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Old 10th September 2019, 08:48 AM   #1
wasapi
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Vaping issues.

It seems that recently, every day I am hearing/reading about how no one should vape, because it is believed to have caused serious respiratory illnesses.
Though it seems the main issue is kids, who like the flavored vapors. However, until the health risks are better known, they call upon everyone to quit.

For me, that's not going to be happening. When I quit smoking cigarettes about 9 years ago, I did it with vaping. It has been great for me. Inexpensive (compared with cigs), no ash, no smell, no mess. When I smoked, I made myself do it outside. Now, in the comfort of my house or car, I smoke.

It is interesting. I have high blood pressure, but proved to my doctor that vaping actually lowers it.

Does anyone have thoughts on this? Thanks.
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Old 10th September 2019, 08:53 AM   #2
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I don't know the statistics or the clinical justification behind it, but three years ago my team was building EMR modules and we were asked to add fields for "vaping related fungal infection". Like the ICD10 only things that have happened before get added, so it must at least be a possible outcome that occurs enough to justify calling out in EMR.

There's nothing inherently worse about fungal vs bacterial infections but for some reason the former just seems ickier.
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Old 10th September 2019, 08:56 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
It seems that recently, every day I am hearing/reading about how no one should vape, because it is believed to have caused serious respiratory illnesses.
But ask a doctor if a vaper is better off smoking cigarettes instead and all you get is a deafening silence.
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Old 10th September 2019, 08:58 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
But ask a doctor if a vaper is better off smoking cigarettes instead and all you get is a deafening silence.
You can never make a doctor happy. They tell you your blood pressure is high, work on that for six months, get it down and what do they say? That you need to lose weight. Lose weight and what do they say? That mole looks suspicious. Bastards.
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Old 10th September 2019, 08:59 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
It seems that recently, every day I am hearing/reading about how no one should vape, because it is believed to have caused serious respiratory illnesses.
Though it seems the main issue is kids, who like the flavored vapors. However, until the health risks are better known, they call upon everyone to quit.

For me, that's not going to be happening. When I quit smoking cigarettes about 9 years ago, I did it with vaping. It has been great for me. Inexpensive (compared with cigs), no ash, no smell, no mess. When I smoked, I made myself do it outside. Now, in the comfort of my house or car, I smoke.

It is interesting. I have high blood pressure, but proved to my doctor that vaping actually lowers it.

Does anyone have thoughts on this? Thanks.
My understanding:

Using vaping as a means to quit smoking is good. Vaping is far less bad than smoking for your health.

Vaping may not be harmless, but has been perceived as being harmless. That creates a draw for younger people, who are not known to be full of wisdom or moderation. So some vape too much, even if it is just flavored mist with no nicotine or THC.

Others think of vaping as harmless and end up addicted to nicotine, people who would have not otherwise used nicotine, who would have not taken up smoking in this day and age. This may be a new way to draw in nicotine sales now that younger generations smoke less than older generations.

Others vape pot products, although many of them might have used pot anyway - hard to tell.

The current thing seems to be that there may be some off-market vaping products in use, along with branded and regulated things that may contain impurities. Or that some of the allowed ingredients have health impacts not previously appreciated.

But in your case, as a substitute for smoking, you are probably taking the better option.
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Old 10th September 2019, 08:59 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
When I quit smoking cigarettes about 9 years ago, I did it with vaping. It has been great for me. Inexpensive (compared with cigs), no ash, no smell, no mess.
No smell?? Smells plenty to me.
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Old 10th September 2019, 09:02 AM   #7
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It always concerned me that vaping used common cooking ingredients (vegetable glycerine and flavorings) but that these were never approved or studied for concentrated inhalation. We just don't know what they might do, long term.
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Old 10th September 2019, 09:04 AM   #8
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Here's the thing.

