post

Could you provide evidence that supplements are necessary for veganism?

.......
Of course supplements aren't necessary for anyone in the short term.. It just depends on the quality of life you would like to have.

From the Vegan Society:

Quote:
Very low B12 intakes can cause anemia and nervous system damage. The only reliable vegan sources of B12 are foods fortified with B12 (including some plant milks, some soy products and some breakfast cereals) and B12 supplements. Vitamin B12, whether in supplements, fortified foods, or animal products, comes from micro-organisms. Most vegans consume enough B12 to avoid anemia and nervous system damage, but many do not get enough to minimize potential risk of heart disease or pregnancy complications.
The site also discusses the possible need for other supplements, but not necessarily due to a vegan lifestyle.

So yes, their is evidence that veganism benefits from supplements, and in the case of B12, serious health risks are likely without supplementation.
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Old 10th September 2019, 02:16 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Earlier this year I was training for a marathon at the same time as laying off the booze. Immediately before the race my weight was around 72kg (160 lb), I'm 1.87m (6' 2") but I was in the shape of my life).

Even though my weight was comfortably within the "healthy BMI" range, and the fact that I'm a medium/light build pretty much everyone I met felt qualified to tell me that I was unacceptably skinny and looked unhealthy (though I note that they haven't told better upholstered friends that they're too fat and should lose weight).
At 6'2" and 160 lbs, you might have been "fit" (as in, you could run forever), but I guarantee you were weak. And I say that as someone who used to be 6'4" and 160 lbs. I was worse off in that I was both weak and out of shape. I couldn't run a marathon even now, but at 200 lbs I'm a hell of a lot stronger than I used to be.

When you're young, you can get away with being weak if your cardiovascular is good, because even a weak young person can still move their own body around plenty, even if they can't lift or push much. But as you get old, the limiting factor for most activities stops being cardiovascular fitness but simple muscular strength. The problem is that it's very hard to put on muscle when you're old. It's much easier to put it on when you're younger and then keep it (or more precisely, slow its loss). I'm not talking about getting into the "obese" BMI via muscles (though people certainly can do that), but 160 lbs really is skinny, and you really will be weak at that weight.

Question: do you have back pain?
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Old 10th September 2019, 02:56 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It’s funny how humans are with accepting facts that are contrary to how they want things to be. There is so much evidence that a primarily plant-based diet is the healthiest diet. Look at the Mediterranean diet -it’s mostly plants with meats used sparingly. But no one likes the idea of a plant-based diet so people who embrace it -vegetarians and vegans- get lumped into this category of, “that’s crazy!” Which really means, “I would never do that so anyone who does must be crazy!”

It’s not crazy to eat only plants and with a little planning, you don’t need supplements-it’s nutritionally complete. B12 is available from nutritional yeast and many vegan friendly foods are fortified with it. Vegetarians who eat dairy have no issue. It’s funny to me that people scoff at a vegan diet because of something dumb like “you need supplements,” while their own diets are leading them to heart-disease, diabetes, stroke, etc. Vegans are “sickly looking?” Why, because they are at a healthy weight?

People are funny.

People are funny when they make stuff up.

I said my two vegan friends are sickly looking, not all vegans. I believe I also mentioned top vegan athletes being a thing.

And no they are not at a healthy weight, unless you think 6' 2" and 120 pounds can be healthy for a man. His wife looks like Skeletor. It's gross. She's really into veganism so I assume she does her research but maybe not.

No they do not look healthy. He won't even wear shorts in public because he's so thin. He loves meat, he just doesn't eat it around her. Great marriage they have but that's another matter.

The only time veganism affected me personally was when she'd be at barbecues complaining to everyone about meat. Other than that I couldn't care less.
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Old 10th September 2019, 03:22 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
And no they are not at a healthy weight, unless you think 6' 2" and 120 pounds can be healthy for a man. His wife looks like Skeletor.
You can say what you like about vegans, but don't go invoking Skeletor incorrectly. Skeletor is built. He has a skull face but the rest of him is slabs of prime muscle sheathed in skintight purple. Skeletor is hot beefcake ninety-nine percent of gymrats would envy, and you should be ashamed of maligning his kickass godlike physique.
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Old 10th September 2019, 07:44 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You can say what you like about vegans, but don't go invoking Skeletor incorrectly. Skeletor is built. He has a skull face but the rest of him is slabs of prime muscle sheathed in skintight purple. Skeletor is hot beefcake ninety-nine percent of gymrats would envy, and you should be ashamed of maligning his kickass godlike physique.

Indeed.


http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post12809646
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Old 10th September 2019, 08:10 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
My understanding is that humans grew their brains due to the nutrient-density of animal protein. Also the advent of agriculture led to shorter and less healthy people who were prone to rotting teeth and disease (cf the ancient Egyptians). Also the human body is obviously not adapted to veganism, because it requires that you take supplements to make it work over time. Otherwise you do not thrive.

I don't have an argument with vegetarians, who don't eat meat, but who eat eggs, cheese, etc. I think veganism is an abomination, though.
Why is it an abomination? I've eaten a vegan diet for 24 years and feel great, no health problems, look good, succesful athlete. What's the problem? I like my food, I don't bother other people about their diets and don't understand why you consider a purely plant based diet an abomination.
Also I've literally never taken supplements, so your claim that supplements are necessary is simply not factual. I have had blood work done by medical doctors several times and have always been told that there is no indication of any deficiency or cause for concern, including with regard to B12 (but what's the big deal about using a B12 patch a few times a month, it'd be good for everyone, meat eaters included, because b12 deficiency is frequently found in meat eaters as well as vegans). My life insurance company loves me.

The claim that the human brain grew from animal protein is highly speculative and I find the claims that it was due to cooked tubers much more credible.

Also, saying that a couple of vegans are sickly looking is dumb. I know a few meat eaters that look sickly, so what? I know vegans and meat eaters who look great, vegans and meat eaters who look average, vegans and meat eaters who are overweight, and everything in between.

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Old 10th September 2019, 08:11 PM   #59
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Why do most people find us vegans so annoying?

Quote:
Maybe it’s because we remind you of the mental gymnastics required to say you care about animal welfare and the climate while you keep eating meat
Um... no, I'm pretty sure it's your air of smug self-righteousness.
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Old 10th September 2019, 08:24 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Why do most people find us vegans so annoying?



Um... no, I'm pretty sure it's your air of smug self-righteousness.
This is dumb too, probably only 5-10% of vegans go around proselytizing, the rest of them you never even know about.
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Old 10th September 2019, 08:41 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
This is dumb too, probably only 5-10% of vegans go around proselytizing, the rest of them you never even know about.
Indeed, I know some perfectly nice vegans. But those vegans that everyone hates - like the author of this article, for example - are hated not because they cause cognitive dissonance in we omnivores, as claimed in the article, but because of their attitude.
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Old 10th September 2019, 11:00 PM   #62
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Vegan products sold in supermarkets loaded with unhealthy amounts of salt

Quote:
Some meat-free alternatives contain up to half-a-day’s worth in a single serve, with ‘facon’, felafel and sausages the worst offenders

When reaching for that meat-free alternative in the supermarket, you would be forgiven for thinking you were picking a healthier option.

But a new study has found popular vegan products in Australian supermarkets are packed with salt, with some containing up to half-a-day’s worth in a single serve.

Nutrition experts are now urging the industry to set salt targets for meat-free meals.

Medical researchers at the George Institute for Global Health surveyed 190 products in 2019, exposing their salt contents in a report jointly published by the Heart Foundation on Wednesday.

Falafel and meat-free sausages came second and third for the highest average amounts of salt.

One vegan pie tested contained an eye-watering half of the daily recommended salt intake.
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:06 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
At 6'2" and 160 lbs, you might have been "fit" (as in, you could run forever), but I guarantee you were weak. And I say that as someone who used to be 6'4" and 160 lbs. I was worse off in that I was both weak and out of shape. I couldn't run a marathon even now, but at 200 lbs I'm a hell of a lot stronger than I used to be.
I guess it depends on what you mean by weak.

I'm functionally strong enough for day-to-day life, including lifting the 60kg+ hotplate when I service the AGA, carrying 10x50kg sacks of smokeless fuel the 100m from where they were left by the delivery driver to the garage, carrying a 41 litre firkin of beer 50m from the car to the house, sawing up and splitting by hand 2-3 cubic metres of hardwood every year and so on......