When we talk "Vaping" are we talking mass produced e-cigs you can get over the counter at any gas station in America (Juuls, Blus, etc) or that huge "Vaping" subculture of custom vaping hardware and "juice" mixes?
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Old 10th September 2019, 09:05 AM   #9
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It always seemed suspect to me coating your lungs in strange liquids could be a good thing, and the thick clouds many love seem like it could be very excessive and lead to problems.

Give it 100 years and we will have better ideas on what it does.
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Old 10th September 2019, 09:07 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Here's the thing.

When we talk "Vaping" are we talking mass produced e-cigs you can get over the counter at any gas station in America (Juuls, Blus, etc) or that huge "Vaping" subculture of custom vaping hardware and "juice" mixes?
Let's just call it what it is: smoking.
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Old 10th September 2019, 09:34 AM   #11
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Hello fellow kids! I just smoked a big bowl of gooseberry vapes!
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Old 10th September 2019, 10:03 AM   #12
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I'm currently smoking a big bowl of tobacco flavored nicquid.

I didn't quit smoking; I just switched to vaping. If I quit vaping, I'll be right back to smoking cigarettes -probably within a couple of hours.

I didn't choose vaping because of any delusion that it's entirely harmless or risk free; but rather because I don't think it can possibly be as bad for me as smoking. After over 30 years of a pack a day -with very few negative effects- I figured I was pushin' my luck and it was time for a change.

My every effort to quit has failed, and each time I failed I've been left with vertigo, anxiety and other souvenirs that have made life rougher for years. It was time to try something else, and I made the switch to vaping in a single day -with no setbacks in almost two years.
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Old 10th September 2019, 10:25 AM   #13
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Back in 2008 I just upped and quit my 60 per day habit. Best thing I ever done and allows me to judge the weaker vape hounds. I pity you all.
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Old 10th September 2019, 10:36 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I'm currently smoking a big bowl of tobacco flavored nicquid.

I didn't quit smoking; I just switched to vaping. If I quit vaping, I'll be right back to smoking cigarettes -probably within a couple of hours.

I didn't choose vaping because of any delusion that it's entirely harmless or risk free; but rather because I don't think it can possibly be as bad for me as smoking. .
Seconded. Go to any skatepark and watch the performance of smokers vs vapers...and we're talking about otherwise young and healthy kids here. I don't know the rest of the health risks or whatever, but the difference in obvious symptoms isn't even remotely up for debate
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Old 10th September 2019, 11:14 AM   #15
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I don't smoke or vape but have concerns for a couple of friends that do. They only vape pot - just actual leaf, not concentrate, juice, flavors etc. I'm not entirely clear on the process but as far as I can tell it's not much different than smoking a pipe, just at a lower temp so most of the nastier stuff that makes up the smoke is not present. Probably not good for you but it's hard to imagine that could be worse than smoking it. None of the articles I've seen address that kind of vapeing, they all talk about the pre-made concentrates, glycerin, flavors, processing chemicals, etc.
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Old 10th September 2019, 12:06 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No smell?? Smells plenty to me.
Are you referring to flavored vape liquid? My regular vaping devise, according to others, has no odor, but I never use flavored.
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Old 10th September 2019, 12:19 PM   #17
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I was under the impression that most of the vaping issues being reported in the news currently were due to marijuana vaping because of the vitamin B in the product.
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Old 10th September 2019, 12:21 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I was under the impression that most of the vaping issues being reported in the news currently were due to marijuana vaping because of the vitamin B in the product.
It's vitamin E acetate and it's suspected to be the problem, though I don't think the scientists have enough data to be certain.

Last edited by Babbylonian; 10th September 2019 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 10th September 2019, 12:26 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You can never make a doctor happy. They tell you your blood pressure is high, work on that for six months, get it down and what do they say? That you need to lose weight. Lose weight and what do they say? That mole looks suspicious. Bastards.

Meanwhile, I’ve got my dentist telling me to eat less fruit and more cheese, and my doctor telling me to eat less cheese and more fruit.
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Old 10th September 2019, 12:32 PM   #20
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That has been my understanding as well, that it has been the marijuana vaping that is most suspect.
When they talk about the teen "epidemic" of vaping, they never seem to put in in any sort of context compared with smoking. Are the numbers of teens that take up vaping comparable to teens whom took up smoking in previous generations? Less? More?

I used vaping to quit smoking and then I quit vaping so I'm a big fan because I saw it as a tool for me to quit altogether and for people who don't quit, it is better vice than smoking.
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Old 10th September 2019, 12:39 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
It's vitamin E acetate and it's suspected to be the problem, though I don't think the scientists have enough data to be certain.
Ah ok, thanks for the correction.
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Old 10th September 2019, 12:40 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
That has been my understanding as well, that it has been the marijuana vaping that is most suspect.
.
That's what I'm finding confusing. The only people I know that do it are using just marijuana, ground up and put in the machine. The headlines all just mention marijuana but don't make any distinction between processed products and just plane weed.
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Old 10th September 2019, 12:46 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Finster View Post
That's what I'm finding confusing. The only people I know that do it are using just marijuana, ground up and put in the machine. The headlines all just mention marijuana but don't make any distinction between processed products and just plane weed.
I don't think they really need to since most articles I've read have at least mentioned additives. Legal marijuana users are supposed to be adults and ought to be able to figure out that their Volcano (I use a small dry herb pen but the Volcano is always awesome to mention) isn't adding extra chemicals to their herb, and they ought to be capable of differentiating between concentrates based on their listed ingredients.
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Old 10th September 2019, 12:54 PM   #24
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I've been an herb fan for 25 years. Never got into the vape pens because I'm a fan of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I'm also not a cigarette smoker so I don't have that compounding the herb problem.
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Old 10th September 2019, 02:21 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Let's just call it what it is: smoking.

It isn't smoking though. A properly designed and used vaporizer will create zero smoke. It's vapor. No ash, no burning of plant material. There should also be zero carbon monoxide in the vapor, though if the vape is too hot it may create smoke, especially vapes that are for use with plant matter.

Cigs used to be cool. James Dean with a vape would just be lame.

I'm with Plague on this - the old fashioned way is the best.

Then again, some years ago I used a vape pen with a weed concentrate in the restroom of a nice restaurant. My parents were at the table and nobody ever knew or smelled it on me. Vapes have a place in the world
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Old 10th September 2019, 05:08 PM   #26
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10 years with 6 or so DIYing my juices, my concerns are pretty much the same as they've always been, though with little CDC etc. info to go on this past month or two... well.

Nic inhalation is safe in moderation (not concerned about addiction either, I equate it to caffeine, more or less).
PG (propylene glycol) is so common as an inhaler medium, I think we're okay there as well.
VG (veg glycerine) is likely in the same category.
Flavors. Ahh... the really big question mark. Food grade PG based flavors* for baking and candy making are perfectly safe for ingestion. But inhalation? Damned if we know and while I don't think this is an indication, long term effects may be another decade or two before we do know. It's really my only concern.
* DO NOT EVER use oil based flavors, like LorAnne's oil based varieties for example (there are plenty of others... shop wisely. Really.) That way lies the lipid pneumonia.
DO NOT overuse (any?) rich, tasty buttery flavors heavy in dicetal (sp?) like most of the bakery flavors. Is "popcorn lung" even possible from normal vape use, even with the scare stories? Don't know, but that's the avenue.
"Nic Salts". This became a thing just after I stopped buying three years ago (I'm pretty stocked up**) so I don't know much about it, never tried it, but I think Juul is/was an early major proponent. Relevant?
"Oil" bases and CBD/THC products. I have a damn viscous CBD liquid that I'll have to investigate before I vape any more of it. But it's not as effective as I had hoped (blown disc pain) so I'll probably either toss it or try ingesting it (damn thing says "Do Not Eat"... screw you. )
Black/Grey Market Juul pods and/or CBD/THC. Yeah... don't, just don't.
And the Vitamin E thing is just bizarre. Bastards.