I'm certainly stronger now than I was as an unfit 225lb twentysomething.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
When you're young, you can get away with being weak if your cardiovascular is good, because even a weak young person can still move their own body around plenty, even if they can't lift or push much. But as you get old, the limiting factor for most activities stops being cardiovascular fitness but simple muscular strength. The problem is that it's very hard to put on muscle when you're old. It's much easier to put it on when you're younger and then keep it (or more precisely, slow its loss). I'm not talking about getting into the "obese" BMI via muscles (though people certainly can do that), but 160 lbs really is skinny, and you really will be weak at that weight.

Question: do you have back pain?
No, I do not have any back pain. I used to when I was 225lb, but I don't any more.

Muscular strength used to be a major limiting factor when I went alpine skiing. After a couple of hours of enthusiastic skiing my legs would be completely shot. These days I can happily ski all day without being anywhere near as tired.
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:07 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
How do they compare to their non-vegan competitors ?
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:52 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
How do they compare to their non-vegan competitors ?
I don't know of any non-vegan pies that contain half the daily salt allowance, if that's what you're asking. Highly processed food of all kinds is indeed pretty high in sodium, but if you're comparing a vegan sausage with a non-vegan sausage, the sodium level will be considerably lower in the non-vegan one.

I don't have figures for this, though, so take my words with a grain of... um...
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:04 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
How do they compare to their non-vegan competitors ?
The usual "between the lines" message in these types of articles is "ha ha you said vegan was healthy but look...".
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:10 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
People are funny when they make stuff up.

I said my two vegan friends are sickly looking, not all vegans. I believe I also mentioned top vegan athletes being a thing.

And no they are not at a healthy weight, unless you think 6' 2" and 120 pounds can be healthy for a man. His wife looks like Skeletor. It's gross. She's really into veganism so I assume she does her research but maybe not.

No they do not look healthy. He won't even wear shorts in public because he's so thin. He loves meat, he just doesn't eat it around her. Great marriage they have but that's another matter.

The only time veganism affected me personally was when she'd be at barbecues complaining to everyone about meat. Other than that I couldn't care less.
Your anecdote was tainted on arrival. It merits no weight due to dubious facts and your obvious bias.
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:37 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The usual "between the lines" message in these types of articles is "ha ha you said vegan was healthy but look...".
Oreos and soda pop are vegan. There's a healthy lifestyle diet right there.

Veganism is only partly about the diet anyway -- mostly it's ethical, at least when it comes to cute animal faces. The lives of bugs, rodents, and such destroyed by agriculture apparently don't matter enough to think about.
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:49 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I guess it depends on what you mean by weak.
Less than body weight squat (meaning, squatting with an external load equal to your body weight) is a decent metric for weak for non-elderly adults. Most people fail it, but it's pretty easy to achieve with some training.

Quote:
I'm functionally strong enough for day-to-day life, including lifting the 60kg+ hotplate when I service the AGA, carrying 10x50kg sacks of smokeless fuel the 100m from where they were left by the delivery driver to the garage, carrying a 41 litre firkin of beer 50m from the car to the house, sawing up and splitting by hand 2-3 cubic metres of hardwood every year and so on......

I'm certainly stronger now than I was as an unfit 225lb twentysomething.
If you lost 65 lbs without losing significant strength, then you must have had a very high body fat percentage. That's definitely bad for you, and dropping it is definitely an improvement. Congratulations, that's not easy to accomplish.

Quote:
No, I do not have any back pain. I used to when I was 225lb, but I don't any more.
Lugging around that much weight without enough muscle will do it. A lot of skinny tall people have back problems too, though, and dropping weight is obviously not going to help them. In those cases, adding muscle is usually the best fix.