** I have enough 10 and 20% nic in my freezer to pull a Jonestown... if I could get everyone to drink their LDL50 x2 cocktail at once.
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Old 10th September 2019, 05:18 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
It isn't smoking though. A properly designed and used vaporizer will create zero smoke. It's vapor. No ash, no burning of plant material. There should also be zero carbon monoxide in the vapor, though if the vape is too hot it may create smoke, especially vapes that are for use with plant matter.

Cigs used to be cool. James Dean with a vape would just be lame.

I'm with Plague on this - the old fashioned way is the best.

Then again, some years ago I used a vape pen with a weed concentrate in the restroom of a nice restaurant. My parents were at the table and nobody ever knew or smelled it on me. Vapes have a place in the world
Exactly. A good vaporizer set at the right temperature will vaporize the THC at a temperature that is below the vaporizing/burning temperature of the less desirable components of the bud. There will be some odor but it dissipates quickly.
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Old 10th September 2019, 05:21 PM   #28
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Oh and... the vast, vast majority of chemical "nasties" found in (big tobacc funded) "lab studies" come from pumping stupid levels of wattage through tiny coils... you could not take one of those "drags" without coughing up a lung. They actually do "smoke", that's how poorly they run those tests.
That said... keep your coils unburnt, and your wicks fresh. Quickest way to ruin a whole tankful of juice is one good burnt or dry hit. That taste NEVER goes away.
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Old 10th September 2019, 05:45 PM   #29
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Another ETA.
I haven't followed this story/issue very much, so I did just check my news reader for my more or less "weekly" look.
Rolling Stone (I think it was) tells NY state (and others?) are looking into the Vitamin E thickener producers (double bastards).
I get that they needed to thicken up the liquid, why not stick with the VG we use in vapes?

The damn bulk Vit E product says "keep away from heat, DO NOT ingest or inhale the smoke, fumes or vapor".

Will this be the smoking gun?

(no pun intended... I can't even joke about lipid pneumonitis)
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Old 10th September 2019, 08:00 PM   #30
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There's no way that vaping isn't bad for the lungs. I smoked a pack a day of unfiltered cigarettes for 5 years from the age of 19-24, quit in 2001 and didn't touch them for 18 years. Last year a friend was vaping and I decided to try it because it was supposed to be so much better than smoking. I only took a few puffs, but my lungs hurt for 2 days afterwards and my aerobic capacity was absolutely impaired (I'm a runner). Based on my experience, I find it hard to believe that vaping isn't doing serious damage to the respiratory system. I'll certainly never try it again. Is it less harmful than cigarettes? Maybe or even probably, but I think it's too early to say.
Also, I'm certain my experience wasn't some kind of placebo affect, because I expected nothing to happen, being as it was supposed to just be a harmless vapor. I was very surprised at the discomfort that resulted. Felt worse than anything I'd experienced from cigarettes.