Quote:
Muscular strength used to be a major limiting factor when I went alpine skiing. After a couple of hours of enthusiastic skiing my legs would be completely shot. These days I can happily ski all day without being anywhere near as tired.
No surprise if you dropped 65 lbs of mostly fat.
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:50 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Oreos and soda pop are vegan. There's a healthy lifestyle diet right there.
Are you sure about Oreos? I thought the white stuff was made from boiled lard or pulverized beef tendons or emulsified pork offal or something horrible.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:10 AM   #71
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Not anymore, according to Wikipedia:

Quote:
In the early 1990s, health concerns prompted Nabisco to replace the lard in the crème filling with partially hydrogenated vegetable oil. Oreo cookies are popular with people that have certain dietary restrictions, such as vegans, as the crème filling does not use any animal products.
Oreo

However, the trans fats are probably much more unhealthy than the ingredients you mentioned.
But the British version should probably be avoided by vegans:

Quote:
Additionally, as the whey powder was sourced from cheese made with calf rennet, the British version was also unsuitable for vegetarians.

I had to look up rennet, and it looks delicious:

Quote:
Rennet /ˈrɛnɪt/ is a complex set of enzymes produced in the stomachs of ruminant mammals.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:13 AM   #72
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Well, I just looked at a pack of Oreos and the listed ingredients just said "Sugar, flour, horrors unmentionable" and all the rest was in sinister runes that glowed with eerie red light. I guess that means they're okay to eat.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:15 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
However, the trans fats are probably much more unhealthy than the ingredients you mentioned.

That same article goes on to say they eliminated the hydrogenated vegetable oils in 2006.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:22 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Well, I just looked at a pack of Oreos and the listed ingredients just said "Sugar, flour, horrors unmentionable" and all the rest was in sinister runes that glowed with eerie red light. I guess that means they're okay to eat.
Flour has gluten, so no.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:34 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Flour has gluten, so no.
I've been hopelessly confused about what gluten is ever since I read the Not Always Right about the Victoria's Secret customer who was looking for a gluten-free brassiere.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:50 AM   #76
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From my 20's into late 30's my weight was in the skinny range and my diet was pretty horrible. Not having much money does that. After I porked up to 200 lbs and finishing a day of work with energy became a reality. I have been holding at that more or less the last 15 years and probably can do more at 50 than I could at 30.

I once tried a veggie type diet to try to stretch the money into more possible food, ended up in a Dr. Pepper and cheap cookies diet just to complete a day of work. It wasn't long I was back on real proteins and fast food. Ended up costing less too.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:51 AM   #77
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I think it's more common for meat-eaters to cast judgment in a vegan discussion than it is for vegans to cast judgment in a meat-eating discussion.
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Old 11th September 2019, 08:07 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It’s funny how humans are with accepting facts that are contrary to how they want things to be. There is so much evidence that a primarily plant-based diet is the healthiest diet.
This thread isn't about a primarily plant-based diet, it's about an entirely plant-based diet.
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Old 11th September 2019, 08:27 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It’s funny how humans are with accepting facts that are contrary to how they want things to be. There is so much evidence that a primarily plant-based diet is the healthiest diet. Look at the Mediterranean diet -it’s mostly plants with meats used sparingly. But no one likes the idea of a plant-based diet so people who embrace it -vegetarians and vegans- get lumped into this category of, “that’s crazy!” Which really means, “I would never do that so anyone who does must be crazy!”

It’s not crazy to eat only plants and with a little planning, you don’t need supplements-it’s nutritionally complete. B12 is available from nutritional yeast and many vegan friendly foods are fortified with it. Vegetarians who eat dairy have no issue. It’s funny to me that people scoff at a vegan diet because of something dumb like “you need supplements,” while their own diets are leading them to heart-disease, diabetes, stroke, etc. Vegans are “sickly looking?” Why, because they are at a healthy weight?

People are funny.
People are funny.

"Nutritional yeast" oh joy. When fortified in a lab/factory somewhere, it can replace some of the vitamins found in actual food. What's not to love?

My wife is mainly vegetarian but includes fish/seafood. This works great for me because it means I'm eating less meat than I normally would were I responsible for preparing the food.

I don't think it's crazy at all impose certain dietary restrictions for health or moral reasons. I do find it a bit weird when food has to be engineered to either taste good, be of palatable texture, or contain proper nutrition.
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Old 11th September 2019, 08:48 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I've been hopelessly confused about what gluten is ever since I read the Not Always Right about the Victoria's Secret customer who was looking for a gluten-free brassiere.
You aren't the only one.
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