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Old 10th September 2019, 08:29 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
.....
For me, that's not going to be happening. When I quit smoking cigarettes about 9 years ago, I did it with vaping.
....
So why do you need to "vape" (is that really a word?). Millions of people have learned to stop smoking without taking up vaping. Vaping might be healthier than smoking, but it can't be healthier than not doing either.
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Old 10th September 2019, 08:30 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
So why do you need to "vape" (is that really a word?). Millions of people have learned to stop smoking without taking up vaping. Vaping might be healthier than smoking, but it can't be healthier than not doing either.
Because it's not actually quitting, so it's a lot easier.
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Old 10th September 2019, 08:58 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
So why do you need to "vape" (is that really a word?). Millions of people have learned to stop smoking without taking up vaping. Vaping might be healthier than smoking, but it can't be healthier than not doing either.
I'm not denying that I enjoy it. It is a small amount of money to spend on a vice, and since I don't spend money on any other vice, I justify it. It helps me relax, and as I mentioned, I already proved to my doctor that it helps control high blood pressure.
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Old 10th September 2019, 11:47 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
There's no way that vaping isn't bad for the lungs. I smoked a pack a day of unfiltered cigarettes for 5 years from the age of 19-24, quit in 2001 and didn't touch them for 18 years. Last year a friend was vaping and I decided to try it because it was supposed to be so much better than smoking. I only took a few puffs, but my lungs hurt for 2 days afterwards and my aerobic capacity was absolutely impaired (I'm a runner). Based on my experience, I find it hard to believe that vaping isn't doing serious damage to the respiratory system. I'll certainly never try it again. Is it less harmful than cigarettes? Maybe or even probably, but I think it's too early to say.
Also, I'm certain my experience wasn't some kind of placebo affect, because I expected nothing to happen, being as it was supposed to just be a harmless vapor. I was very surprised at the discomfort that resulted. Felt worse than anything I'd experienced from cigarettes.
Are you arguing that cigarettes are better than vaping?
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:33 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
For me, that's not going to be happening. When I quit smoking cigarettes about 9 years ago, I did it with vaping. It has been great for me. Inexpensive (compared with cigs), no ash, no smell, no mess. When I smoked, I made myself do it outside. Now, in the comfort of my house or car, I smoke.
If you still vape you didn't quit. You just replaced a habit with known detrimental health effects with a habit where the health consequences are yet unknown.

It even sounds like you might vape more than you smoked now you don't have to go outside.

"It seems to be the kids vaping weird things" is only a bad excuse.
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:35 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No smell?? Smells plenty to me.
It reeks. I hate standing downwind from a vaper just about as much as I hate standing downwind from a smoker.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:16 AM   #37
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I've always taken the smell complaint to be about the set in smell that comes from cigs versus the less lasting smell of vapes.
The evidence seems to be pointing away from vaping nicotine and towards the THC cartridges, specially the black market ones.

In my personal case I vape because otherwise I was going to smoke. I've done both, I feel healthier vaping, but I also recognize nicotine is not harmless.
I have a mental disorder but can't afford the time or money to get a treatment regime, and I found it alleviates, but does not get ride of, the symptoms.
Trying to quit has lead to major depressive episodes and lower dose juices have me in the fog I was in when I first started vaping.
I wouldn't recommend it, but it works.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:35 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Let's just call it what it is: smoking.
Yes. Except it literally is not smoking.

Also - a lot of people saying its not really quitting and generally hating on vaping.

It is quitting. If you no longer smoke then you have quit smoking. You might not have broken your nicotine addiction, but the same goes for any other form of Nicotine Replacement Therapy, and strangely enough, you don't get people insisting that people on patches/gum/lozenges and so on "haven't really quit"

Is vaping healthy? Of course not. But even in the worst case scenario, whatever the unknown impact of vaping might turn out to be is certain to be FAAAAAR less than the impact of smoking. Smoking kills almost 1 person an hour in the UK alone.

Globally, smoking kills around 8 million people a year.

Vaping has been around for well over a decade without (so far as I'm aware) a single attributable death.

And you can stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

It seems to me to be a strange form of reflexive puritanism that people see other people doing something that they don't do, and are determined to jump all over it and make they stop doing the thing. Lord forbid anyone should enjoy anything.

Last edited by Hubert Cumberdale; 11th September 2019 at 03:14 AM.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:19 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Cigs used to be cool. James Dean with a vape would just be lame.

I'm with Plague on this - the old fashioned way is the best.
Better to use a straw or toothpick. It's also badass in a way, but won't kill you.





...unless they're made of Plutonium.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:20 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
Yes. Except it literally is not smoking.
Different word, different form, same addiction, same action.
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